TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Quran-Tafseer => Topic started by: Rationalist on June 04, 2018, 05:59:14 AM
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Okay so I looked the verse of Mukahamath and Mutashabihat, and for the Mutashabihat it says only Allah (swt) alone knows it. However, the 12er Shia appear and still say the Imams know it. If this is the case why doesn't the Quran just say the 12 Imams know it as well?
هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}
[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
[Pickthal 3:7] He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
[Yusufali 3:7] He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 3:7]
As explained in the commentary of verse 2 of al Baqarah the Quran was revealed to the Holy Prophet. He knew the true meaning of every verse, or after him, it was Ali who claimed that he knew when, why and for whom every verse of the Quran was revealed.
Most of the verses of the Quran are clear and decisive. There is no ambiguity in them. They are known as the muhkamat. They relate to the fundamentals of the faith, such as the oneness of Allah, the directions pertaining to the practice of the faith and the laws governing the day to day life of the faithful. They can neither be changed nor modified. Any man of average intelligence can understand and follow them.
The mutashabihat are the verses which have been composed in subtle and profound diction and style. They carry implications other than the literal meanings, and therefore, are capable of giving different significations, like "The hand of Allah is on their hands" in verse 10 of al Fat-h. Verse 1 of al Hud says that the Quran is a book of clear and decisive verses. Verse 23 of al Zumar says that Allah has sent down the very best discourse as a book conformable in its repetition and consimilarity. Only the men of understanding who possess a higher level of intelligence contemplate and find out the meaningful implications of such verses. Average and ordinary minds cannot figure out or have knowledge of the real purport of such verses, and if they try this on their own, they are bewildered and go astray. As mentioned in the commentary of verse 1 of al Baqarah, the huruf muqatta-at are also meaningful but their subtle and profound meanings are known to Allah and His chosen representatives (Muhammad and ali Muhammad) only. Therefore, those who know the true purport of these symbolic letters occupy the highest position in the domain of knowledge and wisdom. In the well-known tradition of thaqalayn the Holy Prophet has clearly made known the fact that whoso remains attached with the Quran and his Ahl ul Bayt, after his departure from this world, will never go astray, because these two weighty authorities will never be separated from each other, and joined together, they shall meet the Holy Prophet at the spring of Kawthar; and "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate", said the Holy Prophet in order to guide the faithfuls so that, to have knowledge of the Quran, they must refer to Ali and his Ahl ul Bayt, who alone know the true meanings of the mutashabihat.
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Okay so I looked the verse of Mukahamath and Mutashabihat, and for the Mutashabihat it says only Allah (swt) alone knows it. However, the 12er Shia appear and still say the Imams know it. If this is the case why doesn't the Quran just say the 12 Imams know it as well?
The issue is not only some Mutashaabihat here and there. Rather, the Twelvers' problem is subverting even the Muhkamaat to the supposed Mutashaabih sayings of their "Imams", meaning turning everything upside down and then blaming the Ummah of Islam for not accepting these "Imamical Inventions".
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When king Soloman asked for the throne of Queen Bilqees to be brought before him then a man stepped forward and claimed he could get the throne quicker than a blink of an eye, who was this man. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification why can't they?
The question is 'did or didn't they' this can be discussed. But discussing the possibility that one can't have or be given the ability is surprising when we have an individual who brought the throne quicker than a blink of an eye. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability.
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When king Soloman asked for the throne of Queen Bilqees to be brought before him then a man stepped forward and claimed he could get the throne quicker than a blink of an eye, who was this man. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification why can't they?
The question is 'did or didn't they' this can be discussed. But discussing the possibility that one can't have or be given the ability is surprising when we have an individual who brought the throne quicker than a blink of an eye. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability.
1. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification why can't they?"
Maybe being purified to the state of purification doesn't give you that ability - maybe they are mutually exclusive, the verses doesn't say that the man who could bring the throne was purified to the state of purification.
2. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability
According to ibn Kathir his name was Asif ibn Barkhiya and he was a scribe of Sulayman (as). He has such an ability because Allah gave it to him - did Allah give this ability (or any other) to the 12 Imams? Where is the proof?
3. Muhkamat and Mutashabihat verses are categorizations in the verses of the quran with respect to meaning, the muhkamat are singular in meaning and the mutashbihat verses have a multiplicity of meaning - if the meaning resides with the Imam, i.e they know the "true" meaning, then by necessity the verse would no longer be mutashabihat as you would have restricted the verse to one meaning.
I hope this helps.
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When king Soloman asked for the throne of Queen Bilqees to be brought before him then a man stepped forward and claimed he could get the throne quicker than a blink of an eye, who was this man. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification why can't they?
The question is 'did or didn't they' this can be discussed. But discussing the possibility that one can't have or be given the ability is surprising when we have an individual who brought the throne quicker than a blink of an eye. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability.
Did Khomeini or Khoei or Tusi or Mufeed or Najashi or Sadooq or Kulayni, had the knowledge of book of Allah? If yes, then why weren't they able to do what Asif the companion of Sulaiman(as) was able to do? Isn't Quran the best book? Aren't Ummatis of Prophet(saws) the best of Ummah, then why? Try to figure it out. You'll get the answer to your foolish questions.
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When king Soloman asked for the throne of Queen Bilqees to be brought before him then a man stepped forward and claimed he could get the throne quicker than a blink of an eye, who was this man. And if he can posses such ability then those who were purified to the state of purification why can't they?
The question is 'did or didn't they' this can be discussed. But discussing the possibility that one can't have or be given the ability is surprising when we have an individual who brought the throne quicker than a blink of an eye. Who was this man? Was he a Messenger/Prophet? He possessed such ability.
The worst qiyas I have ever seen. Don't 12er Shia believe Abu Hanifah was cursed by the 6th Imam for using qiyas? Was it because he was a Bakri this curse applies? Seriously how does this answer the question?
By the way Agha Pooya believed that man who moved the throne was Imam Ali. Supposedly the Imam travelled back in time to help Soloman.
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The worst qiyas I have ever seen. Don't 12er Shia believe Abu Hanifah was cursed by the 6th Imam for using qiyas? Was it because he was a Bakri this curse applies? Seriously how does this answer the question?
By the way Agha Pooya believed that man who moved the throne was Imam Ali. Supposedly the Imam travelled back in time to help Soloman.
You've completely gone off topic there. This is the usual technique used to derail threads.
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Your qiyas is off topic. Allah says in the Quran that only he knows the exact meaning of the Mutashabihat verses, and your qiyas comes in and does disservice. In fact you used the movement of the throne to prove your case. 11 of the Imams in your beliefs did taqiyyah. Were they able to move the thrones of the Ummawis and the Abbasids? No! So how is your reply even relevant?
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Your qiyas is off topic. Allah says in the Quran that only he knows the exact meaning of the Mutashabihat verses, and your qiyas comes in and does disservice. In fact you used the movement of the throne to prove your case. 11 of the Imams in your beliefs did taqiyyah. Were they able to move the thrones of the Ummawis and the Abbasids? No! So how is your reply even relevant?
Lets leave my qiyas on possibility out of it for a moment. This is what was said in your introductory post;
"but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge"
And in your present post you say;
"Allah says in the Quran that only he knows the exact meaning of the Mutashabihat verses"
So what happened to "and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge" ?
Is it just and only Allah who knows? Or and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge along with Allah?
Take a look and examine the following;
Ayah 7 in Surat Al-^Imran means:
"No one knows their true meanings except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter say, "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord" and none will understand the message except men of comprehension."
You'll find that it's not only and just Allah but also 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge/men of comprehension. And we strongly believe that those who are firmly rooted in knowledge/men of comprehension are the twelve Imams.
What do you have to say now? Are you going to look into this with an open mind or keep coming at me with bits and pieces suiting your mindset?
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Lets leave my qiyas on possibility out of it for a moment. This is what was said in your introductory post;
"but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge"
And in your present post you say;
"Allah says in the Quran that only he knows the exact meaning of the Mutashabihat verses"
So what happened to "and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge" ?
There is recommended stop after the word Allah.
Is it just and only Allah who knows? Or and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge along with Allah?
If you know the basic rules of Tajweed the recommended stop is after Allah, and its not in after "those who are rooted in knowledge."
"No one knows their true meanings except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter say, "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord" and none will understand the message except men of comprehension."
According to which rules of Tajweed? You put in the stops where its not there.
You'll find that it's not only and just Allah but also 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge/men of comprehension. And we strongly believe that those who are firmly rooted in knowledge/men of comprehension are the twelve Imams.
Which jahil muffasir among the 12er Shia removed the recommened stop and added stops where they don't belong?
I doubt any of the 12er Shia scholars are this ignorant.
What do you have to say now? Are you going to look into this with an open mind or keep coming at me with bits and pieces suiting your mindset?
What I have to say is that you don't know the basic rules of how to read the Quran. You removed the recommended stop and added a stop where its not present. Imam Ali (as) used to teach people the Quran, and here you playing with the rules just to make a point.
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There is recommended stop after the word Allah. If you know the basic rules of Tajweed the recommended stop is after Allah, and its not in after "those who are rooted in knowledge."
According to which rules of Tajweed? You put in the stops where its not there.
Which jahil muffasir among the 12er Shia removed the recommened stop and added stops where they don't belong?
I doubt any of the 12er Shia scholars are this ignorant. What I have to say is that you don't know the basic rules of how to read the Quran. You removed the recommended stop and added a stop where its not present. Imam Ali (as) used to teach people the Quran, and here you playing with the rules just to make a point.
What a lousy and ridiculous response. Here it is again;
Ayah 7 in Surat Al-^Imran means:
"No one knows their true meanings except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter say, "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord" and none will understand the message except men of comprehension."
What can I say. If you want to play that blind or result in such arrogance then that's down to you.
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What a lousy and ridiculous response. Here it is again;
Ayah 7 in Surat Al-^Imran means:
"No one knows their true meanings except Allah and those who are firmly rooted in the knowledge of the Religion. The latter say, "We believe in it, all of it is from our Lord" and none will understand the message except men of comprehension."
Which translator removed the period after Allah and added after religion? This is not in the Arabic.
What can I say. If you want to play that blind or result in such arrogance then that's down to you.
Taqiyyah allows you to do wonders. There is no stop after religion. You added it, and your asbiyah allowed this lie to take place. Once again which translator removed the period after Allah and added it after religion? The Arabic has no stop where you added it. Fear Allah or you will be sinned for it. Even the 12er Shia Mufassir did not do what you did.
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I’ve noticed that shia sites online translate it the way Iceman has pasted.
But all sunni translations stop at ‘Allah’.
Can anyone shed light on whether its a valid translation or not by the shia?
Clearly the two different translations give different meanings.
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Which translator removed the period after Allah and added after religion? This is not in the Arabic.
Taqiyyah allows you to do wonders. There is no stop after religion. You added it, and your asbiyah allowed this lie to take place. Once again which translator removed the period after Allah and added it after religion? The Arabic has no stop where you added it. Fear Allah or you will be sinned for it. Even the 12er Shia Mufassir did not do what you did.
I don't understand why you get personal or speak as though you hold a grudge. Most of you respond and behave as such. Did I say anything about taqiya. What's this got to do with the thread, subject and topic and what we're discussing.
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You didn't explain why the translation differs. Instead of replying to the question you pasted a translation and wanted to carry a discussion based on a copy and paste translation.
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I’ve noticed that shia sites online translate it the way Iceman has pasted.
But all sunni translations stop at ‘Allah’.
Can anyone shed light on whether its a valid translation or not by the shia?
Clearly the two different translations give different meanings.
They ignored the stops placed in the quran and added their own stops. Question is where is the 12er version the stops? Can we find it online?
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You didn't explain why the translation differs. Instead of replying to the question you pasted a translation and wanted to carry a discussion based on a copy and paste translation.
Ok, why don't you put the actual verses forward and we shall take it from there, so there is no misunderstanding or excuses.
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This is the title of your thread;
How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
And this is what you said at the beginning of your opening post;
"Okay so I looked the verse of Mukahamath and Mutashabihat, and for the Mutashabihat it says only Allah (swt) alone knows it. However, the 12er Shia appear and still say the Imams know it. If this is the case why doesn't the Quran just say the 12 Imams know it as well?"
Now what exactly do the verses say? Forget about what you and I think or what the Shias or Sunnis say, what does Allah say?
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This is the title of your thread;
How can Imams know the Mutashabihat?
And this is what you said at the beginning of your opening post;
"Okay so I looked the verse of Mukahamath and Mutashabihat, and for the Mutashabihat it says only Allah (swt) alone knows it. However, the 12er Shia appear and still say the Imams know it. If this is the case why doesn't the Quran just say the 12 Imams know it as well?"
Now what exactly do the verses say? Forget about what you and I think or what the Shias or Sunnis say, what does Allah say?
The following is from your first and opening post as well;
هُوَ الَّذِي أَنْزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِنْ عِنْدِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ {7}
[Shakir 3:7] He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.
Notice this;
"وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ"
Translate the above for me and tell me what is being said
This is part of what you quoted;
"But none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge"
What does 'Rasekhoona Fil Ilm' mean and who are they? No one is aware of the true meaning and understanding of the verses of Mutashabihat 'illallah' apart from Allah and 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge.
Why didn't Allah say somewhere along the lines of 'apart from Allah and his Messengers'? Or no one is aware other than Allah? Allah has said apart from him those who are firmly rooted in knowledge are also aware. Focus on the open statement 'those who are firmly rooted in knowledge'. This is an open statement and can also apply to high ranking scholars from both sides (Shias as well as Sunnis).
Because apart from Allah if no one is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of Mutashabihat verses then what do we do and make of these verses? If we go by your understanding and statement that apart from Allah no one knows or knew the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses then that means the Prophet (pbuh) was also clueless and helpless?
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then that means the Prophet (pbuh) was also clueless and helpless?
You really are stupid and I really mean that using such words for rehmat ul alimeen saw.......you could use better words at the least, is your vocabulary that low??
Astaghfirullah
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You really are stupid and I really mean that using such words for rehmat ul alimeen saw.......you could use better words at the least, is your vocabulary that low??
Astaghfirullah
See what I mean. Most of you are just here to undermine. You have an anti shia sentiment and that's all you thrive on. You constantly disregard the entire post and just pick something, take it out of context, twist and turn it around and score your desired point. Any intellectual comment from you based on knowledge? I don't think so. Forget about my vocabulary, I've busted bits and parts of your Aqeedah over and over again and that's what's bugging you.
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You really are stupid and I really mean that using such words for rehmat ul alimeen saw.......you could use better words at the least, is your vocabulary that low??
Astaghfirullah
Rather than taking cheap shots to score personal points why don't you give me a complete break down of your analysis in response to mine. Otherwise keep quiet and stay out and let me discuss with the one who started the thread.
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See what I mean. Most of you are just here to undermine. You have an anti shia sentiment and that's all you thrive on. You constantly disregard the entire post and just pick something, take it out of context, twist and turn it around and score your desired point. Any intellectual comment from you based on knowledge? I don't think so. Forget about my vocabulary, I've busted bits and parts of your Aqeedah over and over again and that's what's bugging you.
Hit a raw nerve have I........
Busted what? You still haven’t proved Imamate from Quran which I asked you to provide months ago whilst I provided you shura consultation from the Quran months ago, hence I left it coz you have nothing apart from your own opinions and ideas, I let you drown in your own self ego.
At least be a man and admit you should’ve never used words like clueless against the greatest prophet that ever walked on this earth, I was ok reading the posts but I ain’t gonna stay quite when you use such poor and insulting words like that against our prophet saw.....you may see Him as ordinary but we don’t, i will stay quite but don’t use such words again have some respect, if not then I will speak out I won’t be hiding like some.
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Rather than taking cheap shots to score personal points why don't you give me a complete break down of your analysis in response to mine. Otherwise keep quiet and stay out and let me discuss with the one who started the thread.
Instead of using clueless and helpless you could’ve just said politely.........words like ‘didn’t know’ or ‘didn’t understand’ there’s my analysis in response to your chosen words.......be a man about it and admit you are wrong using such words wether to make a point or otherwise. There are people also reading these threads who don’t like your choice of words on the greatest man who taught you and I islam so be careful and don’t use disrespectful words.
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I’ve noticed that shia sites online translate it the way Iceman has pasted.
But all sunni translations stop at ‘Allah’.
Can anyone shed light on whether its a valid translation or not by the shia?
Clearly the two different translations give different meanings.
from Ibn kathir, tafsir Quran on 3:7 (english translation) page 12/343, :
Scholars of Qur'an recitation have different opinions about pausing at Allah's Name in this Ayah. This stop was reported from Aishah, Urwah, Abu Ash-Sha`tha' and Abu Nahik.
Some pause after reciting, وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ (And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge), saying that the Qur'an does not address the people with what they cannot understand.
Ibn Abi Najih said that Mujahid said that Ibn Abbas said,
"I am among those who are firmly grounded in its Ta'wil interpretation.''...
hope this helps.
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Hit a raw nerve have I........
Busted what? You still haven’t proved Imamate from Quran which I asked you to provide months ago whilst I provided you shura consultation from the Quran months ago, hence I left it coz you have nothing apart from your own opinions and ideas, I let you drown in your own self ego.
At least be a man and admit you should’ve never used words like clueless against the greatest prophet that ever walked on this earth, I was ok reading the posts but I ain’t gonna stay quite when you use such poor and insulting words like that against our prophet saw.....you may see Him as ordinary but we don’t, i will stay quite but don’t use such words again have some respect, if not then I will speak out I won’t be hiding like some.
What a cheap shot. If you can't get the better of someone in a discussion then look for a cheap excuse and turn it into an argument. Your entire post tells me you're out to score points and gain attention. I won't let you derail the thread. So stay quiet and keep out if you've got nothing to contribute to the thread and discussion. And as far as your other points, I've proven Imamah from the Qur'an and I've done it many times over. As far as consultation goes I've asked you what are the principles, rules and regulations to conduct shura, what is the method and procedure but I got no answer. Lets stick to the thread and what's being discussed.
I didn't use such words against the Prophet (pbuh). Those who believe that Allah only knows the actual and true meaning and understanding regarding the Mutashabihat verses and no one else are insulting the Prophet (pbuh) by believing as such. You know what I said and ment. I won't let you hijack this thread and discussion.
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Ok, why don't you put the actual verses forward and we shall take it from there, so there is no misunderstanding or excuses.
Sorry my son was born today. I was busy at the hospital. I couldn't reply immediately.
Here is the verse, and this is why I am relying on a different translation as compared to the one you posted.
ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ - 3:7
You see in the Quran versions online there is ۗ after Allah. There is no stopping after الْعِلْمِ. So why would I accept your translation.
Here is a link for it.
https://quran.com/3
Can you show me a 12er Shia quran where the stop is found after الْعِلْمِ? Does a 12er Shia version exist online?
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Because apart from Allah if no one is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of Mutashabihat verses then what do we do and make of these verses? If we go by your understanding and statement that apart from Allah no one knows or knew the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses then that means the Prophet (pbuh) was also clueless and helpless?
Do you know remember when the Jews asked the Prophet (pbuh) 3 questions, and the replies were given. One of the question was about the soul. Allah (swt) openly says only Allah knows. He didn't answer the question. We Sunnis believe its part of hikmah. What is the 12er Shia version of the story?
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from Ibn kathir, tafsir Quran on 3:7 (english translation) page 12/343, :hope this helps.
Actually this makes a huge difference. Thanks! Is there any 12er Shia narrations about the Imams having the same understanding as Ibn Abbas?
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Sorry my son was born today. I was busy at the hospital. I couldn't reply immediately.
Here is the verse, and this is why I am relying on a different translation as compared to the one you posted.
ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ - 3:7
You see in the Quran versions online there is ۗ after Allah. There is no stopping after الْعِلْمِ. So why would I accept your translation.
Here is a link for it.
https://quran.com/3
Can you show me a 12er Shia quran where the stop is found after الْعِلْمِ? Does a 12er Shia version exist online?
And very big CONGRATULATIONS on the birth of your son.
"Here is the verse, and this is why I am relying on a different translation as compared to the one you posted"
Don't worry about the one I've posted. Lets focus on the one you've put forward.
" ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ - 3:7"
There are a few points I'd like to make here. ' ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ" who are they and what is Allah saying about them here? What about them and why are they being mentioned?
If we go by your translation and meaning then this means that no one other than Allah is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of Mutashabihat verses, not even Muhammad s.a.w upon whom these verses were revealed,
and it was his responsibility to pass the message on but some of it (Mutashabihat verses) he wasn't aware, so does this mean that we (Muslims) have a free pass regarding and concerning the Mutashabihat verses since no one knows exactly about them and no one can accuse anyone or each other, because we don't know who's right about what?
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Do you know remember when the Jews asked the Prophet (pbuh) 3 questions, and the replies were given. One of the question was about the soul. Allah (swt) openly says only Allah knows. He didn't answer the question. We Sunnis believe its part of hikmah. What is the 12er Shia version of the story?
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will look into it then comment on it.
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And very big CONGRATULATIONS on the birth of your son.
Jazakallah.
If we go by your translation and meaning then this means that no one other than Allah is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of Mutashabihat verses, not even Muhammad s.a.w upon whom these verses were revealed,
and it was his responsibility to pass the message on but some of it (Mutashabihat verses) he wasn't aware, so does this mean that we (Muslims) have a free pass regarding and concerning the Mutashabihat verses since no one knows exactly about them and no one can accuse anyone or each other, because we don't know who's right about what?
Its not about translation. Trust me the translation is accurate. Just look at where the stops are. It has to be translated that way. Anyway, brother wannabe solved the problem. It turns out ibn Abbas placed the stops which actually goes according to the translation you posted. I was not aware of that until I opened the topic. So, its actually a new learning experience for me. So now the debate isn't about translations. Its about if there are narration from the 12er Shia books supporting Ibn Abbas' view on where the stops are in the verse or did the 12er Shia do ijitihad and naturally incline toward Ibn Abbas' view?
This happened before. I looked up an interpretation of the shin in the Quran. The 12er Shia narrations lack a good explanation of what the shin means in the Quran. Therefore, they were forced to open up the Bakri sources and adopt Ibn Abbas' view from our Bakri books.
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Jazakallah.
Its not about translation. Trust me the translation is accurate. Just look at where the stops are. It has to be translated that way. Anyway, brother wannabe solved the problem. It turns out ibn Abbas placed the stops which actually goes according to the translation you posted. I was not aware of that until I opened the topic. So, its actually a new learning experience for me. So now the debate isn't about translations. Its about if there are narration from the 12er Shia books supporting Ibn Abbas' view on where the stops are in the verse or did the 12er Shia do ijitihad and naturally incline toward Ibn Abbas' view?
This happened before. I looked up an interpretation of the shin in the Quran. The 12er Shia narrations lack a good explanation of what the shin means in the Quran. Therefore, they were forced to open up the Bakri sources and adopt Ibn Abbas' view from our Bakri books.
Ok, for argumental reasons lets go by what you say, then who are 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' and why has Allah mentioned them and what is Allah trying to tell us and say about them? What about 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm'?
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Ibn Abbas said he was one of them. Its people with advanced knowledge of the Quran.
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I would like to bring this to your attention;
According to the Qur’an, things which are special property of Allah, such as creation, giving life, curing without medicine, the knowledge of what has happened and what will happen, may either be momentarily given by Him at the moment they are required, or else the power and ability to do them may be given so that they can be used when necessary, by the permission of Allah. An example of the latter comes in the story of Prophet Jesus (as) who, according to Qur’an, said:
"I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; I will create for you out of clay a figure of a bird, then I will breath into it, and it will be a bird by leave of Allah; I will also heal the blind and the leper, and bring to life the dead, by leave of Allah. I will also inform you of what things you eat and what you treasure up in your houses. Surely, in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.”(Qur’an 3:49; see also 5:110)
So here creating something out of clay and breathing a sole into it, healing the blind and leper and bringing to life the dead should be Allah's job alone. But here we can see that it's not just Allah's job but also those who Allah grants.
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Ibn Abbas said he was one of them. Its people with advanced knowledge of the Quran.
And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE? Either Allah knows the true and actual meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses along with 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge, or if only Allah knows then what about "Rasekhoona Fil ilm' ? Why have they been mentioned and what for?
We join 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' along with Allah that not only he is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses but also those firmly rooted in knowledge. But you separate 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' from Allah then why are they mentioned and where and what are you going to attach them with? Your talking about the stop but not addressing the remainder of the verse. What's the purpose and reason for the rest of the verse?
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My understanding is Ibn Abbas was given more time to study metaphorical verses of the Quran under the Propblhet (pbuh) and Imam Ali (as). I don't in any way mean he was given some super natural power. So i disagree with your suggestion that this special knowledge has to be some special power. It all about education and not super natural power.
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Ibn Kathir reported: Ibn Abbas said, “Interpretations (tafseer) are of four types: interpretations no one will be excused for misunderstanding, interpretations known to the Arabs from their language, interpretations known only to those grounded in knowledge, and interpretations known only to Allah the Exalted.” This saying has been narrated from Aisha, Urwah, Abu Sha’tha, Abu Naheek, and others.
Source: Tafseer Ibn Kathir 3:7
عن ابن كثير عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ أَنَّهُ قَالَ التَّفْسِيرُ عَلَى أَرْبَعَةِ أَنْحَاءٍ فَتَفْسِيرٌ لَا يُعْذَرُ أَحَدٌ فِي فَهْمِهِ وَتَفْسِيرٌ تَعْرِفُهُ الْعَرَبُ مِنْ لُغَاتِهَا وَتَفْسِيرٌ يَعْلَمُهُ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ وَتَفْسِيرٌ لَا يَعْلَمُهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَيُرْوَى هَذَا الْقَوْلُ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ وَعُرْوَةَ وَأَبِي الشَّعْثَاءِ وَأَبِي نَهِيكٍ وَغَيْرِهِمْ
3:7 تفسير القرآن العظيم تفسير سورة آل عمران تفسير قوله تعالى هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتاب منه آيات محكمات
So it seems Ibn Abbas being one of those able to do taweel is in reference to only the third type, by his own definition?
So he agrees there are verses which only Allah SWT knows their meanings.
Also can someone clarify if the quote which wannabe posted was a deliberate misquote by not quoting fully what Ibn Abbas said or was it a genuine seperate quote?
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This is what I said,
And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE? Either Allah knows the true and actual meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses along with 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge, or if only Allah knows then what about "Rasekhoona Fil ilm' ? Why have they been mentioned and what for?
You didn't address this.
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This is what I said,
And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE?
It means better education and time to understand the interpretation of those verses. Everyone can study science, but not everyone can become a scientist or a doctor.
Why have they been mentioned and what for?
You didn't address this.
Not every one is capable of advance understanding. However, this is not the case for the Mukhamath verses.
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Actually this makes a huge difference. Thanks! Is there any 12er Shia narrations about the Imams having the same understanding as Ibn Abbas?
salam bro
i was hoping bro iceman will answer your question.
since none came so far, here i am.
i don't think there are narrations about Imams having the same understanding as Ibn Abbas.
However, there are narrations saying the Imams are "those who are firmly rooted in knowledge" in Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 22.
mind you, i am just answering your question (i don't know how authentic these are, though).
i'm not a shia but i sure would like to see every ahlul qiblat
"....strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;". (Quran 5:48)
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Ibn Kathir reported: Ibn Abbas said, “Interpretations (tafseer) are of four types: interpretations no one will be excused for misunderstanding, interpretations known to the Arabs from their language, interpretations known only to those grounded in knowledge, and interpretations known only to Allah the Exalted.” This saying has been narrated from Aisha, Urwah, Abu Sha’tha, Abu Naheek, and others.
Source: Tafseer Ibn Kathir 3:7
عن ابن كثير عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ أَنَّهُ قَالَ التَّفْسِيرُ عَلَى أَرْبَعَةِ أَنْحَاءٍ فَتَفْسِيرٌ لَا يُعْذَرُ أَحَدٌ فِي فَهْمِهِ وَتَفْسِيرٌ تَعْرِفُهُ الْعَرَبُ مِنْ لُغَاتِهَا وَتَفْسِيرٌ يَعْلَمُهُ الرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ وَتَفْسِيرٌ لَا يَعْلَمُهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَيُرْوَى هَذَا الْقَوْلُ عَنْ عَائِشَةَ وَعُرْوَةَ وَأَبِي الشَّعْثَاءِ وَأَبِي نَهِيكٍ وَغَيْرِهِمْ
3:7 تفسير القرآن العظيم تفسير سورة آل عمران تفسير قوله تعالى هو الذي أنزل عليك الكتاب منه آيات محكمات
So it seems Ibn Abbas being one of those able to do taweel is in reference to only the third type, by his own definition?
So he agrees there are verses which only Allah SWT knows their meanings.
Also can someone clarify if the quote which wannabe posted was a deliberate misquote by not quoting fully what Ibn Abbas said or was it a genuine seperate quote?
i believe they are 2 separate reports. i try not to misled anyone since i fear
[Shakir 16:25] That they may bear their burdens entirely on the day of resurrection and also of the burdens of those whom they lead astray without knowledge; now surely evil is what they bear.
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salam bro
i was hoping bro iceman will answer your question.
since none came so far, here i am.
i don't think there are narrations about Imams having the same understanding as Ibn Abbas.
However, there are narrations saying the Imams are "those who are firmly rooted in knowledge" in Al Kafi V 1 – The Book Of Divine Authority CH 22.
mind you, i am just answering your question (i don't know how authentic these are, though).
i'm not a shia but i sure would like to see every ahlul qiblat
"....strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;". (Quran 5:48)
This is all I wanted. Instead the brother started with an anology and then didnt back up why the translation differed. Then again instead of answering the question he replied with more questions. Also I am wondering if the Imams explains where the stops are in the verse. I dont know why but Abdullah ibn Abbas most of the time shows more knowledge than the 12er Shia Imams on the bases of their narration. One can blame the narrators in the end.
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This is all I wanted. Instead the brother started with an anology and then didnt back up why the translation differed. Then again instead of answering the question he replied with more questions. Also I am wondering if the Imams explains where the stops are in the verse. I dont know why but Abdullah ibn Abbas most of the time shows more knowledge than the 12er Shia Imams on the bases of their narration. One can blame the narrators in the end.
This is what I've put forward and mentioned and also touched on a few times but you've continuously avoided,
And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE? Either Allah knows the true and actual meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses along with 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge, or if only Allah knows then what about "Rasekhoona Fil ilm' ? Why have they been mentioned and what for?
We join 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' along with Allah that not only he is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses but also those firmly rooted in knowledge. But you separate 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' from Allah then why are they mentioned and where and what are you going to attach them with? Your talking about the stop but not addressing the remainder of the verse. What's the purpose and reason for the rest of the verse?
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See:
http://quranicduas.com/tafsir-ibn-kathir-surah-ali-imran-ayah-7-9/
It explains who they are.
Also explains Ibn Abbas does believe some verses only Allah SWT knows their true meanings & that there are some verses which those firmly grounded in knowledge understand.
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See:
http://quranicduas.com/tafsir-ibn-kathir-surah-ali-imran-ayah-7-9/
It explains who they are.
Also explains Ibn Abbas does believe some verses only Allah SWT knows their true meanings & that there are some verses which those firmly grounded in knowledge understand.
Thanks. Take a look at the following verse;
"(O’ Prophet) say: Enough for witness between me and you is Allah and he who possesses the Knowledge of the Book.”(Qur’an 13:43)
قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّـهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ (Qur’an 13:43)"
Notice this; "and he who possess the knowledge of the book"
Is there someone apart from Allah who possess knowledge of the book who along with Allah are witnesses between Muhammad (pbuh) and who ever the 'YOU' are?
What's the Ahle Sunah perspective of this particular verse?
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Thanks. Take a look at the following verse;
"(O’ Prophet) say: Enough for witness between me and you is Allah and he who possesses the Knowledge of the Book.”(Qur’an 13:43)
قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّـهِ شَهِيدًا بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ (Qur’an 13:43)"
Notice this; "and he who possess the knowledge of the book"
Is there someone apart from Allah who possess knowledge of the book who along with Allah are witnesses between Muhammad (pbuh) and who ever the 'YOU' are?
What's the Ahle Sunah perspective of this particular verse?
An accurate translation would be:
Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).
The Jews & Christians are being referred to here. Those who had knowledge of the previous scriptures were aware of the signs of the appearance of the final messenger SAW.
See the verses preceding:
We sent messengers before you, and We assigned for them wives and offspring. No messenger could bring a sign except with the permission of God. For every era is a scripture.
(13:38).
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This is what I've put forward and mentioned and also touched on a few times but you've continuously avoided,
And what about them, those who have advance knowledge of the Qur'an? And what do you mean of ADVANCE KNOWLEDGE? Either Allah knows the true and actual meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses along with 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' those who are firmly rooted in knowledge, or if only Allah knows then what about "Rasekhoona Fil ilm' ? Why have they been mentioned and what for?
We join 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' along with Allah that not only he is aware of the actual and true meaning and understanding of the Mutashabihat verses but also those firmly rooted in knowledge. But you separate 'Rasekhoona Fil ilm' from Allah then why are they mentioned and where and what are you going to attach them with? Your talking about the stop but not addressing the remainder of the verse. What's the purpose and reason for the rest of the verse?
Refer to reply 39.
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An accurate translation would be:
Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).
The Jews & Christians are being referred to here. Those who had knowledge of the previous scriptures were aware of the signs of the appearance of the final messenger SAW.
See the verses preceding:
We sent messengers before you, and We assigned for them wives and offspring. No messenger could bring a sign except with the permission of God. For every era is a scripture.
(13:38).
"An accurate translation would be"
How do you know the translation you've given is accurate? After all the verses you've mentioned would be Mutashabihat, wouldn't they?
So looking at the verses,
"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).
God is a sufficient witness between MUHAMMAD,s.a.w and the DISBELIEVERS. And what do you make of this verse,
"and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture" is also a witness, along with God, between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers? Is this what you're saying?
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"An accurate translation would be"
How do you know the translation you've given is accurate? After all the verses you've mentioned would be Mutashabihat, wouldn't they?
So looking at the verses,
"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).
God is a sufficient witness between MUHAMMAD,s.a.w and the DISBELIEVERS. And what do you make of this verse,
"and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture" is also a witness, along with God, between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers? Is this what you're saying?
Yes those with knowledge of the scriptures are witnesses between the Prophet SAW & those who are denying him.
Meaning they know the signs.
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Yes those with knowledge of the scriptures are witnesses between the Prophet SAW & those who are denying him.
Meaning they know the signs.
Ok. I'm just trying to understand this explanation. So the argument is between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers, Jews and Christians. Despite believing in their scriptures they're still holding on to them and are not accepting Muhammad s.a.w as a Messenger of God and the Qur'an as a holy scripture.
So Allah intervenes with the following verses by saying,
"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43)"
So those who disbelieve say to Muhammad s.a.w that "you're not a Messenger of God" despite believing in the scriptures before.
Now God intervenes by saying to Muhammad s.a.w to say to those who disbelieve by denying his Messenger status that Allah, along with those who have knowledge of the Scripture (Torah and Bible), are witnesses between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers. Is this what you're saying and trying to implement?
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Ok. I'm just trying to understand this explanation. So the argument is between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers, Jews and Christians. Despite believing in their scriptures they're still holding on to them and are not accepting Muhammad s.a.w as a Messenger of God and the Qur'an as a holy scripture.
So Allah intervenes with the following verses by saying,
"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43)"
So those who disbelieve say to Muhammad s.a.w that "you're not a Messenger of God" despite believing in the scriptures before.
Now God intervenes by saying to Muhammad s.a.w to say to those who disbelieve by denying his Messenger status that Allah, along with those who have knowledge of the Scripture (Torah and Bible), are witnesses between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers. Is this what you're saying and trying to implement?
Yes
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Yes
Ok. So what would the status of these people be, those who have knowledge of the Scripture be it Torah, Zaboor or the Bible? Would they be from the believers or disbelievers?
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Yes
Also how would you translate the following;
"وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ"
Would it be,
"And those who have knowledge of the Scripture"?
Or would it be,
"And he who has knowledge of the book"?
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The Jews believe if they get into spritiuality they can get the secret meaning of the Torah.
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The Jews believe if they get into spritiuality they can get the secret meaning of the Torah.
Thanks. OK, back to the verse,
"And those who have knowledge of the Scripture"
It's obvious that we're not talking about any Messenger/s or Prophet/s here like David, Moses or Jesus. And therefore it's also obvious that "those who have knowledge of the Scripture" are people who have no Messenger status but are from the Ummah of that particular Messenger upon the Scripture was revealed. So it is clear that there are some individuals, apart from Allah and those Messengers upon whom the Scripture was revealed, who have knowledge of the Scripture.
Then the Qur'an is also a scripture just like Torah, Zaboor and Injeel. And it is established that there are individuals, apart from Allah and Messengers and Prophets, who have knowledge of those scriptures. So this should also be clear that there should be someone, apart from Allah and Muhammad s.a.w, who also has knowledge of the Scripture (Qur'an).
But how would you translate the following;
"وَمَنْ عِندَهُ عِلْمُ الْكِتَابِ"
Would it be,
"And those who have knowledge of the Scripture"?
Or would it be,
"And he who has knowledge of the book"?
Would it be PLURAL or would it be SINGULAR? How would you translate it or what would be the actual and true translation?
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Iceman the reason they have knowledge is because they read the bible. Thats all it is. I don't understand how that explains how a person knows the mutashabihat through some type of supernatural power.
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Iceman the reason they have knowledge is because they read the bible. Thats all it is. I don't understand how that explains how a person knows the mutashabihat through some type of supernatural power.
Read the Bible, that is all? Be it the Bible or the Torah isn't the knowledge of the Scripture the hidden part of the book? You put forward a video explaining Kabbalah, isn't that the hidden part of theTorah which you need to reach a certain level or gain a special status before you understand it? It's not everyone's cup of tea.
Allah is making himself, along with those who have knowledge of the Scripture, as a witness to a very important matter and your saying because they read the Bible and Torah and THAT IS ALL? So what's the big deal then? Surely there's something to it. Are we mitigating the matter now?
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Iceman you have a peculiar habit of whenever you want to make a statement you do it in the form of question after questions.
What is clear is that the verse 13:43 that mentions ‘he who has knowledge of the book’ is not Ali or any other Imams from ahle bayt.
Just like Allah SWT & the prophet SAW are explicitly mentioned, then Ali or ahle bayt would have been eplicitly mentioned.
The change in stance from explicitly mentioning Allah SWT & prophet SAW but then not mentioning ‘he who has knowledge of the book’ by name(s) is proof it is reference to someone general.
Also its translated as written writ, scripture or book. Search english translations.
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Read the Bible, that is all? Be it the Bible or the Torah isn't the knowledge of the Scripture the hidden part of the book? You put forward a video explaining Kabbalah, isn't that the hidden part of theTorah which you need to reach a certain level or gain a special status before you understand it? It's not everyone's cup of tea.
I have presented the video to show how the 12er Shia understanding is deviant like the Yahoodi understanding. In some cases this applies to the Sufis as well.
Allah is making himself, along with those who have knowledge of the Scripture, as a witness to a very important matter and your saying because they read the Bible and Torah and THAT IS ALL? So what's the big deal then? Surely there's something to it. Are we mitigating the matter now?
This verse should be sufficient.
There was certainly in their stories a lesson for those of understanding. Never was the Qur'an a narration invented, but a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of all things and guidance and mercy for a people who believe. (Quran 12:111)
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Iceman you have a peculiar habit of whenever you want to make a statement you do it in the form of question after questions.
What is clear is that the verse 13:43 that mentions ‘he who has knowledge of the book’ is not Ali or any other Imams from ahle bayt.
Just like Allah SWT & the prophet SAW are explicitly mentioned, then Ali or ahle bayt would have been eplicitly mentioned.
The change in stance from explicitly mentioning Allah SWT & prophet SAW but then not mentioning ‘he who has knowledge of the book’ by name(s) is proof it is reference to someone general.
Also its translated as written writ, scripture or book. Search english translations.
Why are you so afraid to answer questions. Did I say it was Ali or members of the Ahlulbayt? I didn't say anything as such. Is it "he who has knowledge of the book" or "Those who have knowledge of the Scripture"? Lets establish this first. Don't be afraid or hesitant to answer.
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There isn’t one translation only.
Go ask an expert in arabic.
He & they, as well as book & scripture can hold the same meaning depending on context used.
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So looking at the verses,
"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).
There's Jews and Christians who disbelieve in Muhammad s.a.w and say that he's not a Messenger. God says to Muhammad s.a.w to tell them (disbelievers) that he (God) along with some disbelievers who have knowledge of their scripture are a witness between Muhammad s.a.w and those disbelievers?
WOW! Is this the Sunni translation and meaning that God is aligning himself with some disbelievers, who happen to have knowledge of the Scripture, and making these disbelievers a witness along with himself between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers. ?
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So looking at the verses,
"Those who disbelieve say, “You are not a messenger.” Say, “God is a sufficient witness between me and you, and whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”
(13:43).
There's Jews and Christians who disbelieve in Muhammad s.a.w and say that he's not a Messenger. God says to Muhammad s.a.w to tell them (disbelievers) that he (God) along with some disbelievers who have knowledge of their scripture are a witness between Muhammad s.a.w and those disbelievers?
WOW! Is this the Sunni translation and meaning that God is aligning himself with some disbelievers, who happen to have knowledge of the Scripture, and making these disbelievers a witness along with himself between Muhammad s.a.w and the disbelievers. ?
Well I guess you also have a problem that Allah SWT made these same people as a sign too:
“It is not a sign to them that the learned scholars of the Children of Israel knew it (as true)? (26:197)