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How do Sunnis understand 9:100?

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confusedshia

How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« on: September 14, 2017, 04:33:11 PM »
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

Rationalist

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2017, 05:14:15 PM »
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

There were no monafiqeen in the Makkan period of Islam. So it includes all the Muslims among the Muhajireen.

Quote
After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

The narration says 5. When did it become 50?


Quote
I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

How does it this incident disqualify Umar?

Link

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2017, 05:19:21 PM »
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

Salam

According to some hadiths, "The best of the who race ahead from those who emigrate (to God) and help (God)..." refers particularly to Ahlulbayt (as). We have a hadith to Imam Ali in this respect, and I have argued if you keep in mind the flow of Quran:  http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/leadership-in-quran/

That becomes the apparent meaning.

Start seeing things from the perspective of Ahlulbayt (as) hadiths and reflect the primary themes of Quran, and then all verses will come together in one giant rope that emphasizes on each other.

And seek to know God's Name and seek God's help through his name.




Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

confusedshia

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 05:23:00 PM »
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

There were no monafiqeen in the Makkan period of Islam. So it includes all the Muslims among the Muhajireen.

Quote
After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

The narration says 5. When did it become 50?


Quote
I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

How does it this incident disqualify Umar?

Maybe I'm reading the ayah wrong, but it seems to be saying "the first amongst the Muhajireen" so why does it say this as opposed to "all of the Muhajireen". What is the significance of Allah stating that it is only the first who were amongst the Muhajireen? This is what I'd like someone to answer.

I haven't read the narrations in the Tarikh of Tabari, I'm just going by what someone told me. So there is no mention of 50 people entering Islam prior to Abu Bakr, and it only says 5?

If Umar was not an early convert then does this mean he was not amongst the first of the Muhajireen which is what the ayah is talking about?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to understand what the ayah is saying.

Rationalist

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 06:02:18 PM »
The 12ers are playing with symantics. The first here refers to all Muhajireen who immigrated  right before the verse was revealed. They are the first before Ansaar.

As for 50 narration, you will have to tell me where the narration is found in Tabari. I have all 40 volumes. Umar himself numbers under 50 in terms of conversations.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 06:39:00 PM »
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness --Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

It clearly states 'aswell as those who followed them in goodness'.
So it makes no difference if Abu Bakr & Umar were the first or after 50, as they certainly were amongst the best in terms of goodness in following the first.

They are clearly included in this ayah no doubt.

Who gave up all his wealth for the cause? Abu Bakr.

Who stood against his peers of the Quraysh to take the cause of Islam? Umar.

Abu Muhammad

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 06:43:39 PM »
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

1) I can't understand how you could mix up between "Muhajirun" and "early converts in Makkah". The term Muhajirun only be used after the muslims migrated to Madinah.

2) Those who migrated i.e. the Muhajirun were not coming to Madinah at once. They were coming in batches for a period of about 8 years (until the conquest of Makkah). After the conquest, no more hijrah as the Prophet (saw) said.

3) The first batch were those who migrated with the Prophet (saw). They were around 70 people including Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Hence, these sahabah were definitely among the first or "the foremost from Muhajirun".
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 06:48:30 PM by Abu Muhammad »

Farid

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2017, 07:03:33 PM »
According to Sa'eed bin Al Musayyab and Ibn Sireen, verse 9:100 is about the Muhajireen and Ansar that were early enough into Islam that they prayed towards both Jerusalem first then Makkah.

History says that the qibla changed in year 2 AH. So, yes, most of the famous Muhajireen are included here. The main ones that aren't include Al Abbas, Amr bin Al Aas, and Khalid bin Al Waleed.

confusedshia

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2017, 09:41:22 PM »
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

1) I can't understand how you could mix up between "Muhajirun" and "early converts in Makkah". The term Muhajirun only be used after the muslims migrated to Madinah.

2) Those who migrated i.e. the Muhajirun were not coming to Madinah at once. They were coming in batches for a period of about 8 years (until the conquest of Makkah). After the conquest, no more hijrah as the Prophet (saw) said.

3) The first batch were those who migrated with the Prophet (saw). They were around 70 people including Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Hence, these sahabah were definitely among the first or "the foremost from Muhajirun".

Where can the reports which say Abu Bakr migrated to Medina with the first batch people be located? Are they just in Sunni sources or can this be found in Shia sources too?

confusedshia

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2017, 09:44:34 PM »
According to Sa'eed bin Al Musayyab and Ibn Sireen, verse 9:100 is about the Muhajireen and Ansar that were early enough into Islam that they prayed towards both Jerusalem first then Makkah.

History says that the qibla changed in year 2 AH. So, yes, most of the famous Muhajireen are included here. The main ones that aren't include Al Abbas, Amr bin Al Aas, and Khalid bin Al Waleed.

Does Ibn Sireen's view fit into what has been posted above, which is that there were 70 people who migrated to Medina? If so, how does one prove from Sunni and Shia sources that Abu Bakr was indeed amongst these 70 migrants? Because this is what the debate seems to be about. The Shias I have spoken to accept the ayah, but say it only refers to the first batch of migrants (as the brother above has mentioned) but they also say that there is no evidence of Abu Bakr being included amongst the first batch of people that made hijra.

Rationalist

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2017, 10:03:29 PM »
Abi Bakr enterer Madina with the Prophet(sawas), so how is he not part of the first batch?

confusedshia

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2017, 10:09:47 PM »
Abi Bakr enterer Madina with the Prophet(sawas), so how is he not part of the first batch?

Where can this story be found?

confusedshia

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2017, 10:22:19 PM »
The narration says 5. When did it become 50?

I have located the narration:

Muhammad ibn Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas Narrates: "I asked my father, was Abu Bakr the first of you to become Muslim, he said: No, more than 50 people became muslim before him, but he (Abu Bakr) was the best one of us" Tarikh al-Tabari, vol.2 page 60

Farid

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2017, 10:55:05 PM »
The exact same page includes quotes saying that he was the FIRST Muslim.

http://islamport.com/w/tkh/Web/2893/531.htm

The one that says fifty became Muslims before him is a fabrication. It includes Ibn Humaid who was a known liar.

confusedshia

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2017, 12:32:55 AM »
The exact same page includes quotes saying that he was the FIRST Muslim.

http://islamport.com/w/tkh/Web/2893/531.htm

The one that says fifty became Muslims before him is a fabrication. It includes Ibn Humaid who was a known liar.

Thank you.

Does the report say Abu Bakr became the first Muslim or that he became the first male Muslim?

Abu Muhammad

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 02:54:45 AM »
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

1) I can't understand how you could mix up between "Muhajirun" and "early converts in Makkah". The term Muhajirun only be used after the muslims migrated to Madinah.

2) Those who migrated i.e. the Muhajirun were not coming to Madinah at once. They were coming in batches for a period of about 8 years (until the conquest of Makkah). After the conquest, no more hijrah as the Prophet (saw) said.

3) The first batch were those who migrated with the Prophet (saw). They were around 70 people including Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Hence, these sahabah were definitely among the first or "the foremost from Muhajirun".

Where can the reports which say Abu Bakr migrated to Medina with the first batch people be located? Are they just in Sunni sources or can this be found in Shia sources too?

It can be found in Twelvers sources too. Abu Bakr (ra) was in the cave when he (ra) accompanied Prophet (saw) migrated to Madinah. Please take your time to read this till the end.

https://gift2shias.com/2012/04/17/abu-bakr-in-the-cave-with-prophet-sallalahu-alaihi-wa-sallam/

confusedshia

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2017, 04:09:49 AM »
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

1) I can't understand how you could mix up between "Muhajirun" and "early converts in Makkah". The term Muhajirun only be used after the muslims migrated to Madinah.

2) Those who migrated i.e. the Muhajirun were not coming to Madinah at once. They were coming in batches for a period of about 8 years (until the conquest of Makkah). After the conquest, no more hijrah as the Prophet (saw) said.

3) The first batch were those who migrated with the Prophet (saw). They were around 70 people including Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Hence, these sahabah were definitely among the first or "the foremost from Muhajirun".

Where can the reports which say Abu Bakr migrated to Medina with the first batch people be located? Are they just in Sunni sources or can this be found in Shia sources too?

It can be found in Twelvers sources too. Abu Bakr (ra) was in the cave when he (ra) accompanied Prophet (saw) migrated to Madinah. Please take your time to read this till the end.

https://gift2shias.com/2012/04/17/abu-bakr-in-the-cave-with-prophet-sallalahu-alaihi-wa-sallam/

Thank you.

What sources does Shaykh al-Tusi rely on? Can this be found in al-Kafi or any other Shia hadith books? If so, I'd love to see them.

Farid

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2017, 04:10:35 AM »
The exact same page includes quotes saying that he was the FIRST Muslim.

http://islamport.com/w/tkh/Web/2893/531.htm

The one that says fifty became Muslims before him is a fabrication. It includes Ibn Humaid who was a known liar.

Thank you.

Does the report say Abu Bakr became the first Muslim or that he became the first male Muslim?

One says male, while others keep it general.

Rationalist

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2017, 05:23:53 AM »
The narration says 5. When did it become 50?

I have located the narration:

Muhammad ibn Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas Narrates: "I asked my father, was Abu Bakr the first of you to become Muslim, he said: No, more than 50 people became muslim before him, but he (Abu Bakr) was the best one of us" Tarikh al-Tabari, vol.2 page 60

Ok I found the narration, and its does exist in volume 6 page 85.

Those who say this: In Humayd-Kinanah b. Jabalah- [1167]
Ibrahim b. Tahman-al-Hajjaj b. al-Hajjaj-Qatadah-Salim b.
Abi al-Ja'd-Muhammad b. Sad: I said to my father, "Was Abu
Bakr the first of them to accept Islam ?" He answered, "No, more
than fifty people accepted Islam before him, but he was the best
Muslim among us."


However, this isn't the only narration Tabari mentioned. Also, even with this narration it doesn't disqualify him as a Muhajir who were praised in the Quran.

Here are other narrations in Tabari about Abi Bakr.

Abu Bakr
Others say that Abu Bakr was the first male to accept Islam.
Those who say this:
Sahl b. Musa al-Razi-'Abd al-Rahman b. Maghra,-Mujalidal-
Sha'bi: I said to Ibn 'Abbas, "Who was the first to accept Islam?"
He answered, " Have you not heard the lines of Hassan b . Thabit
If you call to mind trustworthy men to grieve for them,
mention your brother Abu Bakr and his deeds.


The best of men, the most pious and the most just
after the Prophet, and the most faithful in fulfilling
what he undertook.
The second, the follower, may his tomb be praised,
and the first of men to believe in the prophets.
Said b. 'Anbasah al-Razi-al-Haytham b. 'Adi-Mujalid-al- [1166]
Shabi-Ibn 'Abbas: A similar account.
Ibn Humayd-Yahya b. Wadih-al-Haytham b. 'Adi-Mujalidal-
Shabl-Ibn 'Abbas: A similar account.
Bahr b. Nasr al-Khawlani-'Abdallah b. Wahb-Mu'awiyah b.
Salih-Abu Yahya and Damrah b. Habib and Abu Talhah-Abu
Umanah al-Bahili-'Amr b. 'Abasah: I came to the Messenger of
God when he was staying at 'Ukaz'M and said, "O Messenger of
God, who has followed you in this religion?" He replied, "Two
men have followed me in it, a free man and a slave; Abu Bakr and
Bilal." Then I accepted Islam and reckoned myself at that time to
be one quarter of those who believe in Islam.
Ibn 'Abd al-Rahim al-Barg- Amr b. Abi Salamah-Sadagah-
Nasr b. 'Alqamah-his brother-Ibn 'A'idh-Jubayr b. Nufayr:
Both Abu Dharr and Ibn 'Abasah used to say, "I reckoned myself
to be a quarter of those who believed in Islam, for no one had
accepted Islam before me but the Prophet, Abu Bakr and Bilal."
Neither knew when the other accepted Islam.
Ibn Humayd-Jarir-Mughirah-Ibrahim: The irst to accpt Islam
was Abu Bakr.
Abu Kurayb-Waki'-Shubah-'Amr b. Murrah-Ibrahim al-
Nakha'i: Abu Bakr was the first to accept Islam.
Others say that a number of people accepted Islam before Abu
Bakr.



Now we have narrations which can refute the claim about Abu bakr being the  first to accept Islam, but to accept  that 50 people have accepted Islam before Abi Bakr has not been proven because the narrator doesn't mention who the 50 were. On top of that the narrator says Abi Bakr deeds are the best and doesn't disqualify him the people who were among the first muhajir.

 

Rationalist

Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2017, 05:27:34 AM »
Abi Bakr enterer Madina with the Prophet(sawas), so how is he not part of the first batch?

Where can this story be found?

Remember he was in the cave with the Prophet (pbuh). Refer to Surah 9:40

 

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