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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Quran-Tafseer => Topic started by: confusedshia on September 14, 2017, 04:33:11 PM

Title: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: confusedshia on September 14, 2017, 04:33:11 PM
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Rationalist on September 14, 2017, 05:14:15 PM
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

There were no monafiqeen in the Makkan period of Islam. So it includes all the Muslims among the Muhajireen.

Quote
After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

The narration says 5. When did it become 50?


Quote
I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

How does it this incident disqualify Umar?
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Link on September 14, 2017, 05:19:21 PM
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

Salam

According to some hadiths, "The best of the who race ahead from those who emigrate (to God) and help (God)..." refers particularly to Ahlulbayt (as). We have a hadith to Imam Ali in this respect, and I have argued if you keep in mind the flow of Quran:  http://forum.twelvershia.net/imamah-ghaybah/leadership-in-quran/

That becomes the apparent meaning.

Start seeing things from the perspective of Ahlulbayt (as) hadiths and reflect the primary themes of Quran, and then all verses will come together in one giant rope that emphasizes on each other.

And seek to know God's Name and seek God's help through his name.




Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: confusedshia on September 14, 2017, 05:23:00 PM
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

There were no monafiqeen in the Makkan period of Islam. So it includes all the Muslims among the Muhajireen.

Quote
After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

The narration says 5. When did it become 50?


Quote
I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

How does it this incident disqualify Umar?

Maybe I'm reading the ayah wrong, but it seems to be saying "the first amongst the Muhajireen" so why does it say this as opposed to "all of the Muhajireen". What is the significance of Allah stating that it is only the first who were amongst the Muhajireen? This is what I'd like someone to answer.

I haven't read the narrations in the Tarikh of Tabari, I'm just going by what someone told me. So there is no mention of 50 people entering Islam prior to Abu Bakr, and it only says 5?

If Umar was not an early convert then does this mean he was not amongst the first of the Muhajireen which is what the ayah is talking about?

Sorry for all the questions but I'm trying to understand what the ayah is saying.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Rationalist on September 14, 2017, 06:02:18 PM
The 12ers are playing with symantics. The first here refers to all Muhajireen who immigrated  right before the verse was revealed. They are the first before Ansaar.

As for 50 narration, you will have to tell me where the narration is found in Tabari. I have all 40 volumes. Umar himself numbers under 50 in terms of conversations.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on September 14, 2017, 06:39:00 PM
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness --Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

It clearly states 'aswell as those who followed them in goodness'.
So it makes no difference if Abu Bakr & Umar were the first or after 50, as they certainly were amongst the best in terms of goodness in following the first.

They are clearly included in this ayah no doubt.

Who gave up all his wealth for the cause? Abu Bakr.

Who stood against his peers of the Quraysh to take the cause of Islam? Umar.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on September 14, 2017, 06:43:39 PM
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

1) I can't understand how you could mix up between "Muhajirun" and "early converts in Makkah". The term Muhajirun only be used after the muslims migrated to Madinah.

2) Those who migrated i.e. the Muhajirun were not coming to Madinah at once. They were coming in batches for a period of about 8 years (until the conquest of Makkah). After the conquest, no more hijrah as the Prophet (saw) said.

3) The first batch were those who migrated with the Prophet (saw). They were around 70 people including Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Hence, these sahabah were definitely among the first or "the foremost from Muhajirun".
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Farid on September 14, 2017, 07:03:33 PM
According to Sa'eed bin Al Musayyab and Ibn Sireen, verse 9:100 is about the Muhajireen and Ansar that were early enough into Islam that they prayed towards both Jerusalem first then Makkah.

History says that the qibla changed in year 2 AH. So, yes, most of the famous Muhajireen are included here. The main ones that aren't include Al Abbas, Amr bin Al Aas, and Khalid bin Al Waleed.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: confusedshia on September 14, 2017, 09:41:22 PM
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

1) I can't understand how you could mix up between "Muhajirun" and "early converts in Makkah". The term Muhajirun only be used after the muslims migrated to Madinah.

2) Those who migrated i.e. the Muhajirun were not coming to Madinah at once. They were coming in batches for a period of about 8 years (until the conquest of Makkah). After the conquest, no more hijrah as the Prophet (saw) said.

3) The first batch were those who migrated with the Prophet (saw). They were around 70 people including Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Hence, these sahabah were definitely among the first or "the foremost from Muhajirun".

Where can the reports which say Abu Bakr migrated to Medina with the first batch people be located? Are they just in Sunni sources or can this be found in Shia sources too?
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: confusedshia on September 14, 2017, 09:44:34 PM
According to Sa'eed bin Al Musayyab and Ibn Sireen, verse 9:100 is about the Muhajireen and Ansar that were early enough into Islam that they prayed towards both Jerusalem first then Makkah.

History says that the qibla changed in year 2 AH. So, yes, most of the famous Muhajireen are included here. The main ones that aren't include Al Abbas, Amr bin Al Aas, and Khalid bin Al Waleed.

Does Ibn Sireen's view fit into what has been posted above, which is that there were 70 people who migrated to Medina? If so, how does one prove from Sunni and Shia sources that Abu Bakr was indeed amongst these 70 migrants? Because this is what the debate seems to be about. The Shias I have spoken to accept the ayah, but say it only refers to the first batch of migrants (as the brother above has mentioned) but they also say that there is no evidence of Abu Bakr being included amongst the first batch of people that made hijra.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Rationalist on September 14, 2017, 10:03:29 PM
Abi Bakr enterer Madina with the Prophet(sawas), so how is he not part of the first batch?
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: confusedshia on September 14, 2017, 10:09:47 PM
Abi Bakr enterer Madina with the Prophet(sawas), so how is he not part of the first batch?

Where can this story be found?
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: confusedshia on September 14, 2017, 10:22:19 PM
The narration says 5. When did it become 50?

I have located the narration:

Muhammad ibn Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas Narrates: "I asked my father, was Abu Bakr the first of you to become Muslim, he said: No, more than 50 people became muslim before him, but he (Abu Bakr) was the best one of us" Tarikh al-Tabari, vol.2 page 60
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Farid on September 14, 2017, 10:55:05 PM
The exact same page includes quotes saying that he was the FIRST Muslim.

http://islamport.com/w/tkh/Web/2893/531.htm

The one that says fifty became Muslims before him is a fabrication. It includes Ibn Humaid who was a known liar.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: confusedshia on September 15, 2017, 12:32:55 AM
The exact same page includes quotes saying that he was the FIRST Muslim.

http://islamport.com/w/tkh/Web/2893/531.htm

The one that says fifty became Muslims before him is a fabrication. It includes Ibn Humaid who was a known liar.

Thank you.

Does the report say Abu Bakr became the first Muslim or that he became the first male Muslim?
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on September 15, 2017, 02:54:45 AM
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

1) I can't understand how you could mix up between "Muhajirun" and "early converts in Makkah". The term Muhajirun only be used after the muslims migrated to Madinah.

2) Those who migrated i.e. the Muhajirun were not coming to Madinah at once. They were coming in batches for a period of about 8 years (until the conquest of Makkah). After the conquest, no more hijrah as the Prophet (saw) said.

3) The first batch were those who migrated with the Prophet (saw). They were around 70 people including Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Hence, these sahabah were definitely among the first or "the foremost from Muhajirun".

Where can the reports which say Abu Bakr migrated to Medina with the first batch people be located? Are they just in Sunni sources or can this be found in Shia sources too?

It can be found in Twelvers sources too. Abu Bakr (ra) was in the cave when he (ra) accompanied Prophet (saw) migrated to Madinah. Please take your time to read this till the end.

https://gift2shias.com/2012/04/17/abu-bakr-in-the-cave-with-prophet-sallalahu-alaihi-wa-sallam/
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: confusedshia on September 15, 2017, 04:09:49 AM
The first forerunners from the Muhajireen and Ansar as well as those who followed them in goodness--Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him. And He has readied for them gardens under which rivers flow therein to abide forever and ever. That is a great victory} (9:100)

Do Sunnis agree that the above ayah only states that Allah is pleased with the first amongst the Muhajireen, and not the Muhajireen as a whole?

After speaking with some Shias, I have been told that this ayah is only concerned with the first amongst the Muhajireen and not the Muhajireen as a whole. I've also been told that Abu Bakr was not amongst the first of the Mujahireen which can be seen from sources such as the tarikh of tabari which says there were over 50 converts to Islam before Abu Bakr.

I've also been told that Umar was not an early convert either and that many proceeded him such as his own sister.

What is the Sunni response?

Thanks

1) I can't understand how you could mix up between "Muhajirun" and "early converts in Makkah". The term Muhajirun only be used after the muslims migrated to Madinah.

2) Those who migrated i.e. the Muhajirun were not coming to Madinah at once. They were coming in batches for a period of about 8 years (until the conquest of Makkah). After the conquest, no more hijrah as the Prophet (saw) said.

3) The first batch were those who migrated with the Prophet (saw). They were around 70 people including Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Hence, these sahabah were definitely among the first or "the foremost from Muhajirun".

Where can the reports which say Abu Bakr migrated to Medina with the first batch people be located? Are they just in Sunni sources or can this be found in Shia sources too?

It can be found in Twelvers sources too. Abu Bakr (ra) was in the cave when he (ra) accompanied Prophet (saw) migrated to Madinah. Please take your time to read this till the end.

https://gift2shias.com/2012/04/17/abu-bakr-in-the-cave-with-prophet-sallalahu-alaihi-wa-sallam/

Thank you.

What sources does Shaykh al-Tusi rely on? Can this be found in al-Kafi or any other Shia hadith books? If so, I'd love to see them.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Farid on September 15, 2017, 04:10:35 AM
The exact same page includes quotes saying that he was the FIRST Muslim.

http://islamport.com/w/tkh/Web/2893/531.htm

The one that says fifty became Muslims before him is a fabrication. It includes Ibn Humaid who was a known liar.

Thank you.

Does the report say Abu Bakr became the first Muslim or that he became the first male Muslim?

One says male, while others keep it general.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Rationalist on September 15, 2017, 05:23:53 AM
The narration says 5. When did it become 50?

I have located the narration:

Muhammad ibn Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas Narrates: "I asked my father, was Abu Bakr the first of you to become Muslim, he said: No, more than 50 people became muslim before him, but he (Abu Bakr) was the best one of us" Tarikh al-Tabari, vol.2 page 60

Ok I found the narration, and its does exist in volume 6 page 85.

Those who say this: In Humayd-Kinanah b. Jabalah- [1167]
Ibrahim b. Tahman-al-Hajjaj b. al-Hajjaj-Qatadah-Salim b.
Abi al-Ja'd-Muhammad b. Sad: I said to my father, "Was Abu
Bakr the first of them to accept Islam ?" He answered, "No, more
than fifty people accepted Islam before him, but he was the best
Muslim among us."


However, this isn't the only narration Tabari mentioned. Also, even with this narration it doesn't disqualify him as a Muhajir who were praised in the Quran.

Here are other narrations in Tabari about Abi Bakr.

Abu Bakr
Others say that Abu Bakr was the first male to accept Islam.
Those who say this:
Sahl b. Musa al-Razi-'Abd al-Rahman b. Maghra,-Mujalidal-
Sha'bi: I said to Ibn 'Abbas, "Who was the first to accept Islam?"
He answered, " Have you not heard the lines of Hassan b . Thabit
If you call to mind trustworthy men to grieve for them,
mention your brother Abu Bakr and his deeds.


The best of men, the most pious and the most just
after the Prophet, and the most faithful in fulfilling
what he undertook.
The second, the follower, may his tomb be praised,
and the first of men to believe in the prophets.
Said b. 'Anbasah al-Razi-al-Haytham b. 'Adi-Mujalid-al- [1166]
Shabi-Ibn 'Abbas: A similar account.
Ibn Humayd-Yahya b. Wadih-al-Haytham b. 'Adi-Mujalidal-
Shabl-Ibn 'Abbas: A similar account.
Bahr b. Nasr al-Khawlani-'Abdallah b. Wahb-Mu'awiyah b.
Salih-Abu Yahya and Damrah b. Habib and Abu Talhah-Abu
Umanah al-Bahili-'Amr b. 'Abasah: I came to the Messenger of
God when he was staying at 'Ukaz'M and said, "O Messenger of
God, who has followed you in this religion?" He replied, "Two
men have followed me in it, a free man and a slave; Abu Bakr and
Bilal." Then I accepted Islam and reckoned myself at that time to
be one quarter of those who believe in Islam.
Ibn 'Abd al-Rahim al-Barg- Amr b. Abi Salamah-Sadagah-
Nasr b. 'Alqamah-his brother-Ibn 'A'idh-Jubayr b. Nufayr:
Both Abu Dharr and Ibn 'Abasah used to say, "I reckoned myself
to be a quarter of those who believed in Islam, for no one had
accepted Islam before me but the Prophet, Abu Bakr and Bilal."
Neither knew when the other accepted Islam.
Ibn Humayd-Jarir-Mughirah-Ibrahim: The irst to accpt Islam
was Abu Bakr.
Abu Kurayb-Waki'-Shubah-'Amr b. Murrah-Ibrahim al-
Nakha'i: Abu Bakr was the first to accept Islam.
Others say that a number of people accepted Islam before Abu
Bakr.



Now we have narrations which can refute the claim about Abu bakr being the  first to accept Islam, but to accept  that 50 people have accepted Islam before Abi Bakr has not been proven because the narrator doesn't mention who the 50 were. On top of that the narrator says Abi Bakr deeds are the best and doesn't disqualify him the people who were among the first muhajir.

 
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Rationalist on September 15, 2017, 05:27:34 AM
Abi Bakr enterer Madina with the Prophet(sawas), so how is he not part of the first batch?

Where can this story be found?

Remember he was in the cave with the Prophet (pbuh). Refer to Surah 9:40
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Rationalist on September 15, 2017, 05:48:48 AM
The narration says 5. When did it become 50?

I have located the narration:

Muhammad ibn Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas Narrates: "I asked my father, was Abu Bakr the first of you to become Muslim, he said: No, more than 50 people became muslim before him, but he (Abu Bakr) was the best one of us" Tarikh al-Tabari, vol.2 page 60

Ok I found the narration, and its does exist in volume 6 page 85.

Those who say this: In Humayd-Kinanah b. Jabalah- [1167]
Ibrahim b. Tahman-al-Hajjaj b. al-Hajjaj-Qatadah-Salim b.
Abi al-Ja'd
-Muhammad b. Sad: I said to my father, "Was Abu
Bakr the first of them to accept Islam ?" He answered, "No, more
than fifty people accepted Islam before him, but he was the best
Muslim among us."


Here is the same second narrator Salim b.Abi al-Ja'd saying its 5 instead of 50. I believe Tabari, somewhere there has been a type which caused 5 to become 50. This version is found in Imam Suyuti's history book.




Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Link on September 16, 2017, 06:39:48 PM
It refers to Ahlulbayt (as) who are the best of those who race ahead in good deeds from those who emigrated to God and helped God, different verses will emphasize on previous verses, different Surah paraphrase the themes in other Surahs, and your sheer desire to assert it to be other than Ahlulbayt (as) will not do away with this verse being about them, just as your sheer desire of Ulil-Amr being other then leaders God appoints will not do away with the clear flow of Quran and the Quran protecting it's own interpretation.

Sunnis read Quran heedlessly and by their desires - they are far away from God and his religion.  The day they recite it with sincerity and give Sunnah it's proper due, and seek the truth,  Ahlulbayt (as) would be unveiled to them in there from the sorcery they allowed to take over their souls.

Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Rationalist on September 17, 2017, 04:53:01 AM
It refers to Ahlulbayt (as) who are the best of those who race ahead in good deeds from those who emigrated to God and helped God, different verses will emphasize on previous verses, different Surah paraphrase the themes in other Surahs, and your sheer desire to assert it to be other than Ahlulbayt (as) will not do away with this verse being about them, just as your sheer desire of Ulil-Amr being other then leaders God appoints will not do away with the clear flow of Quran and the Quran protecting it's own interpretation.

Sunnis read Quran heedlessly and by their desires - they are far away from God and his religion.  The day they recite it with sincerity and give Sunnah it's proper due, and seek the truth,  Ahlulbayt (as) would be unveiled to them in there from the sorcery they allowed to take over their souls.



No link it doesn't have anything to do with the leadership of Ahlul Bayt. In fact, Imam Jafar from your books agreed with the Sunnis, at till time there were 5 pillars.


Again let's see what Imam Jafar says about the pillars when the Prophet (pbuh) entered Madina. Imam Jafar refutes the asabiyah you are trying to promote day and night.

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from certain persons of his people from Adam
ibn Ishaq from ‘Abd al-Razzaq from ibn Mihran from al-Husayn ibn Maymun
from Muhammad ibn Salim from abu Ja’far, recipient of divine supreme
covenant, who has said the following:

Evidence of this (more serious sins) is the words of Allah, the
Most Majestic, the Most Holy, about them on their being
brought together in fire, “The last group will accuse the first
saying, ‘Lord, they made us go astray. Therefore, double their
torment in the Fire . . .’” (7:38) They will condemn and accuse
each other. They argue in the hope of winning but there will be
no winning, trial or acceptance of excuses and there will be no
way to safety. Such verses and similar other ones were revealed
in Makka. Allah does not send to fire anyone except the pagans.
‘When Allah granted Muhammad permission to leave Makka for
Madina he spoke of Islam having five principles:
‘To testify that no one deserves to be worshipped except Allah,
that Muhammad is His servant and His messenger, that
performing the prayer, paying al-Zakat (charity), Hajj of the
House and fasting in the month of Ramadan are obligatory. ( al Kafi Volume 2,  H 1506, CH 14, h 1)
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Link on September 17, 2017, 07:43:06 PM
The Quran says The people of the book were but commanded to worship God and keep up prayer and give zakat yet we know the most emphasized thing to banisreael was to follow the Messengers after Moses and to help them and believe in them and not mix with their authority who claim religious authority but have no proof.

Quran also summarizes the whole revelation to be paraphrasing in various ways there is "no God but me so will you submit."

The question is what is the means of submission but clear proof and vision from God that is why it also emphasized on the way after Moses which was split into twelve branches linking back to one root, being ways themselves and indeed all the Prophets were one way from one perspective and individually instance of the one and only path in a time.

You are ignorant because you choose to blind yourself and you pay no attention to all the discourses in Quran and do not let the Quran interpret itself with help of the family of Yaseen who are the ears to truly hear the recitation and their words are all light commenting on the Quran in one way or another.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Rationalist on September 17, 2017, 11:42:32 PM


You are ignorant because you choose to blind yourself and you pay no attention to all the discourses in Quran and do not let the Quran interpret itself with help of the family of Yaseen who are the ears to truly hear the recitation and their words are all light commenting on the Quran in one way or another.

No I am not ignorant. I brought proof from your own books. This time it is Imam Jafar guiding me and telling what are the pillars of Islam in relation to verse 9:100. It is you who is creating division by making the world belief that Islam belong to 12 imam only. This is false, because Imam Jafar himself says this is not the case, and strangely the hadith is in al Kafi.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: confusedshia on September 18, 2017, 04:41:38 PM
The exact same page includes quotes saying that he was the FIRST Muslim.

http://islamport.com/w/tkh/Web/2893/531.htm

The one that says fifty became Muslims before him is a fabrication. It includes Ibn Humaid who was a known liar.

Thank you.

Does the report say Abu Bakr became the first Muslim or that he became the first male Muslim?

One says male, while others keep it general.

What is the Sunni response to the following Shia argument on 9:100:

"Allah may have been pleased with first group of muhajireen when 9:100 was revealed, but this does not mean that Allah is enterally pleased with them and they have been promised jannah. Whether they are granted jannah was also dependent on their future deeds, which is why the following ayah was revealed after 9:100:

O you who believe, raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him as in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not} (49:2)

And that Allah never promises jannah to any of the muhajireen in 9:100, only that it has been prepared for them, but again, this is obviously dependent on their future deeds, and can also been shown through other such as 49:2.'

Please let me know what the Sunni answer is to the above.

Thanks
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Hadrami on September 18, 2017, 05:28:11 PM
What is the Sunni response to the following Shia argument on 9:100:

"Allah may have been pleased with first group of muhajireen when 9:100 was revealed, but this does not mean that Allah is enterally pleased with them and they have been promised jannah. Whether they are granted jannah was also dependent on their future deeds, which is why the following ayah was revealed after 9:100:

O you who believe, raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him as in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not} (49:2)

And that Allah never promises jannah to any of the muhajireen in 9:100, only that it has been prepared for them, but again, this is obviously dependent on their future deeds, and can also been shown through other such as 49:2.'

Please let me know what the Sunni answer is to the above.

Thanks
you should tell that shia to come here. Easier for you and everyone
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: MuslimAnswers on September 18, 2017, 07:04:32 PM
^

Seems strange that for Verse 9:100 the excuse of "future deeds" would be brought up by Twelvers [though I am sure Allah knew very well what deeds those promised Paradise would perform in the future, including those of Verse 49:2 and any other deeds], while their interpretation of Verse 33:33 seems to exclude the future possibility for revocation of this purification; though in fact being guaranteed Paradise is in fact a greater blessing than a desire for purification - since it is first of all only a desire, and if we were to concede it as a fact of purification, the Verse itself does not tie purification to Paradise whatsoever (i.e. if we use restrictive Shia-like logic).

To those who say this is outrageous, I say that we have an incident of at least one Shia author, in his lampooning of the Sahaabah, claiming that the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) himself did not know where His Final Abode was, so yes these invalid possibilities can be and are raised by the reasoning of our Shia opponents.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on September 19, 2017, 01:16:18 AM
Seems strange that for Verse 9:100 the excuse of "future deeds" would be brought up by Twelvers [though I am sure Allah knew very well what deeds those promised Paradise would perform in the future, including those of Verse 49:2 and any other deeds]
Indeed.

@confusedshia, after your Shia friend's weird and confusing attempt to disqualify Abu Bakr (ra) from verse 9:100 for not being among "the early converts" failed, ask him what future deeds that disqualified Abu Bakr (ra) from verse 9:100.

Mind you that the verse 49:2 was revealed AFTER the incident between Abu Bakr and Umar (and interestingly, Allah still called them both (ra) "O you who believe").


you should tell that shia to come here. Easier for you and everyone
Agree. Ask him to come here.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Link on September 19, 2017, 06:05:02 AM
though in fact being guaranteed Paradise is in fact a greater blessing than a desire for purification

Slightly off-topic, but that is one reason why the Inama cannot be to restrict the desire God wishes with commands of Islam towards the family because he desires so much more.

Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Hadrami on September 19, 2017, 12:36:46 PM
^

Seems strange that for Verse 9:100 the excuse of "future deeds" would be brought up by Twelvers [though I am sure Allah knew very well what deeds those promised Paradise would perform in the future, including those of Verse 49:2 and any other deeds], while their interpretation of Verse 33:33 seems to exclude the future possibility for revocation of this purification; though in fact being guaranteed Paradise is in fact a greater blessing than a desire for purification - since it is first of all only a desire, and if we were to concede it as a fact of purification, the Verse itself does not tie purification to Paradise whatsoever (i.e. if we use restrictive Shia-like logic).

To those who say this is outrageous, I say that we have an incident of at least one Shia author, in his lampooning of the Sahaabah, claiming that the Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) himself did not know where His Final Abode was, so yes these invalid possibilities can be and are raised by the reasoning of our Shia opponents.

we know why shia came up with that ridiculous excuse is because its about muhajirin & ansar. Just imagine if instead it was ahlulbayt (minus wives of course), they will say it is clearcut proof that they will be in paradise
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: MuslimK on September 19, 2017, 02:24:22 PM
in fact being guaranteed Paradise is in fact a greater blessing than a desire for purification


Excellent point!
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Link on September 19, 2017, 02:37:58 PM
33:33 says all that God desires to keep away from the Household of revelation, is uncleanness, thereby bestowing all value and blessings in the creation and that he desires to only purify them a certain purification which means they are always at the highest level of blessings and purification, and there is no limit to purity, Imam Zainal Abideen (as) teaches regarding the Angels to says "blessings that will increase their purity on top of their purity".

So Ahlulbayt (as) are bestowed constnatly unique level of purification, which means, they are the highest level with Mohammad (pbuh&hf) and the phrase "God only desires to make the uncleanness be away from you O people of the family" also implies that God desires to bless them with no limit and he has commanded creation thereby to help "Indeed God and his Angels bless the Prophet, O You who believe, bless him and salute him a salutation".

According to the Prophet (pbuh&hf), the proper way to bless the Prophet is to bless his family with him and to salute him salutation is to connect their position with that of Abraham and his family and connect that to God's Affair of Majestic Praiseworthiness.

It has an allusion to the words to Sarah regarding Abraham, herself, and her chosen family who are the chosen family of guidance of that time, "God's mercy and blessings upon you O People of the Household, indeed he is Majestic Praiseworthy".

Indeed the Angels blessed the family of Abraham, and likewise, when the bless the Prophet, they blessed his holy family as God only desires to keep the uncleanness away from them.

And Ahlulbayt exceeds all purity found in creation, as God constantly desires to purity only them a certain purification.

There is no comparison between that and being given the good news of paradise on the conditions one remains steadfast and on the course of God's favor.

Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: MuslimK on September 19, 2017, 02:45:15 PM

What is the Sunni response to the following Shia argument on 9:100:

"Allah may have been pleased with first group of muhajireen when 9:100 was revealed, but this does not mean that Allah is enterally pleased with them and they have been promised jannah. Whether they are granted jannah was also dependent on their future deeds, which is why the following ayah was revealed after 9:100:

O you who believe, raise not your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor speak aloud to him as in talk as you speak aloud to one another, lest your deeds should be rendered fruitless while you perceive not} (49:2)

And that Allah never promises jannah to any of the muhajireen in 9:100, only that it has been prepared for them, but again, this is obviously dependent on their future deeds, and can also been shown through other such as 49:2.'

Please let me know what the Sunni answer is to the above.

Thanks

Tell him to prove from the Quran where Allah has said He is no more pleased with Muhajireen and Ansar and paradise is not prepared for them anymore.  He is implying that Allah stopped becoming pleased with them so he has to prove this from the Quran. He is indirectly suggesting Allah didn't know their future deeds.

The only reason he is rejecting these clear verses is because if he accepts them then it means the people praised by Allah and promised paradise gathered around Abubakr and agreed with him as their leader. This will question his entire sect.

And his last argument is even more ridiculous. He claims Allah doesn't promise them any paradise but only says He has prepared for them Paradise. He doesn't make any sense. He admits that Allah prepared for them paradise (after being pleased with them) now he has prove from the Quran that the prepared Paradise is no more prepared.
Title: Re: How do Sunnis understand 9:100?
Post by: Link on September 19, 2017, 03:17:07 PM
Suratal Auli-Imran shows there is the possibility of companions turning on their backs, and compassionately warns them not to be like those people who turn on their backs after clear proofs came to them in the past.