TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Quran-Tafseer => Topic started by: Shia not Rafidi on May 22, 2019, 06:40:14 AM
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السلام علیکم...
brothers in islam,, it took me a while to realise that most of the shia don't believe in Distortion of the Quran
... . BUT.....
What i came to notice is that they from the inside believe that the verses have been mixed up and removed from their original places and injected somewhere else..
for example, The Verse of Purification (which according to shia starts from "Innama Yureedu") , it only and only suits fit with Shia Belief if it is to be considered a separate Ayah and same goes for The Verse of Tabligh
my question is, is anybody who believes thats verses have been a victim of changing their original places, a kafir..??
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السلام علیکم...
brothers in islam,, it took me a while to realise that most of the shia don't believe in Distortion of the Quran
... . BUT.....
What i came to notice is that they from the inside believe that the verses have been mixed up and removed from their original places and injected somewhere else..
for example, The Verse of Purification (which according to shia starts from "Innama Yureedu") , it only and only suits fit with Shia Belief if it is to be considered a separate Ayah and same goes for The Verse of Tabligh
my question is, is anybody who believes thats verses have been a victim of changing their original places, a kafir..??
Walaikumsalam. Such person believes in Tahreef of Quran then. This belief is kufr. But making Tafkir on the particular individual is the job of qualified scholars.
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السلام علیکم...
brothers in islam,, it took me a while to realise that most of the shia don't believe in Distortion of the Quran
... . BUT.....
What i came to notice is that they from the inside believe that the verses have been mixed up and removed from their original places and injected somewhere else..
for example, The Verse of Purification (which according to shia starts from "Innama Yureedu") , it only and only suits fit with Shia Belief if it is to be considered a separate Ayah and same goes for The Verse of Tabligh
my question is, is anybody who believes thats verses have been a victim of changing their original places, a kafir..??
Let me answer this for you in a nutshell. Is the HOLY QURAN assembled/put together in the way and manner in how it was REVEALED? The answer is a big NO. Simple example, you're going to right a book. You start off by words, then sentences, followed by paragraphs and chapters. And some books go further by having editions and volumes. Now a publisher takes all your notes and turns it into a book and publishes it. But not in the exact manner according to the way you've written it. What would you expect especially from those who read it. What suppose to be over there is over here and vice versa. Come on, puts some sense and logic into it. Allah knows best!
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Let me answer this for you in a nutshell. Is the HOLY QURAN assembled/put together in the way and manner in how it was REVEALED? The answer is a big NO. Simple example, you're going to right a book. You start off by words, then sentences, followed by paragraphs and chapters. And some books go further by having editions and volumes. Now a publisher takes all your notes and turns it into a book and publishes it. But not in the exact manner according to the way you've written it. What would you expect especially from those who read it. What suppose to be over there is over here and vice versa. Come on, puts some sense and logic into it. Allah knows best!
This fool reminds me of that old senile Shia man who shows up to Speakers Corner (along with Abu Karar) and gets his jaw shattered every time. "Brother, there is kisa around Ali and his children, there is kisa around Ka'aba, come on, use logic".
He was screaming that point to Maulana Abdul Haleem and asked the Maulana why there is kisa over the Ka'aba. The Maulana replied, "because the Ka'aba is cold". I laughed for an entire minute. The senile fool left without saying a word!
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This fool reminds me of that old senile Shia man who shows up to Speakers Corner (along with Abu Karar) and gets his jaw shattered every time. "Brother, there is kisa around Ali and his children, there is kisa around Ka'aba, come on, use logic".
He was screaming that point to Maulana Abdul Haleem and asked the Maulana why there is kisa over the Ka'aba. The Maulana replied, "because the Ka'aba is cold". I laughed for an entire minute. The senile fool left without saying a word!
Could you speak sane please. Can't understand a word. Don't know what you're on about.
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Let me answer this for you in a nutshell. Is the HOLY QURAN assembled/put together in the way and manner in how it was REVEALED? The answer is a big NO.
That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner. And the one who disagrees and thinks that Sahaba intentionally or unintentionally arranged it incorrectly, goes against the chronological order the verses were revealed, then such a person hold a Kufria belief in our view.
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Now a publisher takes all your notes and turns it into a book and publishes it. But not in the exact manner according to the way you've written it
wait wait wait,, why would he do that bruh..?? after I've arranged all my notes the way i like, why would he be so dishonest in publishing it..?? your assumption only fits on it if we are to consider that publisher a treacherous and dishonest person yeah..?
letme clear it, Qur'an are the notes written down by Prophet PBUH and he arranged them in proper order, Sahaba are the Publishers right.? ok so where's the proof they didn't publish it according to the exact order the Prophet PBUH arranged it..
sorry for my bad English
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That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner. And the one who disagrees and thinks that Sahaba intentionally or unintentionally arranged it incorrectly, goes against the chronological order the verses were revealed, then such a person hold a Kufria belief in our view.
"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
Any references on this. If the Prophet s.a.w ordered the Qur'an to be arranged in this way then what about the following;
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :
Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit
'Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts......'
Notice the following;
"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"
What did Umar say;
"Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project"
Umar didn’t say that it had to be done because the Prophet s.a.w ordered it.
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"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
Any references on this. If the Prophet s.a.w ordered the Qur'an to be arranged in this way then what about the following;
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :
Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit
'Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts......'
Notice the following;
"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"
What did Umar say;
"Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project"
Umar didn’t say that it had to be done because the Prophet s.a.w ordered it.
find your answer in the above given example of yours.. all that has been done is to convert it into a book form.. what's so surprising about this..??
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"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
Any references on this. If the Prophet s.a.w ordered the Qur'an to be arranged in this way then what about the following;
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :
Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit
'Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts......'
Notice the following;
"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"
What did Umar say;
"Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project"
Umar didn’t say that it had to be done because the Prophet s.a.w ordered it.
Your arguments were answered by your own Scholar.
https://youtu.be/A2-i3GIpejE
Watch from 29:30 to 31:00.
And the example you gave itself is your refutation, because people knew Quran by heart, which means its arrangement was known to Muslims. Hence they memorized it.
Which strengthens our view that, it's a Kufria belief to claim that verses have been incorrectly arranged deliberately.
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people knew Quran by heart, which means its arrangement was known to Muslims. Hence they memorized it.
there you go 👌
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find your answer in the above given example of yours.. all that has been done is to convert it into a book form.. what's so surprising about this..??
"all that has been done is to convert it into a book form"
Not on the orders of the Prophet s.a.w. Why didn't the Prophet s.a.w have it done in his lifetime or ordered it to be done.
Has it been converted into a book in the way and manner it was revealed. NO. Take any book and rearrange it, a sentence or two from this paragraph and stick it over there, a paragraph from this chapter and stick it over there etc and vice versa, then tell me the book will still LOOK and MEAN the same. This is what's surprising about it. Time to wake up. Open your mind.
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"all that has been done is to convert it into a book form"
Not on the orders of the Prophet s.a.w. Why didn't the Prophet s.a.w have it done in his lifetime or ordered it to be done.
Has it been converted into a book in the way and manner it was revealed. NO. Take any book and rearrange it, a sentence or two from this paragraph and stick it over there, a paragraph from this chapter and stick it over there etc and vice versa, then tell me the book will still LOOK and MEAN the same. This is what's surprising about it. Time to wake up. Open your mind.
Quran is kalaam(speech of Allah) it wasn’t revealed in form of a book or tablets. So even if it wasn’t present in a complete book form , but only in the memory of believers , still it is sufficient as an evidence. And yes the arranged of verses regardless of the book , was from the Prophet(saws).
So you need to make tawbah from kufria belief you are defending. And open your eyes to see the kufr you are defending with your foolish and dumb arguments.
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Quran is kalaam(speech of Allah) it wasn’t revealed in form of a book or tablets. So even if it wasn’t present in a complete book form , but only in the memory of believers , still it is sufficient as an evidence. And yes the arranged of verses regardless of the book , was from the Prophet(saws).
So you need to make tawbah from kufria belief you are defending. And open your eyes to see the kufr you are defending with your foolish and dumb arguments.
Foolish and dumb........you sure got that right bro 😜👍👍
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Quran is kalaam(speech of Allah) it wasn’t revealed in form of a book or tablets. So even if it wasn’t present in a complete book form , but only in the memory of believers , still it is sufficient as an evidence. And yes the arranged of verses regardless of the book , was from the Prophet(saws).
So you need to make tawbah from kufria belief you are defending. And open your eyes to see the kufr you are defending with your foolish and dumb arguments.
You need to stop accusing others of kufr just because people have different views than yours. And then stop jumping up and down when they talk with logic and reason
and you are just narrow minded and follow the herd. Open your mind and think rationally.
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Foolish and dumb........you sure got that right bro 😜👍👍
Of course he's got it right. In your case that is. That's the only language he speaks and you understand. A logical argument from him and you would be wrong. 😁
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Of course he's got it right. In your case that is. That's the only language he speaks and you understand. A logical argument from him and you would be wrong. 😁
You haven’t got an argument or logic all you do is lie by repeatedly propagating falsehoods without authenticity and when asked to provide such you stay SILENT..........that is just DUMB!
temporarily unable or unwilling to speak.
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"
synonyms: speechless, tongue-tied, wordless, silent, at a loss for words, voiceless, inarticulate, taciturn, uncommunicative, untalkative, tight-lipped, close-mouthed, saying nothing; informalmum
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"
😉
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You need to stop accusing others of kufr just because people have different views than yours. And then stop jumping up and down when they talk with logic and reason
and you are just narrow minded and follow the herd. Open your mind and think rationally.
Obviously a Kufria view differ with proper Islamic view. But it falls under the category of kufr, that's why it is called Kufria view. And you were refuted by your scholar, who refuted the stupidity you utter. For that, you have nothing left academic to argue with, so you want to just troll with your silly excuses.
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Has it been converted into a book in the way and manner it was revealed. NO. Take any book and rearrange it, a sentence or two from this paragraph and stick it over there, a paragraph from this chapter and stick it over there etc and vice versa, then tell me the book will still LOOK and MEAN the same. This is what's surprising about it. Time to wake up. Open your mind.
Are you saying the quran verses that we have now are scrambled all over the place?
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You haven’t got an argument or logic all you do is lie by repeatedly propagating falsehoods without authenticity and when asked to provide such you stay SILENT..........that is just DUMB!
temporarily unable or unwilling to speak.
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"
synonyms: speechless, tongue-tied, wordless, silent, at a loss for words, voiceless, inarticulate, taciturn, uncommunicative, untalkative, tight-lipped, close-mouthed, saying nothing; informalmum
"they stood dumb while the attacker poured out a stream of abuse"
😉
What ever 😊
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Has it been converted into a book in the way and manner it was revealed. NO. Take any book and rearrange it, a sentence or two from this paragraph and stick it over there, a paragraph from this chapter and stick it over there etc and vice versa, then tell me the book will still LOOK and MEAN the same. This is what's surprising about it. Time to wake up. Open your mind.
So in short you believe alQuran "sentences & paragraphs" have been tampered to change the "LOOK and MEAN". That is belief in tahrif which makes you a KKSK
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So in short you believe alQuran "sentences & paragraphs" have been tampered to change the "LOOK and MEAN". That is belief in tahrif which makes you a KKSK
Don't deliberately twist things. You know what I mean.
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Your arguments were answered by your own Scholar.
https://youtu.be/A2-i3GIpejE
Watch from 29:30 to 31:00.
And the example you gave itself is your refutation, because people knew Quran by heart, which means its arrangement was known to Muslims. Hence they memorized it.
Which strengthens our view that, it's a Kufria belief to claim that verses have been incorrectly arranged deliberately.
I'm talking to you and asking and answering you. So lets stick to that.
This is what you said in post #5;
"That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
You claim the Prophet s.a.w was the one to arrange it in this manner. BACK IT UP!
Here's my reference that the Prophet s.a.w did not order it to be arranged in this manner.
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :
Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit
'Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts......'
Notice this bit;
"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project"
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I'm talking to you and asking and answering you. So lets stick to that.
This is what you said in post #5;
"That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
You claim the Prophet s.a.w was the one to arrange it in this manner. BACK IT UP!
Here's my reference that the Prophet s.a.w did not order it to be arranged in this manner.
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 :
Narrated by Zaid bin Thabit
'Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts......'
Notice this bit;
"Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project"
A simple question. Does Quran in physical form being not arranged defies that it can be arranged in and memorized in verbal form ?
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A simple question. Does Quran in physical form being not arranged defies that it can be arranged in and memorized in verbal form ?
Stop diverting and explain yourself.
This is what you said in post #5;
"That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
Here are your specific words based on your claim.
"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws).
"In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
BACK IT UP! Don't RUN. Either admit you've got it completely wrong or BACK ON UP. You gents have been twisting and turning then ducking and diving for too long now. EXPLAIN YOURSELF!
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Stop diverting and explain yourself.
This is what you said in post #5;
"That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
Here are your specific words based on your claim.
"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws).
"In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
BACK IT UP! Don't RUN. Either admit you've got it completely wrong or BACK ON UP. You gents have been twisting and turning then ducking and diving for too long now. EXPLAIN YOURSELF!
It seems you have realized the foolishness in your claims that’s why you say that a very relevant question is diversion.
Because the example you are using is misunderstood by you. It has two aspects in it. One is physical collection of Quran. Another is verbal memorization which was done by huffadh who were getting killed in battles. You are using the portion which talks about physical collection, which wasn’t done by Prophet(saws) , but you are turning a blind eye to the fact that the verbal preservation existed prior to that, that’s why they were concerned with the death of huffadh.
When we remind you of this simple fact , you are losing your mind.
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It seems you have realized the foolishness in your claims that’s why you say that a very relevant question is diversion.
Because the example you are using is misunderstood by you. It has two aspects in it. One is physical collection of Quran. Another is verbal memorization which was done by huffadh who were getting killed in battles. You are using the portion which talks about physical collection, which wasn’t done by Prophet(saws) , but you are turning a blind eye to the fact that the verbal preservation existed prior to that, that’s why they were concerned with the death of huffadh.
When we remind you of this simple fact , you are losing your mind.
Ooops! Twist and turns again. Don't be arrogant and stubborn. Just admit you got it wrong. 😊 There's nothing hesitant about that.
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Ooops! Twist and turns again. Don't be arrogant and stubborn. Just admit you got it wrong. 😊 There's nothing hesitant about that.
See you don’t have any rational answer for my explanation of the hadeeth you try to use in your favour due to your misunderstanding but it back fired .
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See you don’t have any rational answer for my explanation of the hadeeth you try to use in your favour due to your misunderstanding but it back fired .
This is what you're running from,
This is what you said in post #5;
"That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
Here are your specific words based on your claim.
"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws).
"In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
BACK IT UP! Don't RUN. Either admit you've got it completely wrong or BACK IT UP. You gents have been twisting and turning then ducking and diving for too long now. EXPLAIN YOURSELF!
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This is what you're running from,
This is what you said in post #5;
"That's true. But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws). In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
Here are your specific words based on your claim.
"But the way Quranic verses and Chapters are arranged today are as per the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saws).
"In other words he was the one who ordered it to be arranged in this manner"
BACK IT UP! Don't RUN. Either admit you've got it completely wrong or BACK IT UP. You gents have been twisting and turning then ducking and diving for too long now. EXPLAIN YOURSELF!
Praise be to Allaah.
The fact there is scholarly consensus, and many texts stating the order of aayahs in one soorah, that is very well known. The consensus was reported by many scholars, including Al-Zarkashi in al-Burhaan and Abu Ja’far, who said: “The order of the aayahs in their soorahs came about because this is how it was instituted by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and there is no dispute among the Muslims with regard to this matter.”
The texts regarding this matter include the following:
The report narrated by Ahmad, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, al-Nisaa’i, Ibn Hibbaan and al-Haakim from Ibn ‘Abbaas, who said: “I said to ‘Uthmaan, ‘What made you put al-Anfaal which is one of the Mathaani, next to Baraa’ah [al-Tawbah], which is one of the Mi’een? Why did you not put the line Bismillaah ir-Rahmaan ir-Raheem in between them when you put it at the beginning of the rest of al-Sab’ al-Tiwaal [the long seven soorahs]?” ‘Uthmaan said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to receive revelation of soorahs with many aayahs. When they were revealed, he would call his scribes and tell them, ‘Put these aayahs in the soorah where such-and-such is mentioned.’ Al-Anfaal was one of the first soorahs to be revealed in Madeenah, and Baraa’ah (al-Tawbah) was one of the last parts of the Qur’aan to be revealed. Its stories were similar to the stories mentioned in al-Anfaal, so it was thought that it was part of it. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was taken [i.e., died] without explaining whether it was indeed part of it, so they were put next to one another, and the line Bismillaahi ir’Rahmaan ir’Raheem was not written between them, and it [al-Tawbah] was put among the Sab’ al-Tiwaal [seven long soorahs].” (Al-Haakim said: its isnaad is saheeh, and al-Dhahabi agreed with him. Al-Mustadrak, 2/330)
Ahmad narrated in al-Musnad (4/218) with a hasan isnaad from ‘Uthmaan ibn Abi’l-‘Aas that he said: “I was sitting with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he fixed his gaze on something, then lowered his gaze until he was almost looking at the ground, then he gazed at something. He said, ‘Jibreel (peace be upon him) came to me and told me to put this aayah in this place in this soorah:
“Verily, Allâh enjoins Al-‘Adl (i.e. justice and worshipping none but Allâh Alone — Islâmic Monotheism) and Al-Ihsân [i.e. to be patient in performing your duties to Allâh, totally for Allâh’s sake and in accordance with the Sunnah (legal ways) of the Prophet in a perfect manner], and giving (help) to kith and kin (i.e. all that Allâh has ordered you to give them, e.g., wealth, visiting, looking after them, or any other kind of help), and forbids Al-Fahshâ’ (i.e. all evil deeds, e.g. illegal sexual acts, disobedience of parents, polytheism, to tell lies, to give false witness, to kill a life without right), and Al-Munkar (i.e. all that is prohibited by Islâmic law: polytheism of every kind, disbelief and every kind of evil deeds), and Al-Baghy (i.e. all kinds of oppression). He admonishes you, that you may take heed.” [al-Nahl 16:90 – interpretation of the meaning].’”
Al-Bukhaari narrated in al-Saheeh (no. 4536) that Ibn Abi Maleekah said: “Ibn al-Zubayr said: ‘I said to ‘Uthmaan, “This aayah that is in al-Baqarah (interpretation of the meaning), ‘And those of you who die and leave wives behind them … And those of you who die and leave behind wives should bequeath for their wives a year’s maintenance and residence without turning them out’ [al-Baqarah 2:234-240] has been abrogated by the other, so why are you writing it down it down?” He said, “Leave it as it is, my nephew, I will not change anything from its place.”’”
Muslim narrated (no. 1617) that ‘Umar said: “I did not ask the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about anything more than I asked him about al-Kalaalah [those who die leaving neither ascendants nor descendents as heirs], until he poked me in the chest with his finger and said, “Is not aayat al-sayf [?] at the end of Soorat al-Nisa’ enough for you?”
There are also the ahaadeeth about the aayahs at the end of Soorat al-Baqarah.
Muslim narrated (no. 809) from Abu al-Darda’ that whoever memorizes the first ten aayahs of Soorat al-Kahf will be protected from the Dajjaal; according to another version, whoever recites the last ten verses will be protected.
The Prophet’s recitation of various soorahs in the presence of his companions indicates that the order of their aayahs is something that was instituted and commanded by him, and that the Sahaabah did not put the aayahs in a different order from that in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to recite them. The reports to that effect reach the level of Mutawaatir.
Al-Qaadi Abu Bakr said in al-Intisaar: “The order of the aayahs is something that is obligatory and binding. Jibreel used to say (to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)), ‘Put such and such an aayah in such and such a place.’”
He also said: “What we think is that all of the Qur’aan which Allaah revealed and commanded that it should be written down, and which was not abrogated after being revealed, is that which is contained between the covers of the Mus-haf of ‘Uthmaan, and that there is nothing lacking or added to it. Its order is the same as that commanded by Allaah, may He be exalted, and instituted by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Nobody has moved any aayah backwards or forwards. The Ummah learned from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) the order of the aayahs of each soorah properly, just as they learned from him the correct pronunciation and recitation.”
Al-Baghawi said in Sharh al-Sunnah: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to instruct his companions and teach them what was revealed to him of the Qur’aan in the order in which it appears in our Mus-hafs now, the order which Jibreel taught him. When each aayah was revealed, Jibreel would tell him, this aayah is to be written after such and such an aayah in Soorah such and such. Thus it is clear that the efforts of the Sahaabah were limited solely to gathering the Qur’aan in one place, not to arranging its order. The Qur’aan is written on al-Lawh al-Mahfooz in this order, then Allaah sent it down in its entirety to the first heaven, whence it was revealed in stages as it was needed, and the order in which it was revealed is not the order in which it is recited.”
With regard to the order of Soorahs, was this also instituted by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or was this the ijtihaad of the Sahaabah? With regard to this question, there were differences among the scholars. The majority of scholars, including Maalik and al-Qaadi Abu Bakr, according to one of his two opinions, favoured the second opinion.
Ibn Faaris said: “There were two aspects to the compilation of the Qur’aan. One was putting the soorahs in a certain order, such as putting al-Sab’ al-Tiwaal (the seven long soorahs) first, and following them with the Mi’een, which is what the Sahaabah did. The second aspect is the compilation of the aayahs within the soorahs. This was instituted by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who recited them as he was told to by Jibreel, on the command of his Lord. On this basis the salaf differed as to the order in which the soorahs should appear. Some of them put them in order of revelation, which was the mus-haf of ‘Ali, which started with Iqra’ (al-‘Alaq), then al-Muddaththir, then Noon (al-Qalam), then al-Muzzammil, and so on. The Mus-haf of Ibn Mas’ood started with al-Baqarah, then al-Nisa’, then Aal ‘Imraan, with other major differences. The Mus-haf of Ubayy was similar.”
Al-Karmaani said in al-Burhaan: the order of the soorahs as it is now is the same as that in al-Lawh al-Mahfooz which is with Allaah. This is the order in which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to review the soorahs of the Qur’aan he had received so far with Jibreel each year. In the year in which he died, he reviewed it with him twice, and the last aayahs to be revealed were (interpretation of the meaning): ‘And be afraid of the Day when you shall be brought back to Allaah…’ [al-Baqarah 2:281]. Jibreel commanded the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to put this between the aayahs dealing with riba and those dealing with loans.”
Al-Zarkashi said in al-Burhaan: “The difference between the two views is one of wording. Those who support the second view say that it was taught to them so that they could learn the reasons of Revelation and the sequence of the words. Hence Maalik said that they compiled the Qur’aan according to what they had heard from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as well as saying that the order of the soorahs was the product of their ijtihaad. He said that the dispute boils down to one question which is: was this a verbal instruction of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or were they merely referring to what he used to do, which would give them room for ijtihaad.”
Al-Bayhaqi said in al-Madkhil: “At the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), the soorahs and aayahs of the Qur’aan were in this order, except for al-Anfaal and Baraa’ah (al-Tawbah), as we see from the hadeeth of ‘Uthmaan referred to above.”
Ibn ‘Atiyah said: “The order of many of the soorahs was known during the lifetime of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), such as the seven long soorahs, those that begin with Ha’-Meem, and al-Mufassal. With regard to the others, it may be the case that it was left for the Ummah to determine their order after he died.”
Abu Ja’far said: “The reports support most of what Ibn ‘Atiyah said, and a little is left which is open to debate, such as the hadeeth, ‘Recite the two shining ones, al-Baqarah and Aal ‘Imraan.’” (Reported by Muslim, no. 804).
Al-Bukhaari narrated (no. 4739) that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Bani Israa’eel (al-Israa’), al-Kahf, Maryam, Ta-Ha and al-Anbiya’, these are among the earliest and most beautiful soorahs and they are my treasures,” (meaning, these are among the earliest I recited).
Abu Ja’far al-Nahhaas al-Mukhtaar said that the soorahs were compiled in this order from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) because of the hadeeth of Waathilah, “In place of the Tawraat I was given the seven long soorahs.” He said: “This hadeeth indicates that the order of the Qur’aan was taken from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).
Ibn Hajar said, “the fact that the soorahs , or most of them, are in a given order does not contradict the idea that this was instituted by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). What proves that this was instituted by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the report narrated by Ahmad and Abu Dawood from Aws ibn Hudhayfah, who said: ‘We asked the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in the morning, “How did you write down the Qur’aan in chapters?” They said, “We wrote it down in chapters of six soorahs, five soorahs, seven soorahs, nine soorahs, eleven soorahs and thirteen soorahs, and the chapter of al-Mufassal, from Qaaf until the end. This indicates that the order of the soorahs – as it appears in the Mus-haf now – existed at the time of the Messenger of Allaah, or it is possible that what was known in order at that time was Hizb al-Mufassal specifically, which is not the case with the rest.”
See al-Itqaan fi ‘Uloom al-Qur’aan by al-Suyooti, 1/62-65).
And Allaah knows best.
Source:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/3214/the-order-of-soorahs-and-aayahs-in-the-quraan
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Are you saying the quran verses that we have now are scrambled all over the place?
You know what I'm saying. The copy of the Quran we have with us today is not according to and in the manner in the way it was revealed. How it was assembled and put together has got absolutely nothing to do with the Prophet s.a.w. Take any book and rearrange it. Take a few words out of one sentence and stick it into another. Take one sentence out of one paragraph and stick it into another paragraph. Take one paragraph out of one chapter and stick it into another. Mix it all up but in a way where it doesn't look strange, odd and peculiar. Plan and organise it well then tell me the meaning and what you will understand and take from it will exactly be the same as the original. 😊 Just pointing something out.
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You know what I'm saying. The copy of the Quran we have with us today is not according to and in the manner in the way it was revealed. How it was assembled and put together has got absolutely nothing to do with the Prophet s.a.w. Take any book and rearrange it. Take a few words out of one sentence and stick it into another. Take one sentence out of one paragraph and stick it into another paragraph. Take one paragraph out of one chapter and stick it into another. Mix it all up but in a way where it doesn't look strange, odd and peculiar. Plan and organise it well then tell me the meaning and what you will understand and take from it will exactly be the same as the original. 😊 Just pointing something out.
The belief you hold isn’t the belief of Muslims. It’s a Kufria belief, that will lead you straight to hell forever.
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The point that Bto Noor us-Sunnah made is very rational and academic..
Prophet PBUH sent many Sahabas to far away cities to teach the Qur'an and he himself used to listen the Qur’an by Ibn Masood..
what is in the book form today is the same that was in the minds of Sahaba and what was in the the minds of Sahaba was the same Prophet PBUH had in his mind..
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The belief you hold isn’t the belief of Muslims. It’s a Kufria belief, that will lead you straight to hell forever.
I'm not talking about belief, I'm talking about facts based on reality. Is the copy of the Quran we have with us today assembled/arranged/put together in the way and manner it was revealed? The verses were revealed over a 23 year period approximately. It wasn't revealed in the form of a book. Nor did it exist in the form of a book. Nor was it in the form of a book during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Nor did he advise it to be put in the form of a book, when he had time to have it done or at least order it to be done. Don't twist and turn these important questions and try and make me look bad when the truth is that you're having problems answering them truthfully and honestly.
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The point that Bto Noor us-Sunnah made is very rational and academic..
Prophet PBUH sent many Sahabas to far away cities to teach the Qur'an and he himself used to listen the Qur’an by Ibn Masood..
what is in the book form today is the same that was in the minds of Sahaba and what was in the the minds of Sahaba was the same Prophet PBUH had in his mind..
And the point that I'm making is also very rational and academic. Just because it differs with him he sees me on the wrong. That's the problem with people like this that they consider themselves right and the other wrong. That's how they see everything and take everyone.
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The belief you hold isn’t the belief of Muslims. It’s a Kufria belief, that will lead you straight to hell forever.
I'm not talking about belief, I'm talking about facts based on reality. Is the copy of the Quran we have with us today assembled/arranged/put together in the way and manner it was revealed? The verses were revealed over a 23 year period approximately. It wasn't revealed in the form of a book. Nor did it exist in the form of a book. Nor was it in the form of a book during the Prophet's s.a.w time. Nor did he advise it to be put in the form of a book, when he had time to have it done or at least order it to be done. Don't twist and turn these important questions and try and make me look bad when the truth is that you're having problems answering them truthfully and honestly.
So your argument has narrowed down to Quran being in book form, while right from starting this isn’t my claim. My claim is that Quran regardless of it being in physical form, it was memorized by people in the order it was arranged by Prophet(saws). And the arranged of verses that we had in the book now is the same as Prophet(saws) had shown to the people. That’s why I say your belief is Blasphemous.
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So your argument has narrowed down to Quran being in book form, while right from starting this isn’t my claim. My claim is that Quran regardless of it being in physical form, it was memorized by people in the order it was arranged by Prophet(saws). And the arranged of verses that we had in the book now is the same as Prophet(saws) had shown to the people. That’s why I say your belief is Blasphemous.
Relax relax. That's fine.
"in the order it was arranged by Prophet(saws). And the arranged of verses that we had in the book now is the same as Prophet(saws) had shown to the people"
NOW PROVE IT.
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Relax relax. That's fine.
"in the order it was arranged by Prophet(saws). And the arranged of verses that we had in the book now is the same as Prophet(saws) had shown to the people"
NOW PROVE IT.
Refer this:
https://islamqa.info/en/answers/3214/the-order-of-soorahs-and-aayahs-in-the-quraan