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Qur'an Challenge to Shias

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Farid

Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« on: March 30, 2016, 06:25:50 AM »
Alsalam alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Here are a couple of questions to my Shia brothers who believe that they are holding on to the Thaqalayn:

The Qur'an is taught throughout the Muslim world through various recitations. The average Muslim recites according to the Mus-haf which is written in the recitation of Hafs from Asim. Why do you, my Shi'ee friend, trust in this recitation, and why do accept this recitation while rejecting the others?

Be aware that Ayatollah Al Khoei says that this recitation, as well as all other recitations, are not reliable.

If none of the recitations are reliable, then how is it possible to hold onto the Thaqalayn?!

Isn't it time to accept the greater of the two weighty things by becoming a Sunni?

If any of the above is unclear, then do not hesitate to ask for an explanation.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 06:27:45 AM by Farid »

Optimus Prime

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2016, 11:45:38 AM »
Asalamualaikum Farid.

I have a few questions. Can I ask them in this thread or what?

Farid

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2016, 12:20:45 PM »
PM bro. ;)

This is for Shias.

Optimus Prime

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2016, 01:05:55 PM »
Sent.

Hani

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2016, 08:28:30 PM »
shuldn't this be on SC?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Farid

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2016, 09:02:38 PM »
There are more lurkers here than you think.

88 views already man. Quite a few Shias scratching their heads as we speak.

Hani

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2016, 10:48:41 PM »
difference is on SC they'll be forced to respond.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimAnswers

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2016, 05:05:11 AM »

Be aware that Ayatollah Al Khoei says that this recitation, as well as all other recitations, are not reliable.


For the benefit of all, is there a "compendium" of what the various contemporary Shia scholars say about the recitations, whether Hafs or others?

Farid

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2016, 09:20:30 AM »
Not that i am aware of.

Hani

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2016, 06:22:53 PM »
I repeat, this should be on SC, someone PLS post there.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimAnswers

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2016, 08:11:50 PM »
Not that i am aware of.

It is better to have one, since the laymen Shia make up their own theories on the go about what the recitations are, and we should at least have a good number of quotes of modern Shia scholars about this matter (whether totally in line with the Sunni view, lukewarm towards it, or totally against it, whatever may be the case).

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2016, 04:46:46 AM »
Wa alaikum as salaam.

Please provide the reference for Sayyed Al Khoie's opinion and the translations he deems not reliable and the reason for it.
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Farid

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2016, 08:37:23 AM »


2- Al-Khoei Believes that the Qu’ran cannot be used for Religious Rulings!

This chapter was never translated by the Shia website but can be found in the original work on page 164. (Al-A’alami Publishing House, Third Edition: 1974)

After a lengthy chapter discussing the various recitations of the Qur’an, Al-Khoei argues that none of them are reliable. This is extremely problematic since this refers to all the diacritical marks found in the Qur’an and all that is left is the shapes of the letters.

He explains:

“In truth, the recitations hold no evidence and cannot be used for the extraction of religious rulings. The evidence of this is that each one of the reciters may have erred, and there is no evidence from the intellect or the revelation that we should follow a specific recitation.”

Al-Khoei explains (p. 165 – Arabic edition):

“The reason that the reciters varied in their recitations is because the masahif (copies of the Qur’an) that have been to the lands did not include diacritical marks, and this strengthens it (the view that the reciters recited the Qur’an from their own ijtihad.)”

He also says (p. 124 – Arabic edition) after explaining that the reasons of preserving the Qur’an are plenty and available, and that which is in such a condition needs to be mutawatir in its nature. He adds:

“…and whatever arrives only from the path of ahaad surely cannot be from the Qur’an.”

From the above, we come to the conclusion that Al-Khoei firmly believes that the Qur’an’s diacritical marks have all been added to the Qur’an by fallible men, and that there is no way of determining which recitation is correct. Due to this, one cannot extract rulings from the Qur’an. Of course, Al-Khoei does not explain this, but one understands that the only way of extracting rulings from the Qur’an is if the infallible Imam extracts the rulings from a verse, or speaks of a verse in a context in which a ruling can be derived.

Al-Khoei (p. 167 – Arabic edition) finally admits that the intellect would cause one to re-read the Qur’an, one recitation at a time, in order to encompass every verse of a surah. However, Al-Khoei asserts, this is nullified by the narration of the Imams who says that it is permissible to recite with these Sunni recitations (even if they are flawed).

The two above views that Al-Khoei shares regarding the Qur’an are self-destructive. His purpose from writing this book was to defend the Shia view of the Qur’an, but his slip-ups in a couple of paragraph have exposed his beliefs.

Taken from my article:

http://twelvershia.net/2015/09/19/response-to-the-collection-and-preservation-of-the-quran/

Link

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2016, 05:05:24 PM »
How would becoming Sunni automatically make them all reliable?

For example, there is Ilyaseen Il Yaseen and Auli Yaseen.

There is sometimes in the different Qariats aside from the vowels, different words too, that is sometimes the Qariats have more then just different vowels. And sometimes the vowels change the meaning...for example to fight or kill.

I would say you study all recitations as possible.  If you don't know which one of them is true leave it to the one who knows the unseen. 

If there is ahadith about different recitations give them weight in the sense if it makes the Surah more exalted and is more logical then accept it but don't rely on it as 100% knowledge.

If we want to get technical, Sunnis don't even know if Bismillah is part of the Quran in the sense does it actually change the meaning of Surahs....

They don't know if is part of a Surah or just a formality. And they differ on whether one should recite in Salah or not, and hence differ on what consists of the seven mathani, if the first aya is one of them or not.

This is while the bismallah verses in beginning of chapters except for one, can all have a super exalted meaning if you make it not a formality but part of the sentence. Then there is an entire theme in Quran about the name of God and it's reality.

At the end, we all have access to various Qariats and ahadith and reason. And the Quran is meant to be a guidance, and there is guidance to be found with reflection upon it.

And no doubt it calls to the family of Mohammad so being a Sunni would be abandoning the Quran anyways.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Optimus Prime

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2016, 05:21:52 PM »
How would becoming Sunni automatically make them all reliable?

For example, there is Ilyaseen Il Yaseen and Auli Yaseen.

There is sometimes in the different Qariats aside from the vowels, different words too, that is sometimes the Qariats have more then just different vowels. And sometimes the vowels change the meaning...for example to fight or kill.

I would say you study all recitations as possible.  If you don't know which one of them is true leave it to the one who knows the unseen. 

If there is ahadith about different recitations give them weight in the sense if it makes the Surah more exalted and is more logical then accept it but don't rely on it as 100% knowledge.

If we want to get technical, Sunnis don't even know if Bismillah is part of the Quran in the sense does it actually change the meaning of Surahs....

They don't know if is part of a Surah or just a formality. And they differ on whether one should recite in Salah or not, and hence differ on what consists of the seven mathani, if the first aya is one of them or not.

This is while the bismallah verses in beginning of chapters except for one, can all have a super exalted meaning if you make it not a formality but part of the sentence. Then there is an entire theme in Quran about the name of God and it's reality.

At the end, we all have access to various Qariats and ahadith and reason. And the Quran is meant to be a guidance, and there is guidance to be found with reflection upon it.

And no doubt it calls to the family of Mohammad so being a Sunni would be abandoning the Quran anyways.



How about arranging a date with us, so we can all discuss your points?

Farid

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2016, 05:45:00 PM »
So which recitation do you recite in Link? And are all the recitations from Allah or do the recitations exist because of mistakes from the recitors?


Ibn Yahya

Re: Qur'an Challenge to Shias
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2016, 06:41:02 PM »
There are Dha'if Sunni chains certainly. The point is really that there aren't any Shi'i chains in the first place to even authenticate.

 

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