TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Quran-Tafseer => Topic started by: Muhammad Habib on February 12, 2015, 07:40:38 PM
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Shia Mufasir Hussain Bakhsh Jara in his Tafseer Anwar_ul_najaf Accused Sahaba that the comettie that was supposed to compile Holy Quran mixed verses and changed the subjects of the book and this was done by those sahaba in accordance with pre planned scheme. And his list of accusations is very long.[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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whether this happened or not is another thing and can be discussed. But turning around and saying that this is impossible or something like this could never have happened would be wrong.
Why??? Because the Sahaba were human, just like me and you. Also authority and power makes you do a lot of things.
Like when Khilafath came in to place Hadiths and their collection was disregarded. The Ummah was kept away from such treasure.
Before Khilafath came in to place one made way for it by not being interested in what the Prophet (pbuh) had to write down for the Ummah. One didn't seem the need for it.
There are many matters that come in to the grey area. But one needs to understand that these were the Sahaba, just humans and were capable of what any other human is/was.
Did this or that happen??? Well one can discuss the nature and facts of it. But one can't remove the possibility of it, no matter how hard one tries!
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The entire Ummah removed the "possibility of it" except this sect who believes in Tahreef since the Qur'an doesn't mention the things they believe in.
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Why??? Because the Sahaba were human, just like me and you. Also authority and power makes you do a lot of things.
Look at this [EDIT], Ali used the mus-haf of Uthman, which was affirmed by Abdur-Razzak as-San'ani, the famous Tabi'i who had Shia leanings, do we go by the example of Ali or the example of the lying Rafidha? Ali is a hujjah against the Rafidha
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whether this happened or not is another thing and can be discussed. But turning around and saying that this is impossible or something like this could never have happened would be wrong.
Why??? Because the Sahaba were human, just like me and you. Also authority and power makes you do a lot of things.
At last this lying rafidi unintentionally revealed his true belief. Even after Allah SWT said that He WILL protect it, his hate filled heart believes its POSSIBLE that the companion changed it.
As usual, its shitism against Allah.
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Well Ameen, good luck living your life thinking that your holy-book is corrupted and altered.
I've never seen a devout Christian saying "Maybe the Bible was altered" nor have I seen a devout Jew say "Maybe the Torah was altered". But when it comes to Shia, it's a whole new different ball game.
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The entire Ummah removed the "possibility of it" except this sect who believes in Tahreef since the Qur'an doesn't mention the things they believe in.
Brother the Quran doesn't mention a lot of things that the Muslims believe in. I can point out many things which are not mentioned in the Quran. So your argument here is false.
Will continue this.
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My friend it's not about what it didn't mention. It's about you validating the possibility that our holy-book is corrupt.
I ask you this, had the scenario been different, had it actually been `Ali who collected this Mushaf and spread it in the lands, instead of Abu Bakr and `Uthman. Would you have still said "Maybe `Ali and his men changed it or messed it up?"
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My dear brothers, you're getting emotional and carried away over nothing. One shouldn't and must not get emotional or personal when in discussion. How the hell would you brothers do Dawa when you can't get a grip on yourselves.
Nobody said anything about the Quran being corrupt. It would be nice if you stopped twisting and turning things around and start giving them your own meaning.
Allah claimed he will protect the Quran but how and in what way is one thing that needs to be looked at. But there is something that comes well before this and that is,
If the Quran is immune, safe and free from any tampering or alteration then why the hell did Allah promise to protect it????????????????
There is no need for any sort of protection what so ever if something is free and safe from threat. This is evidence for something to be under threat rather than free and safe from threat.
Will continue this. Lets start to discuss rather than criticise and condemn before hand.
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First of all, Mr Hussain Bakhsh Jara is not talking about human errors in collection of Holy Quran rather he accused those Sahaba that they altered and changed the sequence as pre-planned scheme.
Secondly, Our Holy Book is protected by Allah himself as he declared in Quran thats y we all declare that it is protected with the exception of Ghullat of 12rs.U cant defend mr.Jara for his wrong beliefs. U 12rs when in muslim community always pretended that u accept The Book of Allah is immune and declare that person as Kafir who says that Quran is tempered etc under the cover of Taqqiya but in private gatherings u all accept that Quran is not immune . Hope this thread will show the true face of Rafida 12rs.
Thirdly, The whole Ummah agreed on this Quran. And they all have consensus on the Uprightness of Quran except the deviants.So u still claim that their is possibility to debate on .
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If the Quran is immune, safe and free from any tampering or alteration then why the hell did Allah promise to protect it?
It's the other way around, we all believe it is immune because Allah promised to protect it.
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Allah promised to protect the Quran. There are a number of questions that arise here;
1,What did he mean by this???
A, It doesn't matter what happens the Quran will remain in and has its original and true phase,face and form???
B,He will potect it through someone??? In other words someone will have the true and exact copy of the actual Quran in its original phase, face and form???
2, Protect the Quran from whom??? This is the crucial question. From whom??? From what threat???
If Allah has vowed to protect it then the threat and danger of alteration and tampering exists. There has to be someone who will cause harm or try to cause harm, be a danger and threat to the Quran. Otherwise what is the point of protection and defence. Why on earth would Allah claim to protect and defend it.
Other revelations have been threatened and didn't Allah protect them??? Yes he did. But how??? Through other Messengers/Prophets, through other revelations.
Now back to the Quran, how did Allah protect the Quran and from whom did he protect it???
3, What was the danger and threat??? There has to be something. Someone somehow must have treatened the Quran and then Allah protect it.
If you claim that the Quran is protected then that's fine. But you have to tell me how was the Quran threatened and who was a threat to it and how. Then Allah protected it in and by such a way and manner.
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If the Quran is immune, safe and free from any tampering or alteration then why the hell did Allah promise to protect it?
It's the other way around, we all believe it is immune because Allah promised to protect it.
Sorry brother do correct me here,
If something is immune then that means it free and safe from any danger and threat. Then it doesn't need any kind of protection and defence.
If something is not free and safe from danger and threat then that needs to be protected and defended.
????!
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My reply to your "list" above, is to repeat the obvious. (Your questions show you do believe in Tahreef)
Allah sent a text to guide humanity, He said that all other texts are corrupt except this text, He said that all those believing in the other texts are deviant and astray, He said that ONLY our text is true guidance and that He will not send us another text after it, it is the final text brought by the final messenger and we all became religiously accountable after receiving it.
What happens is one of three things,
1-Either HE protects it from being altered so humanity can always benefit from it since we are accountable religiously. (Belief of Ahlul-Sunnah)
Or
2-He leaves it without protection and thus sooner or later it will be lost and the earth will be devoid of guidance and we become all free from being accountable religiously. (Since God is just and fair)
Or
3-He takes it away from us and gives it to some hidden man who vanishes without a trace leaving the earth devoid of guidance but we are still religiously accountable. (A Rafidi belief of an unjust god)
The first is what any rational devout Muslim will believe, the second defeats the purpose of creation, and the third belief is evil, it is absolute nonsense that only an unjust and unfair god would do. Sadly, some Rafidah have this third one.
The next point is, what is "protection"? What do we mean when we say Allah protected the Qur'an?
The protection of the Qur'an means: The preservation of its texts exactly as intended when revealed, and its availability to the mainstream Muslims.
If any of these two parts is missing then the Qur'an was not protected nor would its existence serve a purpose. If the text is not preserved by Allah then it becomes corrupt and unusable, if it is hidden from the Muslims then it is lost and unusable.
The third and last point is "How" meaning: How does Allah protect the Qur'an?
The answer is that it is none of our business, He promised to protect it and that is sufficient for us to believe in its integrity and authenticity.
By observation we see that Allah made the believers successful in memorizing it, then collecting it, then preserving it, then spreading it in the lands and mass transmitting it to the next generations and this continued generation after generation and that is the Qur'an everyone relies upon today.
Thus Allah chose this system to preserve the text of His message. We do not know of any other system as Muslims.
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Brother hani , May I copy this reply of yours above?
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why not?
As long as you don't paste it in the same thread : p
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Ameen, why didn't Ali mention that the Qur'an was corrupted by the Sahaba, why did he use the mus-haf of Uthman?
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The third and last point is "How" meaning: How does Allah protect the Qur'an?
The answer is that it is none of our business, He promised to protect it and that is sufficient for us to believe in its integrity and authenticity.
I'm guessing the 12ers like him believe the protection is hand of the Mahdi.
Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Sa'eed narrated from Alibin al-Hasan at-Taymali from al-Hasan and Muhammad,the sons of Ali bin Yousuf, from Sa’dan bin Muslim fromSabah al-Muzni from al-Harith bin Haseera from Habbaal-Orani that Amirul Mo'mineen (s) had said:“As if I see our Shia in the mosque of Kufa setting uppavilions to teach the people the Qur'an as it has beenrevealed but when our Qa’im appears, he will destroy it(the mosque) and level its mihrab to the ground.”
Biharul Anwar , vol.52 p.364,
Mo’jam Ahadeeth al-Imam al-Mahdi vol.3 p.126.
Abu Sulayman Ahmad bin Hawtah narrated fromIbraheem bin Iss~haq an-Nahawandi from Abdullah binHammad al-Ansari from Sabah al-Muzni from al-Harithbin Haseera that al-Asbugh bin Nabata had said:“I heard Ali (s) saying: “As if I see the Persians settingup their pavilions in the mosque of Kufa and teaching people the Qur'an as it has been revealed!”
I said: “O Amirul Mo'mineen, is the Qur'an not as it has been revealed?”He said: “No, it is not. The names of seventy ones of Quraysh have been removed from it.
The name of AbuLahab has been left (in the Qur'an) just to remind the Prophet (s) of something because he is the Prophet’s uncle.”
Biharul Anwar , vol.52 p.364.
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Does it really matter what he thinks now?
I knew he was on taqiya all this time.
He slipped and now we know his real belief. So Ameen believes:
- Quran can be tampered even when Allah promise that no one will be able to do that
- Due to that tampering, there is doubt in it even after Allah says there is no doubt in it
- Quran maybe with hidden imam (meaning we dont have it as a guide) even when Allah says it is a guide for muttaqin
Anything Allah says which goes against Shitism, he will deny it. Thats the natural product of Shitism, zombies.
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This is from TAfsir al Qummi !!!!!!!!
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Ok brother Hani. The answer to your first question, do I believe that the Quran is altered/tampered with??? The Answer is No I do not. Is this satisfactory for you???
Is there a possibility that people tried to alter/tamper it??? Yes ofcourse there was a danger/threat and it did exist. Otherwise what was the point in defending and protecting it.
Enemies to the final revelation and the final Messenger (pbuh) did exist. First they were openly known as Mushriks and kafirs of Mecca and later on they became Muslims and Munafiqs of Mecca.
Not all people who became companions of the Prophet (pbuh) became companions for the right and same reason and their level of Eemaan wasn't the same.
Why did Allah not protect and defend the other revelations??? You claim other revelations were corrupt, why??? Were they not important??? Were they not worthy to be protected???
You have to believe in those revations as well as this one to be a Muslim, otherwise what is the point of Islam and being a Muslim???
I will continue this!
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Brothers what is the point of an hidden Imam??? You are absolutely right that was is the point of an hidden Imam???
Brothers try to learn and get to know what Shiaism and Shia belief is all about. Refrain from gossip and rumours and those who wish to raise suspicion and to cast doubt to cause mischief.
The 12th Imam (as) is not hidden. He is not in hiding. These words are used by anti Shia propagandists. The 12th Imam (as) went in to occultation by the will of Allah.
What does this mean??? He was taken away from the Ummah due to the Ummah's lack of interest and concern about these Imams.
How the previous 11 were treated right from the very start is in front of you. The first eventually came in to power but things were so Messed up and difficult because of the previous Khalifs that his first and main job was to clear and clean things up.
As soon as the first Imam came in to power as Khalifatul Muslimeen, people didn't even honour the title of Khalifatul Muslimeen. They openly accused him of all sorts and then eventually rebelled against him.
He governed for five years and struggled to save the Ummah and Islam from these outlaws and rebels, where as such important time could have been spent on promoting Islam and benefiting the Muslims.
Eventually the first was assassinated and the second Imam didn't even last a year. He only governed for 6 months. This is how bad things got for Imams and Imamath. And you know what happened to the third, Hazrath Hussain (as).
How the Imams were treated after this and what happened to their followers and supporters is clear in history. They were exiled, under house arrest, imprisoned and finally assassinated.
This was nothing to be proud about but was a period and phase of disgrace towards the Muslims. Now if the Ummah doesn't care and want divine guides and this is how careless people are then Allah took away the 12th.
Will continue this.
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Why didn't the Prophet (pbuh) assemble the Quran??? Why didn't he compile and set it up??? Neither did the first two khalifs do this. Why was it left to the third Khalif or why did he do it??? What method did he use??? How accurate was it??? Why isn't it compiled and set up according to the way it was revealed??? The team even admitted that the forgot that certain verse/s existed. Ref; Sehih Bukhari, volume 6, book 61, narration 509 onwards. You believe that previous revelations were corrupted, by whom??? Wasn't there any need to protect and defend them??? Were they not important??? No one has said that the Quran we have with us today is corrupted, these are your words. The Quran is not according to the way it was revealed, how and by what excuse would you hide this???
We do not believe in Khilaafath because people came in to authority through different means and reasons and used and abused power for their own political agenda and purpose.
We believe in Imamath and you believe in Khilafath. You want proof of Imamath from the Quran otherwise the alternative is to accept the ridiculous concept of Khilafath, where different people have managed to make their way in to power and got up to all sorts.
Since Imam Mahdi (as) has been taken away or since that time up till now, how have things gone for the Muslims??? Where is your Khilafath???
Things have gone from bad to worse and even more worse. And things will get even worser until Muslims cry out for help.
Since the Prophet (pbuh) died and the first person became Khalifa, disregarding Imamath, things started to become bad and got worse and worse because the Ummah thought they knew better. The companions were interested in the Quran by saying "Hasbona Kithaballah" but were not interested in what the Prophet (pbuh) had to write down. Because he exactly knew what would be written down. And this really tells a lot about that persons intentions.
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Kay so u have 3 posts, less take a look.
Post#20:
You said you don't believe that the Qur'an was altered or tempered. That is good and we believe you. In this case you disagree with that Shia Urdu Tafseer book whose author says the book was in fact altered and tampered with. You should have clarified your position more as you gave us the impression that the Tafseer was correct in its claim of Tahreef.
Then you ask: Is there a possibility that people tried to alter/tamper it???
We all agree with you that this is true, definitely all throughout the ages the enemies of Islam will try to attack the Qur'an in every single way. Although you put a lot of emphasis on the hypocrites from among the Muslims, especially the first generation (Companions), as if the Christians, Jews, Pagans and other groups didn't wish to attack the Qur'an. This looks like a narrow minded view.
Then you ask: Why did Allah not protect and defend the other revelations???
The answer is that because they weren't final, so whenever people would tamper with a book or corrupt its meaning, Allah would send them a Prophet to correct them and guide them. As for us, we have no Prophets after Muhammad (saw), so Allah could not allow for his final message to be lost.
Post#21:
Here there's a couple of things that need commentary.
The 12th Imam (as) is not hidden. He is not in hiding. These words are used by anti Shia propagandists. The 12th Imam (as) went in to occultation by the will of Allah.
First of all, this is the definition of hidden in the English language: "kept out of sight; concealed." It is also one of the synonyms of the occult or occultation. Which agrees perfectly with your beliefs, so it's not something the enemies made up.
Secondly, your biggest scholars such as Tusi and Murtada and the rest, all agreed that the 12th Imam hid himself out of fear from his enemies, NOT because people lost interest.
He was taken away from the Ummah due to the Ummah's lack of interest and concern about these Imams.
Now if the Ummah doesn't care and want divine guides and this is how careless people are then Allah took away the 12th.
That makes no sense,
First of all, because Shia narrations make it sound like their Imams were the center of the universe and everybody from Caliphs to governments to scholars and laypeople were all closely watching their every move and word (Which is why they did Taqiyyah according to Shia).
Secondly, if Allah saw that people had no interest in his so called divine Imams, making them go into hiding would make things worse because people would lose interest even more. Most Muslims today don't even believe al-`Askari had a son.
Thirdly, according to Shia, the Imam is present to guide the believers out of grace (lutf). If he takes him away then it means Allah has not bestowed upon us his grace making him an unjust god according to Shia. That's why your scholars blame his occultation on the enemies of the Imams who threaten to kill him.
The rest of this post has nothing of interest.
Post#22:
Why didn't the Prophet (pbuh) assemble the Quran??? Why didn't he compile and set it up??? Neither did the first two khalifs do this.
According to your Ayatulla Khu'i, the Prophet (saw) did collect it during his time. We say he didn't, and the main reason was that they were all unlettered, the concentration was on memorizing it and understanding it, otherwise if they just got a book and they relied on it then it was lost, there's no way they can get it back unless they have it memorized. The Qur'an kept being revealed and parts were constantly being abrogated until the death of the Prophet (saw), they couldn't have collected it in its complete form until after his passing. As for the first Khalifah Abu Bakr, he did collect the written Qur'an in its entirety after `Umar advised him to do so, he told him that if people who memorized the Qur'an were to die, then they might lose parts of Allah's book, so they decided to gather all the parchments and tablets while those who memorized it were still alive.
The team even admitted that the forgot that certain verse/s existed. Ref; Sehih Bukhari, volume 6, book 61, narration 509 onwards.
I'll search for this later.
No one has said that the Quran we have with us today is corrupted, these are your words. The Quran is not according to the way it was revealed, how and by what excuse would you hide this???
I assume you're talking about the order of verses, This Qur'an is in this specific order based on the instructions of the Prophet (saw) according to the authentic narration from ibn `Abbas and `Uthman.
It wasn't meant to be in the order of revelation.
We do not believe in Khilaafath because people came in to authority through different means and reasons and used and abused power for their own political agenda and purpose.
Any Nasibi can claim the same thing about `Ali. Also any atheist can claim the same about the Prophet (saw). Leave this dumb method of arguing.
We believe in Imamath and you believe in Khilafath. You want proof of Imamath from the Quran otherwise the alternative is to accept the ridiculous concept of Khilafath, where different people have managed to make their way in to power and got up to all sorts.
We believe in Imamah and Khilafah, the Khalifah of Rasul-Allah (saw) is the Imam of the believers.
The companions were interested in the Quran by saying "Hasbona Kithaballah" but were not interested in what the Prophet (pbuh) had to write down. Because he exactly knew what would be written down. And this really tells a lot about that persons intentions.
Gosh, pen and paper again? Hasn't this been refuted a million times? Okay, I'll tell you what he was going to write, he wanted to write "Abu Bakr is my successor."
Enjoy.
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That's the part of the narration that you find problematic:
Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:
"...and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost..."
This doesn't mean the Quran was lost or forgotten, in fact there were people who memorized it in its entirety. He was telling him to collect all the Suhuf so that if it so happens that those who memorized it die, parts of the Qur'an may not be lost.
There's no problem with what is after it as well, it's a narration about `Uthman using what was collected by Abu Bakr and `Umar to later compile the book as we know it today:
"...Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you..."
the rest of what you pointed to is in this link:
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/061-sbt.php
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Post#20:
You said you don't believe that the Qur'an was altered or tempered. That is good and we believe you. In this case you disagree with that Shia Urdu Tafseer book whose author says the book was in fact altered and tampered with. You should have clarified your position more as you gave us the impression that the Tafseer was correct in its claim of Tahreef.
I think you missed out on his taqiyyah. He is saying the real Quran which isn't tampered is with the Mahdi. So when he is saying I don't believe the Quran is tampered, he is referring to another version which is with the Mahdi. Ask him if Quran which is in public hands is tampered or not.
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Brothers what is the point of an hidden Imam??? You are absolutely right that was is the point of an hidden Imam???
Brothers try to learn and get to know what Shiaism and Shia belief is all about. Refrain from gossip and rumours and those who wish to raise suspicion and to cast doubt to cause mischief.
The 12th Imam (as) is not hidden. He is not in hiding. These words are used by anti Shia propagandists. The 12th Imam (as) went in to occultation by the will of Allah.
This is not from propaganda, gossip or rumors. The term hidden is used on mainstream 12er Shia websites as well.
The Twelfth Imam, Muhammad ibn al-Hasan (Al-Mahdi-Sahibuz Zaman) (as) (The hidden Imam who is expected to return)
http://www.al-islam.org/story-of-the-holy-kaaba-and-its-people-shabbar/twelfth-imam-muhammad-ibn-al-hasan-al-mahdi
What does this mean??? He was taken away from the Ummah due to the Ummah's lack of interest and concern about these Imams.
Yes, but which part of tImam Mahdi (A.S.) said.
"If our shias; may Allah help them in His obedience; would have fulfilled their covenant with united hearts then there would have. been no delay in our meeting, and they would have been blessed with our visitation at the earliest, along with the recognition of truth and confirmation of our rights."
(Al Ihtejaj vol.2 Pg.602
Which Ummah? These were the Rafidah/Shia.
How the Imams were treated after this and what happened to their followers and supporters is clear in history. They were exiled, under house arrest, imprisoned and finally assassinated.
The Sahaba generation did not exist. So my question is where were the Shias ?
This was nothing to be proud about but was a period and phase of disgrace towards the Muslims.
I totally agree. Look what happened during Imam Musa Al Kazim's (as) time.
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@Hani
Gosh, pen and paper again? Hasn't this been refuted a million times? Okay, I'll tell you what he was going to write, he wanted to write "Abu Bakr is my successor."
Can you prove this or was it sarcasm? If sarcasm, brother watch out saying something like this.
I read this once: http://ahlussunnah.boards.net/thread/100/hadith-pen-paper-shiah?page=1&scrollTo=155
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It's neither sarcasm nor fact nor nothing, it's a methodology of debate adopted by many.
Regarding writing Abu Bakr's name, this has been theorized and it does have its evidence, nothing explicit though.
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Ok brothers, thank you very much for your response. Let me go through and cover as much as I can. The 12th Imam (as) went in to occultation or was taken in to occultation by the will of Allah. And this was due to lack of interest and concern from the Muslim Ummah about and for divine guidance. People thought they knew better and there was no need for any type of guidance.
As I have given you an example right from the very start. The Prophet (pbuh), not some ordinary person but the Messenger (pbuh) himself is saying,
"fetch or get me a pen and paper so I can write something for you that you will not go astray, you will not differ with each other after me",
what ever the actual words are, it is not about what was going to be written, was it this or was it that. This is the technique and tactic used by people that, how do you know what was going to be written???
It could have been any thing for example,
"Abu Bakar is the true Khalif after me, he is my successor and do not differ on that",
the question is not about what was going to be written, the question is about this particular persons attitude and behaviour towards this, his reaction towards this that,
"Hasbona Kithaballah" meaning "the book of Allah is enough for us".
For any person who has got nothing to do with Shiaism or Sunnism, who is interested in the truth and doesn't bother about protecting any companion and making them look good, or trying to move the discussion forward to cover things up, for this person this particular individuals intentions and thoughts are absolute clear. This is an insult to the Prophet (pbuh) and there is no way on earth one can turn and run from this apart from diverting attention to what exactly was the Prophet (pbuh) going to write.
Come on for Gods sake, this is the Prophet (pbuh) we are talking about and the reaction is,
"Hasbona Kithaballah", The book of Allah is enough for us. In other words, we are not interested in what you are going to write, there is no need for anything else. The reaction of this particular individual and the fuss that was created from here tells you a lot about this persons attentions and thoughts.
No one is talking about this persons status and honour as a companion but what is at question here is about his reaction, his response, which is absolutely alarming. Again it is not about what was or wasn't going to be written.
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Ameen, read this:
http://ahlussunnah.boards.net/thread/100/hadith-pen-paper-shiah?page=1&scrollTo=155
It says what was going to be written on the paper basically.
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Ugh, pen and paper is off topic and it's freaking BORING! Discussed a gazillion times in every single way.
I'm going to post an ancient piece and let that answer you:
http://www.chiite.fr/en/sahaba_25.html
or
https://www.sjiieten-ontmaskerd.nl/AhlelBayt.com/www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/sahabah/pen-and-paper.html
Also if you're wondering, it was the Prophet (saw) himself who taught the companions this philosophy that Allah's book is sufficient. Of course you won't know this since you don't read Hadith books.
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^Thanks for the articles brother Hani, this was the only issue still bugging me. ;D
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It's neither sarcasm nor fact nor nothing, it's a methodology of debate adopted by many.
Regarding writing Abu Bakr's name, this has been theorized and it does have its evidence, nothing explicit though.
They can't even use that hadith as an example. Ibn Abbas when he served under Imam Ali (as) later differed and withdrew from his government. So how it fit with divine appointment.
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Ameen, read this:
http://ahlussunnah.boards.net/thread/100/hadith-pen-paper-shiah?page=1&scrollTo=155
It says what was going to be written on the paper basically.
I am looking in to this and will reply asap!
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Ameen, if you do so, then open a new topic please.
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Ameen, if you do so, then open a new topic please.
Yes ofcourse. No problem.