TwelverShia.net Forum

Shin In the Quran

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Rationalist

Shin In the Quran
« on: November 25, 2017, 08:24:28 PM »
Salaam
This topic is opened for whoaretheshia.

In the Mutazilla topic the brothers has advised me to pick only one aqeeda, and not choose the different views between the aqeeda. He also said that the 12er Shia are united in the aqeeda. I've look into some translations of the 12er Shia kalam, and I don't agree that this is the case with the 12er Shia.


Below is reference on what the brother said.

Quote
Without seeming to come across as rude here brother, i think it is essential you adopt a doctrine of Aqeedah. It is the most fundamental aspect of your religion. As for seeing the pros and cons of every school of Aqeedah, one can not simply agree with them all in some matters and disagree in some matters. The schools are so distinct one would have to choose one because there are no middle ways between them

This is one of the differences i have seen between the Sunni and the Shia. Many intelligent and articulate individuals such as yourself who clearly know a lot about the religion mix and match Aqeedah and do not have any defined school of Aqeedah. Whereas if you ask a Shia, there is no difference between us on fundamental aspects of Aqeedah regarding the divine attributes, for example.

This does disappoint me, because i feel the Salafi's, as well as the Askari's and Maturidi's should be doing more because the next generation generally does not seem to place any real emphasis in identifying with a school of Aqeedah.

User whoaretheShia. First you advise me to stick to one aqeeda, and then in the end you contradict yourself by saying the Salafis, Asharis and Maturidi should do more.

Anyway, since you said the 12er Shia are united on aqeeda, can you tell me how your Imams have explained this verse?

The Day the shin will be uncovered and they are invited to prostration but the disbelievers will not be able (Quran 68:42)



I referred to some of the 12er tafseer online, and the explanations are unsatisfactory. Agha Pooya did a good job, but he too had to rely on the Sunni tasfeer of Abdullah bin Abbas.

Again in the 12er Shia beliefs one must rely on the 12 imams. So please help me find a hadith which gives me the correct understanding of this verse. I am satisfied with Abdullah bin Abbas' explanation, but since you are telling me how the 12er Shia are the only right ones, and everyone else is misguided so please provide a 12er Shia hadith to explain this verse of shin which is not an attribute of Allah, but a possession.

Rationalist

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2017, 01:55:38 AM »
bumped for whoaretheshia!

Hadrami

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2017, 06:20:49 AM »
bunped again 😁

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 06:31:04 AM »
Salaam
This topic is opened for whoaretheshia.

In the Mutazilla topic the brothers has advised me to pick only one aqeeda, and not choose the different views between the aqeeda. He also said that the 12er Shia are united in the aqeeda. I've look into some translations of the 12er Shia kalam, and I don't agree that this is the case with the 12er Shia.


Below is reference on what the brother said.

User whoaretheShia. First you advise me to stick to one aqeeda, and then in the end you contradict yourself by saying the Salafis, Asharis and Maturidi should do more.

Anyway, since you said the 12er Shia are united on aqeeda, can you tell me how your Imams have explained this verse?

The Day the shin will be uncovered and they are invited to prostration but the disbelievers will not be able (Quran 68:42)



I referred to some of the 12er tafseer online, and the explanations are unsatisfactory. Agha Pooya did a good job, but he too had to rely on the Sunni tasfeer of Abdullah bin Abbas.

Again in the 12er Shia beliefs one must rely on the 12 imams. So please help me find a hadith which gives me the correct understanding of this verse. I am satisfied with Abdullah bin Abbas' explanation, but since you are telling me how the 12er Shia are the only right ones, and everyone else is misguided so please provide a 12er Shia hadith to explain this verse of shin which is not an attribute of Allah, but a possession.


The reality is, by Muttawatir transmission Allah does not have corporeality, is not composed of constituent parts, and this is so unequivocal and clear so that the Shia do not believe Allah literally has a shin, but not like ours, and will uncover his literal shin. In fact, even the Ashariyya and Maturidiyya schools affirm he does not have a shin, and that the meaning of this verse is unknown, and that unlike the Salafi-Atharis they do not take the apparent meaning but resign the howness to Allah, but wholeheartedly reject the notion he has a Shin, but affirm whatever it is to Allah (Tafweed).

Either way, we have traditions on this very issue;

م انثدهح :لاهق ،)لا ههحر(  اقدهلا نارهمع نهب دهمم نب دحأ نب يلع انثدح :لاق ،هيوباب نبا :لاهق ،فوهكلا لا دهبع بأ نهبا دهم ههههيلع( نهههسلا بأ نههع ،ديعهههس نههب يهههسلا نههع ،رهههكب نههع ،نهههسلا نههب يهههسلا انثدههح :لاهههق يههكمبلا لهههيعاسإ نههب دهههمم انثدههح :لاههق ،ِدوُجههّسلا َلِإ َنْوَعْدههُي َو ٍ اههس ْنههَع ُفههَشْكُي َمْوههَهي :لههج و زههع هههلوق ف ،)ملههسلا«ههنمؤلا عههقيف فههشكي روههن نههم ناههجح نودوجسلا نوعياتسي لف يقفانلا نلصأ جمدت و ،ادجس.» Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Umran Al-Daqaq narrated to us, from Muhammad Ibn Abu Abdullah Al-Kufy, from Muhammad Bin Ismail Al-Barmakky, from Al-Husayn Bin Al-Hassan, from Bakr, from Al-Husayn Bin Saeed, who has narrated:  ‘Abu Al-Hassanasws regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: On the Day the Shin shall be laid bare and they would be called to do the Sajdah [68:42], heasws said: ‘A Veil of Light would be Uncovered, so the Momineen would fall down in Sajdah, and the backbones of the hypocrites would stiffen so they would not be able to do Sajdah’.

Kitab al-Tawhid, by Shaykh as Saduq.


 ،بللا يلع نب دمم نع ،ةلي  بأ نع ،لاضف نبا نع ،مشاه نب ميهاربإ نع ،لا دبع نب دعس انثدح :لاق ،هيبأ نع :هنع و( لا دبع بأ نع:لاهق ،ٍ اهس ْنهَع ُفهَشْكُي َمْوهَهي :لهج و زهع ههلوق ف ،)ملهسلا ههيلع «راهباا كراهبت-  فهشكف ،هقاهس لإ راهشأ نرا لا اهنع-  َنوُعيِاَتْسَي لَف ِدوُجّسلا َلِإ َنْوَعْدُي َو :لاق And from him, from his father, from Sa’ad Bin Abdullah, from Ibrahim Bin Hashim, from Ibn Fazal, from Abu Jameela, from Muhammad Bin Ali Al-Halby, who has narrated:  ‘Abu Abdullahasws regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: On the Day He would Uncover from a side [68:42]. Heasws said: ‘Blessed is the Mighty’ – Then gestured to hisasws own side, so heasws uncovered from it the outfit – said: ‘and they would be called to do the Sajdah, but they will not be able to [68:42]’. ههّلِذ ْمُهُقَهْرههَهت ْمُهُراههصْبَأ ًةَعههِشاخ رجاههنلا نوههلقلا تههغلب و ،راههصبلا  تعههشخ و ،ةههبينا مهتههلخد و موههقلا مهه فأ :لاههق اوُناهه  ْدههَق َو ٌة َنوُمِلاس ْمُه َو ِدوُجّسلا َلِإ َنْوَعْدُي.» Heasws said: ‘The people would understand, and the awe would enter into them, and the visions would be humbled, and their hearts would reach to the throats’ Their visions humbled, humiliation having tired them, and they had been called to the Sajdah while they were safe (and sound) [68:43].  :هلوق :هيوباب نبا لاق«را لا اههنع فهشكف هقاهس لإ راشأ و ،راباا كرابت » ياهلا  اهسلاب فهصوي نأ نهم راهباا كراهبت ههب نهعي.هتفص ااه [Kitab al Tawhid]

Shaykh Saduq writes: The words of the Imam: ‘Blessed is the Compeller’ – Then gestured to his own side, and he uncovered from the outfit it, (and said): ‘It means by it, ‘Blessed is the Compeller from being described with the side, the description of which is this’.

Essentially, by saying 'Blessed be Allah' and then pointing to his Shin, he is saying that high above being likened to creation or described by that which the creation has, to actually be considered to have a Shin.

So there we have it, two traditions.
 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 06:38:25 AM by whoaretheshia »
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2017, 06:40:58 AM »
Shaykh Mufid gives an excellent explanation of this verse:


From:https://www.al-islam.org/emendation-shiite-creed-shaykh-al-mufid/1-metaphorical-interpretation-baring-shank-kashfu-s-saq

On a day when a shank (saq) shall be bared, and they shall be summoned to prostrate themselves, but they cannot [68:42].

as-Saq (shank) here means the result, or consummation of the affair and its intensity.

Ash-Shaykh al-Mufid says: The meaning of the verse quoted above is intended for the Day of Resurrection on which an important, hard and intense matter will be disclosed, and that will be the reckoning and scrutinizing of (man's) actions; the recompensing for (good or bad) deeds, and the divulging of the heart secrets; the revealing of mysteries, and the appraisal of good and bad acts. Hence, He (Allah) designates by as saq the gravity of the matter; and by the same reasoning, the Arabs used to symbolize the violence and severity of war with their peculiar expression, "The war broke out [amongst us] (qamati 'l-harbu [bina] ‘ala saq)"3 .

And their poet, Sa‘d ibn Khalid, says:

The war disclosed all its severety, and revealed its full calamity.
The eagle of death appeared,
Bearing in its train the decreed fate.

Also, like this is their expression, "The fair is set up", (qad qamati 's-suq), denoting when the people crowd together, and buying and selling goes briskly with much effort and exertion.


In fact, you even have translators implementing this meaning:



Muhammad Shakir: " On the day when there shall be a severe affliction, and they shall be called upon to make obeisance, but they shall not be able..."

Pickthall: "On the day when it befalleth in earnest, and they are ordered to prostrate themselves but are not able..."

Muhammad Sarwar: "On the day when the terrible torment approaches, they will be told (in a mocking way) to prostrate themselves, but they will not be able to do it."

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=68&verse=42
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2017, 06:45:03 AM »
Even the Ashariyya and Maturiyya do not believe Allah , the Almighty has a shin, and we affirm the literal meaning but do not say how. Rather they do not believe he has a Shin, but whatever is meant by 'Shin' is not a Shin and the meaning is not understood outwardly or otherwise and that the whole verse pertaining to the revealing of the Shin is referred to Allah. Many others affirm this , but also affirm the Shia position on this.

I don't agree with this video, but you find Christians are rightfully questioning some of these beliefs.

DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2017, 06:46:12 AM »
Here is a Sunni Ashari/Maturidi scholar claiming ibn Abbas himself gave T'awil on this verse:

DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 06:49:40 AM »
Ibn Abbas and the Companions of the Prophet, sallahu alayhi wa salam:

Concerning the verse, “The day that a Shin will be laid bare,” (Quran 68:42) Ibn Abbas interpreted the “shin” to mean “severity.”

Commenting on this verse, Imam al Tabari said, “A group of the Prophet’s companions and their disciples, and the people of figurative interpretation have said, ‘He will uncover a severe matter.’ And among those who interpreted the shin to mean ‘severity’ from the Imams of Quranic exegesis are Mujahid, Said Bin Jubayr, Qataba and others. Allah be He exalted said, ‘And the sky we built with hands. And it is We who give expanse.’ (Quran 51:47). Ibn Abbas said concerning it: “With strength.” (Tafsir al Tabari) That is, “We built it with strength.”

https://baraka.wordpress.com/2016/01/29/the-unclear-verses-and-hadiths-pertaining-to-allahs-attributes/
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 06:53:40 AM »
Shia view from Kitab al-Tawhid [chain given earlier]:

"‘The people would understand, and the awe would enter into them, and the visions would be humbled, and their hearts would reach to the throats’ Their visions humbled, humiliation having tired them, and they had been called to the Sajdah while they were safe (and sound) [68:43].  :هلوق :هيوباب نبا لاق«را لا اههنع فهشكف هقاهس لإ راشأ و ،راباا كرابت » ياهلا  اهسلاب فهصوي نأ نهم راهباا كراهبت ههب نهعي.هتفص ااه [Kitab al Tawhid]

^ This is one of the interpretations given. This is essentially the meaning of 'Sak' i.e the reality of the matter.

By the way, have you read any of our Arabic Tafseers? Shaykh Puya has often left a loft of traditions which are from our books and give T'awil. His actual work is quite brief.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 06:55:36 AM by whoaretheshia »
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hadrami

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 06:56:09 AM »
yeah no need to explain the ashari maturidi. No matter how different, they wont say athari is kafir as how shia see sunni. Anyway, good at last you answer. Now, the explanation on how Allah put his HAND on husayn head when He ENTERED the house. Im curiou about how shia interpret that too.

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2017, 06:58:34 AM »
.

The tradition is weak and no evidence to me.

Furthermore, as has been stated , the Ijmah of the Shia , as well as the Muttawatir and authentic reports deny Allah can have such literal attributes. Those who affirm the weak hadith claim it is purely metaphorical. They also affirm it is grotesque deviance to claim Allah literally enters a house.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 07:00:05 AM by whoaretheshia »
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2017, 07:00:49 AM »


SubhanAllah, this individual is preaching that Allah literally has a shin, but not like ours.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hadrami

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2017, 07:14:14 AM »
The tradition is weak and no evidence to me.

Furthermore, as has been stated , the Ijmah of the Shia , as well as the Muttawatir and authentic reports deny Allah can have such literal attributes. Those who affirm the weak hadith claim it is purely metaphorical. They also affirm it is grotesque deviance to claim Allah literally enters a house.


not to you, only to some of your scholars which i am sure knows more about shia than you. Maybe should condemn them too 😆

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2017, 07:17:04 AM »
not to you, only to some of your scholars which i am sure knows more about shia than you. Maybe should condemn them too 😆

It is weak as per orthodox Shia Rijal standards, and weak according to the majority of our scholars. People wearing turbans and narrating these tales exist even among Sunnis. Might i add, even if i accepted it as authentic (and its is not authentic at all) the few who relay it despite it being weak do so and make it clear that it is pure allegory and metaphorical talk.
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

whoaretheshia

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2017, 07:18:57 AM »
Brother rationalist, buy this book if you want (or read the free version online in Arabic):

https://www.amazon.co.uk/KITAB-AL-TAWHID-Book-Divine-Unity/dp/1902911091

I've got it in Arabic, but also a copy in English i was planning to transfer onto online, maybe in the future sometime. It is a great book.

I'm not allowed to reference my website, but i am sure you are aware of what it is, and we have a Tawheed section with 'Kitab al-Tawhid' on it. Sadly i can't tell you what the website is called or even link it, but i am pretty sure you knew before the link-ban came into place. Read those traditions on Tawheed also. We have uploaded every reliable tradition from al-Kafi Kitab al-Tawhid on there.

However the work by Shaykh Saduq is an absolute masterpiece.  Read that and compare it to what Muhammed ibn Abdul Wahhab has written.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 07:24:36 AM by whoaretheshia »
DISCLAIMER: I AM AWAY UNTIL THE START OF THE NEW YEAR, PM ME IF I OWE YOU A REPLY, MAY ALLAH HAVE MERCY ON ALL OF US, FI AMANILLAH
" O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice.. even if it be against yourselves... So follow not [personal] inclination, lest you not be jus

Hadrami

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2017, 12:38:00 PM »
Might i add, even if i accepted it as authentic (and its is not authentic at all) the few who relay it despite it being weak do so and make it clear that it is pure allegory and metaphorical talk.

its just typical shia exaggeration when it comes to husayn. Like tales he singlehandedly fight thousand people and many other popular husayniyat tales shia like you love to accept 😁

Rationalist

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2017, 12:11:11 AM »



Either way, we have traditions on this very issue;

‘Abu Al-Hassanasws regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: On the Day the Shin shall be laid bare and they would be called to do the Sajdah [68:42], heasws said: ‘A Veil of Light would be Uncovered, so the Momineen would fall down in Sajdah, and the backbones of the hypocrites would stiffen so they would not be able to do Sajdah’.

Kitab al-Tawhid, by Shaykh as Saduq.

In this tradition, the shin is a ray of light?


Quote
،بللا يلع نب دمم نع ،ةلي  بأ نع ،لاضف نبا نع ،مشاه نب ميهاربإ نع ،لا دبع نب دعس انثدح :لاق ،هيبأ نع :هنع و( لا دبع بأ نع:لاهق ،ٍ اهس ْنهَع ُفهَشْكُي َمْوهَهي :لهج و زهع ههلوق ف ،)ملهسلا ههيلع «راهباا كراهبت-  فهشكف ،هقاهس لإ راهشأ نرا لا اهنع-  َنوُعيِاَتْسَي لَف ِدوُجّسلا َلِإ َنْوَعْدُي َو :لاق And from him, from his father, from Sa’ad Bin Abdullah, from Ibrahim Bin Hashim, from Ibn Fazal, from Abu Jameela, from Muhammad Bin Ali Al-Halby, who has narrated:  ‘Abu Abdullahasws regarding the Words of the Mighty and Majestic: On the Day He would Uncover from a side [68:42]. Heasws said: ‘Blessed is the Mighty’ – Then gestured to hisasws own side, so heasws uncovered from it the outfit – said: ‘and they would be called to do the Sajdah, but they will not be able to [68:42]’. ههّلِذ ْمُهُقَهْرههَهت ْمُهُراههصْبَأ ًةَعههِشاخ رجاههنلا نوههلقلا تههغلب و ،راههصبلا  تعههشخ و ،ةههبينا مهتههلخد و موههقلا مهه فأ :لاههق اوُناهه  ْدههَق َو ٌة َنوُمِلاس ْمُه َو ِدوُجّسلا َلِإ َنْوَعْدُي.» Heasws said: ‘The people would understand, and the awe would enter into them, and the visions would be humbled, and their hearts would reach to the throats’ Their visions humbled, humiliation having tired them, and they had been called to the Sajdah while they were safe (and sound) [68:43].  :هلوق :هيوباب نبا لاق«را لا اههنع فهشكف هقاهس لإ راشأ و ،راباا كرابت » ياهلا  اهسلاب فهصوي نأ نهم راهباا كراهبت ههب نهعي.هتفص ااه [Kitab al Tawhid]

Shaykh Saduq writes: The words of the Imam: ‘Blessed is the Compeller’ – Then gestured to his own side, and he uncovered from the outfit it, (and said): ‘It means by it, ‘Blessed is the Compeller from being described with the side, the description of which is this’.

Essentially, by saying 'Blessed be Allah' and then pointing to his Shin, he is saying that high above being likened to creation or described by that which the creation has, to actually be considered to have a Shin.

So there we have it, two traditions.
 

Why did 6th Imam uncover his own shin?

Rationalist

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2017, 12:12:12 AM »
Shaykh Mufid gives an excellent explanation of this verse:


Why doesn' t Shaykh Mufid use hadith like his teacher Shaykh Saduq.

Rationalist

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2017, 12:16:56 AM »
Brother rationalist, buy this book if you want (or read the free version online in Arabic):

Yes, I have read this book. In this book there are traditions which exposed the two Hishams from having deviated views on tawheed. This book proves that Hisham bin Hakam did say Allah has a body, his meaning is for the existence of Allah. However, even with this meaning in the same book Imam Musa al Kazim (as) curses him.

Rationalist

Re: Shin In the Quran
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2017, 12:20:23 AM »
Ibn Abbas and the Companions of the Prophet, sallahu alayhi wa salam:


Read my first post again. I have spoken about Abdullah bin Abbas. However, I want to know why in the 12er Shia hadith, the Imam uncovered their own shin? Also, why did Shaykh Mufid not use traditions which his teacher Shaykh Saduq used?

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
7 Replies
2781 Views
Last post August 17, 2015, 01:20:54 PM
by Al Dukhan
5 Replies
1173 Views
Last post September 23, 2015, 11:33:15 PM
by sahabasword
4 Replies
506 Views
Last post January 24, 2016, 11:20:17 PM
by Rationalist
1 Replies
306 Views
Last post January 03, 2017, 10:06:25 PM
by Link