Changing of Qur'an in sunni hadith (Stop claiming shias believe in Tahreef)

[Muhammad Tazin]

Qummi in his Tafsir al Qummi - even Emphasized on Tahrif!!  Starting from Muqaddima!!!

[Ameen]

Stop claiming Shias believe in tahreef. Thanks.

Nobody has said that 100% of the 12er Shia population believes it. However, your sect does not call 12ers who believe in it as non-Muslims.
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Brother this is where the problem is. When Tehreef e Quran is mentioned by certain brothers they say that the Shias believe in it. Certain people have stepped forward, even on this forum, and said that one of the reasons why they left Shiaism is because Shias believe in Tehreef e Quran.

Tehreef e Quran is being used against Shias and it is clearly mentioned that all Shias believe in it. Or it is represented as a core belief of the Shias and a very important part of Shiaism.

You or certain people who use Tehreef e Quran as a tool against Shiaism and the Shias need to get their act right. This is not part of Shiaism and the vast majority do not believe in it.

Now you mentioned another thing that we do not call those who believe in Tehreef e Quran Kafir. Brother first of all issuing fatwas of Takfeer is not our responsibility and job. This is what the Khawarij do and use as an excuse to kill people.

It is strange that people what to accuse others of Takfeer and Kufr but when it comes to Yazeed and what he did, they refuse to do that.

 

[Ameen]

Qummi in his Tafsir al Qummi - even Emphasized on Tahrif!!  Starting from Muqaddima!!!

So what did he exactly say??? Did he say that he believed in Tehreef e Quran or did he mention something as an argument, something that can be or needs to be discussed because of certain narrations???

[Hani]

Introduction of Tafseer al-Qummi as I recall shows he clearly believes in Tahreef. This is illustrated by his narrations in that same book ad in other books.

[Ameen]

Introduction of Tafseer al-Qummi as I recall shows he clearly believes in Tahreef. This is illustrated by his narrations in that same book ad in other books.

So how would you or what would you define as Tehreef e Quran???

[Furkan]

You are the shia, you know better.

[Ameen]

You are the shia, you know better.

Then put a stop to the propaganda and discuss on principals, with a positive attitude and in a pleasant manner. But you can't do this and you will continue with your current stance, since it's your only means of survival.

[Hani]

Because on page 5 of volume one where he is explaining the various contents of the Qur'an, he says some parts of it are abrogated and others are abrogating, some parts are explicit and others are vague, some parts of it are general and others are specific... then he says:

ومنه على خلاف ما انزل الله

"And some parts of it oppose what Allah has revealed."

Then he even gives further examples as to what he means on page 10, he says:

واما ما هو كان على خلاف ما انزل الله فهو قوله " كنتم خير امة اخرجت للناس تأمرون بالمعروف وتنهون عن المنكر وتؤمنون بالله " فقال ابوعبدالله عليه السلام لقاري هذه الآية " خير امة " يقتلون امير المؤمنين والحسن والحسين بن علي عليه السلام؟ فقيل له وكيف نزلت يابن رسول الله؟ فقال انما نزلت " كنتم خير ائمة اخرجت للناس

[As for what opposes what Allah revealed, then it is like his saying {You were the best nation brought forth for mankind, you enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil and believe in Allah} Abu `Abdillah (as) said to the one who recited this verse: "Best nation!?" They killed `Ali and Hasan and Husayn (as)!? They said: "Then how was it revealed O son of Rasul-Allah (saw)?" He said: It was revealed as {You were the best Imams brought forth for mankind}]

And he gives other examples of verses he believes were corrupted by the companions to hide the virtues of the Imams.

Is this not clear?

[Furkan]

just why can't these shiites accept it that there is an opinion of believing in tahreef within shiism?

I actually wonder how shiites left this opinion of tahreef on a huge scale like this? Did it happen 100 years ago or even earlier?

[Ameen]

Brothers firstly Tehreef e Quran has been discussed by both, Shia as well as leading Sunni scholars, in Shia as well as Sunni books.

The author/writer of the book, did they mention and discuss this argument??? Did they represent it as their formal opinion and view??? This depends on the author/writer.

Secondly I always believe in moving the discussion forward so for argumental reasons I will agree with you brother Hani. It is clear but what  has this got to do with the rest of us???

Why is the entire community being labelled and targeted by you over this??? What does the vast majority of the Shia Scholars and the common and average person believe in???

Brother Furkan rather than getting us to admitt why don't you admitt the obvious that certain people use bits and pieces like this to target the entire Shia communtiy.

Tell me, what is propaganda??? This is part of propaganda just like certain non Muslims use bits and pieces to try and paint a bad picture of Islam.

[Hani]

I don't hold the opinion that all Imamis believe in Tahreef. Your issue is with those who think the entire sect believes in Tahreef.

[Ameen]

I don't hold the opinion that all Imamis believe in Tahreef. Your issue is with those who think the entire sect believes in Tahreef.

My issue isn't with anyone. I don't get personal. What I'm pointing out is the matter of Tehreef e Quran is being put forward by certain members on this forum as it is a core belief of the Shia. This is how this topic is being presented and you along with others are being challenged to make this statement, which you have made now. You could have said this earlier. Or point this out at the begining without being challenged over it.

[Ameen]

This channel cuts and pastes clips and take them out of context all the time, so I can't trust the video just on that basis.
Also let's just assume that is exactly what this speaker was claiming, just because one shia (who I have never even heard of) says something, doesn't mean it represents all shia.

See, i told you this labelingtheory is just another ameen (ignorant/clueless or taqiyah freak). Even after his own ayatulah said one of the BIGGEST shia scholar in history believed in tahrif, hes still try to deny it & say its video editing work. It's information age, its not 256H when someone can say someone was born when he doesnt exist mate

Ok, so what's his opinion got to do with the rest of us??? When ever an Ahle Sunnah Scholar is mentioned past or present along with his statement which goes against your ideology or myth, you turn around and say that you don't believe in him and certainly don't follow him. Look, two can play at this game and you very well know that.

[sawaaiq]

Look, two can play at this game and you very well know that.

So do you and Labellingtheory believe Abu Bakr and Umar are kuffar?

[Hani]

Let's stick to topic everyone.

[Furkan]

Where is labelingtheory actually?

[MuslimK]

I think he is the guy on facebook who is quoting narrations about abrogation from Sunni books and calling it Tahrif due to his lack of knowledge.

[Furkan]

Let's hope another Shia will continue from here on...

[Shia not Rafidi]

i enjoy getting the shia lame excuse being crushed and how at the end they start acting like "hey i don't care what our scholars believed in, i am free of that nonsense"..
also wondering why The Philosophical guy "Iceman" is nowhere to be seen..