The disease of the hearts.

[Link]

Most humans in the long history of humanity, always, despite how clear the religion was explained, never been able to comprehend the religion.

For some reason, despite, God presenting clear proofs, miracles, and divine guidance in clear words, humanity has always belittled his revelations.

Now people want us to believe the majority of those claiming to believe in God and Mohammad, are all of sudden, going to be a people who understand the religion and guidance as presented by God and his Messenger.

The words "therefore if you dispute in a thing, refer it to God and the Messenger, if you believe in God and the last day...", shows that if we were truly believers, we would of made revelation and the Sunnah of the Nabi a means of unity, and that no one would refer to a non-chosen leader and say "my leader teaches this and that so I suppor this and that..".

Bani-Israel was not meant to follow those who said "look at us and listen to us", but rather, it was upon them to recognize the chosen ones, and not claim their authority for themselves or for who they or their community regards as chiefs or leaders.

The disease where the follower loves those he follows like the love he is suppose to have for God is a disease that is never forgiven and it manifests when these leaders command to what contradicts God's book and yet is obeyed.

If the Muslims truly believed in God and the last day, they would of have settled the issue of disputes by the Quran and Sunnah.

But Quran and Sunnah becames a means of division, rather than seeking to understand and unite on understanding through consultation, people either look to lead others or be lead by others, or mix of that, and every party becoming proud in what they have gathered.

There is no doubt in my view that God's religion is better designed, and his wisdom and commands, if obeyed, would of resulted in a better program and algorithym.

Among these is God's teachings that all Prophets taught those who heard their message to be Rabaniyoon by what they teach of the book and by what they study.

There still remains a way opened for us, any easy means to go back to God's revelation and the Sunnah of the Nabi. But our state has to change, and we know God says in Quran he doesn't change a state of people until they change what is in themselves.

God may replace this umma or he may save it. It all depends on how we act and what we do.

There is no doubt in my those who the hold the authority from this nation are those who God has given a clear proof and manifested their leadership for guidance of humanity.

The veil is thick because we never fight the dark magic and allow it to take root of our heart.  The Quran is exalted beyond our appreciation, we can appreciate and recognize it's a miracle, but it's still beyond our appreciation.

It's high time to stop belittling it's verse, to stop taking leaders and authorities those who have made religion into a play thing and mockery, and it's high time we aren't decieved by the deceivers anymore.

The Quran and Ahlulbayt are together, they go together, and they cannot be separated.  When one neglects one, the other is neglected, and they can only be followed together.

This is not the first time a occulation has happened and the clear proof and signs become hidden, and it's not unexplained in Quran, nor does the Quran miss anything as far as manifesting the path and providing clear proof of the religion and way.

Take every verse seriously, and be fearful, of belittling any verse.

Wishing you well, Ma'asalama.

[Ibn Yahya]

So you believe that a certain lineage from the Prophet (specifically from Husayn's descendants) are the sole guides paired with the Qur'an?

[Link]

Ibn Yahya, counter question, do you believe a person not chosen by God can be said to represent God and that following him would be following God as far as guidance goes?

I do believe we can inspire others and be leaders in that sense or can guide people to certain things if we show them by means of reason, that we can by following the truth, manifest beautiful virtues, but I don't believe non-appointed people by God can be a door to God, that following him would be following God in the sense of following for guidance to God.

I also believe this is true of any group of non-appointed people by God, that collectively, they can't be said that following them would be following God.

None of them hold that authority which believing in would believing in the authority of God and his role in guiding humanity.

None of them hold the position that people must follow them neither do they hold position that it's alright if people do follow them.

Rather, people must rely on God, and be guided by God. God guides to the truth and the means he does so has been explained in Quran.

From who he has created are a people who guide by the truth and who he has manifested their positions, making them ways, and yes they are grandchildren of a founder to that nation.

We have to follow ONLY what God has brought down, and he has brought down a reminder, which is a Messenger as well as a book, and the light down brought down with him is also the Imams as well as the Quran, the people who guide by the truth and don't mix in it any falsehood, the Imams who guide by his command.

This doesn't mean we cannot learn from each other, but the axis of authority, and the springs we are suppose to drink from, are suppose to be the chosen ones.

[Abu Muhammad]

Bro Link,

I ask you to just BE REALISTIC for once. In terms of following the guidance via infallible, Sunni and Twelvers, in principle, ARE JUST THE SAME. Trace back both Sunni and Twelvers histories. For more than 1,100 years, despite claiming the need of having infallible guides to guide them, Twelvers are not directly guided by the so called infallible. Since the ghaybah, you are following fallible Ulama' who studied the words of imams (so-called infallibles). Same goes to us, for more than 1,400 years, we are following fallible Ulama' who studied the words of Muhammad s.a.w. (infallible).

You can go on talking till the end of time the need of infallible guides to guide us to the truth but that is just a fantasy. Never ever match with your own reality.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Lol so khameini, sistani & nasrullah are infallible? No. Exactly!!
Your own theory of imamate died out over a thousand years ago.

[Link]

Abu Mohammad

Shiites do follow their scholars, but as you see, it has lead to division and hatred between ourselves. It has lead us to obey leaders while disobeying the Quran.

The Quran commands people to all become Rabaniyoon themselves, and teach the book and study themselves, and that the followers of Prophets ought to be an army of Rabaniyoon.

When ever this structure takes a place in a society where people don't take responsibility to judge by what God revealed and refer things back to God's revelation, it leads to corruption of the religion and worship of the Taghut all in the name of sincerity to God.

I believe the Quran and the teachings of Ahlulbayt [as] are realistic and would make an enlightened society that is full of love.

I believe the Quran has some teachings that if we pay attention to and stop taking it as a game and play thing, and stop taking our religion as a play thing, a guided nation of people would emerge.

[muslim720]

The Quran and Ahlulbayt are together, they go together, and they cannot be separated.  When one neglects one, the other is neglected, and they can only be followed together.

This statement of yours has no cohesiveness with the rest of your post or message.  I have experienced this first-hand when I used to spend time on ShiaChat.  Our Shia brothers paste long posts and towards the end, they squeeze in their "punch line", almost always disguised.

[Link]

The Quran and Ahlulbayt are together, they go together, and they cannot be separated.  When one neglects one, the other is neglected, and they can only be followed together.

This statement of yours has no cohesiveness with the rest of your post or message.  I have experienced this first-hand when I used to spend time on ShiaChat.  Our Shia brothers paste long posts and towards the end, they squeeze in their "punch line", almost always disguised.

What determined to you that was my punch line?

Of course it has to do with the message.

[Ibn Yahya]

Ibn Yahya, counter question, do you believe a person not chosen by God can be said to represent God and that following him would be following God as far as guidance goes?

I do believe we can inspire others and be leaders in that sense or can guide people to certain things if we show them by means of reason, that we can by following the truth, manifest beautiful virtues, but I don't believe non-appointed people by God can be a door to God, that following him would be following God in the sense of following for guidance to God.

I also believe this is true of any group of non-appointed people by God, that collectively, they can't be said that following them would be following God.

None of them hold that authority which believing in would believing in the authority of God and his role in guiding humanity.

None of them hold the position that people must follow them neither do they hold position that it's alright if people do follow them.

Rather, people must rely on God, and be guided by God. God guides to the truth and the means he does so has been explained in Quran.

From who he has created are a people who guide by the truth and who he has manifested their positions, making them ways, and yes they are grandchildren of a founder to that nation.

We have to follow ONLY what God has brought down, and he has brought down a reminder, which is a Messenger as well as a book, and the light down brought down with him is also the Imams as well as the Quran, the people who guide by the truth and don't mix in it any falsehood, the Imams who guide by his command.

This doesn't mean we cannot learn from each other, but the axis of authority, and the springs we are suppose to drink from, are suppose to be the chosen ones.

Thats all good but that leads to the question. Where is this infallible guidance?

[Link]

Ibn Yahya, counter question, do you believe a person not chosen by God can be said to represent God and that following him would be following God as far as guidance goes?

I do believe we can inspire others and be leaders in that sense or can guide people to certain things if we show them by means of reason, that we can by following the truth, manifest beautiful virtues, but I don't believe non-appointed people by God can be a door to God, that following him would be following God in the sense of following for guidance to God.

I also believe this is true of any group of non-appointed people by God, that collectively, they can't be said that following them would be following God.

None of them hold that authority which believing in would believing in the authority of God and his role in guiding humanity.

None of them hold the position that people must follow them neither do they hold position that it's alright if people do follow them.

Rather, people must rely on God, and be guided by God. God guides to the truth and the means he does so has been explained in Quran.

From who he has created are a people who guide by the truth and who he has manifested their positions, making them ways, and yes they are grandchildren of a founder to that nation.

We have to follow ONLY what God has brought down, and he has brought down a reminder, which is a Messenger as well as a book, and the light down brought down with him is also the Imams as well as the Quran, the people who guide by the truth and don't mix in it any falsehood, the Imams who guide by his command.

This doesn't mean we cannot learn from each other, but the axis of authority, and the springs we are suppose to drink from, are suppose to be the chosen ones.

Thats all good but that leads to the question. Where is this infallible guidance?

Define infallible guidance? I don't know what you mean by it. Even during the time of Moses and Aeron, despite having guidance, people didn't follow it.

God has promised a guidance from him will come to humanity. The question really is not the quality of his guidance, but if we are willing to follow.

When we believe and change our hearts, and rely on God, and rely on his name, everything becomes easy.

There is people who learn magic and have built better countries then Islamic countries today. Their ethics is higher, their civilization is higher, their knowledge of religions is more in depth, and at the same time, they are certain of the occult world, in which they have contact.

They can bring their magic and say, these are proofs we are guided, but Quran distinguishes between what is unclear and what is clear proof of a person claiming he is a Guide and ought to be followed on behalf of God.

They can say we are all theory and no substance like you.

There comes a choice,  will you rely on God or will you rely on people you don't know for certain are guided. This is while it's a certain fact God guides by the truth and so it's all about finding how he does so.

Your reasoning unfortunately, that since the Guide is hidden, we can rely on fallible people, does away with the whole argument for submission to God as the way and path.

People can argue if we don't need Guides today, why do we need them in the past. You can say but our scholars have to learn from a guide (Mohammad the Prophet) by God, but people can counter that argument and say, why though, why when you end up following people who are not chosen guides.

And people can say "teaching knowledge and showing enlightenment" is better then the system of Rijaal of just saying so and so is trustworthy and so and so is not, but rather, showing knowledge, teaching spirituality.

And people can say why one Angel Jebreil to one human being to receive a message, why can't we all communicate to Angels.

And then by this logic, of not relying on God, not distinguishing between his chosen ones and normal people, the hidden religion of the freemasons will become popular.

They will have their "avatar" (the Pharaoh) and his magicians and his followers, and they can mock, well where is your Jesus coming now, where is your Mahdi.

And then people will have to choose, do they wait for clear proof of a Guide or do they settle for people who have no clear proofs that they are guides.

And as long as humanity clings to want to follow low people, people who are not exalted and chosen way above the worlds,  then it will get so bad, that these people will claim to know the same things as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc, and that they can teach the sercet knowledge.

The thing is they also talk about "God's guidance" but what they mean by that, is what their group determines is enlightenment and guidance.

Your reasoning to me is refuted in the same way their reasoning is refuted, the way the Quran has refuted.

I could care less if the whole world unites on a leader without proof he is guided from God, you can count me out.

And magic won't convince me a person is truly guided, it has to be a full out clear sign and miracle, like the examples given in Quran.

I'll patiently wait, thank you, rather, then acknowledging the right of people to claim that should come to them, or follow them or be guided by them.........

I believe in God, the one who guides the believers, and takes them out of the darkness to the light, because he is the Master and give his authority to who he pleases.

I believe in confirming those who have clear proofs of their authority and never putting in their position people who don't, lest I rely on other then God's guidance.

[Abu Muhammad]

Shiites do follow their scholars, but as you see, it has lead to division and hatred between ourselves. It has lead us to obey leaders while disobeying the Quran.

If I'm talking from Twelvers perspective, that is because the one who should be guiding you the Twelvers is not doing his job he is supposed to do. Practically, he is not a guide. In fact, he is of no use. More than 1,100 years leaving his followers fighting to death due to the differences they have. I'm truly sorry if it sounds harsh but what else you can say.

Or you should start asking yourself this - "Does this guy really exist?"

Abu Mohammad

Shiites do follow their scholars, but as you see, it has lead to division and hatred between ourselves. It has lead us to obey leaders while disobeying the Quran.

The Quran commands people to all become Rabaniyoon themselves, and teach the book and study themselves, and that the followers of Prophets ought to be an army of Rabaniyoon.

When ever this structure takes a place in a society where people don't take responsibility to judge by what God revealed and refer things back to God's revelation, it leads to corruption of the religion and worship of the Taghut all in the name of sincerity to God.

I believe the Quran and the teachings of Ahlulbayt [as] are realistic and would make an enlightened society that is full of love.

I believe the Quran has some teachings that if we pay attention to and stop taking it as a game and play thing, and stop taking our religion as a play thing, a guided nation of people would emerge.

Frankly speaking, from this writing of yours, I started to wonder whether you are really a Twelver. You sound more like an offshoot of a Sunni sect instead of a Twelver.

[Bolani Muslim]

Frankly speaking, from this writing of yours, I started to wonder whether you are really a Twelver. You sound more like an offshoot of a Sunni sect instead of a Twelver.

He was an Atheist for a few years, probably was/is depressed, and hasn't responded to any of the points we asked him. Him coming back to 'Islam' is his way of finding a purpose for himself, something emotional. One main difference between ex-Sunnis and ex-Shias is the search for, often perceived, intellect (Ahlul Sunnah and similar groups) vs spirituality (12er Shia, crazy Sufi, etc). As Sunnis, we emphasize Quran, Hadith+Gradings, Sunnahs (extra prayers), logic, and intellect whereas the other groups focus on non-Sunnah traditions (e.g matam, poems, holidays), 'stories' without proper sanad (e.g details of Jamal), matters of aqeedah that have no basis in the Quran, Sunnah, or logic (e.g Imammat). What more do you expect from a guy like this?

[Ebn Hussein]

Link, I know you know for more than 10 years, you are still a Zindiq, clinging to a fairy tale calling to the non-existent wilayah of your 11 fallibles (the 12th is a lie to strip you dumb Rafidis of your money). At least be as sincere as those Shias who know that in order to prove Shiism one must believe in a different Qur'an where all your nostalic Imams are mentioned on every page. As for the Muslim Qur'an, wallahi it has more proof for following the muhajirin and ansar than any of your Imams. Don't waste peoples times with your falsafa.

[Ibn Yahya]

Define infallible guidance? I don't know what you mean by it. Even during the time of Moses and Aeron, despite having guidance, people didn't follow it.

God has promised a guidance from him will come to humanity. The question really is not the quality of his guidance, but if we are willing to follow.

When we believe and change our hearts, and rely on God, and rely on his name, everything becomes easy.

There is people who learn magic and have built better countries then Islamic countries today. Their ethics is higher, their civilization is higher, their knowledge of religions is more in depth, and at the same time, they are certain of the occult world, in which they have contact.

They can bring their magic and say, these are proofs we are guided, but Quran distinguishes between what is unclear and what is clear proof of a person claiming he is a Guide and ought to be followed on behalf of God.

They can say we are all theory and no substance like you.

There comes a choice,  will you rely on God or will you rely on people you don't know for certain are guided. This is while it's a certain fact God guides by the truth and so it's all about finding how he does so.

Your reasoning unfortunately, that since the Guide is hidden, we can rely on fallible people, does away with the whole argument for submission to God as the way and path.

People can argue if we don't need Guides today, why do we need them in the past. You can say but our scholars have to learn from a guide (Mohammad the Prophet) by God, but people can counter that argument and say, why though, why when you end up following people who are not chosen guides.

And people can say "teaching knowledge and showing enlightenment" is better then the system of Rijaal of just saying so and so is trustworthy and so and so is not, but rather, showing knowledge, teaching spirituality.

And people can say why one Angel Jebreil to one human being to receive a message, why can't we all communicate to Angels.

And then by this logic, of not relying on God, not distinguishing between his chosen ones and normal people, the hidden religion of the freemasons will become popular.

They will have their "avatar" (the Pharaoh) and his magicians and his followers, and they can mock, well where is your Jesus coming now, where is your Mahdi.

And then people will have to choose, do they wait for clear proof of a Guide or do they settle for people who have no clear proofs that they are guides.

And as long as humanity clings to want to follow low people, people who are not exalted and chosen way above the worlds,  then it will get so bad, that these people will claim to know the same things as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc, and that they can teach the sercet knowledge.

The thing is they also talk about "God's guidance" but what they mean by that, is what their group determines is enlightenment and guidance.

Your reasoning to me is refuted in the same way their reasoning is refuted, the way the Quran has refuted.

I could care less if the whole world unites on a leader without proof he is guided from God, you can count me out.

And magic won't convince me a person is truly guided, it has to be a full out clear sign and miracle, like the examples given in Quran.

I'll patiently wait, thank you, rather, then acknowledging the right of people to claim that should come to them, or follow them or be guided by them.........

I believe in God, the one who guides the believers, and takes them out of the darkness to the light, because he is the Master and give his authority to who he pleases.

I believe in confirming those who have clear proofs of their authority and never putting in their position people who don't, lest I rely on other then God's guidance.

Once again instead of answering the question you proceed to switch topics. So I'm going to explain my question to you. You are a Twelver. Twelvers believe in 12 infallible imams, so is it safe to assume their guidance is infallible as well? You don't need to change the topic to the meaning of infallible guidance because I know you know what I'm talking about and I know what Twelvers mean when they talk about infallibility with regards to the Imams because believe it or not I was one once.

Your main criticism of Ahl as-Sunnah here is that we don't have a chosen guide. Well neither do you because if you do then I want you to go ask him why he chooses to not to reveal himself since his involvement in the lives of Shi'is is so active. Type me his answer.