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Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine

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Hani

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2016, 08:56:44 PM »

Two things, brother. The first being the sunni hadith you provided were Bibi Fatima (sa) supposedly agreed with Abu Bakr is false and you know it as well. I present to you just one hadith where this conversation between Abu Bakr and Bibi Fatima (sa) didn't go as the abovementioned hadith depicts;

Volume 4, Book 53, Number 325:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(mother of the believers) After the death of Allah 's Apostle Fatima the daughter of Allah's Apostle asked Abu Bakr As-Siddiq to give her, her share of inheritance from what Allah's Apostle had left of the Fai (i.e. booty gained without fighting) which Allah had given him. Abu Bakr said to her, "Allah's Apostle said, 'Our property will not be inherited, whatever we (i.e. prophets) leave is Sadaqa (to be used for charity)." Fatima, the daughter of Allah's Apostle got angry and stopped speaking to Abu Bakr, and continued assuming that attitude till she died. Fatima remained alive for six months after the death of Allah's Apostle.


A- They were all sadaqa and should've been dealt with in the manner that Prophet Muhammad (sawa) asked them to ( Supposedly ).

B- Umar went astray by going against what Abu Bakr said about using it for charity and giving it away to a person who is not supposed to eat from charity at all ?



The main reason you're doing so poorly in this debate is because you wrote "Ya Ali Madad" in your signature, notice how no success is reaching you.

So again you're wrong about the narration being "False", it is indeed true and she did say it according to the authentic report. That doesn't mean she wasn't angry still. She said it out of politeness as she knows that Abu Bakr wouldn't lie but at the same time she's upset that the land was taken away from her family and children as well as the authority.

Abu Bakr dealt with the Sadaqah of the Prophet (saw) the same way the Prophet (saw) himself dealt with it.

As for `Umar, he never gave them those lands, he just placed them in charge of it as `Ummal instead of appointing a government official to do so.



عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2016, 09:17:27 PM »

Your lack of success continues because of your silly profile pic "BULB" which means "bar Umar lanat beshumar" further showing you're an average typical Shia.



You wrote:


Quote
As ypu can see, the hadith clearly states that Ali (as) and Abbas (ra) both considered Abu Bakr to be a liar and trecherous when he made this claim. Neither did Ali (as) say at that time that the prophet said such a thing.


Well `Ali is a greedy sinner according to your understanding because he admitted that the Prophet (saw) said so then he went and said that the man was a traitor for using the land the same way the Prophet (saw) did. So according to your understanding `Ali is a greedy fraud who's trying to take money out of people's mouth to feed himself.


Now listen to the understanding of Ahlul-Sunnah:
http://twelvershia.net/2013/11/14/response-to-maula-ali-as-considered-abu-bakr-and-umar-to-be-the-accursed-ones/


When `Umar said "You viewed him as a traitor and sinner" he didn't mean that they actually said that, he means they both acted in a way as if Abu Bakr was wrong in his judgement, even though they both knew he was right. `Ali later admits to Abu Bakr being right after he renews his pledge to him.


You wrote:


Quote
We look at Quran for looking for prophets and their inheritance;


“Solomon was thankful to his Lord for these blessing bestowed on him: ‘And Solomon was David’s Heir. And he said ‘O mankind! We have been taught the language of birds, and have been given (abundance) all things. This surely is evidence favour” [Surah Saba Verse 12]


That's assuming you hold the opinion that the narration is stating all prophets do not leave behind inheritance and this is false in my opinion, the narration was only referring to our Prophet (saw).


I add, if you hold the other view then that still works as the inheritance in the verse was not that of wealth rather another one as your own Imams state:



أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْجَبَّارِ عَنْ صَفْوَانَ بْنِ يَحْيَى عَنْ شُعَيْبٍ الْحَدَّادِ عَنْ ضُرَيْسٍ الْكُنَاسِيِّ قَالَ كُنْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) وَ عِنْدَهُ أَبُو بَصِيرٍ فَقَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) إِنَّ دَاوُدَ وَرِثَ عِلْمَ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ وَ إِنَّ سُلَيْمَانَ وَرِثَ دَاوُدَ وَ إِنَّ مُحَمَّداً ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَرِثَ سُلَيْمَانَ وَ إِنَّا وَرِثْنَا مُحَمَّداً ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ إِنَّ عِنْدَنَا صُحُفَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَ أَلْوَاحَ مُوسَى


[Ahmad bin Idris, from Muhammad bin `Abdul-Jabbar, from Safwan bin Yahya, from Shu`ayb al-Haddad, from Durays al-Kanasi that he said: I was with abu `Abdillah (as) and with him was abu Basir, so abu `Abdullah (as) said: “Dawud inherited the knowledge of the prophets, and Sulayman inherited Dawud, and Muhammad (saw) inherited Sulayman, and we inherited Muhammad (saw), and we have the Mushaf of Ibrahim and the tablets of Musa…]


You said:



Quote

The only one thing I would like to ask you is why did Imam Ali (as) not stop his wife Bibi Fatima (sa) from asking for fadak if he had truly heard this hadith before and the hadith of Muslim says otherwise. Why would Bibi Fatima (sa) go to ask Abu Bakr for Fadak if they were never meant to have it ?


Maybe she wasn't convinced by `Ali's words and wanted to hear it from Abu Bakr's mouth OR they simply thought they get to keep the lands but they'd use them for charity OR `Ali hadn't even discussed the matter with her as everything happened very quickly since this event happened right after Abu Bakr was given a public Bay`ah.


You wrote:



Quote

Does this leave us to assume that Bibi Fatima (sa) was hungry for a piece of land and had no knowledge of the hadith of her father ? Also, it wasn't Aisha that stopped the other wives that asked for their inheritance, it was her and hafsa who went to Uthman to ask for their share and Uthman sent them back by saying " Wasn't it you two who testified against fatima (sa) when she asked for her share by agreeing with Abu Bakr's statement " according to Kitab Sulaym Ibn Qays.


Don't quote a random forged book that appeared out of nowhere in the hands of Ibn Udhaynah who attributed it to a dead man who took it secretly from another man right before his death. The story of this book alone is enough to flush it down the drain.







عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2016, 01:46:11 AM »


Your lack of success continues because of your silly profile pic "BULB" which means "bar Umar lanat beshumar" further showing you're an average typical Shia.



You wrote:


Quote
As ypu can see, the hadith clearly states that Ali (as) and Abbas (ra) both considered Abu Bakr to be a liar and trecherous when he made this claim. Neither did Ali (as) say at that time that the prophet said such a thing.


Quote
Well `Ali is a greedy sinner according to your understanding because he admitted that the Prophet (saw) said so then he went and said that the man was a traitor for using the land the same way the Prophet (saw) did. So according to your understanding `Ali is a greedy fraud who's trying to take money out of people's mouth to feed himself.

Lolololololol. Did I hit a soft spot. Was he lying the first time he called Abu Bakr a liar and also the accusation came from Abbas ? Why won't you believe Abbas the first time but soon as he starts to call Ali (as) a liar, you're all agreeing with him ? Umar said it. He said that both of them though Abu Bakr and Umar during their " succession." Come on guys. I thought you could do better.


Now listen to the understanding of Ahlul-Sunnah:
http://twelvershia.net/2013/11/14/response-to-maula-ali-as-considered-abu-bakr-and-umar-to-be-the-accursed-ones/


Quote
When `Umar said "You viewed him as a traitor and sinner" he didn't mean that they actually said that, he means they both acted in a way as if Abu Bakr was wrong in his judgement, even though they both knew he was right. `Ali later admits to Abu Bakr being right after he renews his pledge to him.

Then why should we take Abbas seriously this time around ? Because he's speaking against Ali (as) and the nasibi in you just wants to see that ?

You wrote:


Quote
We look at Quran for looking for prophets and their inheritance;


“Solomon was thankful to his Lord for these blessing bestowed on him: ‘And Solomon was David’s Heir. And he said ‘O mankind! We have been taught the language of birds, and have been given (abundance) all things. This surely is evidence favour” [Surah Saba Verse 12]


That's assuming you hold the opinion that the narration is stating all prophets do not leave behind inheritance and this is false in my opinion, the narration was only referring to our Prophet (saw).


Quote
I add, if you hold the other view then that still works as the inheritance in the verse was not that of wealth rather another one as your own Imams state:



أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْجَبَّارِ عَنْ صَفْوَانَ بْنِ يَحْيَى عَنْ شُعَيْبٍ الْحَدَّادِ عَنْ ضُرَيْسٍ الْكُنَاسِيِّ قَالَ كُنْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) وَ عِنْدَهُ أَبُو بَصِيرٍ فَقَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) إِنَّ دَاوُدَ وَرِثَ عِلْمَ الْأَنْبِيَاءِ وَ إِنَّ سُلَيْمَانَ وَرِثَ دَاوُدَ وَ إِنَّ مُحَمَّداً ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَرِثَ سُلَيْمَانَ وَ إِنَّا وَرِثْنَا مُحَمَّداً ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) وَ إِنَّ عِنْدَنَا صُحُفَ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَ أَلْوَاحَ مُوسَى


[Ahmad bin Idris, from Muhammad bin `Abdul-Jabbar, from Safwan bin Yahya, from Shu`ayb al-Haddad, from Durays al-Kanasi that he said: I was with abu `Abdillah (as) and with him was abu Basir, so abu `Abdullah (as) said: “Dawud inherited the knowledge of the prophets, and Sulayman inherited Dawud, and Muhammad (saw) inherited Sulayman, and we inherited Muhammad (saw), and we have the Mushaf of Ibrahim and the tablets of Musa…]

All of a sudden you believe in Shia narrations of the Imams inheriting the knowledge of Prophet Muhammad (sawa) yet you have scholars that are giving you the fiqh opinions of just hearing the words of the Imams ?


You said:



Quote

The only one thing I would like to ask you is why did Imam Ali (as) not stop his wife Bibi Fatima (sa) from asking for fadak if he had truly heard this hadith before and the hadith of Muslim says otherwise. Why would Bibi Fatima (sa) go to ask Abu Bakr for Fadak if they were never meant to have it ?


Quote
Maybe she wasn't convinced by `Ali's words and wanted to hear it from Abu Bakr's mouth OR they simply thought they get to keep the lands but they'd use them for charity OR `Ali hadn't even discussed the matter with her as everything happened very quickly since this event happened right after Abu Bakr was given a public Bay`ah.

Another assumption.. Why did she not ask him for her inheritance when they showed up to her house to get the bayah of Ali (as) where Umar had his nose broken ?


You wrote:



Quote

Does this leave us to assume that Bibi Fatima (sa) was hungry for a piece of land and had no knowledge of the hadith of her father ? Also, it wasn't Aisha that stopped the other wives that asked for their inheritance, it was her and hafsa who went to Uthman to ask for their share and Uthman sent them back by saying " Wasn't it you two who testified against fatima (sa) when she asked for her share by agreeing with Abu Bakr's statement " according to Kitab Sulaym Ibn Qays.


Quote
Don't quote a random forged book that appeared out of nowhere in the hands of Ibn Udhaynah who attributed it to a dead man who took it secretly from another man right before his death. The story of this book alone is enough to flush it down the drain.

Perhaps it is forged for you. The copy I have has been carefully looked over and has been written with correct ahadith from neumerous copies of it that survived. The ahadith have been cited in a number of major Shia books and of course that doesn't matter to you.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Hani

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2016, 02:20:19 AM »


Lolololololol. Did I hit a soft spot. Was he lying the first time he called Abu Bakr a liar and also the accusation came from Abbas ? Why won't you believe Abbas the first time but soon as he starts to call Ali (as) a liar, you're all agreeing with him ? Umar said it. He said that both of them though Abu Bakr and Umar during their " succession." Come on guys. I thought you could do better.

I just explained it to you, refer to my earlier post as well as the link I provided. I clearly reconciled whereas you made `Ali look like a greedy liar, shame on you, how can you call yourself a Shia?



Quote
All of a sudden you believe in Shia narrations of the Imams inheriting the knowledge of Prophet Muhammad (sawa) yet you have scholars that are giving you the fiqh opinions of just hearing the words of the Imams ?


I don't believe in them but they're binding upon you and they agree with the position of many Sunni scholars who said the inheritance was that of knowledge and position.




Quote
Another assumption.. Why did she not ask him for her inheritance when they showed up to her house to get the bayah of Ali (as) where Umar had his nose broken ?


Your Persian overlords are the ones who had their noses broken. `Umar married `Ali's daughter and `Ali named his son `Umar as a reward for him and also appointed his son `Abdullah as governor. `Ali must really love `Umar no?

Quote
Perhaps it is forged for you. The copy I have has been carefully looked over and has been written with correct ahadith from neumerous copies of it that survived. The ahadith have been cited in a number of major Shia books and of course that doesn't matter to you.


That's why some of your own scholars cast doubt on it. It's a failed book by an unknown author that suddenly appeared in the hands of `Umar bin Udhaynah the Rafidi Shaykh, this Rafidi attributed it to ibn abi `Ayyash who was dead so there was no way to verify this, and ibn abi `Ayyash supposedly said he received it from Sulaym in secret before his death and nobody knew about it. The book is shady and not worth a cent.


Quote
Ya Ali (as) Madad.


Ya Allah madad. As you can see Allah is granting me success, `Ali isn't granting you anything.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2016, 03:04:19 AM »
Which success are you talking about ? You haven't answered anything ? You present a Shia hadith and when you're questioned on it, you go ahead and deny it. You presented a hadith where an Imam (as) is saying that he inherited the knowledge of Prophet Muhammad (sawa) yet you forget that there have been no mentions made about any materialistic possession. Yes, I'm aware of the Al Kafi narrations as well that the scholars are the hiers of The Prophet (sawa) and also the Imams (asws). Where does it mention any materialistic possession ? The book is not worth a cent to you because you're in denial lol. Such a strawman argument you've concocted, especially the one where Ali (as) named his son after Umar hahahahahaha.

Ya Ali (as) Madad.
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2016, 03:33:20 AM »

Quote
Your Persian overlords are the ones who had their noses broken. `Umar married `Ali's daughter and `Ali named his son `Umar as a reward for him and also appointed his son `Abdullah as governor. `Ali must really love `Umar no?

The silly habit of nasibis and their worries with Iran. Why can't Shia be from any other country ?
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Hani

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2016, 03:49:17 AM »
I've answered everything bro, you seem to be in denial. Once you succeed in writing anything that makes sense I'll return to refute those too. Take your time and try to think of something intelligent.

Laughing it out won't make your failure look better.

:)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 03:51:58 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2016, 05:02:10 AM »
I've answered everything bro, you seem to be in denial. Once you succeed in writing anything that makes sense I'll return to refute those too. Take your time and try to think of something intelligent.

Laughing it out won't make your failure look better.

:)

Lol when you get an answer for my questions, do come back.
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Hani

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2016, 05:04:10 AM »

Lol when you get an answer for my questions, do come back.

Lol and when you have a new question which isn't already answered in this thread, do come back.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2016, 06:41:33 AM »

Quote
Lol and when you have a new question which isn't already answered in this thread, do come back.

Brother, in you response it clearly say that Abbas was accusing Ali (as) and had also done the same at the time of Abu Bakr and Umar. Umar interviened by saying " You though him ( Abu Bakr ) to be a liar and trecherous." Same thing has taken place here meaning it was Abbas who wanted the land for himself, not Ali (as). He made the claim and Ali (as) didn't contest him in front of Abu Bakr and neither did he stop himslef from talking back to Abbas.

That just goes to prove that they neither believed the shaykhain to be truthful and neither did they agree to what he said in regarda to hearing the hadith of Prophet Muhammad (sawa).
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2016, 11:40:14 AM »
I've read that brother. And, this is doing exactly what you're accusing me of; taking things out of context and starting off at the accusation of Abbas.
It is because in that incident, it was Abbas(RA) who FIRST used those words for Ali(RA). THEN Umar(RA) used it as an ASSUMPTION. So obviously the one who used FIRST should be discussed first, that is inline with the context. Makes sense now?

Quote
You said they were calling Ali (as) that
I didn't say, "THEY" were calling Ali(RA), I said ONLY Abbas(RA) said those words. So again you misunderstood, even after reading everything as you claim. Great.

Quote
and then you said he didn't call the shaykhain that.
Yes, he didn't. Nowhere will you find, Ali(RA) SAID or Abbas SAID, rather those words are of Umar(RA) who said, YOU BOTH THOUGHT.... , so see its an assumption of Umar(RA), why he said that? Then as I said earlier refer the context, which you deliberately avoid. It was because Abbas(RA) FIRST USED IT FOR ALI(RA), so Umar(RA) was making use of rhetoric.

Umar did not approve of Abbas’s words against Ali; Umar took the correct view that people can get in arguments and make honest mistakes and nobody should simply jump to strong personal attacks like Abbas did against Ali, calling him a “liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest.” Therefore, Umar repeated the words of Abbas verbatim in order to prove a point, Umar was just making use of rhetoric. This is an example of, (reductio ad absurdum; Latin: “reduction to the absurd”) also known as an apagogical argument, which is a type of logical argument where one assumes a claim for the sake of argument, derives an absurd or ridiculous outcome, and then concludes that the original assumption must have been wrong as it led to an absurd result.

We would like to give an example just to enrich the mind: A mother and father who had told their two sons that the capitol of France was Paris. A few days later, the two sons get in an argument over the capitol of France. One brother says the capitol is Berlin, whereas the other says the capitol is London. When they go to their father to arbitrate over this matter, one brother says about the other: “Father, can you settle this dispute of mine with my idiot brother who thinks the capitol of France is Berlin?” The father is not appalled at the fact that his two little sons forgot the capitol of France; this is a mistake that anybody can make. But what he is appalled at is the language used by this son, calling his brother an “idiot.” The father then says: “So you thought of Mom as an idiot when she said that Paris was the capitol of France, and you thought I was an idiot when I said that too?” By saying this, the father is trying to dissuade the son from jumping to conclusions about his brother’s character, because in such a process, he would also believe his mother and father to be idiots as well.

Hence, Umar was simply repeating the words of Abbas verbatim. How can the Shias ignore this “coincidence” especially in light of Arabic Balagha? It is obvious from this that Umar was proving a point, and his words should thus be analyzed in this context. Another important observation is that the Shia propagandists will say that it was Ali who called Abu Bakr and Umar to be a “liar, sinful, treacherous, and dishonest.” But the reality is that, it was merely Umar who said that Abbas was implying this. There is a significant point.


Quote
It's clear as day that they didn't agree with the statement of Abu Bakr, so much so, that even Umar had to mention it.
Well the apparent wording of Ali(RA) and Abbas(RA) shows they believed in the hadeeth reported by Abu bakr(RA), unless you bring the Shia master excuse of Taqiyyah. The most dumbest one though.

This is from the same hadeeth you quoted:

Then he(Umar) turned to abbas and ‘ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don’t you know that the messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said:” We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity”? They (too) said: Yes.

So Again, you proved what I said earlier, you either didn't read the hadeeth or you don't understand english properly. 

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2016, 01:10:18 PM »
Quote
I didn't say, "THEY" were calling Ali(RA), I said ONLY Abbas(RA) said those words. So again you misunderstood, even after reading everything as you claim. Great.

Quote
and then you said he didn't call the shaykhain that.
Quote
Yes, he didn't. Nowhere will you find, Ali(RA) SAID or Abbas SAID, rather those words are of Umar(RA) who said, YOU BOTH THOUGHT.... , so see its an assumption of Umar(RA), why he said that? Then as I said earlier refer the context, which you deliberately avoid. It was because Abbas(RA) FIRST USED IT FOR ALI(RA), so Umar(RA) was making use of rhetoric

Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2016, 01:34:47 PM »
Quote
I didn't say, "THEY" were calling Ali(RA), I said ONLY Abbas(RA) said those words. So again you misunderstood, even after reading everything as you claim. Great.

Quote
and then you said he didn't call the shaykhain that.
Quote
Yes, he didn't. Nowhere will you find, Ali(RA) SAID or Abbas SAID, rather those words are of Umar(RA) who said, YOU BOTH THOUGHT.... , so see its an assumption of Umar(RA), why he said that? Then as I said earlier refer the context, which you deliberately avoid. It was because Abbas(RA) FIRST USED IT FOR ALI(RA), so Umar(RA) was making use of rhetoric

Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.

I don't remember if this is the forth time or fifth time, I advice you to read the context, but seems you are determined not to. Anyways let us see, with what claim did they approach Umar(RA),  did they go to ask it as owners or trustees.

Umar said: Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used it. (Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349)

Umar said: I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used it. (Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4349)

So what the words of Umar(RA) mean is that`Ali asked for his wife’s part to be entrusted to him and al-`Abbas asked for his nephew’s part to be entrusted to him.

 It is clear that both Abbas and Ali understood that although the produce of the land goes to charity, yet they viewed that, they can still manage the share which they would have got as inheritance, by being its trustees, and eat from it, since the Prophet (saw) said: “The family of Muhammad may eat from it.” To them being in control of this Waqf did not pose any contradiction to the prophetic narration.

So they went to Umar(RA) to be entrusted with that property, they didn't demand it has their own property. Got the point? So read it in context, and stop picking statement from here and there.

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2016, 12:34:44 AM »


Quote
I don't remember if this is the forth time or fifth time, I advice you to read the context, but seems you are determined not to. Anyways let us see, with what claim did they approach Umar(RA),  did they go to ask it as owners or trustees.
Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest.

Who here is " both of you " ? Who is the true, virtuous and well guided ?
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2016, 12:57:34 AM »
Who here is " both of you " ? Who is the true, virtuous and well guided ?
Everything has been answered and clarified with solid evidences, but you have started running in circle, since you are too arrogant to accept that you are wrong in your argument.


Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2016, 02:57:04 AM »
Quote
Everything has been answered and clarified with solid evidences, but you have started running in circle, since you are too arrogant to accept that you are wrong in your argument.

Are you kidding me ? It's you that's going in circles and trying to avoid the question. Your " Response " starts in the middle of the hadith where Abbas is calling Ali (as) a liar. You have made no mention of why Abbas and Ali (as) thought abu bakr to be a liar and it's evident from reading the hadith that they did that. As for the land being " Waqf " how come the only people that knew of this were Umar and Abu Bakr ? Don't tell me that Abbas and Ali (as) weren't familiar with this hadith. If they were familiar then they wouldn't have gone to ask for their share and if they weren't it's clear from the hadith they disagreed with Abu Bakr.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 02:58:39 AM by Qalander Rafidhi »
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2016, 04:56:56 AM »

Quote
Everything has been answered and clarified with solid evidences, but you have started running in circle, since you are too arrogant to accept that you are wrong in your argument.

Don't try to tell me that Bibi Fatima (sa) was informed by Ali (as) about this hadith and yet, she still went to Abu Bakr because she didn't believe Ali (as) lol. Clearly in your eyes Ali (as) was a liar even in the eyes of his family. Abbas is another example. He wouldn't need to go asking Abu Bakr for his share if he actually thought them to be honest and went there even after knowing the hadith beforehand.
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Husayn

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2016, 06:47:54 AM »
This is typical of the deviant sects.

Nitpicking and petty arguments over nothing.

Keep in mind - this rafidi doesn't actually care about anything in Sahih al-Bukhari - except the ahadith that his sect can twist for their own purposes.

We can simply show him:

Quote
Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20

Narrated by Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya

I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Allah's Apostle ?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraid he would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person.

This rafidi will then reject the hadith based on his own whims and desires - typical of the deviant sects.

The issue, when you get right down to it, is they see the Seerah and Tarikh through a microscope. They concentrate on singular events whose meaning they can corrupt with their deviancy - while ignoring the rest of it which refutes their satanic religion.
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Qalander Rafidhi

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2016, 07:20:01 AM »

Quote
This is typical of the deviant sects.

Nitpicking and petty arguments over nothing.

Keep in mind - this rafidi doesn't actually care about anything in Sahih al-Bukhari - except the ahadith that his sect can twist for their own purposes.

We can simply show him:

Quote
Volume 5, Book 57, Number 20

Narrated by Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiya

I asked my father ('Ali bin Abi Talib), "Who are the best people after Allah's Apostle ?" He said, "Abu Bakr." I asked, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar. " I was afraid he would say "Uthman, so I said, "Then you?" He said, "I am only an ordinary person.

This rafidi will then reject the hadith based on his own whims and desires - typical of the deviant sects.

Perhaps, you would like to tell me why did Abbas and Ali (as) thought Abu Bakr to be a liar when he declared that the Prophet didn't have any hiers for his materialistic possession ?

That's the level of humility of Ali (as). Don't take it so literally. You must be aware of the election that took place where they had already chosen a leader for themselves ? At hearing this, both Abu and Ummu left the funeral of Prophet Muhammad (sawa) and rushed to the election and told them what they're doing is wrong ? Does that ring a bell ? Care to tell me if people really thought Abu Bakr to be the most deserving then why did the election start in their absence ?

4:11:
 
"Allah enjoins you about [the share of inheritance of] your children: A male's share shall equal that of two females -- in case there are only daughters, more than two shall have two-thirds of what has been left behind. And if there be only one daughter, her share shall be half -- and if the deceased has children, the parents shall inherit a sixth each, and if he has no children and the parents are his heirs then his mother shall receive a third, and if he has brothers and sisters then the mother's share is the same one-sixth. [These shares shall be distributed] after carrying out any will made by the deceased or payment of any debt owed by him (the deceased). You know not who among your children and your parents are nearest to you in benefit. This is the law of Allah. Indeed Allah is wise, all knowing."

4:176:
 
"They ask you. Say: Allah enjoins you about your kalalah heirs that if a man dies childless and he has only a sister, she shall inherit half of what he leaves; and if she  dies childless, then her brother shall be her heir; and if their are two sisters, they shall inherit two-thirds of what he [or she] leaves. If there are many brothers and sisters, the share of each male should be that of two females. Allah makes [His commands] clear to you, so that you do not err. Allah has knowledge of all things."

Does this not apply to Prophet Muhammad (sawa):

Volume 4, Book 51, Number 1 :
Narrated by Abdullah bin Umar
Allah's Apostle said, "It is not permissible for any Muslim who has something to will to stay for two nights without having his last will and testament written and kept ready with him."

Why did he give away whatever he had in charity without even giving anything to his children even if giving one third is too much in charity ?

Volume 4, Book 51, Number 5 :
Narrated by Sad bin Abu Waqqas
The Prophet came visiting me while I was (sick) in Mecca, ('Amir the sub-narrator said, and he disliked to die in the land, whence he had already migrated). He (i.e. the Prophet) said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on Ibn Afra (Sad bin Khaula)." I said, "O Allah's Apostle! May I will all my property (in charity)?" He said, "No." I said, "Then may I will half of it?" He said, "No". I said, "One third?" He said: "Yes, one third, yet even one third is too much. It is better for you to leave your inheritors wealthy than to leave them poor begging others, and whatever you spend for Allah's sake will be considered as a charitable deed even the handful of food you put in your wife's mouth. Allah may lengthen your age so that some people may benefit by you, and some others be harmed by you." At that time Sad had only one daughter.

Why is inheritance is being given such emphasis, yet, when it comes to the Prophet of Allah (swt) you all believe everything he had was to be given in charity, even though you admit that his family was eating from it during his lifetime ?

Volume 4, Book 51, Number 10 :
Narrated by Ibn 'Abbas
The custom (in old days) was that the property of the deceased would be inherited by his offspring; as for the parents (of the deceased), they would inherit by the will of the deceased. Then Allah cancelled from that custom whatever He wished and fixed for the male double the amount inherited by the female, and for each parent a sixth (of the whole legacy) and for the wife an eighth or a fourth and for the husband a half or a fourth.

If we are to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (sawa) and he said advised people to give the inheritance of the deceased to the children, how is that these don't apply to him ? If they don't apply to him then the charity rule doesn't apply to him either since it was his exclusive property and he was eating from it during his lifetime and didn't give it all away while he was alive. It's funny that not even his wives knew of the hadith yet somehow abu bakr and umar & co managed to hear it and none of the prophets children or wives except for aisha heard it.
Ya Ali (as) Madad

Husayn

Re: Verse 33:33 - Gender change from feminine to masculine
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2016, 07:27:06 AM »
Please advise me why 'Ali (ra) insulted Abu Bakr (ra) when he was supposedly doing taqiyyah out of fear for his life?

And why did he insult Abu Bakr (ra) infront of 'Umar (ra), the guy that killed his wife and burned his house?

Why didn't the cold-blooded murderer 'Umar (ra) just execute him then and there? Why did he even leave him alive?

And he's insulting Abu Bakr (ra) in the court of the bloody thirsty tyrant Caliph 'Umar (ra)?

Wasn't he told to be patient and keep his mouth shut (as per your rafidi fabrications)?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 07:30:24 AM by Husayn »
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

 

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