TwelverShia.net Forum

Recent Posts

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10
1
I believe Messengers had these components.

Revelation from God in form of scripture.
Leadership.
Conveyance of God's Authority and establishing it.
Associates of Navigators in their cause, successors/predecessors.
Being Signs and Names of God.
Witnesses to humans.
Lights in darkness.

The Quran with respect to Resalah says when "Amrallah" came, all the time. So when Authority of God was established, through clear conveying of the proof.

And God to prove the need of Messengers says "it is upon God to provide conveying proof" .

But what is that proof and what is the purpose, "so we follow God's Ayat".

All these roles were emphasized.

When sealing Prophethood, there is no more scripture. This is a huge thing. We all have to understand and explain, why all this emphasis on Prophets but than make it end.

And it's all about unity and uniting people on the truth and rope of God.

The rope of God is always a leader coupled with a recitation from him. Only we know no more recitations.

So the Quran is different in that in must guide in all places and times to the end of day of judgement.

But does this ending do away with Leadership, does it do away with Captains navigating towards justice, does it do away with need of a group that convey and explain eloquently the words of their founders due a knot they had on their tongue due to propaganda from ignorance by people?

All this cannot be done away with.    Does a door from other than God become the means to God now?

Does all of sudden we don't need chosen Kings from God because God is not the true King because he sealed revelations.


My way is consistent. The reason for ending revelations is because it is all moving to the climax, mainly the Mahdi, from Ahlulbayt of Mohammad and Ali.

Fatima's grandson promised by the Prophet.

This is the purpose, so Prophet is obeyed, so Prophet is the judge the ruler, the leader who brings us forth from darkness, this is the purpose of successors and why Wilayah of Ali is so important.

Because in ending revelation,  obedience to the Prophet was the purpose, and so if you read Ulil-Amr and other verses all in context of proving ISlam and what Islam is, then it is clear.

And the context of Ulil-Amr is about religious leadership, the false and the true, the family of Abraham vd clergy of Jews and Christians, it is clear, and they are the envied people in 4:54 with no shadow of a doubt.

But you don't see the contradiction you can't end leadership, but you can end revelations only because the Quran is still here and hasn't dissapppeared, if it did, then believing end of Prophethood would be kufr.



2
1. No I don't see the difference in the way you are defining it.

2. A contradiction...you believe we need leaders from God and than believe we don't need leaders from God. It is rather upon you to show why the exception.  Otherwise all the same reasoning proving Messengers and that they were sent to be obeyed by God's permission proves Ulil-Amr and exactly who they are.

3. There are many proofs in Quran and Sunnah. But I am not going to bring all these proofs in this thread.

4. Then you are defining them with the same role of Leaders from God as Shiites define Imams.  And we are back to square one.
3
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Choosing a Leader based on Consultation and Consensus
« Last post by Link on Yesterday at 10:09:13 PM »
Political obedience is only allowed with guarding against the enemies of God, but you can't believe any legitimacy of governance and authority from other than God.   What I meant is believing legitimacy of leadership of God's enemies whether political, religious or spiritual. 

You must participate in fighting all leaders of disbelief, but this does not mean doing something stupid to get you killed by the enemies of God by which you become their partners in sin.

This where it is a balancing act, and where it not for the fighting aspect of leadership and brutal nature of government and the nature of fight of good vs evil, Imammate and Prophethood would not have been limited to Men but even Fatima and Mariam and Sarah would have been given Divine Leadership and position of navigating society to justice.

And as far "society affairs being runned", that is suppose to be in ghayba of Imam Mahdi, democratic anarchy. We aren't even supposed to think of it as top-down authority or else we do away with too much of Quran.

And employer maybe your boss but he is not an authority either, just an organizer in a business, and we have to stop thinking of this authority concept but with respect to God and hence who he gives authority to.

Barely anyone loves Hussain as the Ayah he is and Leader from God he is, or else we would not have mixed in his authority unclean water with the streams appointed from God.
4
Since our definition of Imammate and Prophethood is the same you are essentially saying there is no need of Prophethood in the first place.  Start reflecting and digesting than output or else it is an endless debate.

Disagree, I believe we need Prophethood since Prophets teach what God wants from us.  This is unlike an Imam, who teaches us about God after we have already believed in his Prophet.  I don't believe there is a reason for an infallible Imam, nor do I believe there is any evidence for in the Qur'an.  On the other hand, I do believe we need a Prophet and I believe the evidence for it is crystal-clear in the Qur'an.  Do you see the difference?

Quote
And even if both of us define them differently, the fact is all Prophets were leaders as well, and you are saying their leadership was not needed in the past.

I am definitely not saying that nor did I imply it.  And I will reiterate; ALL MUSLIMS believe that the Prophets were rules who ruled by God's command and that we need them.  The belief for an Imam AFTER the Prophet is where you and I disagree.  You need to prove that, you don't need to prove that Prophets were leaders.  ALL MUSLIMS agree with that despite your claim.

Quote
False, I don't need to prove it when according to Quran, the conveying of the proof is upon him, as is the proof, as is the showing way, as is the guidance, as is creating and choosing leaders for us.

But I have shown this multiple times in multiple threads.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, let alone how you showed it in multiple threads...

Quote
If you read the nature of the Surahs in Quran, they are snap shots in time, while apply to all times, they are snapshots of time context place. The same is true of all revelations in the past and the nature of scripture.

They are never just bringing exact same words of a revelation in the past. That is stupid to believe about God frankly and doing so is just showing how weak the position of your has become.

I never claimed that they bring the same exam words of revelation in the past.  Where did I say that?  I say not every Prophet has to bring new scriptures; he could be preaching from the same ones that came before him.  Try to understand what people are saying to you before you respond and accuse others of kufr
5
Quote
I say, there is no evidence WHATSOEVER for any kind of need for imamate, let a lone continuous need for it.

Since our definition of Imammate and Prophethood is the same you are essentially saying there is no need of Prophethood in the first place.  Start reflecting and digesting than output or else it is an endless debate.

And even if both of us define them differently, the fact is all Prophets were leaders as well, and you are saying their leadership was not needed in the past.



Quote
Therefore, since you are making this positive claim, you need to prove it, while all I need to do is deny it.

False, I don't need to prove it when according to Quran, the conveying of the proof is upon him, as is the proof, as is the showing way, as is the guidance, as is creating and choosing leaders for us.

But I have shown this multiple times in multiple threads.
Quote
Scriptures don't have to be new ones.

If you read the nature of the Surahs in Quran, they are snap shots in time, while apply to all times, they are snapshots of time context place. The same is true of all revelations in the past and the nature of scripture.

They are never just bringing exact same words of a revelation in the past. That is stupid to believe about God frankly and doing so is just showing how weak the position of your has become.




6
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Choosing a Leader based on Consultation and Consensus
« Last post by Khaled on Yesterday at 09:56:08 PM »
Yet Quran says regarding friends of Satan, "if you obey them, you are indeed associators (with God)".

The Quran actually says "And do not eat of that upon which the name of Allah has not been mentioned, for indeed, it is grave disobedience. And indeed do the devils inspire their allies [among men] to dispute with you. And if you were to obey them, indeed, you would be associators [of others with Him]."

This is a verse regarding a fiqhi issue.  If you obey leaders in disobeying Allah, then are your disbelievers.

Are you seriously using this verse to say that anyone who obeys any leader who is not in Imam in any way shape or form is a Mushrik?  This is perhaps your most laughable claim yet.  Are you saying that by driving according to the speed limit set by the American government, that I am somehow a mushrik?

Quote
The Taghut is always religious leaders and political leaders who are loved on par or more than God. Even the gods that Noah's people loved so much, at the end, were stated that they took these as gods only as a means of love between themselves, and this was all through following others as a means of love between themselves.

Do you know of any Muslims who love Yazeed more than Ali, al-Hassan or al-Hussain رضي لله عنهم?  Or let alone God?

Quote
This is what Suratal Baqara begins with leadership, that people put rivals with God and then shows it to be leaders who will be free from their followers on the day of judgement and this a theme through out Quran.

Yes, "leadership" which includes all things to you, even political issues.  If a non-Imam becomes a leader, I am supposed to disobey him according to your tafseer.

Quote
No one really valued stone idols more than the people advocating to worship them, and that is a fundamental fact of Quran that Quran calls the false leaders the Taghut, because it in a sense is the true oppressive idol, not the actual things they claim they take as gods but really their leaders from Jinn and Humans.

Now, you're going off into one of your rants.  Lets try to keep it short and to do with the post.  Prove your points and stop accusing everyone else who is not you of kufr and following the taghut.
7
Sahabah-AhlulBayt / Re: Did Ibn Abbas change his opinion on Muta?
« Last post by Farid on Yesterday at 09:52:48 PM »
Quote
Honestly, I didn't know that Fuqaha did these things based on their ijtihad. I believe its better for Faqeeh and Marja' to avoid giving his opinion on issues/questions whose answers he does not know and say ALLAHU A'lam. It would save him from incurring ALLAH'S (SWT) Anger and Wrath.

Look up the thousands of fatwas by Sistani which he answers with a simple: Halal/Haram. Unless he is correct in all of them, then according to what you have said above, he is someone that changes the law of Allah. Of course, nobody would accuse him of such, because we believe that his rulings are sincere and based on his ijtihadaat.

Sunnis dislike him for other reasons, but that is another topic for another time.

Quote
Can you enlighten me on some of the falsehoods taught by the (Shia version of) Twelve Imams?

I have collected a few for a future project. For now, open any page in Kitab al Istibsaar and you will find the Imams contradicting one another. Shia scholars call it taqiyyah. Call it whatever you want, it is making halal into haram and vice versa.
8
Khaled, the way you define Prophethood is the same way I defined Imammate.  If Imammate is proven to be continuous need of humans, than it is kufr to believe in that in the past, but not in the future.

So we can take two things from this; you define Imamate the same way mainstream Muslims define Prophethood.  And you believe that it has been proved that we need a continuous need for Imamate.  I say, there is no evidence WHATSOEVER for any kind of need for imamate, let a lone continuous need for it.  Therefore, since you are making this positive claim, you need to prove it, while all I need to do is deny it.

Quote
And there is clear verses defining scriptures revealed to be a role of all those who were sent in the past. It says in Suratal Nahl "with scriptures..." and before that stated, "We did not send before you except men who revealed to...." and there other verses explaining this.

Scriptures don't have to be new ones.

Quote
The truth is the only reason why Sunnis didn't advocate this, is because of their desires to do away with divine leadership of the family of Mohammad to be defined the same way as Prophethood defined by them.

The entire Muslim (non-Shi'i world) did this?  I'm really amazed by your imagination.  Muslims don't believe in divine leadership for them to define it like Prophethood.

Quote
And the only reason Shiites didn't see this is because of their cowardly weak stance they take with regards to Sunnis, not realizing their enemies and the most fundamental enemies of God, the Quran and Ahlulbayt (as) and so they cave in to too many Sunni views out there. And that is one reason and the other is because there are deceivers among us, that won in propaganda.

May Allah forgive you, you have really gone off the deep end
9
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Choosing a Leader based on Consultation and Consensus
« Last post by Link on Yesterday at 09:48:33 PM »
If the Taghut hands like Pharoah are actually truly politically leaders, what does it mean to disbelief in the Taghut?

Again, is he a political ruler like God is a political ruler because Moses is a  political ruler in the same way God is a political ruler.

Was Pharoah actually right when he said "Do you not see Egypt land is all under me?" or has he deceived them by falsehood? Was it really under God and hence Moses was to be obeyed?

Disbelief in taghut is to not worship taghut.  I can follow a political, social, communal leader and still follow God.  In fact, I am forced to "follow" Trump, Gerry Brown, my mayor, and my boss, and none of them are infallible leaders; heck, all of them except my boss aren't Muslim.  Doesn't mean that now I believe in taghut.

Yet Quran says regarding friends of Satan, "if you obey them, you are indeed associators (with God)".

The Taghut is always religious leaders and political leaders who are loved on par or more than God. Even the gods that Noah's people loved so much, at the end, were stated that they took these as gods only as a means of love between themselves, and this was all through following others as a means of love between themselves.

This is what Suratal Baqara begins with leadership, that people put rivals with God and then shows it to be leaders who will be free from their followers on the day of judgement and this a theme through out Quran.

No one really valued stone idols more than the people advocating to worship them, and that is a fundamental fact of Quran that Quran calls the false leaders the Taghut, because it in a sense is the true oppressive idol, not the actual things they claim they take as gods but really their leaders from Jinn and Humans.



10
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Choosing a Leader based on Consultation and Consensus
« Last post by Khaled on Yesterday at 09:43:10 PM »
If the Taghut hands like Pharoah are actually truly politically leaders, what does it mean to disbelief in the Taghut?

Again, is he a political ruler like God is a political ruler because Moses is a  political ruler in the same way God is a political ruler.

Was Pharoah actually right when he said "Do you not see Egypt land is all under me?" or has he deceived them by falsehood? Was it really under God and hence Moses was to be obeyed?

Disbelief in taghut is to not worship taghut.  I can follow a political, social, communal leader and still follow God.  In fact, I am forced to "follow" Trump, Gerry Brown, my mayor, and my boss, and none of them are infallible leaders; heck, all of them except my boss aren't Muslim.  Doesn't mean that now I believe in taghut.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10