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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by iceman on April 11, 2020, 06:33:40 PM »

Ok, give me the dates. When was Qalsoom binte Ali born. When did she get married to Umar ibn Al Khattab. What was the age of Umar when he married her. When did Umar die. How long did he serve as Caliph.

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by Soccer on April 11, 2020, 04:55:19 PM »

To give up what is for certain for what is doubtful is evil.

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by TAHIR on April 11, 2020, 04:38:51 PM »

.  Ayatollah Syed Ali Hussain Al Milani also doesn't believe that this marriage took place.

https://www.al-islam.org/node/40380
 

Al Milani is a hypocrite after acknowledgeing the hadith is authentic he turns blind eye to it
You shias always hounded excuses to shadow this burn ,some said Ali (r.a) was forced to it .
Some said a Jinni wasade in place of umm kulthum....
And some play with number games.

.  Historical evidences show that Fatima passed away 6 month after the demise of his father s.a.w and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Qalsoom, daughter of Ali was born in the year 9 Hijri. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.546 - Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39
   

You are a being idiot , where does it say she was born in 9 hijri ? In Bukhari ? Bring the hadith .
Did you forget what you said earlier

she was born 6. Hijri
..

Anything to deny this wow!!

Sunni historical evidence shows that Qalsoom (the so-called wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hassan , Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers.

Also it is worthy to note that Imam Hassan was martyred in the year 50 Hijri..But then other references show that Qalsoom was present in Karbala during the year 61 Hijri.

No refrence who cares (for her being in karballaha or her dying in 50 hijri aor Ibn Abbas and sad Ibn Waqas offering funeral )

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by TAHIR on April 11, 2020, 04:11:43 PM »

https://youtu.be/AfW8dKe9q_o

Not watching the video present the points here and we shall talk.

.   Mishkat Shareef, it is reported that when Abubakr and Umar asked the holy Prophet s.a.w for his daughter, Lady Fatima hand the Prophet s.a.w replied she is too young to marry. If this is correct then think rationally over the fact that,.Qalsoom whose mother was too young to marry these people, marries these same personalities, does this make sense?
   

Already explained it ,the hadith doesn't say too young for them , rather it simply says she was young and i have already explained sunni perspective of understanding those narrations , why do you believe in this narration though ,sunni texts don't mean anything to you but mashallah you will frame an opinion about a hadith which you don't believe in .
For you al kafi shoulder have been a sufficient evidence,but you are only concerned what nasai says ,what mishkat says and they say nothing in your aid though such a pathetic your stubbornness is .

. Secondly, Umar's daughter, Hafsa was a wife of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. This makes Hafsa the Step-mother of Fatima and the Step-Grandmother of.Qalsoom, the daughter of Ali and Fatima. Do you know what this means? It makes Umar the Step-Great Grandfather of Qalsoom. The sunnis claim the daughter of Ali married her Great Grandfather? Is such sort of marriage allowed in Islam, please prove from the Quran.
   

Rather it is you who have to prove impermssiblity burden of evidence is upon whom who makes the argument.
Ali married widow of Abu Bakr so she was step.mother of Aisha and Fatimah was daughter of Aisha (r.a) so Ali by your logic married his mother in laws mother ?

Note only blood relations and foster relations make marraige prohibited. Step sister stepol mother step grand daughter etc don't prove any relations .

. Qalsoom  was the daughter of Ali Ibne Abi Talib. Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Qalsoom and Umar took place in the year 17 Hijri when Qalsoom was 5 or 4 years of age. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri. History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171 - al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539
   

Already refuted nothing authentic here as already proven above, don't bother us with same quotes after we have refuted them once

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by TAHIR on April 11, 2020, 03:55:36 PM »

.  First is this the Qur'an you're mentioning or a clear cut Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w?
   

It is authentic hadith from infallible shia imam

.Second the marraige of Umar ibn Al Khattab to Qalsoom binte Ali, is this in any of the six authentic books?
     

Short term memory loss you suffer from already showed you sahih bukhari hadith and it doesn't always have to be in six books of hadith and however what should be relevant to you is , is the hadith in any of shia authentic books which we proved already.

don't need excuses or to make excuses. I don't believe the marriage took place. You believe it did. I'm questioning you about facts relating to the marriage and you're dodging them.

You didn't brought one point yet which i didn't answer if something is leftover bring it on.

.  Small girl? Is she mature enough to know what's happening to her? What is she getting involved in? Does she know the responsibility and commitment that a marriage holds? It's common basic sense that if you had any decency within you, you wouldn't even think of marrying someone who has absolutely no understanding about life in general let alone marriage. Someone who can't even read and write properly is capable of marriage?
   

This is authentic hadith from your imam al Masoom

.    .    if you had any decency within you, you wouldn't even think of marrying someone who has absolutely no understanding about life in general let alone marriage

Ice man you should rather say your imam has no sense of decency in saying this and your scholars have no sense that of decency in authenticating this is not from Sunni book this is from Shia book ,i had given the link also .

.   
You put it forward so you can enjoy it. No taste for me here. I follow Qur'an and Sunnah and civilised society and the law of the land. Not traditional and cultural values with an Islamic label on them. 

So imam al Masoom isn't  one among the thaqalayn any more
Is authentic ahadith from imam al masoom and act of marraige of prophet (s.a.w) with Aisha(r.a) as narrated authentically in al kafi not a sunnah
Think before speaking iceman, you are ripping apart shaiaism today

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by iceman on April 11, 2020, 10:41:07 AM »

Historical evidences show that Fatima passed away 6 month after the demise of his father s.a.w and thus her date of death was in the year 11 Hijri, and that Qalsoom, daughter of Ali was born in the year 9 Hijri. Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English Version, Tardition 5.546 - Anwarul Hussania, v3, p39

Then how is it possible for Qalsoom to be born after the death of Fatima if the Sunnis claim that she was married to Umar in the year 17 Hijri at an age of 4 or 5 years, that would put the date of birth as 12 or 13 Hijri, which is long after the death of her mother?! The Sunnis do not claim that she was 4 or 5 in the year 17 but 11 or 12.

Sunni historical evidence shows that Qalsoom (the so-called wife of Umar) died before 50 Hijri, since Imam Hassan , Abdullah ibn Umar and Sa'ad bin Abi Waqs offered the funeral prayers.

Also it is worthy to note that Imam Hassan was martyred in the year 50 Hijri..But then other references show that Qalsoom was present in Karbala during the year 61 Hijri.

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by iceman on April 11, 2020, 10:24:27 AM »

In Mishkat Shareef, it is reported that when Abubakr and Umar asked the holy Prophet s.a.w for his daughter, Lady Fatima hand the Prophet s.a.w replied she is too young to marry. If this is correct then think rationally over the fact that,.Qalsoom whose mother was too young to marry these people, marries these same personalities, does this make sense?

Secondly, Umar's daughter, Hafsa was a wife of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. This makes Hafsa the Step-mother of Fatima and the Step-Grandmother of.Qalsoom, the daughter of Ali and Fatima. Do you know what this means? It makes Umar the Step-Great Grandfather of Qalsoom. The sunnis claim the daughter of Ali married her Great Grandfather? Is such sort of marriage allowed in Islam, please prove from the Quran.

Qalsoom  was the daughter of Ali Ibne Abi Talib. Sunni Historical evidence shows that the marriage of Qalsoom and Umar took place in the year 17 Hijri when Qalsoom was 5 or 4 years of age. This would put her date of birth to 12 or 13 Hijri. History of Abul Fida, vol I p 171 - al Farooq by Shibli Numani, vol II p 539

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani

« Last post by iceman on April 11, 2020, 10:12:24 AM »

Ayatollah Syed Ali Hussain Al Milani also doesn't believe that this marriage took place.

https://www.al-islam.org/node/40380

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General Sunni-Shia / Revisiting the History of the Shi'a Marja'yah under the Baath Regime in Iraq

« Last post by Bolani Muslim on April 11, 2020, 06:20:47 AM »

Professor Abbas K. Kadhim was given access to ten million archives of the Saddam era. This talk is about the relationship between the hawza and the government during the Saddam era from the information gathered in the documents. Although not a strictly theological dialogue, it is beneficial in order to understand modern Twelver Shi'ism.

Something of note is that in his private discussions with Ayatullah Sistani, only one more Arab Shia person would be present. Yet, every time the ayatollah would speak, it would be in the context of Iraqis, not Shias. What is worrisome is that most of the clerics Kadhim has met in Iraq are sectarian in their speech. With the marja office becoming an ever-political seat, we ought to regard who the successor to Ayatullah Sistani shall be.

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: The Beginnings of Shi'i Identity: Ritual and Sacred Space in Early Islam

« Last post by Bolani Muslim on April 11, 2020, 05:54:36 AM »

Thank you for sharing, brother. Najam Haider is a bright academic who brings unique ideas in this video; he humanizes the lives of the early Muslim communities.

The theory that 'rituals (often) trump theology' is believable. I can see this anecdotally, I know of non-Hazara Afghan Shias who respect Abu Bakr and Umar [r], but are considered as Twelver Shiites since they pray sadl.