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81
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Once again I require your help
« Last post by muslim720 on April 11, 2020, 02:25:02 AM »
He (Abu Hanifa) wasn't an infallible guide then you say that how can he differ with his teacher? Are you for real. He wasn't an infallible guide but can't differ and disagree? Why can't he? I'll tell you why he did and the reason you've given 'because he wasn't infallible'.

Wait, so Imam Abu Hanifa (rah) must have disagreed with his teacher because he was not infallible?  Well, how many of the students of Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (ra) do you Shias consider "infallible"?  None!  Therefore, by your logic, they too must have differed from their teacher.

Your logic only suffocated your own claim, lol.



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Because Hanifa was picked up engineered and programmed to work against Al Sadiq. One was supported by ever means and the other opposed by every means.

The fiqh of Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (ra) was preserved through Imam Abu Hanifa (rah) so the latter was accepted because all the so-called "students" of Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (ra) presented by Ithna Ashari school were all liars with the most prolific ones cursed by none other than Imam Al-Sadiq (ra) himself.  Alhamdulilah for Imam Abu Hanifa (rah); the teachings of Imam Al-Sadiq (ra), otherwise, would have been lost, thanks to the treachery of Kufans who continuously conspired and murdered members of Ahlul Bayt (ra) one after another.



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Malik bin Nuwayrah was a companion of the Prophet s.a.w, was he not. He believed in Muhammad s.a.w being the last and final Prophet. Then Malik goes astray in believing in sajjah as a Prophet and following her. Malik being a companion could go astray and did according to you. But Hanifa couldn't be picked up, bought out and sold by the government against Al Sadiq?

I presented you an authentic Shi'i report in which Imam Al-Sadiq (ra) said that anyone who refuses to pay Zakat is an apostate and should be subjected to capital punishment.  You completely forsook the fiqh of Imam Al-Sadiq (ra), as presented by Shi'i school, back then.  So I am flabbergasted that you even had the audacity to present such an example.  As for the example itself, we have authentic proof to prove Malik bin Nuwayrah's apostasy, the most eminent "Sahabi" for the Shia.  Do you have a single authentic report that Imam Abu Hanifa (rah) was bought out?  Unfortunately for you, the only people to make deals with the wrong crowd were your own first and second "infallible" Imams (ra), lol.  That is, if we go according to your beliefs.



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Please do explain this. You call me Jahil but so far you are speaking on jahalat yourself.

This is a simple point!  Is Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah just fiqh?  I recommend you refrain from head beating this Muharram.



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One is not willing to pray behind the Imam of another school of thought. Then you have sectarian differences, the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah hate the Sunni Wahabis and the Deobandis hate the Barelvis.

Actually, the four Imams of fiqh (rah) all conceded that as an individual, they all thought they were right but it was also possible that they may be wrong and one of the other three was right (on one or more issues).  As for Wahabis, Deobandis and Barelvis, you are conflating fiqh with aqeedah.  Rest assured that such differences not only exist within Shia school but also amongst Ithna Asharis so your point is moot.



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Your Imams stood by the Ahle Baith based on words and not by faith or action

Still does not negate the fact that all four of them were imprisoned and tortured for their extreme love for Ahlul Bayt (ra).  I would rather have those who support me by words than those who backstab me and my family and then hold annual processions of grief for my murder which happened because of them and at their hands.  Thanks but no thanks!



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My Isna Ashari sect comes from Ghadeer

Alhamdulilah!  Your sect comes from a rest stop between Mecca and Madina.  At least you are honest that it has nothing to do with the Holy Prophet (saw) and Islam.



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And my 12th Imam Al Mahdi comes from the Prophet’s s.a.w hadith that a saviour will arrive to fill the world with justice and fairness as though it will be full of injustice and tyranny

He would have been here by now if you effeminate bunch could only find 313 men among you who could actually prove that their said father is their biological father and that they were not offspring of mut'ah.  Millions of you and not even 313 men among you, lol!



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Neither do we. Try to stick to one subject at a time

Sure you don't give Attributes of Allah (swt) to the Imams (ra)?  Re-consider your position or I will blast you on this one.  I just blasted two "intellectual" Shias on this point on YouTube.



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The Muslims who let Hassan down after giving allegiance to him. And now some consider him the 5th Caliph of the Muslims. And some consider Muawiya the 5th Caliph of the Muslims ridding Hassan completely. It's the Muslims mate who have been cause of their own problems.

How is it the Muslims' fault when Imam Hassan (ra) himself handed their affairs over to Muawiya?  Muslims obey the Imam, not oppose him.  When he made way for another person, Muslims accepted it as part of his wisdom.  Renegades, on the other hand, are still burning over it till this very day, lol.



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You believe in the made up story. That's exactly why stories like that were made up. Just as a counter argument to challenge the truth and facts and to show that it was all sugar and honey

In the other discussion topic, brothers have shown you authentic evidence from Shi'i sources and scholars that Umar (ra) married the daughter of Imam Ali (ra).  It is not my problem that you cannot see the sun because your eyes are shut; just don't say that it (the sun) does not exist!
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by iceman on April 11, 2020, 02:07:29 AM »
And here is another hadith
  منها : صحيحة الحلبي عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) ، قال : «إذا تزوّج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة ، فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين»
Among them is :
Authentic hadith from halbi
Abi Abdillah (a.s) said
if a man marries a saghirah (small girl) , so don't enter upon her (don't have intercourse with her) untill she is 9
Two points here
1. Marrige is permitted with girls of any age according to this
2. Intercourse just above 9.
Enjoy iceman
So what more excuses are you going to pull out??

http://www.al-khoei.us/books/index.php?id=4703

First is this the Qur'an you're mentioning or a clear cut Sunnah of the Prophet s.a.w? Second the marraige of Umar ibn Al Khattab to Qalsoom binte Ali, is this in any of the six authentic books?

I don't need excuses or to make excuses. I don't believe the marriage took place. You believe it did. I'm questioning you about facts relating to the marriage and you're dodging them.

"if a man marries a saghirah (small girl) , so don't enter upon her (don't have intercourse with her) untill she is 9"

Small girl? Is she mature enough to know what's happening to her? What is she getting involved in? Does she know the responsibility and commitment that a marriage holds? It's common basic sense that if you had any decency within you, you wouldn't even think of marrying someone who has absolutely no understanding about life in general let alone marriage. Someone who can't even read and write properly is capable of marriage?

"1. Marrige is permitted with girls of any age according to this
2. Intercourse just above 9.
Enjoy iceman"

You put it forward so you can enjoy it. No taste for me here. I follow Qur'an and Sunnah and civilised society and the law of the land. Not traditional and cultural values with an Islamic label on them.
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 07:52:43 PM »
And here is another hadith
  منها : صحيحة الحلبي عن أبي عبدالله (عليه السلام) ، قال : «إذا تزوّج الرجل الجارية وهي صغيرة ، فلا يدخل بها حتى يأتي لها تسع سنين»
Among them is :
Authentic hadith from halbi
Abi Abdillah (a.s) said
if a man marries a saghirah (small girl) , so don't enter upon her (don't have intercourse with her) untill she is 9
Two points here
1. Marrige is permitted with girls of any age according to this
2. Intercourse just above 9.
Enjoy iceman
So what more excuses are you going to pull out??

http://www.al-khoei.us/books/index.php?id=4703
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 07:28:11 PM »
And this bidhnillaha will end all excuses of ice man
He said
 
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.This is something we strongly disagree with as well. The Prophet s.a.w did not marry Aisha at that young age. These are fabricated stories that have been created and brought about by certain individuals and characters just to deem it permissible to marry young and under age girls.
     
Nadir Zaveri puts beautifully on his website
//إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ص دَخَلَ بِعَائِشَةَ وَ هِيَ بِنْتُ عَشْرِ سِنِينَ وَ لَيْسَ يُدْخَلُ بِالْجَارِيَةِ حَتَّى تَكُونَ امْرَأَةً
“The Prophet صلى الله عليه وآله entered upon (had sexual intercourse with) `Aa’ishah when she was 10 years old, and that one doesn’t enter (upon) a jaariyah (girl) until she became a woman.”
Source:
1.       Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol.7, pg. 388, hadeeth # 1
2.       Al-Toosi, Tahdheeb Al-aHkaam, vol. 6, ch. 91, pg. 251, hadeeth # 49
3.       Al-`Aamilee, Wasaa’il Al-Shee`ah, vol. 1, ch. 4, pg. 44, hadeeth # 75
Grading:
1.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH
è  Mir’aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 24, pg. 235
2.       Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH Mawqoof (Authentic Halted)
è Milaadh Al-Akhyaa//

More comming soon
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 05:14:09 PM »
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Do you accept anything and everything that any of your scholars say or write or have said or written? What principle applies to you?

If i cant find a difference of opinion among scholars ,then yes everything they say is binding.and i am asking you the same question do some of your scholars make a sharp demarcation on age limit for marraige or even puberty for that matter?

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.
I have never said that I'm the only upholder  of the truth. I'm just saying don't bring in bits and pieces or view and opinion of a handful of people and try to prove something. This ain't saqifa. Bring in the view and opinion of the majority.

When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:
   
You didn't bring a unity (one opinion)  and asking me to bring majority
And why is that even relevant to you oh is it because their is one hadith on nasai which you don't believe in to start with?

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. When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:
 
1. Bring that Hadith
2. How is it relevant to you if it is a sunni hadith
3. I won't bother addressing your nonsensical deductions till then

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.  Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth"

It's a disputed matter. It didn't happen unless you can prove it by answering some important questions and by addressing some important points. The vast majority of the Shia community and Scholars do not believe it took place.   
Vast majority of shias don't follow their imams
Authentic statements you nasbees

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.   your own books give a version of how this marriage took place which if you read is an embarrassment to Ali and an absolute insult to Umar's character.
 
Already refuted and you still bringing it up is a sign of your desperation.


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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 04:59:55 PM »
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.
"But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator"

My argument is based on a disputed matter and is asking questions related to and     
Untill only few years before shias disputed over the preservation of Quran also, also imam al mehdi of shia is disputed between Shia and Sunni
Care to answer the following
 Who was nursing his mother when he was born
You shias dispute us on everything , why does that count
If you have authentic hadith please don't  come back saying statement of masoomeen are nothing

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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 04:54:28 PM »
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. Imam e Masoom wasn't the father in law of Umar. The Prophet s.a.w did consider himself to be the father in law of Umar. So how would Nafs e Rassool be. (Anna wa aliyun min noor e wahid).

The fact of the matter is that this story like many others were created just as a counter argument to deny that there was any beef or unrest between the Ahle Baith and the Shaykhain.

And I say that with all due respect towards the Shaykhain and all the sahaba (raa).
   
Turn blinkers on ,ignore authentic hadith of masoomeen ,the two heavy things that you boast often about today sometimes you take shelter in nasai hadith sometimes you play number games
And sometimes you .   Examine things well and turn things upside down
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 04:50:21 PM »
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. Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted"

Are you saying the Shaykhain weren't interested? Forget about me don't you believe in the hadith? Have you got doubts about it? It's widely accepted, isn't it? Or is their a dispute amongst the Ahle Sunnah over it?     
who said shaykhayn whernt intrested i have no doubt over but i am asking you why will you believe in it
As far ase believing in it i have already explained the Sunni perspective over it
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General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 04:46:56 PM »
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.
Ok, I'll look at the actual hadith. If you can put it forward then that will be good. Any idea about roughly what was the age of Fatima when Umar asked for her hand in marriage and the Prophet s.a.w replied "she is too young"?

If she didn't hit puberty at the time then Umar most definitely wouldn't be asking. And if you agree that her age was of puberty and the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young" then we'll have to accept that puberty ain't enough. Other factors also need to be looked at and brought into account when we speak about marriage.

Marriage is a serious business based on responsibility and commitment. A lot falls into it. And a lot needs to be considered. It's not just about puberty and sexual intercourse.
   
Here is the hadith from Sunan nasai

خطب أبو بكرٍ وعمرُ رضِيَ اللهُ عنهما فاطمةَ ، فقال رسولُ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليهِ وسلَّمَ : إنها صغيرةٌ ، فخطبها عليٌّ فزوَّجها منه
Abu Bakr and Umar approached for marriage and prophet (s.a.w) said she is young , then Ali (r.a) came and he married her off to him

Nothing of age known start deducing your wilderness from the hadith you don't believe in


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