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91
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 04:39:45 PM »
Quote
1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule"

That's fine. I have no objection or beef with your perspective. But it's not compulsory on me to even accept any bit or piece of any Shia Scholar or book let alone having your perspective shoved down my throat.
     
Do you know the idiot i am feeling about you , you don't believe in the hadith since it is in the Sunni hadith nonetheless you will make all your case by burrying shia hadith and framing an opinion over this hadith which you don't believe in
Mashallah mr . Technical debator   
92
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 04:23:29 PM »
Do you accept anything and everything that any of your scholars say or write or have said or written? What principle applies to you?

I haven't thrown all Shia scholars out of the bus. Vast majority of the Shia community and scholars do not believe in the tale you have put forward. What part of it you don't understand or don't want to understand?

I have never said that I'm the only upholder  of the truth. I'm just saying don't bring in bits and pieces or view and opinion of a handful of people and try to prove something. This ain't saqifa. Bring in the view and opinion of the majority.

When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:

“This matter of the marriage of Fatima, my daughter, is in the hands of Allah Himself, and He alone will select a spouse for her”.

Is this true. This is what I'm coming across.

Parents can give away their children since they are the ones closest to them. But with the approval and consent of the child. A lot of marriages have taken place and do even now take place based on tradition and culture of where you come from. Parents decide or have already decided. And pressure is put on some children if they think otherwise or object.

A lot of marriages take place based on emotional blackmail by the parents. They assume they know better who their child should spend the rest of their life with. Many parents have already decided that it's going to be their own nephew or niece. Just to strengthen and further their (parents) relationship with their (parents) siblings.

"Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth"

It's a disputed matter. It didn't happen unless you can prove it by answering some important questions and by addressing some important points. The vast majority of the Shia community and Scholars do not believe it took place. And your own books give a version of how this marriage took place which if you read is an embarrassment to Ali and an absolute insult to Umar's character.


Ice man please bring some shia scholars before you make this age dramma or dig up the age of imm kulthum even before you make this argument
93
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by iceman on April 10, 2020, 04:16:34 PM »
Ist of all ice man , you will today like to throw all shia schoarship out of bus ,don't tell me you are the only upholder of truth in entire shiasm and only you understood the Quran and sunnah . If you think parents can't give away their children in marraige according to shia madhab , their must be some scholars who support your opinion isn't it ??

Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth bring some scholars who say
1. Puberty is the necessary criteria for marraige in shia madhab
2. A father can't give away his daughter for marraige
The opposite of it i have already proven you ask for the sources khomanis quote is hanging above (already given a scan)
Khoei and tusi accompanying this post as attachments

Do you accept anything and everything that any of your scholars say or write or have said or written? What principle applies to you?

I haven't thrown all Shia scholars out of the bus. Vast majority of the Shia community and scholars do not believe in the tale you have put forward. What part of it you don't understand or don't want to understand?

I have never said that I'm the only upholder  of the truth. I'm just saying don't bring in bits and pieces or view and opinion of a handful of people and try to prove something. This ain't saqifa. Bring in the view and opinion of the majority.

When Fatima grew up, two old companions first one and then the other asked her father for her hand in marriage. But he turned away from them and said:

“This matter of the marriage of Fatima, my daughter, is in the hands of Allah Himself, and He alone will select a spouse for her”.

Is this true. This is what I'm coming across.

Parents can give away their children since they are the ones closest to them. But with the approval and consent of the child. A lot of marriages have taken place and do even now take place based on tradition and culture of where you come from. Parents decide or have already decided. And pressure is put on some children if they think otherwise or object.

A lot of marriages take place based on emotional blackmail by the parents. They assume they know better who their child should spend the rest of their life with. Many parents have already decided that it's going to be their own nephew or niece. Just to strengthen and further their (parents) relationship with their (parents) siblings.

"Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth"

It's a disputed matter. It didn't happen unless you can prove it by answering some important questions and by addressing some important points. The vast majority of the Shia community and Scholars do not believe it took place. And your own books give a version of how this marriage took place which if you read is an embarrassment to Ali and an absolute insult to Umar's character.
94
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 04:01:44 PM »
We ahl u sunnah have a consensus that father can marry his daughter of he finds convinient
https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/178318
That's only assuming umm kulthum had not reached puberty yet which you have no evidence for .
I am attaching tusis quote
Where he says ,you can marry a women before she is a baligha without his father's permission , provided you don't plan intercourse if you plan that also then ask father's permission
95
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by TAHIR on April 10, 2020, 03:35:52 PM »
Quote
. Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige  ages in shia madhab before we move further"

I follow the Qur'an and what goes with it. Books written by Shias or Sunnis can be looked at and examined. It's got nothing to do with the age factor. It's not just puberty that when a girl or a boy hits puberty then they can get married regardless of anything else been looked at and brought into account. Mental maturity and having basic sense and logic and understating about right and wrong and how to protect yourself and your rights along with knowing what is in your best interest and what is beneficial for you and what isn't also counts.

I do not believe that fathers or parents can marry off their daughters to whom ever they please as soon as they reach puberty without their consent and without them having the necessary knowledge and information about their rights and who they're getting themselves involved with and what they're getting themselves into.
   
Ist of all ice man , you will today like to throw all shia schoarship out of bus ,don't tell me you are the only upholder of truth in entire shiasm and only you understood the Quran and sunnah . If you think parents can't give away their children in marraige according to shia madhab , their must be some scholars who support your opinion isn't it ??

Who are you and who am i , your whole rant just to prevent this marraige that already occured is of no worth bring some scholars who say
1. Puberty is the necessary criteria for marraige in shia madhab
2. A father can't give away his daughter for marraige
The opposite of it i have already proven you ask for the sources khomanis quote is hanging above (already given a scan)
Khoei and tusi accompanying this post as attachments
96
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by iceman on April 10, 2020, 02:48:41 PM »
Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige  ages in shia madhab before we move further
Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature if she is above 9 no problem.
So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe

With that out of way now we can talk about the narration
There are two ways looking at it
1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule .
2. Shia perspective:
They will reject bukhari hadith as fabrication
And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young fornand will still accuse sunnis of clutching to bits and pieces.
Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted ?
Is that present in your books ??
And your kind of interpretation of that was true ,why does your fiqh say otherwise as i have demonstrated above .
the maths you failed understanding the point Fatimah (r.a) if e.g dhe was 6 at the time of proposal , and her daughter was 12 at the time umar proposed (assuming) , so the argument that she was young and so must be her daughter is a nonsense.It isn't on me ,in which book of logic it is written that to affirm an event occurred ,one requires to know the age of all the characters taking part in the event?
May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?
We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry , we don't know what was his age then , does it mean they didn't marry
My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?
But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator
The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar  whom they have been projecting his great enemy

"Ist of all lete give you some context of permissibl marraige  ages in shia madhab before we move further"

I follow the Qur'an and what goes with it. Books written by Shias or Sunnis can be looked at and examined. It's got nothing to do with the age factor. It's not just puberty that when a girl or a boy hits puberty then they can get married regardless of anything else been looked at and brought into account. Mental maturity and having basic sense and logic and understating about right and wrong and how to protect yourself and your rights along with knowing what is in your best interest and what is beneficial for you and what isn't also counts.

I do not believe that fathers or parents can marry off their daughters to whom ever they please as soon as they reach puberty without their consent and without them having the necessary knowledge and information about their rights and who they're getting themselves involved with and what they're getting themselves into.

"With that out of way now we can talk"

There is nothing in the way. So there's no need to get anything out of the way.

"Abu Jaffar al tusi says :
Doing mutah isnt permissible without walis permission unless the girl is mature if she is above 9 no problem.
So below 9 you require walis permission and above 9 all ok
2. Wahid Khorasani says
Ok doing mutah ,with a saghirah except for intercourse
3.Khomayni says ok marrying a suckling babe"

First of all lets not take anything out of context. Put forward the actual material and lets have a look at it. Second is it compulsory on me as a Shia to accept and believe in every single thing a Shia Scholar has to say? It doesn't matter who said and what they said and why they said it I have to accept and believe it?

"1. Sunni perspective
We believe in this NARRATION and so we also believe in al Bukhari and we can contextualise both and we say withholding young girls from marraige isn't a general rule"

That's fine. I have no objection or beef with your perspective. But it's not compulsory on me to even accept any bit or piece of any Shia Scholar or book let alone having your perspective shoved down my throat.

"And will only accept one hadith where prophet (s.a.w) said she is young"

Ok, I'll look at the actual hadith. If you can put it forward then that will be good. Any idea about roughly what was the age of Fatima when Umar asked for her hand in marriage and the Prophet s.a.w replied "she is too young"?

If she didn't hit puberty at the time then Umar most definitely wouldn't be asking. And if you agree that her age was of puberty and the Prophet s.a.w replied by saying "she is too young" then we'll have to accept that puberty ain't enough. Other factors also need to be looked at and brought into account when we speak about marriage.

Marriage is a serious business based on responsibility and commitment. A lot falls into it. And a lot needs to be considered. It's not just about puberty and sexual intercourse.

"Why do you believe in the hadith where proposal of ar and Abu Bakr (r.a) wasn't accepted"

Are you saying the Shaykhain weren't interested? Forget about me don't you believe in the hadith? Have you got doubts about it? It's widely accepted, isn't it? Or is their a dispute amongst the Ahle Sunnah over it?

"May be as brother Hani said somewhere else ,next you will ask which food was served in the waleemah?"

If Hani said that then that is being silly or getting silly based on it being a cheap response in a desperate attempt to keep up in an argument. I probably would expect that from these types of Sunnis.

"We don't know who read khutbah of Abdur Rehman Ibn awfs nikah ,does it mean he didn't marry"

No it doesn't mean that. This is exactly your problem that you want to start bringing in different meanings. My response is, is there a dispute over Abdur Rehman Ibn Awf's Nikah? Was there a known dispute over if Abdur Rehman Ibn Awf marrying so and so? If there was then there would be absolutely no harm in asking important questions relating to the argument. My response here is an example of technical ability when it comes to discussions.

"My question to you ,do you know the age of your great grandfather at the time he married?"

My response, is it necessary for me to know or for you to ask? Is there a dispute amongst the Ummah of my great grandfather's marriage? That's another example of technical ability in discussions and debates. If there's a dispute then let me know where and by whom then I'll most definitely get you the dates. I'm well equipped. I've worked on myself over the years. Don't want to blow my own trumpet. I'm just a normal person.

"The reason it is disputed between shias is because they can't submit to the fact that imam al Masoom (a.s) was father in law of Umar  whom they have been projecting his great enemy"

Imam e Masoom wasn't the father in law of Umar. The Prophet s.a.w did consider himself to be the father in law of Umar. So how would Nafs e Rassool be. (Anna wa aliyun min noor e wahid).

The fact of the matter is that this story like many others were created just as a counter argument to deny that there was any beef or unrest between the Ahle Baith and the Shaykhain.

And I say that with all due respect towards the Shaykhain and all the sahaba (raa).

"But your argument is entirely based on age comparison of Fatimah and umm kulthum so you require proving your stuff mr technical debator"

My argument is based on a disputed matter and is asking questions related to and concerning the matter.
97
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Once again I require your help
« Last post by iceman on April 10, 2020, 01:42:35 PM »
Once again, you have proven your deep ignorance.  Imam Abu Hanifa (rah) was an imam of fiqh, not our "Infallible Guide".  The fiqh of Sunni school isn't all of Sunni school, ya jaahil!  And while he was a student of Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (ra), this bit totally destroys all the claims you lay to the Imam (ra) as your religious guide.  How can the student of Imam Al-Sadiq (ra) have a completely different set of jurisprudence than the Ithna Asharis?  Oh, so he went off and opposed the Imam (ra)?  Well, there are four schools of jurisprudence and despite their differences, all four are in harmony.  So if anything, you have to prove how the four Imams of Sunni Fiqh (rah) conspire against Imam As-Sadiq (ra) when almost all of them were tortured for being Shia (due to their extreme love for Ahlul Bayt)!

This is the difference between real Muslims, including Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (ra), and the fringe groups (who claim to have Imam Al-Sadiq on their side): persecution or not, we stood by our beliefs.  Our Imams (ra) accepted torture to stand by Ahlul Bayt (ra).  According to you, your Imams (ra) - allegedly - lied and manipulated facts just to get by.



Of course you had to be raised on such misrepresentation of facts because your Ithna Ashari creed was a by-product of various other Shi'i sects failing and going extinct.



At least we do not give them Allah's (swt) Attributes.  Oh, and you lied!  Try harder next time.



And Imam Ali (ra) never opposed them, gave his daughter in marriage to one of them, advised all of them and never overturned a single verdict by any one of them.



And who made Muawiya's rule possible?  That is my point!

"so he went off and opposed the Imam (ra)?  Well, there are four schools of jurisprudence and despite their differences, all four are in harmony"

Harmony? History and facts tell us a different story. One is not willing to pray behind the Imam of another school of thought. Then you have sectarian differences, the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah hate the Sunni Wahabis and the Deobandis hate the Barelvis.

"Our Imams (ra) accepted torture to stand by Ahlul Bayt (ra).  According to you, your Imams (ra) - allegedly - lied and manipulated facts just to get by.

Your Imams stood by the Ahle Baith based on words and not by faith or action. And our Imams stood by and believed in the actual Islam and not the political Islam brought about by the Shaykhain in the form of Caliphate Islam. A Sunni scholar said well about Karbala; "on one side you have political Islam Yazeed Ibne Muawiya. And the other side you have the original Islam Hussain Ibne Ali". We Shias believe in the original Islam and that is what we follow. You believe in the political Islam and that is what you follow.

"Of course you had to be raised on such misrepresentation of facts because your Ithna Ashari creed was a by-product of various other Shi'i sects failing and going extinct"

My Isna Ashari sect comes from Ghadeer and the Prophet's s.a.w hadith that there will be 12 caliphs/leaders/Imams after me. And my 12th Imam Al Mahdi comes from the Prophet’s s.a.w hadith that a saviour will arrive to fill the world with justice and fairness as though it will be full of injustice and tyranny. He's name will be Muhammad just like mine. That's exactly where my sect and faith originates from.

"At least we do not give them Allah's (swt) Attributes"

Neither do we. Try to stick to one subject at a time.

"And who made Muawiya's rule possible?  That is my point!"

The Muslims who let Hassan down after giving allegiance to him. And now some consider him the 5th Caliph of the Muslims. And some consider Muawiya the 5th Caliph of the Muslims ridding Hassan completely. It's the Muslims mate who have been cause of their own problems.

Those who stood by the Prophet s.a.w and demanded that he should be given the pen and paper and we should accept what he had to write and offer were actually the true and loyal companions. And those who stood by the Imams were the actual Shias like Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr who you never bother to mention forget about praising and honouring him.

"And Imam Ali (ra) never opposed them, gave his daughter in marriage to one of them, advised all of them and never overturned a single verdict by any one of them"

You believe in the made up story. That's exactly why stories like that were made up. Just as a counter argument to challenge the truth and facts and to show that it was all sugar and honey.
98
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Once again I require your help
« Last post by iceman on April 10, 2020, 11:20:15 AM »
Once again, you have proven your deep ignorance.  Imam Abu Hanifa (rah) was an imam of fiqh, not our "Infallible Guide".  The fiqh of Sunni school isn't all of Sunni school, ya jaahil!  And while he was a student of Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (ra), this bit totally destroys all the claims you lay to the Imam (ra) as your religious guide.  How can the student of Imam Al-Sadiq (ra) have a completely different set of jurisprudence than the Ithna Asharis?  Oh, so he went off and opposed the Imam (ra)?  Well, there are four schools of jurisprudence and despite their differences, all four are in harmony.  So if anything, you have to prove how the four Imams of Sunni Fiqh (rah) conspire against Imam As-Sadiq (ra) when almost all of them were tortured for being Shia (due to their extreme love for Ahlul Bayt)!

This is the difference between real Muslims, including Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (ra), and the fringe groups (who claim to have Imam Al-Sadiq on their side): persecution or not, we stood by our beliefs.  Our Imams (ra) accepted torture to stand by Ahlul Bayt (ra).  According to you, your Imams (ra) - allegedly - lied and manipulated facts just to get by.



Of course you had to be raised on such misrepresentation of facts because your Ithna Ashari creed was a by-product of various other Shi'i sects failing and going extinct.



At least we do not give them Allah's (swt) Attributes.  Oh, and you lied!  Try harder next time.



And Imam Ali (ra) never opposed them, gave his daughter in marriage to one of them, advised all of them and never overturned a single verdict by any one of them.



And who made Muawiya's rule possible?  That is my point!

"Imam Abu Hanifa (rah) was an imam of fiqh, not our "Infallible Guide".

Make sure you stick to this because I'm going to use this. Then you further say;

"How can the student of Imam Al-Sadiq (ra) have a completely different set of jurisprudence than the Ithna Asharis?"

He (Abu Hanifa) wasn't an infallible guide then you say that how can he differ with his teacher? Are you for real. He wasn't an infallible guide but can't differ and disagree? Why can't he? I'll tell you why he did and the reason you've given 'because he wasn't infallible'.

It doesn't matter which Shia Imam it was, from Ali all the way to Askari, they were all opposed by the government of the time. And those who opposed or differed with the Imams were uplifted by the government through backing and support.

Abu Hanifa was picked up by the government of the time and was supported against Al Sadiq. Why is there more supporters and followers of Fiqah e Hanafia rather than Fiqah e Jafferia? Because Hanifa was picked up engineered and programmed to work against Al Sadiq. One was supported by ever means and the other opposed by every means.

Malik bin Nuwayrah was a companion of the Prophet s.a.w, was he not. He believed in Muhammad s.a.w being the last and final Prophet. Then Malik goes astray in believing in sajjah as a Prophet and following her. Malik being a companion could go astray and did according to you. But Hanifa couldn't be picked up, bought out and sold by the government against Al Sadiq? I don't see you saying and talking here that despite companions being Mehfooz according to your Sunni faith, how can Malik believe in and follow another prophet after Muhammad s.a.w while being a companion of Muhammad s.a.w and believing in him as the last and final Messenger.

"The fiqh of Sunni school isn't all of Sunni school, ya jaahil"

Please do explain this. You call me Jahil but so far you are speaking on jahalat yourself.
99
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Once again I require your help
« Last post by muslim720 on April 10, 2020, 04:01:51 AM »
The Sunnis came around during the time and generation of our 6th Imam Jaffar Al Sadiq. Your Imam Abu Hanafi was a student of our 6th Imam who then went off and apposed Jaffar to create his own school of thought backed by the government against Al Sadiq. This is where the first Sunnis emerged, the followers of Abu Hanifa.

Once again, you have proven your deep ignorance.  Imam Abu Hanifa (rah) was an imam of fiqh, not our "Infallible Guide".  The fiqh of Sunni school isn't all of Sunni school, ya jaahil!  And while he was a student of Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (ra), this bit totally destroys all the claims you lay to the Imam (ra) as your religious guide.  How can the student of Imam Al-Sadiq (ra) have a completely different set of jurisprudence than the Ithna Asharis?  Oh, so he went off and opposed the Imam (ra)?  Well, there are four schools of jurisprudence and despite their differences, all four are in harmony.  So if anything, you have to prove how the four Imams of Sunni Fiqh (rah) conspire against Imam As-Sadiq (ra) when almost all of them were tortured for being Shia (due to their extreme love for Ahlul Bayt)!

This is the difference between real Muslims, including Imam Jafar Al-Sadiq (ra), and the fringe groups (who claim to have Imam Al-Sadiq on their side): persecution or not, we stood by our beliefs.  Our Imams (ra) accepted torture to stand by Ahlul Bayt (ra).  According to you, your Imams (ra) - allegedly - lied and manipulated facts just to get by.



Quote
Later on Sunnis fell into disarray and developed differences where Imam Malik separated and started his own school of thought. The difference furthered to Shafi and Hambali schools of thought. You didn't even exist and were no where to be seen when we were around.

Of course you had to be raised on such misrepresentation of facts because your Ithna Ashari creed was a by-product of various other Shi'i sects failing and going extinct.



Quote
Lol. Lol again. You are so far stuck up in personality worship that a few companions and that's just a handful never got anything wrong what so ever. You have turned them into Holy saints.

At least we do not give them Allah's (swt) Attributes.  Oh, and you lied!  Try harder next time.



Quote
They abandoned the Prophet s.a.w and left him stranded in battle and ran to save their lives. They shunned the Prophet s.a.w when he asked for pen and paper and weren't interested in what he had to offer. This went on while the Prophet s.a.w was alive. Never mind about what they got up to after the Prophet's s.a.w death.

And Imam Ali (ra) never opposed them, gave his daughter in marriage to one of them, advised all of them and never overturned a single verdict by any one of them.



Quote
Imam Hassan did not abdicate what was Divinely Ordained for him.
The tyrant like Muawiya, your words, only ruled over Muslims due to the failure of the Muslims. Just like Yazeed ruled over the Muslims.

And who made Muawiya's rule possible?  That is my point!
100
General Sunni-Shia / Re: Umar married Umm Kulthoom bint Ali - ayotollah Sistani
« Last post by muslim720 on April 10, 2020, 03:40:14 AM »
I'm not just a debater but a technical debater.

Yes, every Shi'i is a "technical" debater, motivated by their endless fables of one Imam (ra) or his representative refuting tens of Sunnis at once.  When these "technical" debaters present themselves on a public platform, outside their echo chambers, they are more "vesical" than "technical" and get pissed on.



Quote
I turn things upside down and really examine them well.

If only you had some brain cells to have prevented you from making such an ignorant comment which you thought was a compliment.  This is like saying, "I approach milk as being black and really examine it from there on".
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