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'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad

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Khaled

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 10:55:59 PM »
How the hell do you expect me to put up with all of you and then you bringing in other issues and matters which are completely irrelevant to the thread and what is being discussed. Like I said, one at a time and one step at a time. Now if you're interested and want some answers then who's first? Only one step forward and the rest keep out until we're done. Then the next one can step forward.

Like I've told you time and time again, your refusal to answer any point brought up to you and your insistence on bringing issues unrelated to the topic is the reason why all these pile up on you.  In the Mut'ah thread, you were unable to answer anything for over 100 posts and all you could provide was a half quote of a fatwa stating Mut'ah was mustahabb.  In the thread about Iran, you continuously misunderstood everyone's positions and kept bringing the issue back to Saudi.  When it was exposed to you that most people here think of Saudi and Iran as equally evil, or even that Saudi might be worse, you started saying weird things and putting smilies faces.  Here, you tell us that Shi'as saved Islam, when we ask you to bring any examples, you turn the topic into Saqifa.  Let me tell you, I am VERY proud of the period of 30 years after the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's death, and I think the first 2-300 years of Islamic history are very good in comparison to anything that came before it.  I am very proud of the Islamic Golden Age, I am very proud of Salah al-Din and the Muslims during the Crusades, and I am very proud of a lot of the Ottoman's accomplishments.  I am very proud of a lot of Islamic history.  Now, please provide us with one thing the Shi'as did to save Islam.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 10:59:58 PM by Khaled »
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2018, 11:10:06 PM »
Like I've told you time and time again, your refusal to answer any point brought up to you and your insistence on bringing issues unrelated to the topic is the reason why all these pile up on you.  In the Mut'ah thread, you were unable to answer anything for over 100 posts and all you could provide was a half quote of a fatwa stating Mut'ah was mustahabb.  In the thread about Iran, you continuously misunderstood everyone's positions and kept bringing the issue back to Saudi.  When it was exposed to you that most people here think of Saudi and Iran as equally evil, or even that Saudi might be worse, you started saying weird things and putting smilies faces.  Here, you tell us that Shi'as saved Islam, when we ask you to bring any examples, you turn the topic into Saqifa.  Let me tell you, I am VERY proud of the period of 30 years after the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's death, and I think the first 2-300 years of Islamic history are very good in comparison to anything that came before it.  I am very proud of the Islamic Golden Age, I am very proud of Salah al-Din and the Muslims during the Crusades, and I am very proud of a lot of the Ottoman's accomplishments.  I am very proud of a lot of Islamic history.  Now, please provide us with one thing the Shi'as did to save Islam.

Let me put you straight again, I have answered all questions and addressed all points in extensive detail and in depth. Now if they don't suit you or serve your purpose then I'm afraid there's not much I can do about that.

We're dealing with people who have been fed nonsense and told rubbish about the other sect and community. And because of this people have developed a mindset and think, say and act accordingly. This is the reason why we're running in circles and not because of me.

The points you have made in this post are absolutely unjust and extremely unfair. But what can I expect from an Anti Shia. This is what I'm up against and dealing with. You bring in multiple issues and matters rather than one thing and then sticking to it and that is exactly what you've done in this latest post of yours.

Khaled

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2018, 11:21:05 PM »
Let me put you straight again, I have answered all questions and addressed all points in extensive detail and in depth.

The proof is in the pudding http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/is-mutah-really-halal-for-shia/msg21293/

Do you sincerely believe that you answered ANYTHING brought up to you in this thread?  A single point?

Quote
We're dealing with people who have been fed nonsense and told rubbish about the other sect and community. And because of this people have developed a mindset and think, say and act accordingly. This is the reason why we're running in circles and not because of me.

Disagree, no one fed me anything, I did my own research.  IMO, it is YOU that has been fed nonsense against every Muslim who does not belong in your sect.  That's why you have such a negative image of 1400 years of Islam; something only the staunchest Islamphobe would agree with you upon.

Quote
The points you have made in this post are absolutely unjust and extremely unfair. But what can I expect from an Anti Shia. This is what I'm up against and dealing with. You bring in multiple issues and matters rather than one thing and then sticking to it and that is exactly what you've done in this latest post of yours.

I'm not anti-Shia, I am a critic of Twelverism true, but that doesn't make me anti-Shia.  I consider you my brother in Islam just like any other 12er, and my view of Zaidis is actually neutral leaning on positive.  Your views of any Muslim who is not in your sect though leaves a lot to be desired.
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2018, 12:01:14 AM »
The proof is in the pudding http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/is-mutah-really-halal-for-shia/msg21293/

Do you sincerely believe that you answered ANYTHING brought up to you in this thread?  A single point?

Disagree, no one fed me anything, I did my own research.  IMO, it is YOU that has been fed nonsense against every Muslim who does not belong in your sect.  That's why you have such a negative image of 1400 years of Islam; something only the staunchest Islamphobe would agree with you upon.

I'm not anti-Shia, I am a critic of Twelverism true, but that doesn't make me anti-Shia.  I consider you my brother in Islam just like any other 12er, and my view of Zaidis is actually neutral leaning on positive.  Your views of any Muslim who is not in your sect though leaves a lot to be desired.

Anyone who doesn't believe or share what I do is just as a Muslim as I am. I do not pick on or mock and take the mickey out of any sect or school of thought. I do not consider other Muslims as ill faithed or see or call them as Kafir. I am not from a group who go on a killing spree just because others believe in and are different from me. Neither do I believe in using violence and or threatening behaviour to have my demands met or just to get my way or at least make others unsuccessful.

Now lets cut out the nonsense and tell me what exactly I haven't answered?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 12:03:57 AM by iceman »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 12:09:35 AM »
Playing the dumb card & acting like your memory got wiped out again. Boring.

Khaled

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2018, 12:46:29 AM »
Anyone who doesn't believe or share what I do is just as a Muslim as I am. I do not pick on or mock and take the mickey out of any sect or school of thought. I do not consider other Muslims as ill faithed or see or call them as Kafir. I am not from a group who go on a killing spree just because others believe in and are different from me. Neither do I believe in using violence and or threatening behaviour to have my demands met or just to get my way or at least make others unsuccessful.

Neither am I, so I'm not sure why you brought this up.  However, you are the type of person who views all of Islamic history in a negative light, and you are the type of person that defends Iran and Bashar's actions in Syria.  I am against ALL intra-Muslim oppression; including the ones done by the Najdi State of Saudi and Safawi state of Iran and Bashar's state in Syria.

Quote
Now lets cut out the nonsense and tell me what exactly I haven't answered?

Here for the fifth or sixth time:

Quote
1) What is the ruling for Mut'ah in the Ja'fari madhhab? *answered* It is mustahabb according to Ayatollah Khamini.
2) If it is at least mustahabb, why is it so taboo in Ja'fari communities?
3) Is there any fatwas or ahadeeth which mention that Mut'ah is for certain circumstances?  As you know, the fatwas we read and the ahadeeth that are quoted always seem to imply that the virtue of the act is unrestricted.
4) Do you believe that Bukhari, Muslim and other early hadeeth scholars mentioned the narrations that "Omar banned Mut'ah" because they believe Omar DID ban Mut'ah, or did they have other intentions?
5) Why did you think you were making a point when you said that "Mut'ah was allowed during the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's time"?  This one is real confusing to me because ALL things that were haraam were allowed until the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم banned it.
6) New issue:  I was reading this thread on shiachat http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235054737-can-i-have-mutah-with-different-men/ Why do you suppose everyone was discouraging her from doing Mut'ah with multiple men and some even accused her of being Salafi/Wahhabi?  How does this reconcile with the ahadeeth we read which say that the more you do Mut'ah, the more reward you will get (as is mentioned in the latest post by Muslim720)?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

iceman

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2018, 02:24:13 AM »
Playing the dumb card & acting like your memory got wiped out again. Boring.

What ever........😕

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2018, 06:23:25 PM »
.

Here for the fifth or sixth time:

Let me answer you;

1) Mut'ah is mustahab just as permanent marriage is mustahab.

2 and 3) These are intertwined, sometimes it is due to culture and sometimes it is because mut'ah should not be done under some circumstances and these circumstances are mentioned in the hadiths. If you want, I can post some hadiths applying some conditions.

4) - not directed at me -

5) - not directed at me -

6) It is not mustahab for a virgin sister to engage in mut'ah. I don't know where you got that everyone was discouraging her, I just read the thread and some brothers did not shy away from answers.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Khaled

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2018, 09:33:35 PM »
Let me answer you

بارك الله فيك, thanks for attempting to answer.  Just so you know, this is a list of questions I posed to Ameen/Iceman on the big Mut'ah thread, so these questions are related to the conversations over there.  For example:

Quote
1) Mut'ah is mustahab just as permanent marriage is mustahab.

This was already established, however, this is not the full fatwa as quoted by Ayatollah Khamini.  The fatwa goes like this:

Quote
Q: If in the mukallaf’s country/city the common view considers mut‘ah marriage as a slander or accusation in such a way that a believer is accused of being not religious and having illegal relations or even despised if he/she does it, what is the ruling, then?

A: Although mut‘ah marriage is permissible, or rather mustahabb in our view, it is not obligatory in shar‘. Therefore, if it leads to conflict, accusation or vile consequences matters that are not acceptable by the Divine Legislator, it is rendered impermissible for the mukallaf to be indulged in such a marriage.

This the fatwa quoted by Ameen, notice, that the only condition he places on Mut'ah is if it "leads to ... vile consequences", i.e., the only condition is as long as it is not taboo.

Quote
2 and 3) These are intertwined, sometimes it is due to culture and sometimes it is because mut'ah should not be done under some circumstances and these circumstances are mentioned in the hadiths. If you want, I can post some hadiths applying some conditions.

They are not intertwined:
a) One is a questions about cultural taboos, the other is a request for a fatwa that restricts Mut'ah.
b) Which cultures do you know have ever considered Mut'ah a non-taboo issue other than pre-Islamic Arabs? (this is a VERY important point which I am guessing you and Ameen will completely ignore)
c) Please provide fatwas (for me) or ahadeeth (for Rationalist), as that was questions #3.
d) If you are able to provide any, can you tell me how reconcile them with the ahadeeth stating that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said that doing Mut'ah four times will put you on the same status as him?  Do you reconcile them?  Do you reject one?  What is your methodology for doing so?

Quote
4) - not directed at me -

Alhamdulilah you're not one of those "I can prove Mut'ah from Sunni narrations" type of guys.  Ameen on that thread was unable to answer the questions like you are trying to, and instead would post narrations stating "Omar banned Mutah" every couple of pages.

Quote
5) - not directed at me -

While true, you did post in your other (unwise) thread about slavery that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم would never allow something haram even though there is a consensus that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم "allowed" drinking alcohol, and "allowed" the changing of the adopted son's last name; yet those things were later made haram.  This argument really works against any Shi'i.

Quote
6) It is not mustahab for a virgin sister to engage in mut'ah.

I was wondering why they were discouraging her from engaging with multiple Mut'ah partners.  I didn't mention anything about virginity.

Quote
I don't know where you got that everyone was discouraging her, I just read the thread and some brothers did not shy away from answers.

Everyone could be discouraging her while simultaneously answering her... I don't see the contradiction.  So the question still remains; why would you discourage someone from having more than one Mut'ah partner if doing it four times causes the person to be on the same status as the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم?  Have you heard of any acts in 12ersim with this level of reward (including permanent marriage?)
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: 'Relationship Between Sahaba and Ahlul Bayt' by Ibn Ahmad
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2018, 05:16:09 AM »

This was already established, however, this is not the full fatwa as quoted by Ayatollah Khamini.  The fatwa goes like this:

This the fatwa quoted by Ameen, notice, that the only condition he places on Mut'ah is if it "leads to ... vile consequences", i.e., the only condition is as long as it is not taboo.

They are not intertwined:
a) One is a questions about cultural taboos, the other is a request for a fatwa that restricts Mut'ah.
b) Which cultures do you know have ever considered Mut'ah a non-taboo issue other than pre-Islamic Arabs? (this is a VERY important point which I am guessing you and Ameen will completely ignore)
c) Please provide fatwas (for me) or ahadeeth (for Rationalist), as that was questions #3.
d) If you are able to provide any, can you tell me how reconcile them with the ahadeeth stating that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said that doing Mut'ah four times will put you on the same status as him?  Do you reconcile them?  Do you reject one?  What is your methodology for doing so?


While I was searching for the hadiths on Google, it would seem I hit the jackpot. Someone on ShiaChat has already answered this issue;

http://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031609-dr-farrokh-sekaleshfar-slams-mutah-obsessives/?do=findComment&comment=2824204

A) The cultural taboo may be the reason why it mut'ah is restricted.
B) I personally don't know.
C) I did, please check the link and look at the comments of the brothers.
D) We reconcile them, just as Sayyed Khamenei did, wherein he said it is mustahab in and of itself but said if it leads to vile consequences it won't be.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

 

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