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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Sahabah-AhlulBayt => Topic started by: Hani on August 03, 2017, 01:39:25 AM

Title: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Hani on August 03, 2017, 01:39:25 AM
Salam,

An important article from Nahj-ul-Balaghah proving `Ali went to great length in support of `Uthman, that `Ali viewed `Uthman's killers as unjust, that `Ali is proud of his support but `Uthman requested that he steps down etc...

http://nahjul-balagha.net/ali-protects-uthman/

However, the article was missing the remainder of this Sermon 168:

وقد قال له قوم من الصحابة: لو عاقبت قوماً ممن أجلب على عثمان؟ فقال:

يَا إخْوَتَاهُ! إنِّي لَسْتُ أَجْهَلُ مَا تَعْلَمُونَ، وَلكِنْ كَيْفَ لي بِقُوَّة وَالْقَوْمُ الْـمُجْلبُونَ[1] عَلَى حَدِّ شَوْكَتِهِمْ[2]، يَمْلِكُونَنَا وَلاَ نَمْلِكُهُمْ! وهَاهُمْ هؤُلاَءِ قَدْ ثَارَتْ مَعَهُمْ عِبْدَانِكُمْ، وَالْتَفَّتْ إلَيْهِمْ أَعْرَابُكُمْ، وَهُمْ خِلاَلَكُمْ[3] يَسُومُونَكُمْ[4] مَا شَاؤُوا; وَهَلْ تَرَوْنَ مَوْضِعاً لِقُدْرَة عَلَى شَيء، تُرِيدُونَهُ؟!

[When a group of `Ali's companions requested that he punishes those who assaulted `Uthman. He answered: O brothers, I am not ignorant of what you say. However, how can I accomplish this when those who assaulted are in the height of their power? They are dominant over us not we over them. They are now in the position that even your slaves have risen with them and Bedouin Arabs too have joined them. They are now among you and are harming you as they like. Do you see any way to be able to do what you aim at!?]

I feel this should be added in full and not just a part of it as it contains vital historical information on what `Ali's position was (Sunni position). I request those in charge of the site to do so.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 17, 2018, 03:12:30 PM
Salaam,

Sermon 168 was given by Imam Ali (a.s) after people swore allegiance to Amir al-mu'minin Ali (a.s) and some companions of the Prophet (s.a.w.w) said to him (a.s) that he (a.s) should punish the people who assaulted ‘Uthman.

Now what I want to know is why did Imam Ali (a.s) not punish killers of 'Uthman during his period of Caliphate?

- Were those people who assaulted 'Uthman always in the height of their power during 5 years of Imam Ali (a.s) Caliphate rule?

- Why did Muawiyah fight with Imam Ali (a.s) instead of helping Imam Ali (a.s) so that Imam Ali (a.s) and Muawiyah (jointly) would gain power over killers of Usman and thus avenge Usman's blood by punishing them?

- Is it true that Imam Ali (a.s) took bayah from assassins of 'Uthman and let them join his Army? If its true then why did Imam Ali (a.s) instead of punishing them or showing some hatred towards them... accept bayah from them and let them join his forces?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 17, 2018, 09:30:21 PM
How did Usman die, what happened? If you can shed light on this then one can clearly get to the bottom of it.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 18, 2018, 02:34:46 AM
Salaam,

Sermon 168 was given by Imam Ali (a.s) after people swore allegiance to Amir al-mu'minin Ali (a.s) and some companions of the Prophet (s.a.w.w) said to him (a.s) that he (a.s) should punish the people who assaulted ‘Uthman.

Now what I want to know is why did Imam Ali (a.s) not punish killers of 'Uthman during his period of Caliphate?

- Were those people who assaulted 'Uthman always in the height of their power during 5 years of Imam Ali (a.s) Caliphate rule?

- Why did Muawiyah fight with Imam Ali (a.s) instead of helping Imam Ali (a.s) so that Imam Ali (a.s) and Muawiyah (jointly) would gain power over killers of Usman and thus avenge Usman's blood by punishing them?

- Is it true that Imam Ali (a.s) took bayah from assassins of 'Uthman and let them join his Army? If its true then why did Imam Ali (a.s) instead of punishing them or showing some hatred towards them... accept bayah from them and let them join his forces?

The answer is POLITICS.

Not all is binary.

Look at shia Iraq. Abdul Majid Khoei killed by sadr or khomeini?
Does that mean one side is kufr rebels & other on haq?

Its human nature, politics, allegiences & differences between even those held in high regards on both sides.

It happens.

Is khomeni on haqq or those respected shia who oppose him?

Before shia take a binary view of the sahabas differences in the past, they should look at their own marja & leaders today.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 18, 2018, 01:08:37 PM
The answer is POLITICS.

Not all is binary.

Look at shia Iraq. Abdul Majid Khoei killed by sadr or khomeini?
Does that mean one side is kufr rebels & other on haq?

Its human nature, politics, allegiences & differences between even those held in high regards on both sides.

It happens.

Is khomeni on haqq or those respected shia who oppose him?

Before shia take a binary view of the sahabas differences in the past, they should look at their own marja & leaders today.

Why do you seem to get personal on everything and give it the Anti or v Shia touch? Is it the way you've been raised and groomed. What happened with Usman, do you want to shed some light on his murder or continue with sticking to putting one up and against the Shia.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 18, 2018, 04:17:18 PM
Why do you seem to get personal on everything and give it the Anti or v Shia touch? Is it the way you've been raised and groomed. What happened with Usman, do you want to shed some light on his murder or continue with sticking to putting one up and against the Shia.

Haha... Good Lord! Since when that answer was personal? 😂
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: muslim720 on July 18, 2018, 05:09:41 PM
The discussion topic is Imam Ali's (ra) reaction to Uthman's (ra) death.  Another user wants to take three steps back to discuss how Uthman (ra) died.  Changing goal posts much?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 18, 2018, 05:20:42 PM
I asked:

Now what I want to know is why did Imam Ali (a.s) not punish killers of 'Uthman during his period of Caliphate?

You answered:

The answer is POLITICS.

What Politics?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 18, 2018, 05:22:15 PM
If Imam Ali (a.s) did not punish assassins of Uthman due to politics... then did Muawiya during his rule punish the assassins of Uthman?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 18, 2018, 06:31:51 PM
Who were the assassins of Usman? Bringing them to justice and punishing them is a later matter. Why didn't Ali do this or that can also be discussed but what was there to be done. Usman's wife got injured trying to save him. In the struggle she lost two of her fingers. 

Noe if this is true then she definitely knew who the killer or killers were. Is there anything from history were she demanded Qisas for he husband's death and wanted the killer/s to be brought to justice. Do we have anything from her.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 18, 2018, 06:57:03 PM
Haha... Good Lord! Since when that answer was personal? 😂

Ok, point taken 😊 Muawiyah was very strong and influential and was a recognised figure and also related to Usman, did he have no duty and role in protecting Usman because the threat was imminent?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: muslim720 on July 18, 2018, 07:00:40 PM
Why didn't Ali do this or that can also be discussed but what was there to be done.

We are only sharing your own sources with you to prove the inconsistencies in your arguments.

Quote
Usman's wife got injured trying to save him. In the struggle she lost two of her fingers.

Yes, I have read that report.  Ironically, a woman threw her hands between her husband and down-coming sword but Imam Ali (ra), according to you, chose to be a spectator when his wife (ra) was (allegedly) attacked.

Quote
Noe if this is true then she definitely knew who the killer or killers were.

You are turning this into a crime scene without realizing that the attackers did not wait to pose for a picture.  Not to mention their identities (faces) could be concealed.

Quote
Is there anything from history were she demanded Qisas for he husband's death and wanted the killer/s to be brought to justice.

Assuming there was no demand from her, does that invalidate the concept of Qisas?

Quote
Do we have anything from her.

That still does not invalidate the right of family members to Qisas.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on July 19, 2018, 01:13:35 PM
Ok, point taken 😊 Muawiyah was very strong and influential and was a recognised figure and also related to Usman, did he have no duty and role in protecting Usman because the threat was imminent?

What could he do when Uthman(ra) didnt want bloodshed in the holy city of Prophet(saws) due to him. Infact he even stopped Ali(ra) when he asled persmission from uthman(ra).
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 19, 2018, 03:49:10 PM
While I was searching internet for relevant information regarding assassins of 'Uthman, I found following letter of 'Uthman's wife to Muawiya inciting him to rise against 'Uthman's assassins.

http://www.alim.org/library/biography/khalifa/content/KUT/50/2

Quote
Khalifa Uthman bin Affan - Naila's Letter to Amir Muawiyah

Naila's letter

In her letter, Naila wrote:

"From Naila bint Farafsa to Amir Muawiyah b Abi Sufyan.

By this letter I call you to God Who showered His bounties on you; made you Muslims; showed you the light, and liberated you from kufr.

In the name of God I appeal to you to rise in the cause of Uthman who has been butchered mercilessly. By way of your relationship with him, the responsibility to avenge his blood devolves on you. It is the command of Allah that if there is bloodshed between two groups of Muslims you should strive for peace among them, but, if any group transgresses, take action against the rebels and kill them.

Some people rebelled against Uthman without just cause. You know what high position Uthman commanded in Islam. He was very close and dear to the Holy Prophet. He never coveted the caliphate. He was chosen as the Caliph by the people. During the twelve years of his office he worked day and night for the welfare of the people. During his caliphate extensive conquests were made. Immense wealth flowed into the public treasury. The stipends of the people were increased. The people became more prosperous. Instead of appreciating the benefits of his rule some miscreants because of ulterior considerations conspired against him. Uthman could have suppressed such agitation with force, but he refrained from using force against his people. As a true Muslim he resigned himself to the decree of God.

He satisfactorily explained all the allegations that were levelled against him. During the twelve years of his caliphate he did' not charge any thing for his emoluments from the public treasury. He spent large amounts from his own resources for public benefit. He was the richest man in Arabia at the time of becoming the caliph; after becoming the caliph his assets steadily diminished. False and frivolous charges of nepotism were levelled against him, he was a good judge of men and matters, and he appointed only such persons who enjoyed his confidence, and who could be expected to carry forward his policies.

The revolt against Uthman was the result of some antinational conspiracy. Some extraneous forces pulled the wires. Jealous of the triumphs of Islam they conspired to subvert Islam from within. What is regrettable is that even some eminent Companions played into the hands of these conspirators, and lent them their indirect support.

The rioters besieged the house of Uthman. They stood at the door fully armed. They did not allow any food or water to enter the house. We were denied the use of water from the well which Uthman had purchased with his own money. The rebels accepted the lead of Ali, Muhammad b Abu Bakr, Talha and Zubair in all matters. Among the rioters were the tribes of Khuza'ah, Sa'ad b Bakr, Hudhail, Jahina, and the Muzina They also included contingents from

Basra and Kufa In the siege the rioters wounded Uthman with arrows. These persons killed some persons who wanted to fight against them in defense of the Caliph. The Caliph looked around him, but he could see no person in Madina from whom he could expect justice.

The rioters penetrated into the house. They burnt the gate, broke 'tine windows and looted property. Muhammad b Abu Bakr pulled the beard of the Caliph. Then one of the rioters struck Uthman on the head and he fell down unconscious. The rioters wanted to cut off his head. I and Bint Shiba threw ourselves on the body of Uthman. They pulled us away and robbed us of our ornaments.

I am sending you along with this letter the blood stained clothes of the Caliph. Please see that his blood does not go unavenged. May Allah have mercy on the soul of Uthman! May the curse of God be on his murderers!"


Is this letter authentic?

If this letter is authentic then why did 'Uthman's wife not ask the ruler (i.e. Caliph) of her time Amir ul Momineen Imam Ali (a.s) of punishing assassins of 'Uthman instead of inciting Muawiya to avenge 'Uthman's death?

And lastly, when Muawiya became ruler (i.e. King) of Muslims, did he comply with the request of 'Uthman wife and punish the assassins of 'Uthman?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: muslim720 on July 20, 2018, 05:07:27 PM
And lastly, when Muawiya became ruler (i.e. King) of Muslims, did he comply with the request of 'Uthman wife and punish the assassins of 'Uthman?

Leaving the letter aside, until we establish its authenticity or lack thereof, this is why you should appreciate Muawiyah's haste (in the matter of Uthman's qisas).  I do not know how much did Muawiyah follow up on this matter but there is a saying among people from the subcontinent which loosely translated goes: you hammer the iron when its hot (in reference to blacksmiths).  By the time Muawiyah became the leader, the matter had gone cold and the culprits were scattered all around, perhaps more influential than before.

Having said all that, the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah position is that Imam Ali (ra) was upon haqq.  However, I only wanted to highlight the fact that Muawiyah's concerns (demand for qisas and being hasty in the matter) were not invalid.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 21, 2018, 02:05:19 AM
http://www.islamhelpline.net/qa/123

From the above link you get the following reply;

"When Hadrat Aisha heard about the brutal murder of Hadrat Uthman, and in the manner in which she was told the whole gruesome episode, she took a position to bring the criminals who had murdered Hadrat Uthman to justice! There is no doubt that she was a victim of mis-information, which resulted in her mobilizing the opposition at the Battle of Jamal. Hadrat Aisha later in her recordings admitted her mistake at mobilizing the opposition, and would regret the stand she had taken against Hadrat Ali (r.a.)"

Notice the words 'VICTIM OF MISINFORMATION ' and 'ADMITTED HER MISTAKE'

Some serious mistakes we have here which cost many lives and which stained Islamic history and brought a dark era.

Point to be noted that Aisha was misinformed, but misinformed by whom? Misinformed in exactly the same way and manner that people are being misinformed  of Shiaism and the Shias. This misinformation about Ali and then his Shias has been going on for sometime.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 21, 2018, 02:24:26 AM
The answer is POLITICS.

Not all is binary.

Look at shia Iraq. Abdul Majid Khoei killed by sadr or khomeini?
Does that mean one side is kufr rebels & other on haq?

Its human nature, politics, allegiences & differences between even those held in high regards on both sides.

It happens.

Is khomeni on haqq or those respected shia who oppose him?

Before shia take a binary view of the sahabas differences in the past, they should look at their own marja & leaders today.

Probably the answer should be according to your terms, just as Abu Bakr couldn't or wouldn't punish Khalid ibn Whalid for his crime. Because Khalid was no ordinary person but a very important and influential figure.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 21, 2018, 02:29:37 AM
Can someone shed some light on the following;

Sunni historian reported that Once Aisha went to Uthman and asked for her share of inheritance of Prophet (after so many years passed from the death of Prophet). Uthman refrained to give Aisha any money by reminding her that she was one those who testified and encouraged Abu-Bakr to refrain to pay the share of inheritance of Fatimah (AS). So if Fatimah does not have any share of inheritance, then why should she? Aisha became extremely angry at Uthman, and came out saying:
"Kill this old fool (Na'thal), for he is unbeliever."
References:
History of Ibn Athir, v3, p206
Lisan al-Arab, v14, p141
al-Iqd al-Farid, v4, p290
Sharh al-Nahj, by Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v16, pp 220-223
Manaqib by Khawarzmi, page 117
Tadkhirath al Khawwas page 38
Asadul Ghaba Volume 3 page 14, "Dhikr Jamal"
Al Istiab Volume 2 page 185
Al Nahaya Volume 5 page 80
Qamus page 500 "lughut Nathal" by Firozabadi
Iqd al Fareed Volume 2 page 117 "Dhikr Jamal"
Shaykh Mudheera page 163

Did Aisha instigate the murder of Usman?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Hani on July 21, 2018, 06:37:40 AM
Can someone shed some light on the following;

Sunni historian reported that Once Aisha went to Uthman and asked for her share of inheritance of Prophet (after so many years passed from the death of Prophet). Uthman refrained to give Aisha any money by reminding her that she was one those who testified and encouraged Abu-Bakr to refrain to pay the share of inheritance of Fatimah (AS). So if Fatimah does not have any share of inheritance, then why should she? Aisha became extremely angry at Uthman, and came out saying:
"Kill this old fool (Na'thal), for he is unbeliever."
References:
History of Ibn Athir, v3, p206
Lisan al-Arab, v14, p141
al-Iqd al-Farid, v4, p290
Sharh al-Nahj, by Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v16, pp 220-223
Manaqib by Khawarzmi, page 117
Tadkhirath al Khawwas page 38
Asadul Ghaba Volume 3 page 14, "Dhikr Jamal"
Al Istiab Volume 2 page 185
Al Nahaya Volume 5 page 80
Qamus page 500 "lughut Nathal" by Firozabadi
Iqd al Fareed Volume 2 page 117 "Dhikr Jamal"
Shaykh Mudheera page 163

Did Aisha instigate the murder of Usman?

Okay you dumb Shia moron, I read this irrelevant garbage you copied which has nothing to do with the topic, I went to the first source listed (History of Ibn al-Athir) I couldn't find it, can you locate this for us you backwards ignorant ape?

Here's the entirety of volume three in PDF:
https://ia802707.us.archive.org/15/items/WAQkamilt/kamilt03.pdf
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 21, 2018, 06:55:16 PM
Okay you dumb Shia moron, I read this irrelevant garbage you copied which has nothing to do with the topic, I went to the first source listed (History of Ibn al-Athir) I couldn't find it, can you locate this for us you backwards ignorant ape?

Here's the entirety of volume three in PDF:
https://ia802707.us.archive.org/15/items/WAQkamilt/kamilt03.pdf

Did I touch a painful nerve? 😊 And a very painful nerve by the sound of it. You only like to mention and tell one side of the story and tale. Why not both or all sides 😊

https://www.ummah.com/forum/member/8734-al-ghurabah
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 21, 2018, 07:10:18 PM
Did I touch a painful nerve? 😊 And a very painful nerve by the sound of it. You only like to mention and tell one side of the story and tale. Why not both or all sides 😊

https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/islam/general-islamic-topics/115473-death-of-uthman-ra
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: muslim720 on July 22, 2018, 03:19:53 AM
Aisha became extremely angry at Uthman, and came out saying:
"Kill this old fool (Na'thal), for he is unbeliever."
References:
History of Ibn Athir, v3, p206
Lisan al-Arab, v14, p141
al-Iqd al-Farid, v4, p290
Sharh al-Nahj, by Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v16, pp 220-223
Manaqib by Khawarzmi, page 117
Tadkhirath al Khawwas page 38
Asadul Ghaba Volume 3 page 14, "Dhikr Jamal"
Al Istiab Volume 2 page 185
Al Nahaya Volume 5 page 80
Qamus page 500 "lughut Nathal" by Firozabadi
Iqd al Fareed Volume 2 page 117 "Dhikr Jamal"
Shaykh Mudheera page 163

While "dumb Shia moron" and "dip$hit" best describe you, there are more adjectives I can throw at you but save yourself some embarrassment and read this: http://www.sjiieten-ontmaskerd.nl/AhlelBayt.com/www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/rebuttals/nathal.html

Now I know you are not into reading counter-rebuttals so I'll highlight the main points here.

History of Ibn Athir - wrong title; the correct name you were looking for is "al-Kamil fi al-Tareekh" which is a secondary source quoting directly from, in fact based upon, Tareekh At-Tabari.  The introduction in Tareekh at-Tabari clearly states that the author reported everything without authenticating any of the reports. 

If you click on the link I've shared with you, it establishes the weakness of the narration.

Lisan al-Arab - a dictionary, you dimwit!  Since when did we establish history and beliefs from dictionaries?

al-Iqd al-Fareed - a literary novel replete with elements of fiction.

Sharh Nahj-ul Balagha - you have tried to pass this off in the past as a Sunni source but for the 3rd time, the author was a Mu'tazilite Shi'i.

Manaqib by Khawarzmi - no such narration in his book.  By the way, also a secondary source.

Tadkhirath al-Khawwas - the dumb moron you (and the Shias who fed you these sources) are, this book was written by Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi, the Hanafi turned Shia, not the Ibn al-Jawzi (the famous Sunni scholar).

Asadul Ghaba - more like Usd ul-Ghaba, you dip$hit but your blunders are too many to keep track of!  Again, a secondary source without a chain of narration for the report.

Al-Istiab - secondary source; narration without a chain.

Al-Nahaya - another dictionary, like Lisan al-Arab.

Qamus - dictionary, yet again!

Iqd al-Fareed - already refuted; a literary novel full of fiction!

Shaykh Mudheera - trying to pass off an anti-Sunni book as a Sunni book?  This book was written by the contemporary heretic Mahmud Abu Rayya.


Did I touch a painful nerve? 😊 And a very painful nerve by the sound of it.

You did not touch a nerve.  You only proved to us that you deserve every harsh word ever said to you on this forum.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 22, 2018, 10:29:06 PM
What happened to Usman. He got murdered. By whom and why. Where were the Umayads who he favoured and brought into government positions. Where was the Muslim army and the security personal. Where were the Sahaba and most of all where was the Ahle Sunah Wal Jama'ah.

Nobody went out to protect Usman when he was alive but when he got killed they showed concern to the level that they took up arms and turned Muslims against Muslims. I've left out the question marks since I know they're too painful for you fellas.

Multiple question, yes I know they seem to bother you. You can't even answer one so its obvious that many will definitely kill you.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: muslim720 on July 23, 2018, 05:20:40 PM
....and no acknowledgment of his blunder, let alone an apology!
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 12:30:41 AM
....and no acknowledgment of his blunder, let alone an apology!

Absolutely no blunder on my behalf.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 24, 2018, 01:34:38 AM
Absolutely no blunder on my behalf.

You don’t acknowledge the blunders pointed out by the brother?
Caught red handed & still in denial.
Pathetic.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 24, 2018, 08:35:56 AM
Nobody went out to protect Usman when he was alive but when he got killed they showed concern to the level that they took up arms and turned Muslims against Muslims. I've left out the question marks since I know they're too painful for you fellas.

Another terrible blunder? Do some readings before you talk...
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 01:17:26 PM
Another terrible blunder? Do some readings before you talk...

Get some knowledge and information, do some homework, develop and open mind and use sense and logic, once you've done that you won't even need to discuss anything. The ANTI SHIA FEVER will disappear automatically. 😊
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 24, 2018, 02:11:14 PM
Leaving the letter aside, until we establish its authenticity or lack thereof, this is why you should appreciate Muawiyah's haste (in the matter of Uthman's qisas).  I do not know how much did Muawiyah follow up on this matter but there is a saying among people from the subcontinent which loosely translated goes: you hammer the iron when its hot (in reference to blacksmiths).  By the time Muawiyah became the leader, the matter had gone cold and the culprits were scattered all around, perhaps more influential than before.

Battle of Siffin was fought 4 years before Muawiya came into power. It's really surprising to know that in four years the murder of 'Uthman had gone cold.

I thought that the differences that Muawiya had with Imam Hassan (a.s) was same as he had with his father Imam Ali (a.s) i.e. to punish the assassins of 'Uthman. If the matter had gone cold when Muawiya became the leader (which was in the same year Imam Hassan (a.s) had become leader of Muslims) then why did Muawiya intend to wage a war with Caliph of his time? I need to know what was the reason which made Muawiya to wage a war with Imam Hassan (a.s)?

Having said all that, the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah position is that Imam Ali (ra) was upon haqq.  However, I only wanted to highlight the fact that Muawiyah's concerns (demand for qisas and being hasty in the matter) were not invalid.

So you are saying Imam Ali (a.s) was upon haqq by not punishing the assassins of 'Uthman but taking bayah from assassins of 'Uthman and letting them join his (a.s) forces to fight with those who were seeking qisas for 'Uthman's murder?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 24, 2018, 02:28:52 PM
Nobody went out to protect Usman when he was alive but when he got killed they showed concern to the level that they took up arms and turned Muslims against Muslims. I've left out the question marks since I know they're too painful for you fellas.

Again, another terrible blunder?

Get some knowledge and information, do some homework, develop and open mind and use sense and logic, once you've done that you won't even need to discuss anything. The ANTI SHIA FEVER will disappear automatically. 😊

And as usual again, never acknowledging his blunder nor admitting his mistake.

What an ego.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 24, 2018, 02:37:44 PM
So you are saying Imam Ali (a.s) was upon haqq by not punishing the assassins of 'Uthman but taking bayah from assassins of 'Uthman and letting them join his (a.s) forces to fight with those who were seeking qisas for 'Uthman's murder?

Ali (ra) took the bay'ah from the rebels and not punishing them simply because he didn't know who the rebels and who were not. So, he accepted them all.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 24, 2018, 03:47:44 PM
Ali (ra) took the bay'ah from the rebels and not punishing them simply because he didn't know who the rebels and who were not. So, he accepted them all.

So those who murdered 'Uthman and those who participated in rebelling against 'Uthman and his government as well as those who were involved in instigating against 'Uthman which led to his murder were unknown?

Was there anyone who knew who the murderers of 'Uthman were and come forward and reveal them to Imam Ali (a.s)?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 24, 2018, 11:59:14 PM
Any news on who killed Usman and why?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 26, 2018, 12:15:09 PM
One more thing which I like to know is:

- How did Imam Ali know that rebels were in the height of their power when the rebels were unknown to him (a.s)?

- How did Imam Ali (a.s) know that unknown rebels were dominant over them (i.e. Imam Ali and Companions of the Prophet (s.a.w.w) who requested taking qisas for 'Uthman's murder)?

- How did Imam Ali (a.s) know that unknown rebels were in such a position that even slaves have risen with them and Bedouin Arabs have joined them? It seems like slaves and Bedouin Arabs knew who those unknown rebels were.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 26, 2018, 04:03:53 PM
So those who murdered 'Uthman and those who participated in rebelling against 'Uthman and his government as well as those who were involved in instigating against 'Uthman which led to his murder were unknown?

Was there anyone who knew who the murderers of 'Uthman were and come forward and reveal them to Imam Ali (a.s)?

I myself would love the hear the explanation for this event.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Hani on July 27, 2018, 05:57:35 AM
Here's the deal, those who instigated or besieged are not to be punished in the same way as those who actually went in and killed him. There was a commotion and a bunch of people entered the house, some from the roof, some scaled the walls, he was struck by several of these people. Some rumors say it was an African man from Egypt who deal the lethal blow but that's all flimsy evidence. I don't think the killers would boast and go public with it.
Mu`awiyah wanted to punish a whole group of people he suspected were behind the attack, he may have been even asking for hundreds of men to be handed to him, very difficult request. `Ali wanted things to settle before any action was taken but unlike Mu`awiyah it doesn't seem he was going to punish hundreds, just whoever he found had a direct link.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 27, 2018, 12:01:33 PM
So instigators, besiegers and killers of 'Uthman were left unpunished during the rule of Imam Ali (a.s) as well as during the rule of Muawiya? Why was there no trial of those people who were suspected of being involved in the murder of 'Uthman?

After the reading the sermon which you posted (at the start of this thread) it does not seem like Imam Ali (a.s) was ever going to punish them as he (a.s) found the unknown rebels dominant and powerful.

Also I did like to know the reason which made the unknown rebels to go against 'Uthman and his government? And why did 'Uthman and his government not take appropriate actions against those unknown rebels for creating disturbance and fitna which was harmful as this would weaken the Muslim Ummah?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 27, 2018, 12:19:39 PM
Here's the deal, those who instigated or besieged are not to be punished in the same way as those who actually went in and killed him. There was a commotion and a bunch of people entered the house, some from the roof, some scaled the walls, he was struck by several of these people. Some rumors say it was an African man from Egypt who deal the lethal blow but that's all flimsy evidence. I don't think the killers would boast and go public with it.
Mu`awiyah wanted to punish a whole group of people he suspected were behind the attack, he may have been even asking for hundreds of men to be handed to him, very difficult request. `Ali wanted things to settle before any action was taken but unlike Mu`awiyah it doesn't seem he was going to punish hundreds, just whoever he found had a direct link.

Once again, this is not a person in charge of a group or party who got assassinated,  he was the third Caliph of the Muslims. We know the killers of both Umar and Ali and the reason and motive behind the killings, but when it cones to Usman we want to punish the killers and demand justice but who were the killers and what was the reason and motive.

Nothing seems to be clear and no one can comment on this. There is nothing clear and solid to work on. Nowa days a weak case like this wouldn't even go anywhere near court never mind about justice, that would be a long way. WHO KILLED USMAN AND WHY. WHAT WAS THE REASON AND MOTIVE. We need to look at the basics and start putting a case together before we can start accusing anyone of the killing and why didn't Ali do this or that over it.

'A bunch of people entered the house bla bla, some rumours say it was an African man from Egypt etc etc etc'

Do you see how this sounds like and is coming out as. There's nothing there to go on. Nowa days the police wouldn't be able to right a basic report on this.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 27, 2018, 12:46:28 PM
Politics is the dirtiest game.
All kinds of manipulating, snakes, treacherous, caniving characters at play.
It doesn’t matter if your’re a righteous caliph or a tyrant in a kufr state,you are still in the polluted game.
I suggest you read on political history books in general to grasp just how murky & ugly complicated matter it is.
Instigations, conspiracies, etc.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 27, 2018, 01:04:58 PM
Politics is the dirtiest game.
All kinds of manipulating, snakes, treacherous, caniving characters at play.
It doesn’t matter if your’re a righteous caliph or a tyrant in a kufr state,you are still in the polluted game.
I suggest you read on political history books in general to grasp just how murky & ugly complicated matter it is.
Instigations, conspiracies, etc.

Other matters weren't ugly and complicated so why are we using excuses here and on this occasion. The matters is clear that if you kind provide the basics then we have a very weak case. If there's nothing much to work on in fact simple and basic questions as such, WHO WERE THE KILLERS OF USMAN AND WHAT WAS THE REASON AND WHAT COULD BE THE MOTIVE BEHIND HIS KILLING, can't be answered till this very day then accusations on Ali not doing anything about it and all the rest of it should be put to rest.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 27, 2018, 01:37:41 PM
Other matters weren't ugly and complicated so why are we using excuses here and on this occasion. The matters is clear that if you kind provide the basics then we have a very weak case. If there's nothing much to work on in fact simple and basic questions as such, WHO WERE THE KILLERS OF USMAN AND WHAT WAS THE REASON AND WHAT COULD BE THE MOTIVE BEHIND HIS KILLING, can't be answered till this very day then accusations on Ali not doing anything about it and all the rest of it should be put to rest.

Why is it you always oppose & think you know better than your own no.1 Imam?
So disgraced are you that you belittle your own Imams out of arrogance.

Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) in nahj ul balagha sermon 92 (just after Uthman’s may Allah be pleased with him assination & appointment of Ali as his successor):

“Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible.

Clearly Ali, may Allah be pleased with him has answered your questions: he could not pinpoint who did what.

If you want to mock my answer then you are mocking your no.1 Imam too. If you are not happy with the answer then maybe you can ask him to explain on the day of judgement.

Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 27, 2018, 01:48:21 PM
Why is it you always oppose & think you know better than your own no.1 Imam?
So disgraced are you that you belittle your own Imams out of arrogance.

Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) in nahj ul balagha sermon 92 (just after Uthman’s may Allah be pleased with him assination & appointment of Ali as his successor):

<b> “Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. “<\b>

Clearly Ali, may Allah be pleased with him has answered your questions: he could not pinpoint who did what.

If you want to mock my answer then you are mocking your no.1 Imam too. If you are not happy with the answer then maybe you can ask him to explain on the day of judgement.

Well for heavens sake give it a rest then. Why do you keep banging on about why Ali didn't do this or why he didn't do that. If the matter has many faces and the situation is cloudy then put the case to rest and move on.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 27, 2018, 01:52:10 PM
Well for heavens sake give it a rest then. Why do you keep banging on about why Ali didn't do this or why he didn't do that. If the matter has many faces and the situation is cloudy then put the case to rest and move on.

Ijtaba & yourself asked for details regarding Uthman’s killers.
You’ve been answered by none other than your own no.1 Imam.
Comprehend?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 27, 2018, 02:14:53 PM
Ijtaba & yourself asked for details regarding Uthman’s killers.
You’ve been answered by none other than your own no.1 Imam.
Comprehend?

Absolutely and the matter isn't clear. It's cloudy, it's confusing, it has many faces etc. Not my words by the way.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 27, 2018, 02:27:06 PM
Absolutely and the matter isn't clear. It's cloudy, it's confusing, it has many faces etc. Not my words by the way.

Then we have reached an agreement on this particular aspect of the matter.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 27, 2018, 02:44:54 PM
Politics is the dirtiest game.
All kinds of manipulating, snakes, treacherous, caniving characters at play.
It doesn’t matter if your’re a righteous caliph or a tyrant in a kufr state,you are still in the polluted game.
I suggest you read on political history books in general to grasp just how murky & ugly complicated matter it is.
Instigations, conspiracies, etc.

 ???

During the Caliphate of 'Uthman he was ruling people who are considered best generations of Muslim Ummah i.e. Sahabas and Tābi'een. So the question is who were the manipulating, snakes, treacherous, canning characters at play at the time when Muslim Ummah had its best generations (Sahabas and Tābi'een)?

Why is it you always oppose & think you know better than your own no.1 Imam?
So disgraced are you that you belittle your own Imams out of arrogance.

Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) in nahj ul balagha sermon 92 (just after Uthman’s may Allah be pleased with him assination & appointment of Ali as his successor):

“Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible.

Clearly Ali, may Allah be pleased with him has answered your questions: he could not pinpoint who did what.

If you want to mock my answer then you are mocking your no.1 Imam too. If you are not happy with the answer then maybe you can ask him to explain on the day of judgement.

Imam Ali (a.s) said this when people decided to make him Caliph and not when asked about the identity of unknown rebels (who were involved in the murder of 'Uthman).

Quote
Sermon 92: Leave me and find someone else ...

When people decided to swear allegiance1 at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of ‘Uthman, he said:

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-92-leave-me-and-find-someone-else

Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 27, 2018, 03:18:05 PM
???

During the Caliphate of 'Uthman he was ruling people who are considered best generations of Muslim Ummah i.e. Sahabas and Tābi'een. So the question is who were the manipulating, snakes, treacherous, canning characters at play at the time when Muslim Ummah had its best generations (Sahabas and Tābi'een)?

Imam Ali (a.s) said this when people decided to make him Caliph and not when asked about the identity of unknown rebels (who were involved in the murder of 'Uthman).

Can you prove that?

The events were interchangeably linked. I thought that was obvious?

Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 27, 2018, 03:37:47 PM
Can you prove that?

The events were interchangeably linked. I thought that was obvious?

Quote
Sermon 92: Leave me and find someone else ...

When people decided to swear allegiance at Amir al-mu'minin's hand after the murder of ‘Uthman, he said:

Leave me and seek some one else. We are facing a matter which has (several) faces and colours, which neither hearts can stand nor intelligence can accept. Clouds are hovering over the sky, and faces are not discernible. You should know that if I respond to you I would lead you as I know and would not listen to the utterance of any speaker or the reproof of any reprover. If you leave me then I am the same as you are. It is possible I would listen to and obey whomever you make in charge of your affairs. I am better for you as a counsellor than as chief.

There you have it. The discussion is all about people making a decision to select Imam Ali (a.s) as their ruler and Imam Ali (a.s) responding to the request of the people's decision by making them realize to ponder carefully on their decision and make informed decision. He (a.s) is saying to them he (a.s) is better to them as counselor rather than chief because if they were to make him (a.s) ruler then he would lead them as he (a.s) wills and would not care about reproof of any reprover. No mention of 'Uthman nor assassins of 'Uthman nor about unknown rebels (involved in activities which led to murder of 'Uthman.)
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 27, 2018, 04:04:32 PM
There you have it. The discussion is all about people making a decision to select Imam Ali (a.s) as their ruler and Imam Ali (a.s) responding to the request of the people's decision by making them realize to ponder carefully on their decision and make informed decision. He (a.s) is saying to them he (a.s) is better to them as counselor rather than chief because if they were to make him (a.s) ruler then he would lead them as he (a.s) wills and would not care about reproof of any reprover. No mention of 'Uthman nor assassins of 'Uthman nor about unknown rebels (involved in activities which led to murder of 'Uthman.)

Okay lets dumb it down for you.

The turmoil Ali is mentioning is the backdrop of Uthman’s assination.

To say the two events are not linked is like talking about the property market in 2010 & saying the challenges faced has nothing to do with the preceding financial market crash in 2009.



Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 27, 2018, 04:52:20 PM
Okay lets dumb it down for you.

The turmoil Ali is mentioning is the backdrop of Uthman’s assination.

To say the two events are not linked is like talking about the property market in 2010 & saying the challenges faced has nothing to do with the preceding financial market crash in 2009.

 ???

This sermon has got nothing to do with people involved in the assassination of 'Uthman.

Following sermon (which brother Hani posted in the first post of this thread) is related to people involved in the assassination of 'Uthman.

Sermon 168:

When a group of `Ali's companions requested that he punishes those who assaulted `Uthman. He answered: O brothers, I am not ignorant of what you say. However, how can I accomplish this when those who assaulted are in the height of their power? They are dominant over us not we over them. They are now in the position that even your slaves have risen with them and Bedouin Arabs too have joined them. They are now among you and are harming you as they like. Do you see any way to be able to do what you aim at!?


From this sermon it seems like those who assaulted 'Uthman were known to Imam Ali (a.s) and those Companions of Prophet (s.a.w.w) who requested Qisas of 'Uthman from Imam Ali (a.s) (those Companions referred in this sermon) and they (assaulters) were not unknown/obscure.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 27, 2018, 05:09:19 PM
???

This sermon has got nothing to do with people involved in the assassination of 'Uthman.

Following sermon (which brother Hani posted in the first post of this thread) is related to people involved in the assassination of 'Uthman.

Sermon 168:

When a group of `Ali's companions requested that he punishes those who assaulted `Uthman. He answered: O brothers, I am not ignorant of what you say. However, how can I accomplish this when those who assaulted are in the height of their power? They are dominant over us not we over them. They are now in the position that even your slaves have risen with them and Bedouin Arabs too have joined them. They are now among you and are harming you as they like. Do you see any way to be able to do what you aim at!?


From this sermon it seems like those who assaulted 'Uthman were known to Imam Ali (a.s) and those Companions of Prophet (s.a.w.w) who requested Qisas of 'Uthman from Imam Ali (a.s) (those Companions referred in this sermon) and they (assaulters) were not unknown/obscure.

This supports what I said. Also supports the sermon where Ali said they are obscure.
If they aren’t obscure then why is Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) not mentioning them by name rather than as ‘they’? Why is he alluding to them as infiltrators who have infiltrated the ranks of the people without the people knowing?
Clearly there was an uprising & mutiny against Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him), by tribes who had their particular grievances & concerns but also infiltration of sinister people at work (most muslims accuse the likes of Abdullah ibn Saba & his likes).
No one is saying all was hunky dorey with the 3rd caliphs policies.
Some tribes were genuinely grieved at his policy to have family members being the ruling class, some wanted land that wasn’t given, some were mercenaries who only joined Islam for the spoils of war, others were instigators of fitna like Abdullah ibn Saba etc.

The sermons support what I am saying, not you.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 27, 2018, 05:41:40 PM
This supports what I said. Also supports the sermon where Ali said they are obscure.
If they aren’t obscure then why is Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) not mentioning them by name rather than as ‘they’? Why is he alluding to them as infiltrators who have infiltrated the ranks of the people without the people knowing?
Clearly there was an uprising & mutiny against Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him), by tribes who had their particular grievances & concerns but also infiltration of sinister people at work (most muslims accuse the likes of Abdullah ibn Saba & his likes).
No one is saying all was hunky dorey with the 3rd caliphs policies.
Some tribes were genuinely grieved at his policy to have family members being the ruling class, some wanted land that wasn’t given, some were mercenaries who only joined Islam for the spoils of war, others were instigators of fitna like Abdullah ibn Saba etc.

The sermons support what I am saying, not you.

The sermons support what I am saying, not you. ;D

According to you, Companions of Prophet (s.a.w.w) instead of requesting to find out who the unknown rebels are so that they may be punished requests Imam Ali (a.s) to punish unknown unidentified people. Somehow Imam Ali (a.s) and those requesting Qisas know that unknown unidentified people are in the height of their power, are dominant and even know that slaves and Bedouin Arabs have joined those unknown and unidentified people.  :o

In the Best Generation of Muslim Ummah uprising & mutiny against 3rd Rightly Guided Caliph Uthman occurred. Its astonishing to know that in one place rebels are unknown and at other place Abdullah ibn Saba and his likes are accused. Can you provide evidence of involvement of Abdullah ibn Saba and his group behind activities of Fitna during the rule of 'Uthman? And if Abdullah bin Saba and his group were involved in Fitna... were they punished for their crimes?

Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 27, 2018, 06:34:27 PM
The sermons support what I am saying, not you. ;D

According to you, Companions of Prophet (s.a.w.w) instead of requesting to find out who the unknown rebels are so that they may be punished requests Imam Ali (a.s) to punish unknown unidentified people. Somehow Imam Ali (a.s) and those requesting Qisas know that unknown unidentified people are in the height of their power, are dominant and even know that slaves and Bedouin Arabs have joined those unknown and unidentified people.  :o

In the Best Generation of Muslim Ummah uprising & mutiny against 3rd Rightly Guided Caliph Uthman occurred. Its astonishing to know that in one place rebels are unknown and at other place Abdullah ibn Saba and his likes are accused. Can you provide evidence of involvement of Abdullah ibn Saba and his group behind activities of Fitna during the rule of 'Uthman? And if Abdullah bin Saba and his group were involved in Fitna... were they punished for their crimes?

This was a rebellion. With various factors & factions involved.
Some just looking to protest, others who murdered.
So tell me the names of who did what? Instead of asking here & being unsatisfied with sunnis answers, you tell me from your books & evidences who did what.
If it was so clear cut then why is Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) referring to ‘them’ & ‘they’ rather than specific names?
Show me proof that Ali knew exactly who did what?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on July 27, 2018, 07:02:48 PM
In politics not all is black & white.
Those who attacked the house of Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him), were not one person.
Were there those who genuinely were protesting as well as those who wanted to kill him?
Muhammed ibn Abu Bakr was amongst those who went there. But was he guilty of anything more than just demanding more equitable & just policies in the administration of the caliph?
Was he more culpable than this?
Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was caught in a hard position. Who does he punish for murder? Its said there were upto 2000 people there. Some people amongst Ali’a supporters like Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. But also those who were not obedient to Ali’s wishes as they murdered Uthman despite Hassan & Hussain protecting the house on Ali’s orders.
Everyone has an opinion when it comes to politics. With just good people on opposing sides
sometimes, in other cases a mix.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 27, 2018, 07:07:02 PM
When a Twelver raises fitna incidents after the death of Uthman, this is what my usual response to him:

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُمْ مَا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

(Abdul Haleem)
That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds.

-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 134


It got nothing to do with my iman and I won't be questioned about what had happened, for sure.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 28, 2018, 02:47:24 AM
When a Twelver raises fitna incidents after the death of Uthman, this is what my usual response to him:

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُمْ مَا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

(Abdul Haleem)
That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds.

-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 134


It got nothing to do with my iman and I won't be questioned about what had happened, for sure.

The only people raising fitna are the ones running this site and you rude boys as side kicks and cheer leaders. Don't tell me this site is all about worship and good deeds. 😀
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 28, 2018, 02:51:59 AM
In politics not all is black & white.
Those who attacked the house of Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him), were not one person.
Were there those who genuinely were protesting as well as those who wanted to kill him?
Muhammed ibn Abu Bakr was amongst those who went there. But was he guilty of anything more than just demanding more equitable & just policies in the administration of the caliph?
Was he more culpable than this?
Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was caught in a hard position. Who does he punish for murder? Its said there were upto 2000 people there. Some people amongst Ali’a supporters like Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. But also those who were not obedient to Ali’s wishes as they murdered Uthman despite Hassan & Hussain protecting the house on Ali’s orders.
Everyone has an opinion when it comes to politics. With just good people on opposing sides
sometimes, in other cases a mix.

In this case Usman really messed up, that's what it sounds like. Are you saying he really failed as Caliph and let the Muslims down by favouring his own clan (Banu Umayya) in government jobs. Well that's what he did, he helped and favoured his own. This is where Banu Umayya grew strong.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 28, 2018, 02:56:50 AM
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DmYRvk9Gxsvg&ved=2ahUKEwjUw-WGvcDcAhXBGewKHYYdCBwQwqsBMA56BAgKEAU&usg=AOvVaw1y3f0Ddac1LZnCEXrgDdjc
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 04:34:42 AM
This was a rebellion. With various factors & factions involved.
Some just looking to protest, others who murdered.
So tell me the names of who did what? Instead of asking here & being unsatisfied with sunnis answers, you tell me from your books & evidences who did what.
If it was so clear cut then why is Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) referring to ‘them’ & ‘they’ rather than specific names?
Show me proof that Ali knew exactly who did what?

My point of asking in this forum about the assassins of 'Uthman and on them being punished is because I want to know the views of Ahlul Sunnah regarding them. I already know about what we Shias believe. Requesting me to provide evidence from my books is irrelevant. I am here to learn Ahlul Sunnah's side of story surrounding 'Uthman's assassination and those involved in his murder.

If Imam Ali (a.s) did not know the rebels then why did he not say to those who requested Qisas that he does not know who is behind 'Uthman murder and he is going to start investigation to find out criminals so that they can be brought to justice.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 04:52:21 AM
In politics not all is black & white.
Those who attacked the house of Uthman (may Allah be pleased with him), were not one person.
Were there those who genuinely were protesting as well as those who wanted to kill him?
Muhammed ibn Abu Bakr was amongst those who went there. But was he guilty of anything more than just demanding more equitable & just policies in the administration of the caliph?
Was he more culpable than this?
Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) was caught in a hard position. Who does he punish for murder? Its said there were upto 2000 people there. Some people amongst Ali’a supporters like Muhammad ibn Abu Bakr. But also those who were not obedient to Ali’s wishes as they murdered Uthman despite Hassan & Hussain protecting the house on Ali’s orders.
Everyone has an opinion when it comes to politics. With just good people on opposing sides
sometimes, in other cases a mix.

This matter is of great importance because two wars within Muslims were waged on basis of taking Qisas for 'Uthman's murder. Its really strange that Companions of the Prophet (s.a.w.w) fought war with Rightful Caliph of their time for punishing unknown people?

The first course of action for any sane person would be to identity criminals with evidence and present them to Caliph so that criminals could be punished. After the criminals are proved guilty the Caliph decides not punish criminals due to filmsy excuses then it would make sense for the people to rebel against the Caliph & fight him so that he acts justly by punishing the criminals.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 04:56:34 AM
When a Twelver raises fitna incidents after the death of Uthman, this is what my usual response to him:

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُمْ مَا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

(Abdul Haleem)
That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds.

-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 134


It got nothing to do with my iman and I won't be questioned about what had happened, for sure.

I thought we all belong to same community i.e. Ummah of Mohammed (s.a.w.w).

Can you please enlighten me about the Ummah at the time of 'Uthman and Ummah at present?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 28, 2018, 07:59:26 AM
I thought we all belong to same community i.e. Ummah of Mohammed (s.a.w.w).

Can you please enlighten me about the Ummah at the time of 'Uthman and Ummah at present?

Firstly, what does "ummah" mean in the first place?

Secondly, why should I enlighten you about the ummah at the time of Uthman and present. Bottom line, will I be asked about what happened during the fitna in front of Allah?

And also, shall I remind you of another verse as well?:

مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 01:50:33 PM
Firstly, what does "ummah" mean in the first place?

Secondly, why should I enlighten you about the ummah at the time of Uthman and present. Bottom line, will I be asked about what happened during the fitna in front of Allah?

And also, shall I remind you of another verse as well?:

مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15

So it means I am right. Ummah of 'Uthman & present day Ummah is one & same - Ummah of Mohammed (s.a.w.w)  :)
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 28, 2018, 02:24:23 PM
So it means I am right. Ummah of 'Uthman & present day Ummah is one & same - Ummah of Mohammed (s.a.w.w)  :)

@Ijtaba

Oo... bacause Uthman's ummah and present day ummah are the same, we will be asked about what they did during the period of fitna after Uthman's death? Is it so?

Just want yo understand Twelvers logic here.

Don't forget to read this verse when answering that question:

مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on July 28, 2018, 03:33:16 PM
@Ijtaba

Oo... bacause Uthman's ummah and present day ummah are the same, we will be asked about what they did during the period of fitna after Uthman's death? Is it so?

Just want yo understand Twelvers logic here.

Don't forget to read this verse when answering that question:

مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15

How is this verse related to my asking about events related to assassination of 'Uthman and people involved in his assassination?

I want to learn Ahlul Sunnah's side of story regarding people involved in assassination of 'Uthman and people who rebelled against his government.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 28, 2018, 04:56:28 PM
How is this verse related to my asking about events related to assassination of 'Uthman and people involved in his assassination?

You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُمْ مَا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

(Abdul Haleem)
That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds.

-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 134


مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 28, 2018, 04:59:48 PM
You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?

تِلْكَ أُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ ۖ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَكُمْ مَا كَسَبْتُمْ ۖ وَلَا تُسْأَلُونَ عَمَّا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ

(Abdul Haleem)
That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds.

-Sura Al-Baqarah, Ayah 134


مَنِ اهْتَدَىٰ فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدِي لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا ۚ وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَىٰ ۗ

(Sahih International)
Whoever  is  guided  is  only  guided  for  [the  benefit  of]  his  soul.  And  whoever  errs  only errs  against  it.  And  no  bearer  of  burdens  will  bear  the  burden  of  another.

-Sura Al-Isra', Ayah 15

"You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?"

Yeh life does move on so please move on and cure yourselves from this anti shia sentiment. 😀
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 28, 2018, 05:22:15 PM
"You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?"

Yeh life does move on so please move on and cure yourselves from this anti shia sentiment. 😀


Err... what you guys Twelvers are preaching definitely got something to do with my iman. Unlike incidents after the death of Uthman.

Is it that hard to comprehend?
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 29, 2018, 10:01:53 AM
Err... what you guys Twelvers are preaching definitely got something to do with my iman. Unlike incidents after the death of Uthman.

Is it that hard to comprehend?

So what's it got to do with your iman?😊
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 29, 2018, 11:50:59 AM
So what's it got to do with your iman?😊

Mr. Smiley is a noob now.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 29, 2018, 01:07:13 PM
Mr. Smiley is a noob now.

Mr Smiley? You boys use more smiley faces than anyone. So are you going to tell me what's bothering or effecting your Iman? 😊 Or is this going to be another say and run for you? 😀
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 29, 2018, 02:21:09 PM
Mr Smiley? You boys use more smiley faces than anyone. So are you going to tell me what's bothering or effecting your Iman? 😊 Or is this going to be another say and run for you? 😀

Still a noob.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on July 30, 2018, 03:05:04 PM
Still a noob.

Are you? Well if you'd like to remain one then that's down to you.😊
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on July 30, 2018, 05:53:29 PM
Are you? Well if you'd like to remain one then that's down to you.😊

Haha...
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Ijtaba on August 02, 2018, 05:20:53 PM
You won't be asked in front of Allah about what had happened during the fitna after Uthman's death. What had happened, happened. Life moves on. That's all. It isn't that hard to grasp, is it?

Ok... I won't be asked. Got it. So what's the problem in knowing who was behind 'Uthman's murder and people involved in rebellion against 'Uthman and his government? Two civil wars were fought between Muslims regarding those unknown people. I just want to know who those unknown people were. Simple.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on August 03, 2018, 07:38:54 AM
Ok... I won't be asked. Got it. So what's the problem in knowing who was behind 'Uthman's murder and people involved in rebellion against 'Uthman and his government? Two civil wars were fought between Muslims regarding those unknown people. I just want to know who those unknown people were. Simple.

Remember, some sahabahs were requesting qiyas for the killers of Uthman and not the whole of protestors, not even the instigators.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on August 03, 2018, 11:54:03 AM
Remember, some sahabahs were requesting qiyas for the killers of Uthman and not the whole of protestors, not even the instigators.

Why don't you just stop playing around it and answer his questions.

This is what he asked;

"Ok... I won't be asked. Got it. So what's the problem in knowing who was behind 'Uthman's murder and people involved in rebellion against 'Uthman and his government? Two civil wars were fought between Muslims regarding those unknown people. I just want to know who those unknown people were. Simple"

Just answer and address the questions and points. Or is that too difficult? This thread has gone so long and still,

WHO KILLED USMAN AND WHY? WHO WERE THE INSTIGATORS AND WHO THE PERPETRATOR? WHAT WAS THE REASON AND PURPOSE OF HIS MURDER?

still nothing till yet.

Two wars were fought against the establishment, the ruling party, the Islamic Caliphate. Influential figures persuaded people to take up arms and fight the Islamic Caliphate, which they did and a lot of Muslim lives were lost all in the name of bringing those to justice who killed Usman.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Abu Muhammad on August 03, 2018, 12:35:47 PM
Why don't you just stop playing around it and answer his questions.

This is what he asked;

"Ok... I won't be asked. Got it. So what's the problem in knowing who was behind 'Uthman's murder and people involved in rebellion against 'Uthman and his government? Two civil wars were fought between Muslims regarding those unknown people. I just want to know who those unknown people were. Simple"

Just answer and address the questions and points. Or is that too difficult? This thread has gone so long and still,

WHO KILLED USMAN AND WHY? WHO WERE THE INSTIGATORS AND WHO THE PERPETRATOR? WHAT WAS THE REASON AND PURPOSE OF HIS MURDER?

still nothing till yet.

Two wars were fought against the establishment, the ruling party, the Islamic Caliphate. Influential figures persuaded people to take up arms and fight the Islamic Caliphate, which they did and a lot of Muslim lives were lost all in the name of bringing those to justice who killed Usman.

Are you blind? This what I wrote not too long ago:

I myself would love the hear the explanation for this event.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on August 04, 2018, 02:45:18 AM
Are you blind? This what I wrote not too long ago:

It looks like the wrong man got shot 😀
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on August 06, 2018, 11:25:05 PM
Can someone shed some light on the following

"she went to Uthman and asked for her share of inheritance from the Prophet (after so many years passed from the demise of the Prophet). Uthman refrained to give Aisha any money, and reminded her that she was one of those who counseled Abu Bakr not to pay the share of inheritance of Fatimah al-Zahra (AS). So if Fatimah does not have any share, then why should she? Hearing this, Aisha became very angry at Uthman, and came out and said to the people:

“Kill this old fool (Na’thal), for he is unbeliever.”

Sunni references:

History of Ibn al-Athir, v3, p206
Lisan al-Arab, v14, p141
al-Iqd al-Farid, v4, p290
Sharh Ibn Abil Hadid, v16, pp 220-223.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: al-kulayni on August 07, 2018, 01:34:52 PM
Can someone shed some light on the following

"she went to Uthman and asked for her share of inheritance from the Prophet (after so many years passed from the demise of the Prophet). Uthman refrained to give Aisha any money, and reminded her that she was one of those who counseled Abu Bakr not to pay the share of inheritance of Fatimah al-Zahra (AS). So if Fatimah does not have any share, then why should she? Hearing this, Aisha became very angry at Uthman, and came out and said to the people:

“Kill this old fool (Na’thal), for he is unbeliever.”

Sunni references:

History of Ibn al-Athir, v3, p206
Lisan al-Arab, v14, p141
al-Iqd al-Farid, v4, p290
Sharh Ibn Abil Hadid, v16, pp 220-223.

Assalamu Aleykum,

This accusation was refuted : http://www.chiite.fr/en/rebbutal_03.html
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: al-kulayni on August 07, 2018, 01:35:46 PM
You can reda this article too : https://alsonnah.wordpress.com/2013/10/06/was-sayyidah-aisha-bint-abi-bakr-ra-involved-in-the-murder-of-uthman-ra/

Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: al-kulayni on August 07, 2018, 01:37:33 PM
This article : http://mahajjah.com/refuting-tijanis-criticisms-of-the-third-khalifah-uthman-ibn-affan/
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: al-kulayni on August 07, 2018, 01:37:58 PM
Or this one : https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/11/15/1582/
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 07, 2018, 03:04:47 PM
I’ve said it before and here is the proof........wasteman uses unauthentic evidences and passes it off as authentic.

Thankyou wasteman for proving my point, alhamdulillah👍
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on August 07, 2018, 06:06:46 PM
I’ve said it before and here is the proof........wasteman uses unauthentic evidences and passes it off as authentic.

Thankyou wasteman for proving my point, alhamdulillah👍

I never said it was authentic. All I've done is put forward material and want to discuss it. That's all. If you think it's unauthentic then tell us why. Discuss it. Put this personal crap aside.
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on August 07, 2018, 06:11:38 PM
Or this one : https://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/11/15/1582/

Many thanks. That's all I was asking and looking for, a positive and constructive response. The other side of the story. Mythbuster, learn and grow up and out of sarcasm, childish behaviour and getting personal. 😊
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 08, 2018, 04:33:44 PM
Many thanks. That's all I was asking and looking for, a positive and constructive response. The other side of the story. Mythbuster, learn and grow up and out of sarcasm, childish behaviour and getting personal. 😊

You deserve all you get mate, you’re not here to learn but just to argue stupid man made ideas by using false information by copy pasting and acting arrogantly with your posts........I know you ameen 😉
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on August 10, 2018, 09:40:37 AM
You deserve all you get mate, you’re not here to learn but just to argue stupid man made ideas by using false information by copy pasting and acting arrogantly with your posts........I know you ameen 😉

Don't hide your absurd attitude, I'll manners and childish behaviour behind 'you deserve all you get mate'. You're the one who's constantly arguing. You don't know me. To know someone you need to learn about them by getting to know them. 
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 11, 2018, 07:23:29 PM
Don't hide your absurd attitude, I'll manners and childish behaviour behind 'you deserve all you get mate'. You're the one who's constantly arguing. You don't know me. To know someone you need to learn about them by getting to know them. 

I know you enough ameen.......you really do deserve it👍
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on August 11, 2018, 07:29:18 PM
I know you enough ameen.......you really do deserve it👍

You want to accuse then you also have to prove it. 😊 And amen to you as well 😊
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 12, 2018, 03:10:52 PM
You want to accuse then you also have to prove it. 😊 And amen to you as well 😊

Don’t need to prove anything it clearly shows unlike your verses for divine imamate😜
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on August 13, 2018, 09:50:01 AM
Don’t need to prove anything it clearly shows unlike your verses for divine imamate😜

If you want to remain ignorant then that's up to you. 😊
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: Mythbuster1 on August 13, 2018, 11:55:55 AM
If you want to remain ignorant then that's up to you. 😊

You have no answer so it’s time to call people ignorant because you cannot move forward and you are stuck in your false interpretation of Verses.😉👍
Title: Re: `Ali and `Uthman in Nahj al-Balaghah
Post by: iceman on August 22, 2018, 01:22:02 PM
You have no answer so it’s time to call people ignorant because you cannot move forward and you are stuck in your false interpretation of Verses.😉👍

You just don't want to accept. I know why, Saqifa goes straight out of the window along with everything else your belief stands on. 😊