Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA

[Hadrami]

lets just lock this thread. The aim for this topic is to provide proofs to Ameen that SHIA SCHOLARS alsp believed in this marriage.

In the end Ameen cant deny the fact that those shia scholars believed in it, that is why he then asked why those scholars did believe this happened (see reply #49)

I think the thread is long enough Hani

[Ameen]

Shia scholars have difference in thought, opinion and point of view, just as Sunni scholars do.

Do you believe in every single thing that every single scholar says???

If you believe in something then that is fine. That's down to you. But if you want me to believe in it then, you have to convince me.

This is not enough that so and so of your scholars also believe in it. They have to tell us why they believe in it.

Do they believe in it??? If yes then why and how??? Or did they just mention it in their books???

I have a right to question and quiz you on your faith and belief, just as you have the right towards me.

[Ameen]

My dear brother Hani, for you it has always been about victory and defeat, win or lose.

This is something you believe in and should brag about. For me, it's just reality and facts.

You mention this Ayatullah and other references, where does it say that he believes in this???

There are a lot of things these and other Ayatullahs have mentioned but you don't consider them.

There are many things that your scholars have said but you don't believe in them.

In Sehih Sitha there are many things which you consider weak and unreliable but those books are still considered and seen as reliable.

This is what this Ayatullah says. Am I not suppose to question it?

[Husayn]

Ameen - don't worry about what Shii scholars believe (because you will not get a straight answer from your sect).

What do you believe?

Did 'Ali (ra) give Umm Kulthum to 'Umar (ra) or not?

[Ameen]

As for straight answers are concerned, i haven't got one out of you lot either. Those who believe that this marriage took place, can they tell me why they believe in this??? What is the reason for them to believe as such??? Or is it just a random belief???

Do you believe in it because it can be used as a good counter argument against those who believe that Fatimah got injured by Umar???

And the only justification is that a handful of Shia scholars have mentioned it in their books???

Do the vast majority of the Shia scholars believe in this??? Or do we disregard the vast majority and go with the minority because it suits our purpose???

Or is there ground breaking evidence based on reality and facts that this marriage most certainly took place???

Umme Kulsoom was only 14 years old when Umar died at the age of 67. So when exactly did this marriage take place???

Or is it a crime to ask questions concerning this and just accept it at random or blindly???

It's ok to keep yapping on about Imamath and asking questions about that in great detail and to extreme length. But not here.

[Furkan]

-_-

[Hani]

Subhan-Allah, truly his creations are wondrous
 

[Furkan]

Ameen, If a khawarij says  "Fatima never married Ali" what will your response be?

[Khaled]

It's ok to keep yapping on about Imamath and asking questions about that in great detail and to extreme length. But not here.

Well one is a fundamental of your religion and one is a historical incident.

Also, may Allah guide us to what He loves and approve of, your style of rhetoric is self-defeating.  We presented you with the majority of Shi'a scholars and what they say about this issue, and your response was, "Do you just believer everything a scholar say?"  Imagine if you presented something that was found in Sunni and Shi'a books, such as the report on Ghadeer, and our response to you was, "Do you just believe everything that is found in books?  Do you believe it just because a scholar say it?  Do you believe it just because it goes against the other view?"  You wouldn't consider that a very academic argument now would you?

[Ameen]

Ok brother Furkan, the marriage of Ali to Fatimah is a well known, proven and accepted by all, historical fact in history, just as the marriage of Khateeja, Aisha or Hifza to the Messenger (pbuh).

The marriage of Ali's daughter to Umar is something that is metioned in a few books and is only brought to the surface and spoken about as aCounter argument.

[Furkan]

Ok brother Ameen, the marriage of Ali to Fatimah is a well known, proven and accepted by all, historical fact in history, just as the marriage of Khateeja, Aisha or Hifza to the Messenger (pbuh) INDEED

The marriage of Ali's daughter to Umar is something that is metioned in all books and is only denied by today's shia scholars based on aql and hawa. Their arguments based on aql are related to the ages of Umar and Umm kulthoum and saying that they could never marry each other bla bla. But shia scholars use wrong dates haha.

[Ameen]

Ok brother Ameen, the marriage of Ali to Fatimah is a well known, proven and accepted by all, historical fact in history, just as the marriage of Khateeja, Aisha or Hifza to the Messenger (pbuh) INDEED

The marriage of Ali's daughter to Umar is something that is metioned in all books and is only denied by today's shia scholars based on aql and hawa. Their arguments based on aql are related to the ages of Umar and Umm kulthoum and saying that they could never marry each other bla bla. But shia scholars use wrong dates haha.

The marriage of Ali's daughter to Umar is not mentioned in all books but lets go with your argument that it is. This is also mentioned in the books that Umar carried out those threats and went a head with a raid on Fatimah's house in which she got injured. But you don't believe in this, do you???

The disagreement on and regarding Sakeefa was there, the disappointment on how Sakeefa was conducted and the disturbance among both groups (Hizb e Iktedar and Hizb e Ikhtelaf) was there, threats were made by Umar to Hizb e Ikhtelaf to stop opposing the decision in Sakeefa and to comply with it, otherwise force will be used, the base is there but you refuse to accept that these threats were carried out. You refuse to believe that the raid on Fatimah's house went ahead. This is also mentioned in the books, along with many other things, so why don't you believe in this as well??? Or do you pick and choose your belief, as you go along???

First this statement is wrong that majority of the Shias believe that this marriage took place. The majority Shia don't believe because reality and facts aren't there. Also some Sunnis don't believe in this either due to the same reason that, it doesn't make any sense, since there is no comparison, there is no match.

All I am getting from you is hahaha and hehehe, nothing constructive. Umar was 67 when he died and she was just 14 at the time. So when did the wedding bells exactly wring??? This is what you need to comment on. Work with me rather than against me.

[Ameen]

Brother Furkan, Aqal is what I have brought in. When did this marriage take place??? Where did this marriage take place??? What were the ages of the two??? Who read the nikkah??? All important questions based on Aqal along with reality and facts.

Why is Umar mentioned in this marriage??? Why not Abu Bakar or Usman??? Why not Talah or Zubair??? Why Umar??? Coincidence, isn't it??? The man (Umar) who is accused of carrying out the raid on Fatimah's house, the one (Umar) who is accused of injuring Fatimah, is mentioned in this marriage but not anyone else. Doesn't this tell you something??? May be this marriage has been invented out of the wind to use as a counter argument to,

"If Umar injured Fatimah, if Umar was a bad man then, why did Ali marry his daughter to him",

The one accused in history books is mentioned in this marriage. What a coincidence!

Also the references brother Hani gave me, he said at the beginning that these scholars have mentioned this marriage in their books. The word"mention" has been used.

[Hani]

An event doesn't need to be "mentioned in all books" so that it may be authentic. Look Ameen, let me summarize all this BS for you, what makes a narration authentic is the chain of transmission, the Isnad, have you heard of this word before or not?

MEANING, if several reliable narrators tell us that this event took place, THAT MEANS IT DID TAKE PLACE.

Agreed or not?

[Hani]

Brother Furkan, Aqal is what I have brought in. When did this marriage take place??? Where did this marriage take place??? What were the ages of the two??? Who read the nikkah??? All important questions based on Aqal along with reality and facts.

If you want to ask unnecessary question then I will force you to answer these same exact questions for your 10th Imam and his wife, and if you can't prove they're married then you have to reject your 11th Imam al-`Askari publicly.

We will not accept anything less from you.

[Hani]

If anyone other than Ameen posts under this, I will delete it.

[Ameen]

An event doesn't need to be "mentioned in all books" so that it may be authentic. Look Ameen, let me summarize all this BS for you, what makes a narration authentic is the chain of transmission, the Isnad, have you heard of this word before or not?

MEANING, if several reliable narrators tell us that this event took place, THAT MEANS IT DID TAKE PLACE.

Agreed or not?

I asked you this before and I will ask you again, what is your criteria and procedure in the selection of narrators??? How do you choose who are reliable and who aren't??? How do you go about doing this??? Do you have a standard in advance or do you look at what is being said and then decide on the reliability? For example anything that goes against any of your desired companions or your belief and faith would be unreliable???

[Ameen]

Brother Furkan, Aqal is what I have brought in. When did this marriage take place??? Where did this marriage take place??? What were the ages of the two??? Who read the nikkah??? All important questions based on Aqal along with reality and facts.

If you want to ask unnecessary question then I will force you to answer these same exact questions for your 10th Imam and his wife, and if you can't prove they're married then you have to reject your 11th Imam al-`Askari publicly.

We will not accept anything less from you.

If you can't answer then say so. Don't call the questions unnecessary or hide behind a counter argument. This was said to me that if Umar was a bad person then why did Ali marry his daughter to him. Those who believe in this have a right to believe in what they want. But those who want me to accept this have to convince me by coming up with something reliable. The questions I have asked are important and connected to the event.

If you went to a function and told me about it and I asked you questions about that function, basic questions and you failed to answer a single one then, that means you didn't attend that function or the function did't take place. It's either one or the other.

Here you are telling me about a marriage with no head or tail. A marriage which is disputed whether it took place or not. All you have is that it was mentioned in certain books. Well a lot of things have been mentioned in the books but you deny they ever took place. But they are mentioned in the books.

[Ameen]

Brother Furkan, Aqal is what I have brought in. When did this marriage take place??? Where did this marriage take place??? What were the ages of the two??? Who read the nikkah??? All important questions based on Aqal along with reality and facts.

If you want to ask unnecessary question then I will force you to answer these same exact questions for your 10th Imam and his wife, and if you can't prove they're married then you have to reject your 11th Imam al-`Askari publicly.

We will not accept anything less from you.

You will not accept anything less from me??? My friend the burden of proof lies upon you. You haven't delivered anything till yet. Not a single thing and you hide behind counter arguments. You want to cross question and save yourself this way??? That is no faith!

[Hani]

I asked you this before and I will ask you again, what is your criteria and procedure in the selection of narrators??? How do you choose who are reliable and who aren't??? How do you go about doing this??? Do you have a standard in advance or do you look at what is being said and then decide on the reliability? For example anything that goes against any of your desired companions or your belief and faith would be unreliable???

The narrators who are reliable are not a bunch whom I choose randomly, rather they are narrators that have been deemed as reliable in transmission, good in memory and piety by the Imams who are experts in the science of Rijal in their early books.

It is in no way a matter of desire and if you wish I can break-up the chain of transmission for the desired reports and quote to you, scientific authentication by the Imams of Hadith to those narrators and their narration.

Do you disagree with this method?

Here you are telling me about a marriage with no head or tail. A marriage which is disputed whether it took place or not. All you have is that it was mentioned in certain books. Well a lot of things have been mentioned in the books but you deny they ever took place. But they are mentioned in the books.

NO, I do not tell you I believe in it simply because it is mentioned in some books. Rather because of the following:

1- It was mentioned by a great amount of sources (As I illustrated in a previous post).

2- It was mentioned in Sunni sources with authentic chains of transmission.

3- It was mentioned in Shia sources with authentic chains of transmission.

4- The early Shia scholars are not known to have rejected this such as Tusi, Kulayni and Murtada.

The above is sufficient to accept any historical event.

If you can't answer then say so. Don't call the questions unnecessary or hide behind a counter argument.

I believe they are useless, and are not a condition to prove the marriage simply because they are details.

In fact, we have answered some of them previously, you said:

"When did this marriage take place??? Where did this marriage take place??? What were the ages of the two??? Who read the nikkah???"

We answered as I recall that the marriage took place at 17AH, and it happened in Madinah as they all lived there, and Umm Kulthoum's age was 11 as we previously stated because she was born in 6AH, as for who read the Nikah I don't know, `Umar asked `Ali for his daughter, `Ali sent her with Hasan and Husayn, she went to `Umar and he liked her and married her.

Now as I said, it is your turn to answer these same questions about your 10th Imam, if you cannot than I will deny his marriage and you must do that too, since this is your method so apply it to yourself before you apply it to others. I believe you are not able to answer these questions, so I await for you to renounce Twelver faith since your last 2 Imams were never born.