Ali RA gave his daughter to Umar RA

[Hani]

Ameen, also please don't forget answering these simple questions to establish that your 10th Imam married the mother of your 11th Imam.

Firstly Ameen, let's say I ask you these same questions about the wife of your 10th Imam, when did `Ali al-Hadi marry her? Who were the witnesses? What was the dowry? Who read the Nikah? What was the age of al-Hadi and his wife at the time of marriage?

Can I conclude that your 11th Imam is never born since we don't know these details?

If you don't answer, then you're admitting your eleventh Imam doesn't exist since could not have been born if his mother never married his father.

[Ameen]

Brother AbuMuslimKhorasani, this is what brother Hani said,

"Here's the names of some of the Sunni and Shia scholars who mentioned this marriage",

The word "mention" has been  used. Accepting and or believing in something is one thing, just mentioning and or recording something is another.

You said,

"They didn't just mention, they also believed in it. Read the references properly",

Where does it say that they believed in this and where have they discussed it, why they believe in it??? Surely if you believe in something and you want to convince others or you just even want others to know why you believe in this, you will put forward explanations and reasoning. Where do we see this in the references??? Would you like to show and explain to me??? Many thanks in advance!

What was the ages of Umar and Kulsoom when they got married??? The reason why I keep repeating this is because no references have been given for their ages. If they have then please enlighten me!

You said,

"Next, you are gonna ask what food was prepared? Was it salty? How many guests were invited? What were names of each guest? How many of them were kids and adults?",

Now you are being childish.

[Ameen]

Ameen, also please don't forget answering these simple questions to establish that your 10th Imam married the mother of your 11th Imam.

Firstly Ameen, let's say I ask you these same questions about the wife of your 10th Imam, when did `Ali al-Hadi marry her? Who were the witnesses? What was the dowry? Who read the Nikah? What was the age of al-Hadi and his wife at the time of marriage?

Can I conclude that your 11th Imam is never born since we don't know these details?

If you don't answer, then you're admitting your eleventh Imam doesn't exist since could not have been born if his mother never married his father.

Brother firstly you are very quick to mention what is off topic and to start a separate thread for that, so what is happening here??? Why the double standards???

Secondly why do you always look for excuses and come up with counter arguments??? If you can't answer and or justify something then be a man and admit it, rather than looking for excuse and counter arguments. And then, only then and by all means start a thread and ask.

I didn't say anything abouth the 12th Imam and or his mother. You gentlemen mentioned and put forward that Ali married his daughter to Umar and I was asked, why did my first Imam marry his daughter to Umar, if Umar was a bad person.

And my response was, I don't believe this marriage took place. You do, so bring evidence forward and explain and justify yourselves, which you have miserably failed. All I am getting is counter arguments, twist and turns and excuses in return.

[Ameen]

Brother Hani you said,

"If you don't answer, then you're admitting your eleventh Imam doesn't exist since could not have been born if his mother never married his father",

Is this the same as and does this also apply to those matters which you didn't or couldn't answer???

Example;

The situation of Fadak where I asked you to provide me with clear cut evidence of how and by what and which financial means did Abu Bakar run government??? Where did the income come from and how did he generate that income???

This is where the discussion came to an halt and you blocked the thread to save your skin. You have locked other threads because of similar reasons.

[Ameen]

Brother Hani you said,

"If you don't answer, then you're admitting your eleventh Imam doesn't exist since could not have been born if his mother never married his father",

Is this the same as and does this also apply to those matters which you didn't or couldn't answer???

Example;

The situation of Fadak where I asked you to provide me with clear cut evidence of how and by what and which financial means did Abu Bakar run government??? Where did the income come from and how did he generate that income???

This is where the discussion came to an halt and you blocked the thread to save your skin. You have locked other threads because of similar reasons.

[Hani]

^ Dude you're preposterous, go annoy someone else.

[MuslimK]

Ignore this guy.

He asks: why shia scholars believe in it (Marriage of Umm Kulthum with Umar)?.

[Ameen]

^ Dude you're preposterous, go annoy someone else.

Really??? So tell me, do you do Dawa??? How do you do it??? With such attitude and behaviour you will turn people away from Islam rather than towards it.

[Hani]

^ Dude you're preposterous, go annoy someone else.

Really??? So tell me, do you do Dawa??? How do you do it??? With such attitude and behaviour you will turn people away from Islam rather than towards it.

ppl who wish to be guided won't argue for the sake of arguing and cling to straws. they admit when they are wrong.

[Ameen]

Ignore this guy.

He asks: why shia scholars believe in it (Marriage of Umm Kulthum with Umar)?.

Well you have finally got it. What took you so long. I am asking why do you or anyone else believe that this marriage took place. You believe in it just because certain scholars say so??? There are a lot of other things the scholars say and believe in but you question that with no ending, just like Imamath, Fatimah getting injured, Fadak and everything else. You come out just as the same as me when it concerns these matters but when I ask you or apply the same principal to you then, "Dude you're preposterous, go annoy someone else" and "just ignore this guy" etc. what nonsense is this???

[Ameen]

^ Dude you're preposterous, go annoy someone else.

Really??? So tell me, do you do Dawa??? How do you do it??? With such attitude and behaviour you will turn people away from Islam rather than towards it.

ppl who wish to be guided won't argue for the sake of arguing and cling to straws. they admit when they are wrong.

Do you admit when you are wrong??? Or are you going to claim that you are always right??? What you have said is nice but try believing in it and applying it on to yourself. You are totally the opposite of what you have said.

[Ameen]

Gentlemen, lets work on this together. Umar died 644 AD. Ummeh Kulsoom (daughter of Fatimah) was born 630 AD. Basically she was 14 years old when Umar died at the age of 67.

Fatimah was born 604 and she got married 623 AD. Basically Fatimah was 19 when she got married. Umar did ask Fatimah's hand in marriage and he was told she is too young but Fatimah's 4th child, Ummeh Kulsoom was old enough for Ali to marry her to Umar.

Gentlemen how accurate are these dates and there are a lot of questions that need to be answered. But here is something for you to work on, since you were too shy to put anything forward.

Did this marriage really take place??? Or was this fairy tale wedding just created out of the wind as a counter argument for certain people to use as such,

"Well if Fatimah really got injured by Umar then why did Ali marry his daughter to him".

[Hani]

Do you admit when you are wrong??? Or are you going to claim that you are always right??? What you have said is nice but try believing in it and applying it on to yourself. You are totally the opposite of what you have said.

Enjoy answering your own questions wise guru.

[Ameen]

Do you admit when you are wrong??? Or are you going to claim that you are always right??? What you have said is nice but try believing in it and applying it on to yourself. You are totally the opposite of what you have said.

Enjoy answering your own questions wise guru.

Is this all you have??? You create a forum to expose Shiaism and their beliefs??? And you make constant claims to to attract intelligent and knowledgeable Shias to come and discuss/debate with you? What do you have??? What have you got???

[Hani]

We're asking for intelligent ones because we don't want to waste time on un-intelligent ones.

[Ameen]

We're asking for intelligent ones because we don't want to waste time on un-intelligent ones.

What kind of intelligent ones do you have in mind??? When or if you do Dawa, do you also look for intelligent and knowledgeable non believers??? You waste time because you don't have anything. You're all talk and that's just about it.

[Hani]

Well boohoo! Hey since you just defeated me in debate, why not open this topic on ShiaChat and brag about your victory? make sure to include a link!! We want the whole world to see this thread.

[MuslimK]

Did this marriage really take place???

Yes, it did take place. Evidences have been presented to you but you failed to discuss them. Instead you started asking silly questions.  I know it is hard for you to digest the fact that Umm Kulthum bint Ali married Amir al-Muminin Omar.

The audience and viewers are laughing at you.

[Hani]

Look at what Ayatullah al-Jawahiri says in his book al-Jawahir:

عن عمار بن ياسر: أخرجت جنازة أم كلثوم وابنها زيد بن عمر ومعها الحسنان وابن عباس وعبد الله بن عمر وأبو هريرة ، فوضعوا جنازة الغلام مما يلي الإمام والمرأة وراءه ، وقالوا : هذا هو السنة

[`Ammar bin Yasir narrated: The Janazah of Umm Kulthoum and her son Zayd ibn `Umar was brought out and those who walked in it were Hasan, Husayn, ibn `Abbas, ibn `Umar and abu Hurayrah, and they placed the boy in front of the Imam (of prayer) and the woman behind him. Then they said: "This is the Sunnah."]

So what was Ayatullah al-Jawahiri talking about here? Who is this Zayd ibn `Umar, the son of Umm Kulthoum?

[Furkan]

Ameen be like:

Who was this imam of the prayer? How old was he? Why did Umm kulthoum and Zayd bin Umar die?

Those are all questions we should ponder over. Get your facts straight, without its and bits. Mentioning an incident doesn't mean the ayatullah believes in it, even if there are tons of ayatollahs mentioning this.