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Did Ali permit mutah?

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zaid_ibn_ali

Did Ali permit mutah?
« on: January 06, 2018, 01:01:00 PM »
Is there any historical proof thar Ali permitted mutah during his rule?

iceman

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 03:24:52 PM »
Is there any historical proof thar Ali permitted mutah during his rule?

The Prophet (s) did. But no one has a clue why he prohibited it. 😊 No one has the faintest😀

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2018, 07:16:39 PM »
The topic is during Ali’s rules. Sunni, Zaydi & Ismaili all agree that Ali narrated the prohibition of mutah.
So I would like to know if there are any historicals accounts during Ali’s rule which contradict this.

So far I have found none.

simplemuslim

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 01:16:36 AM »
Is there any historical proof thar Ali permitted mutah during his rule?

Muta was never banned by Allah and His Messenger in the first place. Therfore, there was no need to re-instate a practice that was always allowed.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2018, 01:59:03 AM »
Muta was never banned by Allah and His Messenger in the first place. Therfore, there was no need to re-instate a practice that was always allowed.

According to twelvers Umar banned it. So if the previous ruler banned it then surely Ali being the current ruler would reinstate it if he supported it?

Even if he didn’t need to reinstate it, my question was is there any proof he permitted it during his rule?

Did he practice it, or any of his close companions or family?

Or any record of mutah occuring under his rule & him allowing it?

Rationalist

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2018, 02:02:33 AM »
The Abbasids were Shia at one time, and settled into Kufa. At this time the Imams Al Baqer and Al Sadiq were still in Madina. In reality, the 12er Shia fiqh is closer to the Abbasids fiqh than the fiqh of the household.

Rationalist

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2018, 02:03:47 AM »
I've been told the Abbasid calipah Al Mamoon allowed Muta.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2018, 02:08:30 AM »
Muta was never banned by Allah and His Messenger in the first place. Therfore, there was no need to re-instate a practice that was always allowed.

In Al-Istibsar by Al-Tusi (p. 689) from Mohammad bin Ahmad bin Yahya from Abi Al-Jawza’a from Al-Hussain bin Ulwan from Amr bin Khalid from Zaid bin Ali from his fathers from Ali (peace be upon him) that he said, "The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) forbade the meat of the domestic donkey and mutah marriages"

Rationalist

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2018, 02:18:59 AM »
In Al-Istibsar by Al-Tusi (p. 689) from Mohammad bin Ahmad bin Yahya from Abi Al-Jawza’a from Al-Hussain bin Ulwan from Amr bin Khalid from Zaid bin Ali from his fathers from Ali (peace be upon him) that he said, "The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) forbade the meat of the domestic donkey and mutah marriages"

Shaykh Tusi accepted this narration and said it was under taqqiyah. Strange later the Abbasids opened it up again.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2018, 01:09:08 PM »
Still waiting for proof that Ali’s opinion on mutah was different to Umar’s.


simplemuslim

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 01:16:14 AM »
In Al-Istibsar by Al-Tusi (p. 689) from Mohammad bin Ahmad bin Yahya from Abi Al-Jawza’a from Al-Hussain bin Ulwan from Amr bin Khalid from Zaid bin Ali from his fathers from Ali (peace be upon him) that he said, "The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) forbade the meat of the domestic donkey and mutah marriages"

Yes this was during khaibar. However, that was a temporary ban even according to sunnis.

simplemuslim

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2018, 01:21:23 AM »
Still waiting for proof that Ali’s opinion on mutah was different to Umar’s.

Like I said,  there was nothng to un-ban because the holy Prophet (s) never banned it. Therefore the shias of Ali continued to practice what is allowed by Allah and His Messenger and keep away from what they forbade. Following Umar’s sunnah is binding upon you. Not for us.

Hadrami

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2018, 05:59:21 AM »
In Al-Istibsar by Al-Tusi (p. 689) from Mohammad bin Ahmad bin Yahya from Abi Al-Jawza’a from Al-Hussain bin Ulwan from Amr bin Khalid from Zaid bin Ali from his fathers from Ali (peace be upon him) that he said, "The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) forbade the meat of the domestic donkey and mutah marriages"
Easy answer from any shia

TAQIYYA!!!! 😂

Rationalist

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2018, 06:09:43 AM »
Like I said,  there was nothng to un-ban because the holy Prophet (s) never banned it. Therefore the shias of Ali continued to practice what is allowed by Allah and His Messenger and keep away from what they forbade. Following Umar’s sunnah is binding upon you. Not for us.

Which Shia of Ali practiced Muta in the time of Ali life? Was it Salman? Abu Dharr? Miqdad? Ammar? Bilal?

simplemuslim

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2018, 01:01:28 PM »
Saeed bin Jubair was a taba'i and a trustworthy scholar of fiqh.

Let's see what ibn kathir said about him

سعيد بن جبير الأسدي
الوالي مولاهم أبو محمد، ويقال أبو عبد الله، الكوفي المكي من أكابر أصحاب ابن عباس، كان من أئمة الإسلام في التفسير والفقه وأنواع العلوم وكثرة العمل الصالح، رحمه الله، وقد رأى خلقا من الصحابة، وروى عن جماعة منهم، وعنه خلق من التابعين، يقال إنه كان يقرأ القرآن في الصلاة فيما بين المغرب والعشاء ختمة تامة، وكان يقعد في الكعبة القعدة فيقرأ فيها الختمة، وربما قرأها في ركعة في جوف الكعبة، وروي عنه أنه ختم القرآن مرتين ونصفا في الصلاة في ليلة في الكعبة، وقال سفيان الثوري: عن عمرو بن ميمون، عن أبيه، قال: لقد مات سعيد بن جبير وما على وجه الأرض أحد إلا وهو محتاج إلى علمه.

Saeed bin Jubair, One of the great companions of Ibn Abbas, he was an Imam of Islam in Tafsir, Fiqh, and many types of knowledge. He did a lot of good deeds. May Allah have mercy on him. He saw many amongst sahaba and narrated from a group of them; and a lot of tabaeen narrated from him. Sufain thori said that Amr bin Maimoon from his father who said: When he died, there was none on Earth’s face who was not in need of him for knowledge

Yet this great taba'i scholar of yours did Muta. What do you have to say about that?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 01:03:36 PM by simplemuslim »

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2018, 04:48:07 PM »
Yes this was during khaibar. However, that was a temporary ban even according to sunnis.

Oh so you’re acknowledging that the Prophet SAW did ban it at one point.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 04:51:10 PM »
Saeed bin Jubair was a taba'i and a trustworthy scholar of fiqh.

Let's see what ibn kathir said about him

سعيد بن جبير الأسدي
الوالي مولاهم أبو محمد، ويقال أبو عبد الله، الكوفي المكي من أكابر أصحاب ابن عباس، كان من أئمة الإسلام في التفسير والفقه وأنواع العلوم وكثرة العمل الصالح، رحمه الله، وقد رأى خلقا من الصحابة، وروى عن جماعة منهم، وعنه خلق من التابعين، يقال إنه كان يقرأ القرآن في الصلاة فيما بين المغرب والعشاء ختمة تامة، وكان يقعد في الكعبة القعدة فيقرأ فيها الختمة، وربما قرأها في ركعة في جوف الكعبة، وروي عنه أنه ختم القرآن مرتين ونصفا في الصلاة في ليلة في الكعبة، وقال سفيان الثوري: عن عمرو بن ميمون، عن أبيه، قال: لقد مات سعيد بن جبير وما على وجه الأرض أحد إلا وهو محتاج إلى علمه.

Saeed bin Jubair, One of the great companions of Ibn Abbas, he was an Imam of Islam in Tafsir, Fiqh, and many types of knowledge. He did a lot of good deeds. May Allah have mercy on him. He saw many amongst sahaba and narrated from a group of them; and a lot of tabaeen narrated from him. Sufain thori said that Amr bin Maimoon from his father who said: When he died, there was none on Earth’s face who was not in need of him for knowledge

Yet this great taba'i scholar of yours did Muta. What do you have to say about that?

He was a student of Ibn Abbas right? So he most likely was influenced by him.

But the topic is Ali permitting it. We have evidences in sunni, zaydi, ismaili & even a twelver source where Ali narrares it was forbidden.

But so far no proof that he allowed it either through a narration or historical evidence.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2018, 04:54:43 PM »
The Prophet (s) did. But no one has a clue why he prohibited it. 😊 No one has the faintest😀

A report from a twelver source (tusi) has been provided. Simplemuslim accepted it & says it was temporary but happened nevertheless. Maybe you should ask him & your shia scholars about this report?


simplemuslim

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2018, 09:40:48 PM »
Oh so you’re acknowledging that the Prophet SAW did ban it at one point.

Yes, this was a temporary ban only during the battle of khaibar according to Sunni sources. The ban was then lifted after the battle. A key point to be noted here is that it was not made haram. Only restricted for a certain time due to the situation I have just mentioned. Like the ban on garlic in certain situations as mentioned in Bukhari.

simplemuslim

Re: Did Ali permit mutah?
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2018, 09:52:07 PM »
In Al-Istibsar by Al-Tusi (p. 689) from Mohammad bin Ahmad bin Yahya from Abi Al-Jawza’a from Al-Hussain bin Ulwan from Amr bin Khalid from Zaid bin Ali from his fathers from Ali (peace be upon him) that he said, "The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) forbade the meat of the domestic donkey and mutah marriages"

Brother, this narration is Shadh, which is basically a type of weak narration. Why don't you quote in full what sheikh Tusi had to say about this narration?

So let's see what was the opinion of tusi as mentioned in al-istibsaar:


5 فأما ما رواه محمد بن أحمد بن يحيى عن أبي الجوزا عن الحسين بن علوان عن عمرو بن خالد عن زيد بن علي عن آبائه عن علي (عل) قال: حرم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله لحوم الحمر الاهلية ونكاح المتعة.

فالوجه في هذه الرواية أن نحملها على التقية لانها موافقة لمذاهب العامة والاخبار الاولة موافقة لظاهر الكتاب وإجماع الفرقة المحقة على موجبها فيجب أن يكون العمل بها دون هذه الرواية الشاذة.

[al-istibsaar, vol 3, page 551]

and for this reason in this narration, we should understand this hadith as being upon taqiyya as it is in agreement with the madhab of aama (sunnis) whereas the hadiths before are in agreement with what comes from of the Book and Ijma` of the true sect, so one must act in accordance with them, and not this “shadh” narration.



This deception on this website by some of the brothers who cherry pick quotes and feed them to the less knowledgeable brothers must stop.

 

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