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Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?

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zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 11:07:02 PM »
Again, another poor excuse. Here is the reasons why:

It does not matter whether it was in extreme case or not. Did the Prophet (s) say (according to sunni books) that it was allowed in extreme cases? So your argument fails here.

You said it is a fiqh matter. How can it be Fiqhi matter against a clear-cut command (according to sunni books) of the holy prophet (s)?

You said "There’s always cases where one scholar holds an odd view against the majority opinion on that particular matter. "

I say: This isn't one scholar holding a view over the majority of other scholars. That would be understandable. This is one scholar holding a view OVER the messenger of Allah's clear explicit command!

Am sorry but these excuses are poor so far to my questions. I believe any fair-minded brother can see this.

You seem very ignorant of fiqh!

The brothers have explained that he saw it as being general rather than to include extreme circumstances too.

The reports clearly show ibn abbas only deemed it permissible in extreme cases.

Its not that he disobeyed a clear report, rather he midunderstood it.





simplemuslim

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2018, 11:16:31 PM »
Your main arguments have been answered in reply 16.

Well, I beg to differ brother. For example, in your reply 16 you suggested that ibn abbas believed in muta in extreme case like eating of the swine etc....

My response is: The eating of the swine is permissible in extreme cases and is allowed because your life can depend on it. If you are starving and there is only the pig and if you don't eat, you can die.

I ask, how is this comparable with Mutah in extreme cases? I mean have you heard of anyone who has died due to lack of sex? lol

Come on brother, think about what you write and read your own posts carefully. I think I have had enough to say on this matter. No more rebuttals would be required because, quite frankly, I am disappointed with the arguments.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2018, 11:21:33 PM »
Well, I beg to differ brother. For example, in your reply 16 you suggested that ibn abbas believed in muta in extreme case like eating of the swine etc....

My response is: The eating of the swine is permissible in extreme cases and is allowed because your life can depend on it. If you are starving and there is only the pig and if you don't eat, you can die.

I ask, how is this comparable with Mutah in extreme cases? I mean have you heard of anyone who has died due to lack of sex? lol

Come on brother, think about what you write and read your own posts carefully. I think I have had enough to say on this matter. No more rebuttals would be required because, quite frankly, I am disappointed with the arguments.

Does your ignorance have any bounds?

So the only extreme case in any fiqh matter is if anyone is in fear of dying?

Khaled

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2018, 11:25:46 PM »
I ask, how is this comparable with Mutah in extreme cases? I mean have you heard of anyone who has died due to lack of sex? lol

Exactly, that's why his opinion is rejected...
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2018, 11:35:22 PM »
But back to the OP, I'll answer it with typical Ja'fari "whataboutism":

Why didn't Ali رضي الله عنه reinstate mut'ah?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2018, 11:46:57 PM »
Well, I beg to differ brother.
Nice. It appears  your list of arguments have been filtered down to a couple after my response. Alhamdulillah.


For example, in your reply 16 you suggested that ibn abbas believed in muta in extreme case like eating of the swine etc....

My response is: The eating of the swine is permissible in extreme cases and is allowed because your life can depend on it. If you are starving and there is only the pig and if you don't eat, you can die.

I ask, how is this comparable with Mutah in extreme cases? I mean have you heard of anyone who has died due to lack of sex? lol.
Like an average Shia, even you too have poor understanding skills. Ibn Abbas didn't compare Mutah with flesh of swine or meat of dead animal, for the purpose of eating in extreme case. Rather he used these examples merely to determine that Haram thing becomes halal in the time of extreme need.

As for what extreme situation it could be that Mutah was to be considered Halal, then see this example:

Musannaf `Abdul-Razzaq(Grading: Sahih) :

عَنِ ابْنِ عُيَيْنَةَ ، عَنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ ، عَنْ قَيسٍ ، عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مَسْعُودٍ ، قَالَ : " كُنَّا نَغْزُو مَعَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، فَتَطُولُ غُرْبَتُنَا , فَقُلْنَا : أَلا نَتَخَصَّى يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ؟ فَنَهَانَا ، ثُمَّ رَخَّصَ أَنْ نَتَزَوَّجَ الْمَرْأَةَ إِلَى أَجَلٍ بِالشَّيْءِ ، ثُمَّ نَهَانَا عَنْهَا يَوْمَ خَيْبَرَ ، وَعَنْ لُحُومِ الْحُمُرِ الإِنْسِيَّةِ " .

[From ibn `Uyaynah, from Isma`eel ibn abi Khalid, from Qays bin `Awf, from `Abdullah ibn Mas`oud (ra) that he said: "We used to make Ghazawat with the messenger (SAWS), so our absence would be very long (from home), so we said: "Should we castrate ourselves O messenger of Allah?" So he forbade us from it and made us a Rukhsa that we can marry the woman for a temporary time in exchange for something, then he forbade us from it on the day of Khaybar and the meat of the domestic donkey.]

So, you have got an idea what, extreme situation in regards to mutah would mean.


Come on brother, think about what you write and read your own posts carefully. I think I have had enough to say on this matter. No more rebuttals would be required because, quite frankly, I am disappointed with the arguments.
Infact I see your arguments as immature and unacademic. Why?  Well you try to mock the comparison, which Ibn Abbas(ra) made between meat of dead animal or swine meat with Mutah. Fine. So if you find it unreasonable, then know that Ibn Abbas(ra) was wrong in his analogy. Because its not my view, it was his view. Hence, reject it as its unreasonable in your view. So you shot yourself in the foot.

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2018, 11:47:58 PM »
Exactly, that's why his opinion is rejected...
Lol. He didn't realize that he shot his own leg, with this argument.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2018, 11:57:14 PM »
But back to the OP, I'll answer it with typical Ja'fari "whataboutism":

Why didn't Ali رضي الله عنه reinstate mut'ah?

Taqiyyah is no excuse as since ibn abbas spoke up & voiced his opinion then so could Ali, especially when he was in power. Unless shia want to say ibn abbas was more brave than Ali.

Khaled

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2018, 03:07:25 AM »
Lol. He didn't realize that he shot his own leg, with this argument.

The problem is that 12ers just make up their arguments as they go along.  I remember debating this issue once with a Shiachatter, and I asked him, "Why on earth would Omar ban Mut'ah?"  He told me, and he was 100% serious, that maybe Omar رضي الله عنه couldn't find anyone to do Mut'ah with...

What's really funny about this discussion is that 12ers always criticize Omar رضي الله عنه for backing down when questioned about his fiqh decisions yet here, he remains firm in his convictions.  How many times have we heard things about the woman who corrected him about limiting dowry, or how he he said "had it not been for Ali I would've been destroyed," yet somehow, in this particular situation, Omar won't listen to anyone and Ali رضي الله عنه is in taqiyyah mode, so he can't/won't correct him...
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Rationalist

Re: Why didn't Abu Bakr ban mut'ah?
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2018, 08:46:58 PM »
The problem is that 12ers just make up their arguments as they go along.  I remember debating this issue once with a Shiachatter, and I asked him, "Why on earth would Omar ban Mut'ah?"  He told me, and he was 100% serious, that maybe Omar رضي الله عنه couldn't find anyone to do Mut'ah with...

What's really funny about this discussion is that 12ers always criticize Omar رضي الله عنه for backing down when questioned about his fiqh decisions yet here, he remains firm in his convictions.  How many times have we heard things about the woman who corrected him about limiting dowry, or how he he said "had it not been for Ali I would've been destroyed," yet somehow, in this particular situation, Omar won't listen to anyone and Ali رضي الله عنه is in taqiyyah mode, so he can't/won't correct him...

I've been debating the 12er Shia for 14 years now. The worst part is they can go hours and hours bashing Umar. Then when you ask them, okay can we sit down and discuss 12er Shia narration on the subject. All of sudden they go into period of silence.

 

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