Did the Sahabah All Fight Each Other?

[muslim720]

Show me were and how?

Listen ostrich, you can bury your head in sand but I pointed our your insolence.  Go and re-read it.

We've had 124,000 Messengers and out of those let me give you an example of just only one. NOAH, he was a Messenger and how many people did he make believe?

Accumulating believers is not the point of our discussion.  What baffles me, which you are struggling to account for, is how come the Imams (ra) never had any influence?  With or without the Caliphate, their influence was next to nothing.  How is it that mere mortal fallible beings outdid the Imams (ra) at every corner and somehow overcame the "Divine Power" they (allegedly) possessed?

And there shouldn't be any doubt about him.

Trouble for you is that you do not understand a simple concept.  The Qur'an vouches for Nuh (asws).  It says nothing about Imamah or your Imams (ra).

Go do some research on just only him and that should silence you along with that that foul mouth and dirty tongue of yours. Look at the words and language you use.

A filthy person like yourself deserves nothing better.

I've given plenty of answers, examples and much explanation. But you are just one stubborn and arrogant..........

You have not!  You keep bringing up the Shi'i excuses which I keep refuting.  And you offer no counter-rebuttal except that I should open my mind, read more and that I have a filthy mouth. 

If I am so unlearned, why do you have such a hard time accounting for (or defending) your beliefs?  Says very little about your theology!

Where and how? All I get from you is baseless accusations. It's not my fault if you get knocked down while sparring here.  😀 What the hell would you do if you were in a Match.

lol, don't worry about my boxing aspirations.  Answer for your Imams (ra) who were outdone by Muawiya, lol!

[iceman]

Listen ostrich, you can bury your head in sand but I pointed our your insolence.  Go and re-read it.

Accumulating believers is not the point of our discussion.  What baffles me, which you are struggling to account for, is how come the Imams (ra) never had any influence?  With or without the Caliphate, their influence was next to nothing.  How is it that mere mortal fallible beings outdid the Imams (ra) at every corner and somehow overcame the "Divine Power" they (allegedly) possessed?

Trouble for you is that you do not understand a simple concept.  The Qur'an vouches for Nuh (asws).  It says nothing about Imamah or your Imams (ra).

A filthy person like yourself deserves nothing better.

You have not!  You keep bringing up the Shi'i excuses which I keep refuting.  And you offer no counter-rebuttal except that I should open my mind, read more and that I have a filthy mouth. 

If I am so unlearned, why do you have such a hard time accounting for (or defending) your beliefs?  Says very little about your theology!

lol, don't worry about my boxing aspirations.  Answer for your Imams (ra) who were outdone by Muawiya, lol!

"Listen ostrich, you can bury your head in sand but I pointed our your insolence.  Go and re-read it:

When and where? Back it up!

"What baffles me, which you are struggling to account for, is how come the Imams (ra) never had any influence?  With or without the Caliphate, their influence was next to nothing"

The following is from the Qur'an  (2:62)

"That was because they [repeatedly] disbelieved in the signs of Allah and killed the prophets without right"

Who killed the Prophets without right? Obviously the Jews. So according to your theory Muawiya got better of the Imams and theJews got better of the Prophets 😊

[muslim720]

When and where? Back it up!

Here to refute you not babysit you.

Who killed the Prophets without right? Obviously the Jews. So according to your theory Muawiya got better of the Imams and theJews got better of the Prophets 😊

The lame smiley face resurfaces along with another lame excuse.  Firstly, the Qur'an is talking about Prophets (asws) and we hear and we obey.  The Qur'an says nothing about your Imams (ra).  So we turn to your beliefs and justifications.  As per your belief, Imams (ra) are higher than Prophets (asws) so they should fare a little better but we see that they flopped at every turn (as per your narrative).  Furthermore, you justify one Imam's (ra) silence in the face of injustice as his helplessness because he did not have enough power (or the Caliphate).  And then we see another one of your Imam (ra), despite having the Caliphate and all the physical (worldly) and metaphysical (outer worldly) power, surrender to Muawiya, lol!

It is as though the Imams (ra) never wished to guide and wanted to be left alone.  Maybe you are forcing your own understanding (that they were guides) upon them while all they wanted to do was take the backseat.

[iceman]

Here to refute you not babysit you.

The lame smiley face resurfaces along with another lame excuse.  Firstly, the Qur'an is talking about Prophets (asws) and we hear and we obey.  The Qur'an says nothing about your Imams (ra).  So we turn to your beliefs and justifications.  As per your belief, Imams (ra) are higher than Prophets (asws) so they should fare a little better but we see that they flopped at every turn (as per your narrative).  Furthermore, you justify one Imam's (ra) silence in the face of injustice as his helplessness because he did not have enough power (or the Caliphate).  And then we see another one of your Imam (ra), despite having the Caliphate and all the physical (worldly) and metaphysical (outer worldly) power, surrender to Muawiya, lol!

It is as though the Imams (ra) never wished to guide and wanted to be left alone.  Maybe you are forcing your own understanding (that they were guides) upon them while all they wanted to do was take the backseat.

"Here to refute you not babysit you."

That's fine. You're liar and a false accuser.

 The following is from the Qur'an  (2:62)

"That was because they [repeatedly] disbelieved in the signs of Allah and killed the prophets without right"

Who killed the Prophets without right? Obviously the Jews. So according to your theory Muawiya got better of the Imams and the Jews got better of the Prophets 😊

"And then we see another one of your Imam (ra), despite having the Caliphate and all the physical (worldly) and metaphysical (outer worldly) power, surrender to Muawiya, lol!"

😀 You haven't done your homework. You have no knowledge what so ever. Read history and get to know first. Then you won't need to jump up and down 😊

[muslim720]

That's fine. You're liar and a false accuser.

Your insolence is out in the open for every one to see.

Who killed the Prophets without right? Obviously the Jews. So according to your theory Muawiya got better of the Imams and the Jews got better of the Prophets 😊

But the Imams (ra), who are higher than Prophets (asws) - according to you - should have fared better given that Risalah saw its mission to a completion through our Holy Prophet (saw).  Yet these all-powerful Imams (ra) have not even established their own Imamah, let alone establish their dominance, lol.

When they did not have material power, you excused them.  When they had material (worldly) power, they excused themselves, lol.  What a travesty for you all!

😀 You haven't done your homework. You have no knowledge what so ever. Read history and get to know first. Then you won't need to jump up and down 😊

Or you could have just said that you have ran out of your excuses and fallacious arguments, lol.

[iceman]

Your insolence is out in the open for every one to see.

But the Imams (ra), who are higher than Prophets (asws) - according to you - should have fared better given that Risalah saw its mission to a completion through our Holy Prophet (saw).  Yet these all-powerful Imams (ra) have not even established their own Imamah, let alone establish their dominance, lol.

When they did not have material power, you excused them.  When they had material (worldly) power, they excused themselves, lol.  What a travesty for you all!

Or you could have just said that you have ran out of your excuses and fallacious arguments, lol.

Your post # 153, below is a quote;

"You literally disrespected the Qur'an.  Read your previous post!"

All I've asked you is to EXPLAIN YOURSELF here.

How and where did I disrespected the Qur'an, PLEASE EXPLAIN.

[muslim720]

Your post # 153, below is a quote;

"You literally disrespected the Qur'an.  Read your previous post!"

All I've asked you is to EXPLAIN YOURSELF here.

How and where did I disrespected the Qur'an, PLEASE EXPLAIN.

Way to run from having to explain your Imams' (ra) incompetency, lol!  Can we return to the actual discussion?

[iceman]

Way to run from having to explain your Imams' (ra) incompetency, lol!  Can we return to the actual discussion?

Absolutely nothing to do with RUNNING. You accused me of something SERIOUS. Either explain when and where or take it back.

[iceman]

Absolutely nothing to do with RUNNING. You accused me of something SERIOUS. Either explain when and where or take it back.

Still waiting 😊

[muslim720]

Still waiting 😊

For the hidden Imam?  He ain't coming out any time soon, like ever!

[iceman]

For the hidden Imam?  He ain't coming out any time soon, like ever!

Waiting for you to tell me where and when I disrespected the Qur'an. This is what you accused me of. You should hide yourself in shame rather than having a dig. You're a filthy liar.

[muslim720]

Waiting for you to tell me where and when I disrespected the Qur'an. This is what you accused me of. You should hide yourself in shame rather than having a dig. You're a filthy liar.

Cave man isn't coming out and I am a "filthy liar"?  "Filthy liar" is the one who sold you the cave man story.  And you are an unfortunate idiot to believe it!

[iceman]

Cave man isn't coming out and I am a "filthy liar"?  "Filthy liar" is the one who sold you the cave man story.  And you are an unfortunate idiot to believe it!

You accused me of disrespecting the Qur'an. Are you going to tell me where and when I did that, are you going to take the false accusation back or are you just an accuser without reason and ground? 😊

[muslim720]

You accused me of disrespecting the Qur'an. Are you going to tell me where and when I did that, are you going to take the false accusation back or are you just an accuser without reason and ground? 😊

It is not a false accusation.  Every time we press you with the dichotomous actions of your "infallible" Imams (ra), you bring up Qur'anic passages when they are not one in the same.  What the Qur'an says regarding Allah (swt) and Iblees can never be used to justify why Imam Hassan (ra) gave up his Caliphate to Muawiya.  There are many reason why that argument is absurd the most obvious of them all being the fact that Imamah is absent from the Qur'an.  So I do not know why you would lie upon the Qur'an, therefore degrade and disrespect it, by using it to support your own whims.

[iceman]

It is not a false accusation.  Every time we press you with the dichotomous actions of your "infallible" Imams (ra), you bring up Qur'anic passages when they are not one in the same.  What the Qur'an says regarding Allah (swt) and Iblees can never be used to justify why Imam Hassan (ra) gave up his Caliphate to Muawiya.  There are many reason why that argument is absurd the most obvious of them all being the fact that Imamah is absent from the Qur'an.  So I do not know why you would lie upon the Qur'an, therefore degrade and disrespect it, by using it to support your own whims.

You sound and behave like a person who lacks in knowledge and information but is desperate to discuss and debate to show himself better. And the only thing you have to show yourself with is ignorance.

Rather than admitting or accepting you come up with twists and turns and various manoeuvres. And then you go patting yourself on the back and cheering yourself up.

You have absolute disregard for the title of the thread and what we're actually discussing on that thread. You bring in irrelevant issues and matters which have got nothing to do with the thread and what we're are discussing.

All you come up with is cussing and taunting. And when cornered you come out with tantrums and frustration. What is the title of the thread and what are we actually discussing? Then take a look at your posts.

What do you come up with, 'Ali couldn't protect his wife" Cave man is still hiding' bla bla bla and etc etc etc. Would you like me to give you an entire list of irrelevant things you've brought in 😊

[muslim720]

You sound and behave like a person who lacks in knowledge and information but is desperate to discuss and debate to show himself better. And the only thing you have to show yourself with is ignorance.

I am not better.  It is just that you cannot even begin to address my arguments, let alone refute them.

Rather than admitting or accepting you come up with twists and turns and various manoeuvres. And then you go patting yourself on the back and cheering yourself up.

These are not maneuvers; they are genuine points of concern.  I would be very concerned (about the things I have said) if I were a Shi'i. 

You have absolute disregard for the title of the thread and what we're actually discussing on that thread. You bring in irrelevant issues and matters which have got nothing to do with the thread and what we're are discussing.

All you come up with is cussing and taunting. And when cornered you come out with tantrums and frustration. What is the title of the thread and what are we actually discussing? Then take a look at your posts.

My thesis has been consistent.  The "infallible" Imams (ra) failed, if we accept your theology.  They failed under all circumstances.  Shias excuse them when they did not have power and when they had power, they excused themselves and took the backseat.  So much for them being the "Guides".

What do you come up with, 'Ali couldn't protect his wife" Cave man is still hiding' bla bla bla and etc etc etc. Would you like me to give you an entire list of irrelevant things you've brought in 😊

Again, failure to protect his wife or failure to face the world is FAILURE!  My thesis re-affirmed!

[iceman]

I am not better.  It is just that you cannot even begin to address my arguments, let alone refute them.

These are not maneuvers; they are genuine points of concern.  I would be very concerned (about the things I have said) if I were a Shi'i. 

My thesis has been consistent.  The "infallible" Imams (ra) failed, if we accept your theology.  They failed under all circumstances.  Shias excuse them when they did not have power and when they had power, they excused themselves and took the backseat.  So much for them being the "Guides".

Again, failure to protect his wife or failure to face the world is FAILURE!  My thesis re-affirmed!

Then what you need to do is pick one matter or subject and then discuss that in depth and in detail then move on to the next, rather than bringing in different matters and separate subjects and throwing them in the same pot and creating an absolute mixture that we're neither here nor there. 😊

[iceman]

I am not better.  It is just that you cannot even begin to address my arguments, let alone refute them.

These are not maneuvers; they are genuine points of concern.  I would be very concerned (about the things I have said) if I were a Shi'i. 

My thesis has been consistent.  The "infallible" Imams (ra) failed, if we accept your theology.  They failed under all circumstances.  Shias excuse them when they did not have power and when they had power, they excused themselves and took the backseat.  So much for them being the "Guides".

Again, failure to protect his wife or failure to face the world is FAILURE!  My thesis re-affirmed!

"I am not better.  It is just that you cannot even begin to address my arguments, let alone refute them"

That's what you think. As far as I'm concerned I've answered your questions, addressed your points and responded to each and every comment you've made and concern you've put forward. You on the other hand only choose what you want to answer, address or comment on.

"These are not maneuvers; they are genuine points of concern.  I would be very concerned (about the things I have said) if I were a Shi'i"

We are not hesitant or concerned. We've been dealing with such accusations and arguments based on propaganda for the last 1400 years. Nothing bothers or shocks us.

"Again, failure to protect his wife or failure to face the world is FAILURE!  My thesis re-affirmed!"

You speak immature. Do you even know what failure is? Let me give you an example according to your own understanding again.

FAILURE. Do you believe in the coming of Mahdi? I'm sure you do as a Sunni. Why is he going to come and what is he going to do? Because the world will be filled with evil and injustice and he will fill it with justice and fairness.

So according to your theory Muhammad s.a.w and his final message along with his efforts failed otherwise why would the world fill with unfairness and injustice and what would be the need for Mahdi.

See how ridiculous your theory and understanding is. 😊

[muslim720]

That's what you think. As far as I'm concerned I've answered your questions, addressed your points and responded to each and every comment you've made and concern you've put forward.

At best, you have offered us our own answers.  In other words, you are telling me what I believe.  I have no qualms with my beliefs; I have an issue with your beliefs.  The essence of Imamah is violated by none other than the Imams (ra).  There is not a single person who contradicts Imamah more thoroughly than the Imams (ra) themselves. 

What you cannot and will not do is offer reconciliation between Shi'i beliefs and the actions of the Imams (ra).

We are not hesitant or concerned. We've been dealing with such accusations and arguments based on propaganda for the last 1400 years. Nothing bothers or shocks us.

In other words, you have gone mind numb!  You cannot, or refuse to, see how the Imams (ra) went against every clause within Imamah (which are laid down by Shias).

You speak immature. Do you even know what failure is? Let me give you an example according to your own understanding again.

The inability to protect your own wife is failure.  I feel sorry for the one who will marry you.

FAILURE. Do you believe in the coming of Mahdi? I'm sure you do as a Sunni. Why is he going to come and what is he going to do? Because the world will be filled with evil and injustice and he will fill it with justice and fairness.

So according to your theory Muhammad s.a.w and his final message along with his efforts failed otherwise why would the world fill with unfairness and injustice and what would be the need for Mahdi.

The Holy Prophet (saw) accomplished and succeeded in his mission.  The very fact that one of his descendants, who is also from his Ummah, will establish fairness and justice is a testimony to the Holy Prophet's (saw) success because Imam Mahdi (as) will establish justice by re-implementing the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (saw).  Furthermore, this descendant will bring back justice, NOT INTRODUCE JUSTICE, by emulating the Holy Prophet (saw).

In summary, the Holy Prophet (saw) not only lived and succeeded in his mission but his followers will continue upon it and the only source of justice is following and implementing the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (saw).

You, on the other hand, cannot even accept Muawiya as your leader when it was your 2nd "infallible" Imam (ra) who made him the leader of the Muslims!  Will you, as a Shi'i, dare emulate Imam Hassan's (ra) action and accept Muawiya as your leader? 

Now let us see which actions of the Imams (ra) can you implement and follow.

1.  They never declared their Imamah.  Will you follow them in not preaching and following Imamah?  You won't!

2.  They could not establish their control upon the Ummah (even when they had the Caliphate).  Will you accept and admit this reality, let alone abide by it?  You won't!

3.  Keeping Shi'i expectations and beliefs in mind, the Imams (ra) did the exact opposite of what was expected of them.  Will you, for example, accept Muawiya as your leader as did Imam Hassan (ra)?  Or will you concede Fadak?  You won't!

4.  The Imams (ra) contradicted each other in action.  Will you uphold one's actions over the other's?  You won't!

As you can see, upholding the "sunnah" of the Imams (ra) will force you into negating Shi'ism!

See how ridiculous your theory and understanding is. 😊

See how absurd your analogy was!

[iceman]

At best, you have offered us our own answers.  In other words, you are telling me what I believe.  I have no qualms with my beliefs; I have an issue with your beliefs.  The essence of Imamah is violated by none other than the Imams (ra).  There is not a single person who contradicts Imamah more thoroughly than the Imams (ra) themselves. 

What you cannot and will not do is offer reconciliation between Shi'i beliefs and the actions of the Imams (ra).

In other words, you have gone mind numb!  You cannot, or refuse to, see how the Imams (ra) went against every clause within Imamah (which are laid down by Shias).

The inability to protect your own wife is failure.  I feel sorry for the one who will marry you.

The Holy Prophet (saw) accomplished and succeeded in his mission.  The very fact that one of his descendants, who is also from his Ummah, will establish fairness and justice is a testimony to the Holy Prophet's (saw) success because Imam Mahdi (as) will establish justice by re-implementing the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (saw).  Furthermore, this descendant will bring back justice, NOT INTRODUCE JUSTICE, by emulating the Holy Prophet (saw).

In summary, the Holy Prophet (saw) not only lived and succeeded in his mission but his followers will continue upon it and the only source of justice is following and implementing the Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (saw).

You, on the other hand, cannot even accept Muawiya as your leader when it was your 2nd "infallible" Imam (ra) who made him the leader of the Muslims!  Will you, as a Shi'i, dare emulate Imam Hassan's (ra) action and accept Muawiya as your leader? 

Now let us see which actions of the Imams (ra) can you implement and follow.

1.  They never declared their Imamah.  Will you follow them in not preaching and following Imamah?  You won't!

2.  They could not establish their control upon the Ummah (even when they had the Caliphate).  Will you accept and admit this reality, let alone abide by it?  You won't!

3.  Keeping Shi'i expectations and beliefs in mind, the Imams (ra) did the exact opposite of what was expected of them.  Will you, for example, accept Muawiya as your leader as did Imam Hassan (ra)?  Or will you concede Fadak?  You won't!

4.  The Imams (ra) contradicted each other in action.  Will you uphold one's actions over the other's?  You won't!

As you can see, upholding the "sunnah" of the Imams (ra) will force you into negating Shi'ism!

See how absurd your analogy was!

"I have no qualms with my beliefs"

And neither do we when it comes to our beliefs.

"I have an issue with your beliefs"

And we have issues with yours. So the feeling is mutual and the burden and responsibility of answering and explaining lies upon both. 😊

"There is not a single person who contradicts Imamah more thoroughly than the Imams (ra) themselves"

Well if that was the case and the matter was as crystal clear as that then they're wouldn’t have been an issue, would there?

I put forward and explanation and ask to answer and you disregard it. Once again what was the belief and faith of the author/writer of Al-Kafi? And did he believe in absolutely everything he has in his book? If the matter was as simple and as straightforward as you've said,

"There is not a single person who contradicts Imamah more thoroughly than the Imams (ra) themselves"

then where does the belief and faith of the author/writer (Al-Kulayni) go?😊

"The Holy Prophet (saw) accomplished and succeeded in his mission"

Exactly, so where did this unfairness and injustice come from? Is Caliphate going to be the actual cause? And it's going to be at the absolute peak and high, that's how worse it's going to get before the coming of Al Mahdi.

So according to your theory the Holy Prophet (saw) accomplished and succeeded in his mission, so what's going to or is going wrong if the Holy Prophet (saw) accomplished and succeeded in his mission?😊

"Furthermore, this descendant will bring back justice, NOT INTRODUCE JUSTICE, by emulating the Holy Prophet (saw)"

So who introduced justice? If the answer is that the Prophet s.a.w did then what exactly happened to that justice? You must ponder on this and accept that Caliphate is what messed things up and Saqifa was just only the beginning of things going wrong.😊

"You, on the other hand, cannot even accept Muawiya as your leader when it was your 2nd "infallible" Imam (ra) who made him the leader of the Muslims!"

😊 He didn't make him the leader of the Muslims. You have no knowledge about the peace treaty.