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Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?

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Hani

Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« on: February 26, 2015, 11:21:16 PM »
Salam,


This is another one of those lovely little topics, where we see the devilish way some people read history.


Muhammad Hasan bin Baqir al-Najafi was the leader of the Shia in his time and sole Marji` of Taqleed they had, he wrote in his book "Jawahir-ul-Kalam" vol.6 pg.66:


[What appears from the books of biographies and history is that many from the Companions, both during the time of the Prophet (saw) and after it, in addition to the people of Jamal and Siffeen, as well as all the people of Sham and the majority of the people of Madinah and Makkah, that they (all those mentioned) had extreme enmity towards Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen and his progeny (as). Although mixing with them and living among them was not rejected by the Shia even secretly, and so was the case when it came to Banu Umayyah and Banu al-`Abbas and their followers.]


So let's count who was exactly Nasibi according to Najafi, A lot from the companions, the people of Jamal, the people of Siffeen, all the people of Sham, the majority of the people of Madinah, and the majority of the people of Makkah.


Masha-Allah.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Proud Muslimah

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2015, 11:32:10 PM »
Anyone who believes in Hz Abubakr's r.a superiority is a Nasibi acc to them.. strange! but they don't say it lyk that.
" Allah sufficeth me. There is none worthy of worship but He alone. On Him is my trust, He is the Lord of the Supreme Throne." (Surah Tauba)

Ameen

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2015, 11:41:33 PM »
Salam,


This is another one of those lovely little topics, where we see the devilish way some people read history.


Muhammad Hasan bin Baqir al-Najafi was the leader of the Shia in his time and sole Marji` of Taqleed they had, he wrote in his book "Jawahir-ul-Kalam" vol.6 pg.66:


[What appears from the books of biographies and history is that many from the Companions, both during the time of the Prophet (saw) and after it, in addition to the people of Jamal and Siffeen, as well as all the people of Sham and the majority of the people of Madinah and Makkah, that they (all those mentioned) had extreme enmity towards Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen and his progeny (as). Although mixing with them and living among them was not rejected by the Shia even secretly, and so was the case when it came to Banu Umayyah and Banu al-`Abbas and their followers.]


So let's count who was exactly Nasibi according to Najafi, A lot from the companions, the people of Jamal, the people of Siffeen, all the people of Sham, the majority of the people of Madinah, and the majority of the people of Makkah.


Masha-Allah.

So what seems to the problem here??? Those people who went far as Jamal and Safeen are known as each others sworn enemies. You don't go to war out of the blue, you plan it. You consider yourself to be right and the other wrong. At least the person you mentioned is Mashallah clear about his views but you are still struck and struggling to save the rebels and outlaws of Jamal and Safeen.

But again when it comes to those who opposed the first or the third Khalifs, Malik Ibne Nuwayra and Muhammad Ibne Abu Bakar, one is accused of fitna and the other is branded as murtad. LOL. Come on bro, no lengthy discussion here. It's just simple and straight forward.

It's Ahle Sunnah verses their principals. It's not Sunni verses Shia. Bro stand by your principals and it's just as simple as that. This is what I have learned and mastered. Cut it short and make it nice and simple, so there are no excuses, no ifs and buts basically there is no where to run or hide.

Ameen

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2015, 11:42:25 PM »
Anyone who believes in Hz Abubakr's r.a superiority is a Nasibi acc to them.. strange! but they don't say it lyk that.

This is not what they believe in. But ok, how do they say it???

Hani

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2015, 11:48:59 PM »
Bro are you gonna post Malik bin Nuwayrah's name in every thread haha
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2015, 11:50:39 PM »
They categorise the Sahaba through character, performance and achievement where as the Ahle Sunnah categorise the Sahaba through the sequence of Khilafath (tarteeb e Khilafath). According to the Ahle Sunnah all companions were pious and good. The Ahle Sunnah believe that the companions were Mehfooz but not Masson, meaning they didn't sin but probably made mistakes and errors. But when the Sahaba are discussed they show them as saints who didn't put a foot wrong, apart from Ali (as) that is.

But when it comes to the likes of Malik Ibne Nuwayra, Malik Al Ashtar etc then their Sahabiath is put under serious question because one has to save the reputation and status of the ones they opposed and went against.

Ameen

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2015, 11:52:14 PM »
Bro are you gonna post Malik bin Nuwayrah's name in every thread haha

No brother, why don't you discuss the matter??? I promise you it will be nice and short. Just want to discuss and that is all. Scouts honour!

sawaaiq

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2015, 11:57:59 PM »
Is Musaylama from the Sahaba, Ameen?

Hani

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2015, 11:58:09 PM »
The Ahle Sunnah believe that the companions were Mehfooz but not Masson

I also don't think Sahabah are free-Masons.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 12:06:26 AM »
This is not what they believe in. But ok, how do they say it???

Murtada al-Ansari says in Kitab al-Taharah 2/357: "What is apparent from some narrations is that Nasb is not just linked to hatred for Ahlul-Bayt, but encompasses anyone who prefers al-Jibt  and al-Taghoot."

There's opinions in the Shi`ee Madhab who restrict the definition while others loosen it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Proud Muslimah

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2015, 12:11:44 AM »
Anyone who believes in Hz Abubakr's r.a superiority is a Nasibi acc to them.. strange! but they don't say it lyk that.

This is not what they believe in. But ok, how do they say it???


 Shia sheikh Muhammad Hasan an-Najafi al-Jawhari in his book “Jawaher al-kalam” (vol 6, p 66) quoted other shia scholar saying:
“أن الناصب يطلق على خمسة أوجه: الخارجي القادح في علي (ع)، الثاني ما ينسب إلى أحدهم (عليهم السلام) ما يسقط العدالة، الثالث من ينكر فضيلتهم لو سمعها، الرابع من اعتقد فضيلة غير علي (ع)، الخامس من أنكر النص على علي (ع) بعد سماعه أو وصوله إليه بوجه يصدقه
The Nasibi title is designated(for a person) over five reasons: For a Khariji who criticizes Ali (as); Secondly for he who attributes something that invalidates uprightness (adala) to any of the Imams, Thirdly, for he who denies a virtue of theirs when he heard it; Fourthly, for one who believes in the superiority of someone other than Ali (over him); Fifthly, he who denied the report of explicit election of Ali after hearing it or its reaching to him in a manner that allows him to confirm it”

comment : Check fourth point.

 It was asked from Imam Ali Naqi that what else we need to know besides that Nasibis give higher status to First Munafiq and Second Munafiq on Amir ul Momineen (i.e Ali) and that they believe in their imamate. He said “Whoever believes like that is a Nasibi” [Haqqul Yaqin, by Majlisi, Vol. 2, p. 521]

Comment: By first Munafiq, shias mean Abubakr(ra) and by second they mean Umar(ra).

isn't it wat shias believe? n I meant they won't say it openly that all Sunnis are nasibis ..
" Allah sufficeth me. There is none worthy of worship but He alone. On Him is my trust, He is the Lord of the Supreme Throne." (Surah Tauba)

Rationalist

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2015, 02:17:35 AM »
In Shaykh Mufid's al Irshad he has a report where it shows that there are nawasib even among the sea creatures.

Hani

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2015, 02:37:03 AM »
I remember a lecture by a Shia scholar about a Nasibi watermelon.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ameen

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2015, 02:52:51 AM »
Anyone who believes in Hz Abubakr's r.a superiority is a Nasibi acc to them.. strange! but they don't say it lyk that.

This is not what they believe in. But ok, how do they say it???


 Shia sheikh Muhammad Hasan an-Najafi al-Jawhari in his book “Jawaher al-kalam” (vol 6, p 66) quoted other shia scholar saying:
“أن الناصب يطلق على خمسة أوجه: الخارجي القادح في علي (ع)، الثاني ما ينسب إلى أحدهم (عليهم السلام) ما يسقط العدالة، الثالث من ينكر فضيلتهم لو سمعها، الرابع من اعتقد فضيلة غير علي (ع)، الخامس من أنكر النص على علي (ع) بعد سماعه أو وصوله إليه بوجه يصدقه
The Nasibi title is designated(for a person) over five reasons: For a Khariji who criticizes Ali (as); Secondly for he who attributes something that invalidates uprightness (adala) to any of the Imams, Thirdly, for he who denies a virtue of theirs when he heard it; Fourthly, for one who believes in the superiority of someone other than Ali (over him); Fifthly, he who denied the report of explicit election of Ali after hearing it or its reaching to him in a manner that allows him to confirm it”

comment : Check fourth point.

 It was asked from Imam Ali Naqi that what else we need to know besides that Nasibis give higher status to First Munafiq and Second Munafiq on Amir ul Momineen (i.e Ali) and that they believe in their imamate. He said “Whoever believes like that is a Nasibi” [Haqqul Yaqin, by Majlisi, Vol. 2, p. 521]

Comment: By first Munafiq, shias mean Abubakr(ra) and by second they mean Umar(ra).

isn't it wat shias believe? n I meant they won't say it openly that all Sunnis are nasibis ..


Thanks for the info. I've checked the 4th point as you have stated.
Answer; This is not the core belief of the Shias and this is not what the Shias believe in.
What you are going by is assumptions. They do not believe all Sunnis are nasabis just as they do not believe all Sunnis are terrorists and members of one terror organisation or the other. All Sunnis do not believe that Shias are Kafir and or Rafidies. I hope this answers your question and puts your assumptions to rest.

Hani

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2015, 03:18:37 AM »
I know for a fact that Shia scholars have a difference of opinion on this but we're just showing you that a good number of your biggest scholars such as al-Jawahiri (quoted above) and Murtada al-Ansari (also quoted above) did consider all opponents as Nawasib.

These are not lightweight scholars, they were popular and some were Maraji` in their times, similar to how Sistani is today.

For example, your Marji` and highest of scholars Agha Rida bin Muhammad al-Hamdani says in Misbah-ul-Faqih 2/568:

"What is meant by the term "Nasib" as is apparent from the narrations are the opponents generally, not only those of them who showed enmity towards Ahlul-Bayt or hated them religiously."

And your scholars don't say this blankly, they say it backed by evidence, for instance Majlisi's student, Ni`matullah al-Jaza'iri al-Musawi says in "al-Anwar al-Nu`maniyyah" 2/307:

"This explanation is backed by the fact that the Imams (as) and their close companions attributed the title of Nasibi to abu Hanifah and his likes, although abu Hanifah was not from those who had enmity for Ahlul-Bayt (as) rather he was known for his loyalty to them and his friendliness towards them."

So as you can see, it's not that simple when it comes to Imami Shia, and then on top of it you have to guess who is doing Taqiyyah and who isn't.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Furkan

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2015, 03:30:12 AM »
How fo they see if it's taqiya?
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Rationalist

Re: Everyone hates Ahlul-Bayt?
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2015, 04:17:11 AM »
The first generation was, but later since a lot of madhabs weren't documented we lost a lot of knowledge.

 

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