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Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?

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Ibn Yahya

Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« on: September 06, 2015, 06:51:41 PM »
Kitab al-Kafi, Hadith 190

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu Najran from ‘Asim ibn Humayd from Mansur ibn Hazim who has said the following. "I said to (Imam) abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.), ‘It is confuses me that when I ask you a question and you give an answer and then other person comes and you give a different answer for the same question.’" The Imam replied, "We answer people in a larger and reduced forms." I then asked, "Did the Sahabah, companions of the holy Prophet speak the truth or lies when narrating his Hadith?" The Imam replied, "They spoke the truth." I then said, "Why then they have differences?" Have you not considered the fact that a man would come to the holy Prophet (s.a.) and ask a question and would give him an answer and then he would answer

A brother on Facebook directed me to this Hadith. It's odd because it seems like the actual Ja'far as-Sadiq and he looks like he's refuting the Shi'ah (actually refutes many of their allegations like their polemics on Mut'ah and other matters). Does anyone know if this has an authentic Shi'ah chain or anything about this Mansur ibn Hazm?

Hani

Re: Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2015, 08:25:02 PM »
I remember this one, they'll dismiss it as Taqiyyah. Also keep in mind that their Imams never accused abu Hurayrah of lying in Hadith.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ibn Yahya

Re: Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2015, 08:57:37 PM »
I remember this one, they'll dismiss it as Taqiyyah. Also keep in mind that their Imams never accused abu Hurayrah of lying in Hadith.

I know they will. But also the Shi'ah claim that Imam Ja'far said Abu Hurayrah and Anas ibn Malik as well as 'A'isha used to lie against the Prophet.

Hani

Re: Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2015, 10:52:38 PM »
I don't think there's anything concerning abu hurayrah's hadith. pls quote it if u have it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Farid

Re: Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2015, 10:53:15 PM »
Yes. Mansour bin Hazim is reliable according to Shia Rijal books.

MuslimK

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Re: Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2015, 01:44:43 AM »
Kitab al-Kafi, Hadith 190

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu Najran from ‘Asim ibn Humayd from Mansur ibn Hazim who has said the following. "I said to (Imam) abu ‘Abdallah (a.s.), ‘It is confuses me that when I ask you a question and you give an answer and then other person comes and you give a different answer for the same question.’" The Imam replied, "We answer people in a larger and reduced forms." I then asked, "Did the Sahabah, companions of the holy Prophet speak the truth or lies when narrating his Hadith?" The Imam replied, "They spoke the truth." I then said, "Why then they have differences?" Have you not considered the fact that a man would come to the holy Prophet (s.a.) and ask a question and would give him an answer and then he would answer

A brother on Facebook directed me to this Hadith. It's odd because it seems like the actual Ja'far as-Sadiq and he looks like he's refuting the Shi'ah (actually refutes many of their allegations like their polemics on Mut'ah and other matters). Does anyone know if this has an authentic Shi'ah chain or anything about this Mansur ibn Hazm?

Yes, Majlisi says it is Hasan (Good)

Here is the Arabic text for the narration:

علي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن ابن أبي نجران، عن عاصم بن حميد، عن منصور بن حازم قال: قلت لابي عبدالله عليه السلام: ما بالي أسألك عن المسألة فتجيبني فيها بالجواب، ثم يجيئك غيري فتجيبه فيها بجواب آخر؟ فقال: إنا نجيب الناس على الزيادة والنقصان، قال: قلت: فأخبرني عن أصحاب رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله صدقوا على محمد صلى الله عليه وآله أم كذبوا؟ قال: بل صدقوا، قال: قلت: فما بالهم اختلفوا؟ فقال: أما تعلم أن الرجل كان يأتي رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فيسأله عن المسألة فيجيبه فيها بالجواب ثم يجيبه بعد ذلك ما ينسخ ذلك الجواب، فنسخت الاحاديث بعضها بعضا.

Online link from Shia website:
http://www.mezan.net/books/kafi/kafi1/html/ara/books/al-kafi-1/23.html
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Rationalist

Re: Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2015, 02:28:12 AM »
I remember this one, they'll dismiss it as Taqiyyah. Also keep in mind that their Imams never accused abu Hurayrah of lying in Hadith.
Or they might say companion here means people like Salman Farsi, Abu Dharr, Miqdad etc...

Ibn Yahya

Re: Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2015, 12:33:51 AM »
I don't think there's anything concerning abu hurayrah's hadith. pls quote it if u have it.
They do, it says something like "three people used to lie about the prophet; Aisha, Anas ibn Malik and Abu Hurayrah".

Ibn Yahya

Re: Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2015, 12:36:59 AM »
I remember this one, they'll dismiss it as Taqiyyah. Also keep in mind that their Imams never accused abu Hurayrah of lying in Hadith.
Or they might say companion here means people like Salman Farsi, Abu Dharr, Miqdad etc...

Yeah they have the tendency to add that kind of Qiyas (even though it's expressly forbidden in their Ahadith lol) with these types of Hadith. Majlis I tried to abrogate 9:100 by saying this only those ansaris and muhajirs who recognised 'Ali's Wilayah lol

Hadrami

Re: Imam Ja'far says the Sahabah are truthful?
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2015, 02:39:11 AM »
I remember this one, they'll dismiss it as Taqiyyah. Also keep in mind that their Imams never accused abu Hurayrah of lying in Hadith.
Or they might say companion here means people like Salman Farsi, Abu Dharr, Miqdad etc...

Yeah they have the tendency to add that kind of Qiyas (even though it's expressly forbidden in their Ahadith lol) with these types of Hadith. Majlis I tried to abrogate 9:100 by saying this only those ansaris and muhajirs who recognised 'Ali's Wilayah lol

they say only some of them were praised. Even that argument doesn't support shiaism, because shia believe only tiny minority were believers.

 

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