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TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?

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Ijtaba

TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« on: February 12, 2018, 01:21:02 PM »
Salaam.

In TS article: http://www.twelvershia.net/2018/01/24/refutation-abu-bakr-really-lead-salat/ it is written,"...while also downplaying the importance of the spiritual role of leading the prayer."

May I know what is the spiritual significance of leading the prayer in Ahlul Sunnah? According one narration of ibn 'Umar in Sahih al-Bukhari, Abu Bakr prayed behind Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa.

Narrated Ibn `Umar:

Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa used to lead in prayer the early Muhajirin (emigrants) and the companions of the Prophet (s) in the Quba mosque. Among those (who used to pray behind him) were Abu Bakr, `Umar, Abu Salama, and Amir bin Rabi`a.

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 7175
In-book reference : Book 93, Hadith 39
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 9, Book 89, Hadith 287


Farid

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2018, 05:22:38 PM »
Great merit for Salim, may Allah be pleased with him.

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2018, 07:08:57 PM »
Great merit for Salim, may Allah be pleased with him.

Indeed.

But I wanted to know the importance of the spiritual role of leading the prayer. From the hadith it could be clearly seen two greatest companions praying behind a person who was less than them in Faith and Knowledge. Surely, Salim leading Abu Bakr & Umar is a merit for Salim... but what I wanted to know was what merit was there for Abu Bakr & Umar by offering Salat behind a person who was inferior to them in terms of Faith and Knowledge according to Ahlul Sunnah?

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2018, 12:45:01 AM »
Salaam.

In TS article: http://www.twelvershia.net/2018/01/24/refutation-abu-bakr-really-lead-salat/ it is written,"...while also downplaying the importance of the spiritual role of leading the prayer."

May I know what is the spiritual significance of leading the prayer in Ahlul Sunnah?

Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari reported Allah's Messenger (SAWS) as saying: The one who is most versed in Allah's Book should act as Imam for the people, but If they are equally versed in reciting it, then the one who has most knowledge regarding Sunnah if they are equal regarding the Sunnah, then the earliest one to emigrate; if they emigrated at the same time, then the earliest one to embrace Islam. No man must lead another in prayer where (the latter) has authority, or sit in his place of honour in his house, without his permission. Ashajj in his narration used the word," age" in place of" Islam".[Sahih Muslim, Book 4, Hadith 1420]

Similarly, It was narrated from Abu Sa'eed that the Prophet (SAWS) said: "when there are three people let one of them lead the prayer, and the one who is most entitled to lead the prayer is the one who has most knowledge of the Qur'an."[Sunan an-Nasa'i 782; Grading: Sahih]


According one narration of ibn 'Umar in Sahih al-Bukhari, Abu Bakr prayed behind Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa.

Narrated Ibn `Umar:

Salim, the freed slave of Abu Hudhaifa used to lead in prayer the early Muhajirin (emigrants) and the companions of the Prophet (s) in the Quba mosque. Among those (who used to pray behind him) were Abu Bakr, `Umar, Abu Salama, and Amir bin Rabi`a.

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 7175
In-book reference : Book 93, Hadith 39
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 9, Book 89, Hadith 287

It is very likely that this event occurred before the conditions were introduced by Prophet Muhammad(saws). These conditions comprised of spiritual significance.

Farid

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2018, 01:22:39 AM »
^ That is a possibility.

Another possibility is that Salim recited the Qur'an better than any of the Sahaba. Of course, that would strengthen the claim of Abu Bakr's indirect appointment, since he was made Imam even though he wasn't the best reciter. You can theorize all you like as long as you accept that Abu Bakr led the prayer and that leading the prayer is a merit.

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 10:58:12 AM »
It is very likely that this event occurred before the conditions were introduced by Prophet Muhammad(saws). These conditions comprised of spiritual significance.

The conditions mentioned in hadith (Sahih Muslim) given by you in descending order are following:

01. The one who is most versed in reciting Allah's Book should act as Imam for the people,

02. then the one who has most knowledge regarding Sunnah,

03. then the earliest one to emigrate,

04. then the earliest one to embrace Islam.


In second hadith (Sunan an-Nasa'i) given by you the one who is most entitled to lead the prayer is the one who has most knowledge of the Qur'an. I am confused.

Is it the one who recites Qur'an better or the one who has most knowledge of the Qur'an?

Below is a hadith from Sahih al-Bukhari

Narrated `Amr bin Salama:

We were at a place which was a thoroughfare for the people, and the caravans used to pass by us and we would ask them, "What is wrong with the people? What is wrong with the people? Who is that man?. They would say, "That man claims that Allah has sent him (as an Apostle), that he has been divinely inspired, that Allah has revealed to him such-and-such." I used to memorize that (Divine) Talk, and feel as if it was inculcated in my chest (i.e. mind) And the 'Arabs (other than Quraish) delayed their conversion to Islam till the Conquest (of Mecca). They used to say." "Leave him (i.e. Muhammad) and his people Quraish: if he overpowers them then he is a true Prophet. So, when Mecca was conquered, then every tribe rushed to embrace Islam, and my father hurried to embrace Islam before (the other members of) my tribe. When my father returned (from the Prophet) to his tribe, he said, "By Allah, I have come to you from the Prophet (ﷺ) for sure!" The Prophet (ﷺ) afterwards said to them, 'Offer such-and-such prayer at such-and-such time, and when the time for the prayer becomes due, then one of you should pronounce the Adhan (for the prayer), and let the one amongst you who knows Qur'an most should, lead the prayer." So they looked for such a person and found none who knew more Qur'an than I because of the Qur'anic material which I used to learn from the caravans. They therefore made me their Imam (to lead the prayer) and at that time I was a boy of six or seven years, wearing a Burda (i.e. a black square garment) proved to be very short for me (and my body became partly naked). A lady from the tribe said, "Won't you cover the anus of your reciter for us?" So they bought (a piece of cloth) and made a shirt for me. I had never been so happy with anything before as I was with that shirt.


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 4302
In-book reference : Book 64, Hadith 335
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 59, Hadith 595 (deprecated numbering scheme)


Does this mean memorizer of Qur'an (Hāfiẓ) is more preferred to lead Salat than religious scholar (Ālim)?

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2018, 11:22:33 AM »
... Another possibility is that Salim recited the Qur'an better than any of the Sahaba. Of course, that would strengthen the claim of Abu Bakr's indirect appointment, since he was made Imam even though he wasn't the best reciter.

If such was the case then why did Abu Bakr or Umar not raise this point for themselves against Ansars during the event of Saqifah?

Farid

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2018, 11:27:14 AM »
Abu Bakr didn't attempt to take the caliphate. Remember, he only said that it should be in Quraish.

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2018, 11:36:34 AM »
Abu Bakr didn't attempt to take the caliphate. Remember, he only said that it should be in Quraish.

Umar could have reminded Ansars that the Prophet (s.a.w.w) desired Abu Bakr to be his (s.a.w.w) Caliph as he (s.a.w.w) hinted his desire by making Abu Bakr to lead prayers during his (s.a.w.w) last day(s). But nowhere did Umar ever say this but on the contrary he said that the matter of caliphate during the event of Saqifah was sudden decision.

Farid

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2018, 12:36:37 PM »
Omar didn't seem interested in debating fadha'il. He immediately gave bay'ah to Abu Bakr. Your point would be valid if he mentioned merits of Abu Bakr and left this one out.

Here is a question to you: Is leading the prayer a merit or not?

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2018, 12:51:59 PM »
Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari reported Allah's Messenger (SAWS) as saying: The one who is most versed in Allah's Book should act as Imam for the people, but If they are equally versed in reciting it, then the one who has most knowledge regarding Sunnah if they are equal regarding the Sunnah, then the earliest one to emigrate; if they emigrated at the same time, then the earliest one to embrace Islam. No man must lead another in prayer where (the latter) has authority, or sit in his place of honour in his house, without his permission. Ashajj in his narration used the word," age" in place of" Islam".[Sahih Muslim, Book 4, Hadith 1420]

Similarly, It was narrated from Abu Sa'eed that the Prophet (SAWS) said: "when there are three people let one of them lead the prayer, and the one who is most entitled to lead the prayer is the one who has most knowledge of the Qur'an."[Sunan an-Nasa'i 782; Grading: Sahih]

It is very likely that this event occurred before the conditions were introduced by Prophet Muhammad(saws). These conditions comprised of spiritual significance.

Yet the Mahdi (as) will lead Isa (as) in Salat. Contradiction or?
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Ijtaba

Re: TS Article - Refutation of: Did Abu Bakr Really Lead the Salat?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2018, 02:32:20 PM »
Omar didn't seem interested in debating fadha'il. He immediately gave bay'ah to Abu Bakr.

But the fadha'il of Quraysh was mentioned against fadha'ils of Ansars at the gathering in Saqifah.

Your point would be valid if he mentioned merits of Abu Bakr and left this one out.

I was asking whether in his (i.e. Umar) lifetime he mentioned this merit of Abu Bakr i.e. leading prayer in the lifetime of Prophet (s.a.w.w) indicating Prophet's (s.a.w.w) desire for Abu Bakr to become his (s.a.w.w) Caliph because Umar in his lifetime did mention merits of Abu Bakr.

Here is a question to you: Is leading the prayer a merit or not?

Leading a prayer would be a merit if only a person most entitled to lead a prayer would be the best amongst Muslims as he would be considered a spokesman for the congregation as they would consider inappropriate to choose an open sinner to represent the congregation in front of the court of KING of All Kings - ALLAH (SWT)

If this is not the case then I don't think that leading a prayer is a merit.

- A boy of seven years could lead prayer

`Amr bin Salama (See hadith Sahih al-Bukhari 4302)

- The one who killed Sahabi (Abdullah ibn Zubayr) and many other people could lead prayer

`Abdullah ibn `Umar  used to pray behind Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf as well as Anas ibn Malik.

- Fasiq & drunk person could lead prayer

`Abdullah ibn Mas`ud and other Companions used to pray behind Al-Walid ibn `Uqbah ibn Abu Mu`ayt who used to drink alcohol and as a result offered four Rak`ahs of Fajr prayer instead of two. He then suggested to offer more Rak`ahs. It was said to him by Ibn Mas`ud, “You have already prayed more than is due.”

- Imam of sedition could lead prayer

`Uthman was placed under house arrest, a person led people in Salah. Someone said to `Uthman, “You are the Imam of all the Muslims but the person who led people in Salah is an Imam that will cause affliction.” He replied, “O nephew, verily, Salah is the best thing that people can do. Thus, if they do it properly, then do it along with them. But if they do it improperly, then avoid their wrong.”

 

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