TwelverShia.net Forum

Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Ijtaba

Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« on: December 28, 2016, 07:23:38 PM »
Salaam,

Can someone provide Ahlul Sunnah references on the marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum bin Ali? And I would also like to know the real name of Umm e Kulthum bin Ali?

« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 07:25:11 PM by Ijtaba »

Abu Muhammad

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2016, 08:10:17 PM »
Wa'alaikumussalam wrh.,

It is in Sahih Al-Bukhari:

 ثعلبة بن أبي مالك إن عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه قسم مروطا بين نساء من نساء المدينة فبقي مرط جيد فقال له بعض من عنده يا أمير المؤمنين أعط هذا ابنة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم التي عندك يريدون أم كلثوم بنت علي فقال عمر أم سليط أحق وأم سليط من نساء الأنصار ممن بايع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال عمر فإنها كانت تزفر لنا القرب يوم أحد

qāla tha`laba ibn abī mālik inna `umar ibn al-khaţţāb rađiya Allāhu `anhu qasama murūţan bayn nisā’i min nisā’ al-madīna fa baqiya mirţun jayyidun fa qāla lahu ba`đu man `indahu yā amīr al-mu’minīn a`ţi hādha ibnat rasūl Allāh şall Allāhu `alayhi wa sallama allatī `indaka yurīdūna umm kulthūm bint `alī fa qāla `umar umm salīţ aĥaqqu wa umm salīţ min nisā’ al-anşār mimman bāya`a rasūl Allāh şall Allāhu `alayhi wa sallama qāla `umar fa innahā kānat tazfiru lanā al-qirab yawm uĥud

“Tha`laba ibn Abī Mālik said: ‘`Umar (ra) divided up some garments among some of the women of Madīna. One excellent garment remained and one of those with him said: ‘Commander of the believers! Give this to the (grand) daughter of the Messenger of Allāh (saws) to whom you are married—meaning Umm Kulthūm the daughter of `Alī. `Umar (ra) replied: ‘Umm Salīţ is more entitled. Umm Salīţ was one of the people of Anşār who had given allegiance to the Messenger of Allāh (saws).’ `Umar (ra) added: ‘She carried waterskins for us on the day of Uĥud.’”

Şaĥīĥ al-Bukhārī, of Abū `Abd Allāh al-Bukhārī (d. 256), volume 3, page 222 [Beirut]

Found it in here:
http://www.twelvershia.org/2015/08/31/5-blatant-lie-about-sahih-al-bukhari-i-umm-kulthum-bint-ali/

Hani

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2016, 08:29:07 AM »
This marriage is mass-transmitted in the books of the historians and the Shia books. It was reported countless times and those who deny it are deceiving themselves and others.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2016, 02:15:01 PM »
Wa'alaikumussalam wrh.,

It is in Sahih Al-Bukhari:

 ثعلبة بن أبي مالك إن عمر بن الخطاب رضي الله عنه قسم مروطا بين نساء من نساء المدينة فبقي مرط جيد فقال له بعض من عنده يا أمير المؤمنين أعط هذا ابنة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم التي عندك يريدون أم كلثوم بنت علي فقال عمر أم سليط أحق وأم سليط من نساء الأنصار ممن بايع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال عمر فإنها كانت تزفر لنا القرب يوم أحد

qāla tha`laba ibn abī mālik inna `umar ibn al-khaţţāb rađiya Allāhu `anhu qasama murūţan bayn nisā’i min nisā’ al-madīna fa baqiya mirţun jayyidun fa qāla lahu ba`đu man `indahu yā amīr al-mu’minīn a`ţi hādha ibnat rasūl Allāh şall Allāhu `alayhi wa sallama allatī `indaka yurīdūna umm kulthūm bint `alī fa qāla `umar umm salīţ aĥaqqu wa umm salīţ min nisā’ al-anşār mimman bāya`a rasūl Allāh şall Allāhu `alayhi wa sallama qāla `umar fa innahā kānat tazfiru lanā al-qirab yawm uĥud

“Tha`laba ibn Abī Mālik said: ‘`Umar (ra) divided up some garments among some of the women of Madīna. One excellent garment remained and one of those with him said: ‘Commander of the believers! Give this to the (grand) daughter of the Messenger of Allāh (saws) to whom you are married—meaning Umm Kulthūm the daughter of `Alī. `Umar (ra) replied: ‘Umm Salīţ is more entitled. Umm Salīţ was one of the people of Anşār who had given allegiance to the Messenger of Allāh (saws).’ `Umar (ra) added: ‘She carried waterskins for us on the day of Uĥud.’”

Şaĥīĥ al-Bukhārī, of Abū `Abd Allāh al-Bukhārī (d. 256), volume 3, page 222 [Beirut]

Found it in here:
http://www.twelvershia.org/2015/08/31/5-blatant-lie-about-sahih-al-bukhari-i-umm-kulthum-bint-ali/

Are there more narrations on Umm e Kulthum bint Ali? And how was the relationship between Hadhrat Umar and Umm e Kulthum... meaning looking from above narration it seems that Hadhrat Umar preferred another woman over his wife. The reason for asking this question is to know whether Umm e Kulthum bint Ali was happy with this marriage as the people who oppose (not deny) this marriage say that Umm e Kulthum was not happy with this marriage and she was forced into this marriage.

Ijtaba

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2016, 02:19:18 PM »
This marriage is mass-transmitted in the books of the historians and the Shia books. It was reported countless times and those who deny it are deceiving themselves and others.

Could you please provide authentic narrations from Ahlul Sunnah sources. I am asking this because Shias who oppose and/or deny this marriage say that the narrations describing Nikkah of Umm e Kulthum bint Ali with Hadhrat Umar show Hadhrat Umar in bad light i.e. Hadhrat Umar had forcefully married Umm e Kulthum by threatening Imam Ali (a.s), Hadhrat Umar treated Umm e Kulthum in indecent way before their marriage, etc.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2016, 03:07:08 PM »
What kind of man would let his daughter be abused then taken by an unbeliever? Especially a fearsome warrior like Ali?

The shia account makes no sense.

Hani

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2016, 07:53:22 PM »
Salam, I don't have time to research the chains but here's a quick one and it's authentic to Al Baqir.

فائدة روى عبد الرزاق وسعيد بن منصور وابن أبي عمرو عن سفيان عن عمرو بن دينار عن محمد بن علي بن الحنفية أن عمر خطب إلى علي ابنته أم كلثوم فذكر له صغرها فقال أبعث بها إليك فإن رضيت فهي امرأتك فأرسل بها إليه فكشف عن ساقها فقالت لولا أنك أمير المؤمنين لصككت عينك

Ali tells him she's too young but Umar insists due to the honor of marriage into prophetic household. Ali tells Umar: "I'll send her to you and if you are pleased then she's your wife." He tells his sons to fix her up and send her to Umar.

Umar sees her and says "I accept" he pulls her by her leg and kisses her.  This happened after she became his wife.

I add, she was too young so she wasn't mature. The little girls are treated differently.

He had two children from her, his son Zayd grew to be a man and his stories are popular.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Optimus Prime

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2016, 08:02:22 PM »
Ijtaba, are you a brother, or a sister?

Optimus Prime

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2016, 08:04:02 PM »
Salam, I don't have time to research the chains but here's a quick one and it's authentic to Al Baqir.

فائدة روى عبد الرزاق وسعيد بن منصور وابن أبي عمرو عن سفيان عن عمرو بن دينار عن محمد بن علي بن الحنفية أن عمر خطب إلى علي ابنته أم كلثوم فذكر له صغرها فقال أبعث بها إليك فإن رضيت فهي امرأتك فأرسل بها إليه فكشف عن ساقها فقالت لولا أنك أمير المؤمنين لصككت عينك

Ali tells him she's too young but Umar insists due to the honor of marriage into prophetic household. Ali tells Umar: "I'll send her to you and if you are pleased then she's your wife." He tells his sons to fix her up and send her to Umar.

Umar sees her and says "I accept" he pulls her by her leg and kisses her.  This happened after she became his wife.

I add, she was too young so she wasn't mature. The little girls are treated differently.

He had two children from her, his son Zayd grew to be a man and his stories are popular.

Asalamualaikum brother Hani.

Is this a Shis source you have quoted?

I wasn't aware there is a Sunni source called Al-Baqir recorded, and he authenticated Ahadith?

Hani

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2016, 10:53:39 PM »
He's a brother, it's mentioned in several sunni sources, al-Baqir is the narrator not the source.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2016, 02:25:04 AM »

Optimus Prime

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2016, 04:57:48 AM »
He's a brother, it's mentioned in several sunni sources, al-Baqir is the narrator not the source.

Ah, I see.

Ijtaba

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2017, 06:43:52 PM »
I went through some of Shia articles on this topic so that I can get views from both the sides on this topic.

While researching I came to conclusion that the marriage between Hadhrat Umar and Umm e Kulthum did take place and is a fact. However I came across some points (stated below) regarding this marriage which Shias have raised.


Issue 01:

Narrations of Umm e Kulthum being sent to Hadhrat Umar before their Marriage:

- Narrations on this incident show that Hadhrat Umar acted in an improper way with Umm e Kulthum before being married to Umm e Kulthum. Umm e Kulthum was of marriageable age (10-11 years*) and kissing and/or hugging her before marriage is inappropriate.

*She was born in 06 A.H and marriage took place in 17 A.H.


Issue 02:

Is being Father-in-Law not enough for relationship?

- Hadhrat Umar was already having relation with Holy Prophet (s) through his daughter Hadhrat Hafsa as Father-in-Law of the Holy Prophet (s) so why did he need to become son-in-law of Imam Ali (a.s) to get related to Holy Prophet (s)?

- It is also important to note that by marrying Umm e Kulthum Hadhrat Umar would be related to Imam Ali (a.s) and not to the Prophet (s) as Umm e Kulthom is daughter of Imam Ali (a.s).


Issue 03:

Why Umm e Kulthum daughter of Hadhrat Fatimah (s.a) and not Umamah bint Zaynab?

- If by marrying Prophet's (s) grand-daughter Hadhrat Umar could establish connection with Prophet (s) then why not marry Umamah bint Abu al-'As bin al-Rabi' instead of Umm e Kulthum as Umamah bint Zaynab being older than Umm e Kulthum is mature and more suitable as a wife.


Issue 04:

Did not understand the Hadith?

- Hadhrat Umar narrated that he heard the Prophet (s) say, "Every tie of kinship, and every association will be cut off on the Day of Qiyamah, except my kinship and my association." [‘Umar said,] "I have had the companionship of Rasulullah (s) ; I would like also to have this [kinship]."

On the day of Judgement all ties of kinship would be cut off... what does this mean? I assume that the hadith suggests that all non-descendants of the Prophet (s) would have their blood-relationships cut off... that is to say that Non-descendant Father would no longer be a Father to his Children, Non-descendant Mother would no longer be a Mother to her Children and vice versa... Only Descendant Father would be a Father to his Children, Descendant Mother would be a Mother to her Children and vice versa? If my assumption is correct then does that mean the hadith is suggesting some superior race kind of thing?

- I did like to know which category/type of people are considered to be included in the kinship of the Prophet (s)? Only descendants of Imam Ali (a.s) and Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) and those people who are related to the descendants of Imam Ali (a.s) and Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) through marriage considered to be in the kinship of Prophet (s)?

- Man should marry religious woman and not marry woman due to her wealth, beauty or family status. Hadhrat Umar married Umm e Kulthum due to her family status not because of her being religious. Umm e Kulthum was 8-11 years old and at this age it is difficult to know about their being religious.


Issue 05:

After the death of Hadhrat Umar with whom did Umm e Kulthum do Nikkah? For this (i.e. Nikkah of Umm e Kulthum after the death of Hadhrat Umar) could you provide reports which are considered authentic by Ahlul Sunnah.

*Shias claim that Aun ibn Jafar (a.s) and Mohammed ibn Jafar (a.s) were martyred during the lifetime of Hadhrat Umar in Battle of Tashthur in 17 A.H.

As for Abdullah ibn Jafar (a.s) then he was husband of Hadhrat Zaynab (s.a) and Umm e Kulthum could not have done Nikkah with Abdullah ibn Jafar (a.s) during the lifetime of Hadhrat Zaynab (s.a).



Issue 06:

Disturbing - Disrespecting Umm e Kulthum

For th op please See:

http://www.islamicweb.com/beliefs/cults/ummkulthoom.htm

In this article I found something disturbing.

Quote
...The traditions documented in al-Kafi are as follows:

‘Ali ibn Ibrahim—from his father—from Ibn Abi ‘Umayr—from Hisham ibn Salim and Hammad—from Zurarah, who narrates that

—Imam Ja‘far as-Sadiq said regarding the marriage of Umm Kulthoom: "That was a ‘woman’ who was taken from us by force." (Furu‘ al-Kafi, vol. 5 p. 347, Dar al-Adwa, Beirut 1992)

[The word ‘woman’ here is an attempt from the writer of this article to preserve the honour of the Ahl al-Bayt, since a literal translation of the original Arabic would prove too vulgar.]

So to know what was the word used in Arabic which was translated as 'woman' in the article I found out that the word is 'Farj'. Farj means 'Private Part'. Why such a disrepect is given to Umm e Kulthum by Imam Jafar ibn Mohammmed (a.s)? I also have noticed in Shia narrations that Umm e Kulthum is referred as Umm e Kulthum only and not Umm e Kulthum bint Ali (a.s) as if Imams (a.s) disliked her being connected with Ahlul Bayt (a.s).


zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2017, 09:47:11 PM »
Some good points mentioned there. Look forward to one of the knowledgable brothers reply

Hani

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2017, 01:07:56 AM »
Issue 01: Narrations of Umm e Kulthum being sent to Hadhrat Umar before their Marriage: As highlighted above, the kissing was after she became his wife. As for her age, she was around ten but that's not an established fact. (She was a kid like `A'ishah was).

Issue 02: Is being Father-in-Law not enough for relationship? No, Hafsah's marriage means she is linked but it does not necessarily link `Umar. `Umar wished to link himself by marrying the Prophet's (saw) granddaughter.

Issue 03: Why Umm e Kulthum daughter of Hadhrat Fatimah (s.a) and not Umamah bint Zaynab? Because `Ali's daughter was closer in lineage to the Prophet (saw) and nearer due to her father being a direct cousin. It's possible `Umar would have sought the other granddaughter if the first one rejected him.

Issue 04: Did not understand the Hadith? The Hadith does not imply the Prophet's (saw) family are given extra credit on the day of judgement. `Umar thought of it as an honor to marry into the Prophet's (saw) family and thought that his intention of seeking nearness to the Prophet (saw) would be rewarded by God on judgement day. It is surely a blessing no? As for kinship, I'd assume the closer the person is to the Prophet (saw) the higher the honor. I mean people rub their faces with his clothes for blessings so I'd assume you'll want to marry into his family as that's even better.

Issue 05: After the death of Hadhrat Umar with whom did Umm e Kulthum do Nikkah? I recall reading this but I forgot to whom she remarried afterwards.

Issue 06: Disturbing - Disrespecting Umm e Kulthum: Shia hate the guts of anyone remotely associated with `Umar. They narrated in their books from Ja`far that he said: "This is a vagina forcefully taken from us." The narration implies that `Umar snatched her by force. They also narrate in al-Kafi a story that `Ali refused but `Abbas was the one who married her off to `Umar without `Ali's acceptance, the purpose of this is to show that `Ali was displeased and it was `Abbas's fault. Many such as excuses can be found in Shia books to every historical matter that contradicts their `Aqidah.

Brother Ijataba, you need to know that almost every historical event opposes the Shia creed, this is why they fill their books with literally excuses to explain every single matter recorded in history and save their sect's storyline.

Al-Hasan made a peace treaty with Mu`awiyah and gave his Bay`ah, they invented excuses for this.
`Umar marrying `Ali's daughter, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali naming his children after the first three, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali praying behind the Caliphs, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali giving Bay`ah to the first three, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali not fighting for his supposed divine right, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali narrating what agrees with the Fiqh of the Muslim nation but opposes Shiasm, they invented excuses for this.
Zayd bin `Ali not knowing anything abt Shia version of Imamah, they invented excuses for this.
Hasan making peace whereas Husayn chose to fight yet both are infallible, they invented excuses for this.
Abu Bakr embracing Islam early, they invented excuses for this.
Companions choosing Abu Bakr over `Ali, they invented excuses for this.
Abu Bakr, `Umar and others being appointed as commanders by the prophet (as), they invented excuses for this.
Prophet (saw) marrying Abu Bakr and `Umar's daughters, they invented excuses for this.
Prophet (saw) still married to `A'ishah even after he preaches about her future evil deeds, they invented excuses for this.
Umayyads being a cursed tree yet the Prophet (saw) married abu Sufiyan's daughter and had a grandson from Umayyads, they invented excuses for this.
Salman, `Ammar and other major "Shia" being governors for `Umar, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali becoming Caliph yet not changing many of the rulings of those before him especially Fadak, Khums, Taraweed etc.. they invented excuses for this.
`Ali being a mighty warrior yet they claim his wife was beat in front of him (by cowards), they invented excuses for this.
Husayn went on a suicide mission yet took his family members and kids for some reason, they invented excuses for this.
12th Imam escaped out of fear yet companions are blamed for cowardice even though they returned to battlefield, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali and banu Hashim were oppressed yet at the same time were wealthy and had many lands and servants, they invented excuses for this.
Banu Umayyah invented Islamic history yet `Ali's virtues fill the books while Umayads are criticized repeatedly, they invented excuses for this.
12th Imam is savior of humanity from tyranny yet their scholars all admit he ran away from tyrants, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali is too important and greater than all prophets yet he's not mentioned in the Qur'an, they invented excuses for this.
Wives are not a part of the household but the Qur'an and Arab dictionaries say otherwise, they invented excuses for this.
Fatimah is the only daughter yet all history books mention the other daughters, they invented excuses for this.
etc....

This list can go on and on, you know what I mean. May God save us from their falsehood. I beg you brother to take a brave step and abandon the cult. I'm willing to share my whatsapp or phone so we can discuss everything in detail.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2017, 01:09:48 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Abu Muhammad

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2017, 01:28:07 AM »
May Allah's blessing is always on you brother Hani. I love reading your stuff.

MuslimK

  • *****
  • Total likes: 222
  • +7/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2017, 01:26:15 PM »
Issue 01: Narrations of Umm e Kulthum being sent to Hadhrat Umar before their Marriage: As highlighted above, the kissing was after she became his wife. As for her age, she was around ten but that's not an established fact. (She was a kid like `A'ishah was).

Issue 02: Is being Father-in-Law not enough for relationship? No, Hafsah's marriage means she is linked but it does not necessarily link `Umar. `Umar wished to link himself by marrying the Prophet's (saw) granddaughter.

Issue 03: Why Umm e Kulthum daughter of Hadhrat Fatimah (s.a) and not Umamah bint Zaynab? Because `Ali's daughter was closer in lineage to the Prophet (saw) and nearer due to her father being a direct cousin. It's possible `Umar would have sought the other granddaughter if the first one rejected him.

Issue 04: Did not understand the Hadith? The Hadith does not imply the Prophet's (saw) family are given extra credit on the day of judgement. `Umar thought of it as an honor to marry into the Prophet's (saw) family and thought that his intention of seeking nearness to the Prophet (saw) would be rewarded by God on judgement day. It is surely a blessing no? As for kinship, I'd assume the closer the person is to the Prophet (saw) the higher the honor. I mean people rub their faces with his clothes for blessings so I'd assume you'll want to marry into his family as that's even better.

Issue 05: After the death of Hadhrat Umar with whom did Umm e Kulthum do Nikkah? I recall reading this but I forgot to whom she remarried afterwards.

Issue 06: Disturbing - Disrespecting Umm e Kulthum: Shia hate the guts of anyone remotely associated with `Umar. They narrated in their books from Ja`far that he said: "This is a vagina forcefully taken from us." The narration implies that `Umar snatched her by force. They also narrate in al-Kafi a story that `Ali refused but `Abbas was the one who married her off to `Umar without `Ali's acceptance, the purpose of this is to show that `Ali was displeased and it was `Abbas's fault. Many such as excuses can be found in Shia books to every historical matter that contradicts their `Aqidah.

Brother Ijataba, you need to know that almost every historical event opposes the Shia creed, this is why they fill their books with literally excuses to explain every single matter recorded in history and save their sect's storyline.

Al-Hasan made a peace treaty with Mu`awiyah and gave his Bay`ah, they invented excuses for this.
`Umar marrying `Ali's daughter, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali naming his children after the first three, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali praying behind the Caliphs, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali giving Bay`ah to the first three, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali not fighting for his supposed divine right, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali narrating what agrees with the Fiqh of the Muslim nation but opposes Shiasm, they invented excuses for this.
Zayd bin `Ali not knowing anything abt Shia version of Imamah, they invented excuses for this.
Hasan making peace whereas Husayn chose to fight yet both are infallible, they invented excuses for this.
Abu Bakr embracing Islam early, they invented excuses for this.
Companions choosing Abu Bakr over `Ali, they invented excuses for this.
Abu Bakr, `Umar and others being appointed as commanders by the prophet (as), they invented excuses for this.
Prophet (saw) marrying Abu Bakr and `Umar's daughters, they invented excuses for this.
Prophet (saw) still married to `A'ishah even after he preaches about her future evil deeds, they invented excuses for this.
Umayyads being a cursed tree yet the Prophet (saw) married abu Sufiyan's daughter and had a grandson from Umayyads, they invented excuses for this.
Salman, `Ammar and other major "Shia" being governors for `Umar, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali becoming Caliph yet not changing many of the rulings of those before him especially Fadak, Khums, Taraweed etc.. they invented excuses for this.
`Ali being a mighty warrior yet they claim his wife was beat in front of him (by cowards), they invented excuses for this.
Husayn went on a suicide mission yet took his family members and kids for some reason, they invented excuses for this.
12th Imam escaped out of fear yet companions are blamed for cowardice even though they returned to battlefield, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali and banu Hashim were oppressed yet at the same time were wealthy and had many lands and servants, they invented excuses for this.
Banu Umayyah invented Islamic history yet `Ali's virtues fill the books while Umayads are criticized repeatedly, they invented excuses for this.
12th Imam is savior of humanity from tyranny yet their scholars all admit he ran away from tyrants, they invented excuses for this.
`Ali is too important and greater than all prophets yet he's not mentioned in the Qur'an, they invented excuses for this.
Wives are not a part of the household but the Qur'an and Arab dictionaries say otherwise, they invented excuses for this.
Fatimah is the only daughter yet all history books mention the other daughters, they invented excuses for this.
etc....

This list can go on and on, you know what I mean. May God save us from their falsehood. I beg you brother to take a brave step and abandon the cult. I'm willing to share my whatsapp or phone so we can discuss everything in detail.


Excellent!

You talked about excuses and it reminded me of this thread:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/a-religion-of-excuses-and-reactions/
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Ijtaba

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 07:24:15 PM »
Issue 01: Narrations of Umm e Kulthum being sent to Hadhrat Umar before their Marriage: As highlighted above, the kissing was after she became his wife. As for her age, she was around ten but that's not an established fact. (She was a kid like `A'ishah was).

You did highlight this before but there are 1 or 2 narrations (authenticity unknown) where it is reported that Imam Ali (a.s) sent Umm e Kulthum alone to Hadhrat Umar's house so that Hadhrat Umar may look at her with the intention of marriage and if Hadhrat Umar was pleased with her then she was to inform Imam Ali (a.s) that Hadhrat Umar is pleased with her to take her as his wife. It was only after Hadhrat Umar's approval that the marriage was to take place. The act of Hadhrat Umar approval shown in that narration was hugging/touching her.

There are two issues here:

01. Non-Mahram girl of marriageable age should be accompanied with Mahram when going to Non-Mahram Man. Touching and Hugging non-mahram girl of marriageable age not allowed before marriage.

02. In one narration Imam Ali (a.s) said that he intended to marry his daughters to sons of Jafar (a.s). It is somewhat disliked to say to a person who has intended to marry his daughter to someone to change his intention and marry his daughter with him. (Son of Jafar was good match for Umme Kulthum as their age difference was less and both were closely related as they were cousins)

Issue 02: Is being Father-in-Law not enough for relationship? No, Hafsah's marriage means she is linked but it does not necessarily link `Umar. `Umar wished to link himself by marrying the Prophet's (saw) granddaughter.

Did not understand your point. Could you please further elaborate what you mean by necessay link?

- Hadhrat Umar was directly linked to Prophet Mohammed (s) through Hadhrat Hafsa. (Father-in-Law of Prophet)

- Whereas marrying Umm e Kulthum, Hadhrat Umar is indirectly linked to Prophet Mohammed (s) through Umm e Kulthum. (Son-in-Law of Imam Ali who is Son-in-Law of Prophet)

Issue 03: Why Umm e Kulthum daughter of Hadhrat Fatimah (s.a) and not Umamah bint Zaynab? Because `Ali's daughter was closer in lineage to the Prophet (saw) and nearer due to her father being a direct cousin. It's possible `Umar would have sought the other granddaughter if the first one rejected him.

If this was the case then why did Hadhrat Umar not ask the hand of elder daughter of Imam Ali (a.s) for marriage? Hadhrat Zaynab (s.a) was baligh, elder than Umm e Kulthum and unmarried. Why ask for younger daughter's hand in marriage when there was already unmarried elder daughter?

Issue 04: Did not understand the Hadith? The Hadith does not imply the Prophet's (saw) family are given extra credit on the day of judgement. `Umar thought of it as an honor to marry into the Prophet's (saw) family and thought that his intention of seeking nearness to the Prophet (saw) would be rewarded by God on judgement day. It is surely a blessing no? As for kinship, I'd assume the closer the person is to the Prophet (saw) the higher the honor. I mean people rub their faces with his clothes for blessings so I'd assume you'll want to marry into his family as that's even better.

I don't think marrying someone related to Prophet would be rewarded. As for honor maybe. Take for example son of Nabi Nuh (a.s) who was drown in the Flood. If a girl was to marry him seeking reward and honor would she attain that? I don't think so as ALLAH (SWT) drowned him for his disbelief and in the end he would be in Fire. No reward in the hereafter and no honor in this world. Similar is the case with Azar (Father of Nabi Ibrahim a.s) If some woman was to marry Azar seeking nearness to Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) would she attain reward and honor?

These are my assumptions and I may be wrong. Only if there could be some authentic hadiths available shedding light on this topic i.e marrying someone related to Prophet in order to seek Reward and Honor.
 
Issue 06: Disturbing - Disrespecting Umm e Kulthum: Shia hate the guts of anyone remotely associated with `Umar. They narrated in their books from Ja`far that he said: "This is a vagina forcefully taken from us." The narration implies that `Umar snatched her by force. They also narrate in al-Kafi a story that `Ali refused but `Abbas was the one who married her off to `Umar without `Ali's acceptance, the purpose of this is to show that `Ali was displeased and it was `Abbas's fault. Many such as excuses can be found in Shia books to every historical matter that contradicts their `Aqidah.

I did like to know authenticity of these narrations? I want to know if that disrespectful word for Umm e Kulthum was really used by Imam Jafar Sadiq (a.s)? or is this unauthentic narration?

And is it true that Hadhrat Abbas was the one to marry Umm e Kulthum with Hadhrat Umar? What does Ahlul Sunnah sources mention on this i.e. who was the one to marry off Umm e Kulthum - Imam Ali (a.s) or Hadhrat Abbas?

Hani

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 11:14:01 PM »
I had a book ages ago that was 2 volumes simply listing historical texts that mention the marriage. I wish I can find it since that is what is needed to research details. However, I just stumbled upon this book here:
http://www.almabarrah.net/files/5514/7665/3429/aum_kalthoom_.pdf

The above book refutes ten Shia books that were authored to cast doubts on the Mutawatir marriage. I hope it'll save me the time of looking for the other book I had.

I will try to quickly translate some info for your benefit regarding Umm Kulthum.

She was born in the Prophet's (saw) time, at around the 6th year AH.
She married `Umar at the age of 10, in the year 17 AH. After him, she married `Awn, Muhammad and `Abdullah the sons of Ja`far respectively.
She gave birth to Zayd son of `Umar by consensus and a girl called Ruqayyah. As for her other marriages, she only had a daughter from Muhammad bin Ja`far.
Zayd died before reaching 30, he lived till after 47 AH.
As for Ruqayyah, she is said to marry Ibrahim bin Nu`aym and bore him a daughter.

Several narrations and stories about her were recorded in the books, at one point she interceded on behalf of `Abdullah bin `Umar when he refused `Ali's proposal to become his governor. In another report she gets angry when Ka`b al Ahbar insults her husband `Umar. In another she complains about the time of the Fajr prayer when she says: "My husband, the commander of faithful was killed at the time of the morning prayer and so was my father."

As for the authentic narrations, the Sahih from Zayn-ul-`Abidin mentions how after the marriage `Umar was congratulated by a group of Companions and then he mentions to them the virtue and honor of marrying into the Prophet's (saw) family.

Second authentic narration is by al-Baqir with three different chains, `Umar requests to marry her but `Ali replied: "I have reserved my daughters for Ja`far's children." `Umar insists: "O `Ali, grant me her marriage as nobody intends to be a better companion to her than I do." `Ali said: "I have (married her to you)."

In one of his narrations, it is highlighted:
تزوج عمر بن الخطاب أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب، وهي جارية
تلعب مع الجواري،
He married her while she was a kid still playing with other children.

In one narration, `Ali says she is still young before he mentions that he reserved her for Ja`far's children.

In the narration of al-Hasan's children, `Ali sends his two sons to accompany her to `Umar.
فقال علي
للحسن، والحسين: »زوجا عمكما
`Ali told the two (Hasan & Husayn): "Go and marry her off to your uncle (i.e `Umar)."

As for the report where she is kissed, it seems to be from the weak ones. As this is a detail not mentioned in all authentic reports listed above to Zayn al-`Abidin & al-Baqir. It seems only a man called Ibrahim bin Mihran bin Rustum narrated these odd additions to the authentic stories and he is extremely weak.

In another narration by the great grandson of Ibn `Umar, he says that `Ali consulted Fatimah's children before marrying her daughter, they said: "Grant him the marriage." So `Ali sent her to `Umar and told her to tell `Umar: "My father sends his regards and says: We have fulfilled your wish O `Umar." So upon hearing this, `Umar hugged her and said: "Her father married her off to me!"

(Notice this happened AFTER the marriage was approved.)

As for the narration that mentions exposing/grabbing her leg, the authentic one was by Ibn `Uyaynah from al-Baqir, it states:
فان رضيت فهي امرأت
`Ali tells `Umar that he accepts to marry her to him, but insists that `Umar should see her first, he tells `Umar: "I'll send her to you, if you are pleased then she is your wife."

So, `Umar upon seeing her is pleased and accepts. Then he grabs her leg after she's become his wife.

 فمازحها

In another report, it describes this as "So he (i.e `Umar) joked with her." By this they mean grabbing the leg and she was a kid.

In the authentic report by al-A`mash:
سوف أرسلها، ف ن رضيت فهي امرأتك، وقد أنكحتك، فزينها وأرسل
بها

`Ali tells him along the lines of the above: "I shall send her, if you accept her then she is your wife as I have married her off to you." `Ali then asked them to dress her up and fix her up for marriage before sending her to him.

When he grabs her leg, she gets upset and says "If you weren't the commander of faithful I would have broken your nose!" SHe heads back to her father and complains: "You've sent me to a bad man?" `Ali replied:
 مهلا يا بنية، فانه زوجك
"Hold on O daughter, for he is your husband."

(Notice `Ali explains that her husband had a right.)

`Ali and `Umar's acceptance is clear in multiple of the above narrations and I don't have time to translate the full reports in their details. This should satisfy your first issue about the "touching".

As for `Ali reserving his daughters for Ja`far's children, then`Ali also reserves the right to change his mind. `Umar persuaded him by telling him that he would be a good companion for his daughter and `Ali accepted.

As for the link, Hafsah was linked to the Prophet (saw) through her marriage. `Umar also wanted to marry a granddaughter to be linked with the Prophet's (saw) family directly. That's how they thought of it and the more ties of kinship the better for them in their view.

Umm Kulthoum was viewed as a daughter of the Prophet (saw) since she's his daughter's daughter. `Ali's children from Fatimah were viewed as a very special case since they were the only ones the Prophet (saw) left behind.

Regarding why didn't `Umar marry Zaynab. I'll look into that later but I thought she was already married to `Abdullah.

As for marrying into the prophetic-family, it depends on the intention. If it happens out of love and nearness to the Prophet (saw) it is surely rewarded. However, if it is done for boasting and status, then there is no reward.

As for the authenticity of the Shia narrations, Insha-Allah remind me and i'll double check for you later. I know they have at least one authentic narration about the marriage.

In the Sunni narrations, it is `Ali who marries her off, in one report he asks permission from Fatimah's children but I am skeptical of this one report. `Ali's words are detailed and clear in the Sunni reports and historical books. Twelvers invented another version to counter the popular version found in all history books (the one abt `Abbas and `Umar threatening to cut `Ali's hand off if he refuses).
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 04:01:26 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Ijtaba

Re: Marriage of Hadhrat Umar with Umm e Kulthum
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2017, 08:05:09 PM »
I had a book ages ago that was 2 volumes simply listing historical texts that mention the marriage. I wish I can find it since that is what is needed to research details. However, I just stumbled upon this book here:
http://www.almabarrah.net/files/5514/7665/3429/aum_kalthoom_.pdf

The above book refutes ten Shia books that were authored to cast doubts on the Mutawatir marriage. I hope it'll save me the time of looking for the other book I had.

The book is in Arabic language. If possible can you translate important points in the book in English language so that I may also benefit from the book.

I will try to quickly translate some info for your benefit regarding Umm Kulthum.

She was born in the Prophet's (saw) time, at around the 6th year AH.
She married `Umar at the age of 10, in the year 17 AH. After him, she married `Awn, Muhammad and `Abdullah the sons of Ja`far respectively.
She gave birth to Zayd son of `Umar by consensus and a girl called Ruqayyah. As for her other marriages, she only had a daughter from Muhammad bin Ja`far.
Zayd died before reaching 30, he lived till after 47 AH.
As for Ruqayyah, she is said to marry Ibrahim bin Nu`aym and bore him a daughter.

I didn't know they had a daughter also. I searched on net for Ibrahim bin Nu`aym and Ruqayyah bint Umar but was unable to find anything about them. If you have any information about them please do share it.

Several narrations and stories about her were recorded in the books, at one point she interceded on behalf of `Abdullah bin `Umar when he refused `Ali's proposal to become his governor. In another report she gets angry when Ka`b al Ahbar insults her husband `Umar. In another she complains about the time of the Fajr prayer when she says: "My husband, the commander of faithful was killed at the time of the morning prayer and so was my father."

As for the authentic narrations, the Sahih from Zayn-ul-`Abidin mentions how after the marriage `Umar was congratulated by a group of Companions and then he mentions to them the virtue and honor of marrying into the Prophet's (saw) family.

Second authentic narration is by al-Baqir with three different chains, `Umar requests to marry her but `Ali replied: "I have reserved my daughters for Ja`far's children." `Umar insists: "O `Ali, grant me her marriage as nobody intends to be a better companion to her than I do." `Ali said: "I have (married her to you)."

In one of his narrations, it is highlighted:
تزوج عمر بن الخطاب أم كلثوم بنت علي بن أبي طالب، وهي جارية
تلعب مع الجواري،
He married her while she was a kid still playing with other children.

In one narration, `Ali says she is still young before he mentions that he reserved her for Ja`far's children.

In the narration of al-Hasan's children, `Ali sends his two sons to accompany her to `Umar.
فقال علي
للحسن، والحسين: »زوجا عمكما
`Ali told the two (Hasan & Husayn): "Go and marry her off to your uncle (i.e `Umar)."

As for the report where she is kissed, it seems to be from the weak ones. As this is a detail not mentioned in all authentic reports listed above to Zayn al-`Abidin & al-Baqir. It seems only a man called Ibrahim bin Mihran bin Rustum narrated these odd additions to the authentic stories and he is extremely weak.

In another narration by the great grandson of Ibn `Umar, he says that `Ali consulted Fatimah's children before marrying her daughter, they said: "Grant him the marriage." So `Ali sent her to `Umar and told her to tell `Umar: "My father sends his regards and says: We have fulfilled your wish O `Umar." So upon hearing this, `Umar hugged her and said: "Her father married her off to me!"

(Notice this happened AFTER the marriage was approved.)

As for the narration that mentions exposing/grabbing her leg, the authentic one was by Ibn `Uyaynah from al-Baqir, it states:
فان رضيت فهي امرأت
`Ali tells `Umar that he accepts to marry her to him, but insists that `Umar should see her first, he tells `Umar: "I'll send her to you, if you are pleased then she is your wife."

So, `Umar upon seeing her is pleased and accepts. Then he grabs her leg after she's become his wife.

 فمازحها

In another report, it describes this as "So he (i.e `Umar) joked with her." By this they mean grabbing the leg and she was a kid.

In the authentic report by al-A`mash:
سوف أرسلها، ف ن رضيت فهي امرأتك، وقد أنكحتك، فزينها وأرسل
بها

`Ali tells him along the lines of the above: "I shall send her, if you accept her then she is your wife as I have married her off to you." `Ali then asked them to dress her up and fix her up for marriage before sending her to him.

When he grabs her leg, she gets upset and says "If you weren't the commander of faithful I would have broken your nose!" SHe heads back to her father and complains: "You've sent me to a bad man?" `Ali replied:
 مهلا يا بنية، فانه زوجك
"Hold on O daughter, for he is your husband."

(Notice `Ali explains that her husband had a right.)

`Ali and `Umar's acceptance is clear in multiple of the above narrations and I don't have time to translate the full reports in their details. This should satisfy your first issue about the "touching".

I am not denying the marriage between Hadhrat Umar and Umm e Kulthum but I find narrations somewhat strange. That is to say I find it very strange that a father would sent his 10 year old daughter alone to Mahram's house for Mahram's approval of her as a wife. And when Mahram looks at her and grabs her she becomes his wife? As you can see in the narration that Umm e Kulthum gets upset when Hadhrat Umar grabbed her leg and complained to Imam Ali (a.s) for this behavior. If Umm e Kulthum was Hadhrat Umar's wife at that time she wouldn't had gotten upset. It was Imam Ali (a.s) who informed Umm Kulthum that Hadhrat Umar is her husband which shows that at the time of grabbing incident Umm e Kulthum was unaware of being wife of Hadhrat Umar.

From the narrations what I got to understand is that Imam Ali (a.s) sent Umm e Kulthum to Hadhrat Umar's house for Hadhrat Umar's approval. Any act of approval by Hadhrat Umar would had at that instant made Umm e Kultum his wife. And if the Hadhrat Umar had disapproved Umm e Kulthum then she would not had been his wife.

As for the link, Hafsah was linked to the Prophet (saw) through her marriage. `Umar also wanted to marry a granddaughter to be linked with the Prophet's (saw) family directly. That's how they thought of it and the more ties of kinship the better for them in their view.

Umm Kulthoum was viewed as a daughter of the Prophet (saw) since she's his daughter's daughter. `Ali's children from Fatimah were viewed as a very special case since they were the only ones the Prophet (saw) left behind.

...As for marrying into the prophetic-family, it depends on the intention. If it happens out of love and nearness to the Prophet (saw) it is surely rewarded. However, if it is done for boasting and status, then there is no reward.

There still exists descendants of Imam Ali (a.s) and Hadhrat Fatima (s.a) upto this day. Do they hold special position in Ummah (in terms of their nearness to the Prophet (s) biologically) that they be preferred as desirable candidates for marriage (irrespective of considering their being religious or not) than rest of the people?

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
543 Views
Last post February 24, 2015, 12:54:21 AM
by MuslimK
14 Replies
2317 Views
Last post April 07, 2015, 04:08:09 PM
by Hani
9 Replies
1469 Views
Last post April 05, 2015, 03:31:35 AM
by Optimus Prime
0 Replies
367 Views
Last post November 27, 2015, 12:52:23 AM
by MuslimK