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Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat

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Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2015, 01:37:42 AM »
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What research?

The one that's bigger better and a lot more detailed than yours because I had to read books rather than copying and pasting the same quotes from the same 2-3 scholars.

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The land doesn't belong to him?

Yes, haven't you heard? If you offer something as a Waqf it ceases to belong to you. Weird huh?


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Your three quotes

Oh wow what a discovery, and where did I say it wasn't his? I said that he offered it to the people AFTER it was his own. Allah gave it to him and he gave it to the people, too complicated right?

That's what I mean when I said you didn't read anything.

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So my question to you is this, Is Ali the best Islamic judge, yes or no?

The narration you quoted is weak sir. The entire post above from brother Moin is to show its weakness.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2015, 02:20:19 AM »
Lets go step by step and speak and first about the term "Ali is the best judge".

We see here in the authentic athaar from from Sahih Bukhari from Baba Umar.


2 - قال عُمَرُ رضي اللهُ عنه : أقرَؤُنا أُبَيٌّ، وأقضانا عليٌّ، وإنا لندَعُ من قولِ أُبَيٍّ، وذاك أن أُبَيًّا يقولُ : لا أدَعُ شيئًا سمِعْتُه من رسولِ اللهِ صلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّم، وقد قال اللهُ تعالى : { مَا نَنْسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنْسِهَا } .
الراوي : عبدالله بن عباس | المحدث : البخاري | المصدر : صحيح البخاري


Narration: Sahih.


Regarding the hadith with the so called "addition", then Sunan Ibn Majah original manuscripts did indeed have the phrase because the same hadith is found with another authentic chain in Timrizi.


 حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ عَنْ سُفْيَانَ عَنْ خَالِدٍ الْحَذَّاءِ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ مِثْلَهُ عِنْدَ ابْنِ قُدَامَةَ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ يَقُولُ فِي حَقِّ زَيْدٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْفَرَائِضِ. وأخرجه الترمذي (ج5ص665بتحقيق إبراهيم عطوة) وقال: هذا حديث حسن صحيح )

Or does Timrizi's manuscripts have the "added" phrase as well? Lol

This hadith is reported all over your books with "Ali is the best judge" now you're going to tell us that "oops the manscrupt just happen to not have this phrase".



Ibn Yahya

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2015, 02:22:39 AM »
Don't bother debating with him because he doesn't even understand how debating works. I was debating him one time on whether 'Ali was the correct person to be the Khalifah and he used the hadith where it says the best judge of this ummah is 'Ali, and I then refuted his notion that this meant 'Ali was more knowledgeable than Abu Bakr and 'Umar because in that exact same hadith (which he shockingly cut off) it declares other individuals to be the most knowledgeable in certain subjects of Shari'ah and he wouldn't let me use that against him because he doesn't have to accept our Ahadith. Half of his response to me were sarcastic remarks

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2015, 02:26:12 AM »
More hilariousness regarding their claim that Ibn Majah's manuscript was corrupted, the exact same hadith is found in another book "Ad-duafa al kabeer" with the phrase....



(2 / 158)( حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يُونُسَ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا سَلَّامٌ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا زَيْدٌ الْعَمِّيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي الصِّدِّيقِ النَّاجِي، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: " أَرْحَمُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ بِهَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَأَقْوَاهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ، وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، وَأَقْضَاهُمْ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ، وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ بْنُ عَفَّانَ، وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ، وَأَقْرَأُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ، وَأَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ وِعَاءٌ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ، وَسَلْمَانُ عَلَمٌ لَا يُدْرَكُ، وَمُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ أَعْلَمُ النَّاسِ بِحَلَالِ اللَّهِ وَحَرَامِهِ، وَمَا أَظَلَّتِ الْخَضْرَاءُ وَلَا أَقَلَّتِ الْبَطْحَاءُ، أَوْ قَالَ: الْغَبْرَاءُ، مِنْ ذِي لَهْجَةٍ أَصْدَقَ مِنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ " رِضْوَانُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِمْ قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ: لَا يُتَابَعُ عَلَى هَذِهِ الْأَحَادِيثِ، وَالْغَالِبُ عَلَى حَدِيثِهِ الْوَهْمُ، وَالْكَلَامُ عَنْهُ مَعْرُوفٌ بِغَيْرِ هَذِهِ الْأَسَانِيدِ، بِأَسَانِيدَ ثَابِتَةٍ جِيَادٍ )

The author says

 الْأَسَانِيدِ، بِأَسَانِيدَ ثَابِتَةٍ جِيَادٍ )

Its chains are proven/established and good.


There is you and moins "research".

You'll notice that the author Abu jafar Muhammad book was written in 322 and has its own manuscripts seperate from Ibn Majah.

Of course they'll claim now that Abu jafar was really a Shia in taqiyya.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 02:27:58 AM by Abu-jafar herz »

Ibn Yahya

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2015, 02:29:16 AM »
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Secondly, this report about `Ali being the best of judges is an argument against abuJay, since the same report shows that others were equal if not superior to `Ali in matters of Halal and Haram and inheritance such as Mu`adh and Zayd. Add on top that the narration says that Abu Bakr is "the most merciful man towards my nation" so how can the most merciful man be an oppressive tyrant!?

That same Hadith says that they were the most knowledgeable in those subjects, a judge, or Qadhi is supposed to be good at making judgements, technically he doesn't have to have any knowledge himself. A good judge looks at the evidence, scrutinises it and deduces which is the correct opinion. If it was to do with knowledge he would have said the 'Alim of this Ummah is 'Ali. You can't just randomly assert that he's a tyrant. Last time we debated you brought up a hadith that Abu Bakr said he would have been lost without 'Ali. A tyrant would let 'Ali speak, a tyrant would've had 'Ali killed. I don't think you shias really understand what a tyrant is because bat around the word a lot.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 03:07:30 AM by Ibn Yahya »

Ibn Yahya

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2015, 02:29:53 AM »
More hilariousness regarding their claim that Ibn Majah's manuscript was corrupted, the exact same hadith is found in another book "Ad-duafa al kabeer" with the phrase....



(2 / 158)( حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يُونُسَ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا سَلَّامٌ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا زَيْدٌ الْعَمِّيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي الصِّدِّيقِ النَّاجِي، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: " أَرْحَمُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ بِهَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَأَقْوَاهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ، وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، وَأَقْضَاهُمْ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ، وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ بْنُ عَفَّانَ، وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ، وَأَقْرَأُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ، وَأَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ وِعَاءٌ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ، وَسَلْمَانُ عَلَمٌ لَا يُدْرَكُ، وَمُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ أَعْلَمُ النَّاسِ بِحَلَالِ اللَّهِ وَحَرَامِهِ، وَمَا أَظَلَّتِ الْخَضْرَاءُ وَلَا أَقَلَّتِ الْبَطْحَاءُ، أَوْ قَالَ: الْغَبْرَاءُ، مِنْ ذِي لَهْجَةٍ أَصْدَقَ مِنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ " رِضْوَانُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِمْ قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ: لَا يُتَابَعُ عَلَى هَذِهِ الْأَحَادِيثِ، وَالْغَالِبُ عَلَى حَدِيثِهِ الْوَهْمُ، وَالْكَلَامُ عَنْهُ مَعْرُوفٌ بِغَيْرِ هَذِهِ الْأَسَانِيدِ، بِأَسَانِيدَ ثَابِتَةٍ جِيَادٍ )

The author says

 الْأَسَانِيدِ، بِأَسَانِيدَ ثَابِتَةٍ جِيَادٍ )

Its chains are proven/established and good.


There is you and moins "research".

You'll notice that the author Abu jafar Muhammad book was written in 322 and has its own manuscripts seperate from Ibn Majah.

Of course they'll claim now that Abu jafar was really a Shia in taqiyya.

Is it Sahih?

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2015, 02:37:12 AM »

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A good judge looks at the evidence, scrutinises it and deduces which is the correct opinion. If it was to do with knowledge he would have said the 'Alim of this Ummah is 'Ali.

Yes we agree to to this definition, this means that Imam Ali [as] was presented with all the evidences including the hadith that Abu Bakr brought and judged that he is wrong.

Not only that, Imam Ali [as] was one of the most knowledgeable companions according to both schools.

So you're telling me that the best judge on earth including being one of the most knowledgable people would make a mitake on a simple inheritance law and persist on it for years?

But Moulana Hani, the researcher.

And his sidekick muslim720 also known as the decimator got it right but Imam Ali [as] the best judge to ever live after the prophet got it wrong?

Come come now children.....


Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2015, 02:51:06 AM »
You said:

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We see here in the authentic athaar from from Sahih Bukhari from Baba Umar.

Great so now you rely on `Umar? I need not remind you that there is a big difference between `Umar saying this and the Prophet (saw). Also notice that `Umar thinks that Ubay is a better reciter than `Ali, do you agree with him on this? I add, that `Umar may have said this after Abu Bakr passed away, which won't serve your purpose much.

Furthermore, if  Ronaldo said that Messi is the best striker in the team, this doesn't mean he'll definitely score every time he shoots, it just means he's more likely to score than the others by a certain ratio. Simple enough for you? `Umar's statement cannot handle more than this so don't overload it with your weird conclusions.


You say:

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Regarding the hadith with the so called "addition", then Sunan Ibn Majah original manuscripts did indeed have the phrase because the same hadith is found with another authentic chain in Timrizi.
 حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ عَنْ سُفْيَانَ عَنْ خَالِدٍ الْحَذَّاءِ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ مِثْلَهُ عِنْدَ ابْنِ قُدَامَةَ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ يَقُولُ فِي حَقِّ زَيْدٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْفَرَائِضِ. وأخرجه الترمذي (ج5ص665بتحقيق إبراهيم عطوة) وقال: هذا حديث حسن صحيح )

I checked Tirmidhi's Hadith from abu Qilabah and found nothing from what you mentioned. As for what you  quoted by Ibn Qudamah it also doesn't show that this mistake is found in Ibn Qudamah's book.

I'll give you a shortcut so you don't overheat, check Risalat Ibn `Abdul-Hadi Fi Fada'il al-Sahabah. You'll realize that `Ali's addition to abu Qilabah's Hadith is none existant.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 03:02:22 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Hani

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2015, 03:01:34 AM »
Moving on to your next thing:

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More hilariousness regarding their claim that Ibn Majah's manuscript was corrupted, the exact same hadith is found in another book "Ad-duafa al kabeer" with the phrase....
(2 / 158)( حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ يُونُسَ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا سَلَّامٌ قَالَ: حَدَّثَنَا زَيْدٌ الْعَمِّيُّ، عَنْ أَبِي الصِّدِّيقِ النَّاجِي، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيِّ قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: " أَرْحَمُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ بِهَا أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَأَقْوَاهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ، وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، وَأَقْضَاهُمْ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ ، وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ بْنُ عَفَّانَ، وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ، وَأَقْرَأُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ، وَأَبُو هُرَيْرَةَ وِعَاءٌ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ، وَسَلْمَانُ عَلَمٌ لَا يُدْرَكُ، وَمُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ أَعْلَمُ النَّاسِ بِحَلَالِ اللَّهِ وَحَرَامِهِ، وَمَا أَظَلَّتِ الْخَضْرَاءُ وَلَا أَقَلَّتِ الْبَطْحَاءُ، أَوْ قَالَ: الْغَبْرَاءُ، مِنْ ذِي لَهْجَةٍ أَصْدَقَ مِنْ أَبِي ذَرٍّ " رِضْوَانُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْهِمْ قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ: لَا يُتَابَعُ عَلَى هَذِهِ الْأَحَادِيثِ، وَالْغَالِبُ عَلَى حَدِيثِهِ الْوَهْمُ، وَالْكَلَامُ عَنْهُ مَعْرُوفٌ بِغَيْرِ هَذِهِ الْأَسَانِيدِ، بِأَسَانِيدَ ثَابِتَةٍ جِيَادٍ )

Oh how nice, do you even understand that we were talking mainly about abu Qilabah's Hadith? Not this anomalous report you brought forth now? I doubt you accept a report that says that abu Hurayrah is a "container of knowledge" and that Salman's knowledge cannot be challenged, and that Mu`adh is the most knowledgeable of the people concerning Allah's Halal and Haram.

If you do accept it then let me know as it topples your entire beliefs.

However, the chain has two terrible narrators and here's what you should know about this corrupt odd version you just provided:

فَالْجَوَابُ: أَنَّ هَذَا إِسْنَادٌ ضَعِيفٌ، مُشْتَمِلٌ عَلَى رَجُلَيْنِ ضَعِيفَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا أَضْعَفُ مِنَ الآخَرِ، فَأَمَّا الأَوَّلُ فَزَيْدٌ الْعَمِّيُّ، وَهُوَ ابْنُ الْحَوَارِيِّ الْبَصْرِيُّ، قَالَ يَحْيَى بْنُ مَعِينٍ: لا شَيْءَ، وَقَالَ مُرَّةُ: ضَعِيفٌ، وَقَالَ أَبُو زُرْعَةَ: لَيْسَ بِقَوِيٍّ، وَاهِي الْحَدِيثِ، ضَعِيفٌ، وَقَالَ أَبُو حَاتِمٍ: ضَعِيفُ الْحَدِيثِ يُكْتَبُ حَدِيثُهُ، وَلا يُحْتَجُّ بِهِ، وَقَالَ أَبُو عُبَيْدٍ الآجُرِّيُّ: قِيلَ لأَبِي دَاوُدَ: زَيْدٌ الْعَمِّيُّ قَالَ: حَدَّثَ عَنْهُ شُعْبَةُ وَلَيْسَ بِذَاكَ، وَقَالَ النَّسَائِيُّ: ضَعِيفٌ، وَقَالَ أَبُو حَاتِمِ بْنِ حِبَّانَ يَرْوِي عَنْ أَنَسٍ أَشْيَاءَ مَوْضُوعَةً لا أَصْلَ لَهَا، حَتَّى يَسْبِقَ إِلَى الْقَلْبِ أَنَّهُ الْمُتَعَمِّدُ لَهَا، وَكَانَ يَحْيَى يُمَرِّضُ الْقَوْلَ فِيهِ، وَهُوَ عِنْدِي لا يَجُوزُ الاحْتِجَاجُ بِخَبَرِهِ، وَلا كَتَبة حَدِيثِهِ إِلا لِلاعْتِبَارِ، سَمِعْتُ الْحَنْبَلِيَّ يَقُولُ: سَمِعْتُ أَحْمَدَ بْنَ زُهَيْرٍ يَقُولُ: سَمِعْتُ يَحْيَى بْنَ مَعِينٍ يَقُولُ: لا يَجُوزُ حَدِيثُ زَيْدٍ الْعَمِّيِّ، وَكَانَ أَمْثَلَ مِنْ يَزِيدَ الرَّقَاشِيِّ.
وَقَالَ أَبُو أَحْمَدَ بْنُ عَدِيٍّ: عَامَّةُ مَا يَرْوِيهِ، وَمَنْ يَرْوِي عَنْهُمْ ضُعَفَاءُ هُمْ وَهُوَ عَلَى أَنَّ شُعْبَةَ قَدْ رَوَى عَنْهُ، وَلَعَلَّ شُعْبَةَ لَمْ يَرْوِ عَنْ أَضْعَفَ مِنْهُ، وَقَدْ رَوَى الإِمَامُ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ حَنْبَلٍ، وَيَحْيَى بْنُ مَعِينٍ، وَالدَّارَقُطْنِيُّ، أَنَّهُمْ حَسَّنُوا أَمْرَهُ، وَقَالُوا: هُوَ صَالِحٌ، وَكَذَلِكَ الْجَوْزَجَانِيُّ قَالَ: هُوَ مُتَمَاسِكٌ، وَالْمُتَحَصِّلُ مِنْ أَمْرَهِ أَنَّ الأَكْثَرَ عَلَى تَضْعِيفِهِ، وَعَدَمِ الاحْتِجَاجِ بِهِ، وَلَوْ لَمْ يَكُنْ فِي الإِسْنَادِ ضَعِيفٌ غَيْرُهُ، فَكَيْفَ إِذَا كَانَ فِيهِ مَنْ هُوَ أَضْعَفُ مِنْهُ، وَهُوَ سَلامٌ الطَّوِيلُ، وَهُوَ الضَّعِيفُ الثَّانِي الَّذِي فِي الْحَدِيثِ، وَهُوَ أَضْعَفُ مِنْ زَيْدٍ بِكَثِيرٍ، قَالَ أَبُو أَحْمَدَ بْنُ عَدِيٍّ: الْبَلاءُ مِنْهُ لا مِنْ زَيْدٍ.
وَقَالَ الإِمَامُ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ حَنْبَلٍ: سَلامٌ رَوَى أَحَادِيثَ مُنْكَرَةً.
وَضَعَّفَهُ عَلِيُّ ابْنُ الْمَدِينِيِّ.
وَقَالَ يَحْيَى بْنُ مَعِينٍ: لَيْسَ بِشَيْءٍ.
وَقَالَ مَرَّةً: ضَعِيفٌ لا يُكْتَبُ حَدِيثُهُ، وَقَالَ: مَنْ لَهُ أَحَادِيثُ مُنْكَرَةٌ، وَقَالَ ابْنُ عَمَّارٍ الْمَوْصِلِيُّ: لَيْسَ بِحُجَّةٍ، وَقَالَ السَّعْدِيُّ: غَيْرُ ثِقَةٍ، وَقَالَ أَبُو زُرْعَةَ: ضَعِيفٌ، وَقَالَ أَبُو حَاتِمٍ: ضَعِيفُ الْحَدِيثِ تَرَكُوهُ، وَقَالَ الْبُخَارِيُّ: تَرَكُوهُ، وَقَالَ النَّسَائِيُّ: مَتْرُوكٌ، وَقَالَ مَرَّةً: لَيْسَ بِثِقَةٍ، وَلا يُكْتَبُ حَدِيثُهُ، وَقَالَ أَبُو الْقَاسِمِ الثَّغْرِيُّ: ضَعِيفُ الْحَدِيثِ جِدًّا، وَقَالَ ابْنُ خِرَاشٍ: مَتْرُوكٌ، وَقَالَ مَرَّةً: كَذَّابُ، وَقَالَ ابْنُ الْجُنَيْدِ، وَالدَّارَقُطْنِيُّ، وَالأَزْدِيُّ: مَتْرُوكُ الْحَدِيثِ، وَقَالَ ابْنُ حِبَّانَ: يَرْوِي عَنِ الثِّقَاتِ الْمَوْضُوعَاتِ كَأَنَّهُ كَانَ الْمُتَعَمِّدَ لَهَا، وَقَالَ الْحَاكِمُ: رَوَى أَحَادِيثَ مَوْضُوعَةً، وَرَوَى لَهُ ابْنُ عَدِيٍّ أَحَادِيثَ، وَقَالَ دِعَامَةُ: مَا يَرْوِيهِ عَنْ مَنْ يَرْوِيهِ عَنِ الضُّعَفَاءِ وَالثِّقَاتِ لا يُتَابِعُهُ أَحَدٌ عَلَيْهِ، فَظَهَرَ لَنَا مِنْ أَقْوَالِ الأَئِمَّةِ، رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ، أَنَّ هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ بِهَذَا الإِسْنَادِ سَاقِطٌ لا يَجُوزُ الاعْتِمَادُ عَلَيْهِ، وَاللَّهُ الْمُوَفِّقُ لِلصَّوَابِ

Salam al-Tawil is abandoned and Zayd al-`Ami is weak.

I add, when the author says:

وَالْكَلَامُ عَنْهُ مَعْرُوفٌ بِغَيْرِ هَذِهِ الْأَسَانِيدِ، بِأَسَانِيدَ ثَابِتَةٍ جِيَادٍ

This means that this version is weak and there's other versions which are considered good according to him. You just need to prove that those versions that are good actually contain `Ali's judgement. I say The author probably means abu Qilabah's version which is the closest out of all of them to being authentic and does not contain `Ali's judgement.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 03:12:51 AM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2015, 03:55:37 AM »
Quote
Great so now you rely on `Umar? I need not remind you that there is a big difference between `Umar saying this and the Prophet (saw). Also notice that `Umar thinks that Ubay is a better reciter than `Ali, do you agree with him on this? I add, that `Umar may have said this after Abu Bakr passed away, which won't serve your purpose much.

Furthermore, if  Ronaldo said that Messi is the best striker in the team, this doesn't mean he'll definitely score every time he shoots, it just means he's more likely to score than the others by a certain ratio. Simple enough for you? `Umar's statement cannot handle more than this so don't overload it with your weird conclusions.

Your comparison of Ronaldo and Messi is laughable, because if Imam Ali [as] is indeed the best judge on earth, then it is extremely unlikely that with all the evidences presented to him he wouldn't know the ruling regarding a simple inheritance law and persist on it for years.

Regarding your statement that Umar was only saying this hadith after AB passed away then this is also an ad hoc argument without any proof just conjecture that his hadith was said when AB was in the ground nor do you have any proof that abu bakr was the best judge.  Also we shall prove this further as umar is only repeating what the prophet [saw] said.

 صلى اللَّه عليه وسلم بعث عليا قاضيا إلى اليمن ، قال : يا رسول اللَّه ، بعثتني أقضي بينهم ، وأنا شاب لا أدري ما القضاء ، فضرب رسول اللَّه صلى اللَّه عليه وسلم في صدره ، وقال : اللَّهم اهده وثبت لسانه ، قال : فوالذي فلق الحبة ما شككت في قضاء بين اثنين ، رواه أبو داود ، والحاكم ، وابن ماجه ، والبزار ، والترمذي ، من طرق عن علي أحسنها رواية البزار عن عمرو بن مرة عن عبد اللَّه بن سلمة عن علي ، وفي إسناده عمرو بن أبي المقدام ، واختلف فيه على عمرو بن مرة ، فرواه شعبة عنه عن أبي البَخْتَري ، قال : حدثني من سمع عليا ، أخرجه أبو يعلى وسنده صحيح

" The prophet [saw] sent Ali [as] as a judge to yemen, so Imam Ali [as] said : Ya Rasulallah send me as the best judge between them since I am a still young and do not know Qadha. So the prophet [saw] hit his chest and said "Oh Allah guide and establish his tongue, then Imam Ali said : by the one who split the seed I did not doubt at all judging between two people.

yuala reported this hadith with a sahih chain.

So Ali [as] tongue is the guided and established by Allah when it comes to judgement!

Quote
I checked Tirmidhi's Hadith from abu Qilabah and found nothing from what you mentioned. As for what you  quoted by Ibn Qudamah it also doesn't show that this mistake is found in Ibn Qudamah's book.

I'll give you a shortcut so you don't overheat, check Risalat Ibn `Abdul-Hadi Fi Fada'il al-Sahabah. You'll realize that `Ali's addition to abu Qilabah's Hadith is none existant.

You're mistaken, the hadith is found here in his book.

https://www.islamware.com/app/

(if the link doesn't take you directly to timirzis book, then the hadith number is 151 in Timirzi's book, if you still need help finding it let me know)

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَجِيدِ حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ الْحَذَّاءُ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ وَأَقْضَاهُمْ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلَالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ أَلَا وَإِنَّ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينًا وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ عَنْ سُفْيَانَ عَنْ خَالِدٍ الْحَذَّاءِ عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ مِثْلَهُ عِنْدَ ابْنِ قُدَامَةَ غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ يَقُولُ فِي حَقِّ زَيْدٍ وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْفَرَائِضِ

Both Timirzi as well as Ibn Majah have this hadith with the exact same chain, with Timirzi also having the phrase "Ali is the best judge among them".

Lets go over the chain found in both Ibn Majah and timirzi...

The first narrator Ibn Hajr :

محمد بن المثنى بن عبيد العنزي بفتح النون والزاي أبو موسى البصري ….ثقة ثبت

وى عنه) خ (مائة حديث وثلاثة أحاديث ومسلم سبعمائة واثنتين وسبعين حديثا

The second narrator Ibn Hajr :

عبد الوهاب بن عبد المجيد بن الصلت الثقفي أبو محمد البصري ثقة تغير قبل موته بثلاث سنين

لكنه ما ضر تغيره حديثه فإنه ما حدث بحديث في زمن التغير

The third narrator Zahabi :

الإمام الحافظ الثقة أبو المنازل البصري المشهور بالحذاء ، أحد الأعلام .

The fourth narrator Zahabi

عبد الله بن زيد بن عمرو أو عامر بن ناتل بن مالك ، الإمام ، شيخ الإسلام ، أبو قلابة الجرمي البصري . وجرم بطن من الحاف بن قضاعة ، قدم الشام وانقطع بداريا ، ما علمت متى ولد .

Shaykh Arnout says

إسناده صحيح على شرط البخاري رجاله ثقات رجال الصحيح غير علي بن المديني فمن رجال البخاري

It's chain is authentic upon the conditions of bukhari and their men are thiqaat, rijaal as-sahih except for Ali ibn medini that he is from the men of bukhari.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 04:38:52 AM by Abu-jafar herz »

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2015, 04:04:38 AM »
Quote
Oh how nice, do you even understand that we were talking mainly about abu Qilabah's Hadith? Not this anomalous report you brought forth now? I doubt you accept a report that says that abu Hurayrah is a "container of knowledge" and that Salman's knowledge cannot be challenged, and that Mu`adh is the most knowledgeable of the people concerning Allah's Halal and Haram.

If you do accept it then let me know as it topples your entire beliefs.

However, the chain has two terrible narrators and here's what you should know about this corrupt odd version you just provided:

فَالْجَوَابُ: أَنَّ هَذَا إِسْنَادٌ ضَعِيفٌ، مُشْتَمِلٌ عَلَى رَجُلَيْنِ ضَعِيفَيْنِ أَحَدُهُمَا أَضْعَفُ مِنَ الآخَرِ، فَأَمَّا الأَوَّلُ فَزَيْدٌ الْعَمِّيُّ، وَهُوَ ابْنُ الْحَوَارِيِّ الْبَصْرِيُّ، قَالَ يَحْيَى بْنُ مَعِينٍ: لا شَيْءَ، وَقَالَ مُرَّةُ: ضَعِيفٌ، وَقَالَ أَبُو زُرْعَةَ: لَيْسَ بِقَوِيٍّ، وَاهِي الْحَدِيثِ، ضَعِيفٌ، وَقَالَ أَبُو حَاتِمٍ: ضَعِيفُ الْحَدِيثِ يُكْتَبُ حَدِيثُهُ، وَلا يُحْتَجُّ بِهِ، وَقَالَ أَبُو عُبَيْدٍ الآجُرِّيُّ: قِيلَ لأَبِي دَاوُدَ: زَيْدٌ الْعَمِّيُّ قَالَ: حَدَّثَ عَنْهُ شُعْبَةُ وَلَيْسَ بِذَاكَ، وَقَالَ النَّسَائِيُّ: ضَعِيفٌ، وَقَالَ أَبُو حَاتِمِ بْنِ حِبَّانَ يَرْوِي عَنْ أَنَسٍ أَشْيَاءَ مَوْضُوعَةً لا أَصْلَ لَهَا، حَتَّى يَسْبِقَ إِلَى الْقَلْبِ أَنَّهُ الْمُتَعَمِّدُ لَهَا، وَكَانَ يَحْيَى يُمَرِّضُ الْقَوْلَ فِيهِ، وَهُوَ عِنْدِي لا يَجُوزُ الاحْتِجَاجُ بِخَبَرِهِ، وَلا كَتَبة حَدِيثِهِ إِلا لِلاعْتِبَارِ، سَمِعْتُ الْحَنْبَلِيَّ يَقُولُ: سَمِعْتُ أَحْمَدَ بْنَ زُهَيْرٍ يَقُولُ: سَمِعْتُ يَحْيَى بْنَ مَعِينٍ يَقُولُ: لا يَجُوزُ حَدِيثُ زَيْدٍ الْعَمِّيِّ، وَكَانَ أَمْثَلَ مِنْ يَزِيدَ الرَّقَاشِيِّ.
وَقَالَ أَبُو أَحْمَدَ بْنُ عَدِيٍّ: عَامَّةُ مَا يَرْوِيهِ، وَمَنْ يَرْوِي عَنْهُمْ ضُعَفَاءُ هُمْ وَهُوَ عَلَى أَنَّ شُعْبَةَ قَدْ رَوَى عَنْهُ، وَلَعَلَّ شُعْبَةَ لَمْ يَرْوِ عَنْ أَضْعَفَ مِنْهُ، وَقَدْ رَوَى الإِمَامُ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ حَنْبَلٍ، وَيَحْيَى بْنُ مَعِينٍ، وَالدَّارَقُطْنِيُّ، أَنَّهُمْ حَسَّنُوا أَمْرَهُ، وَقَالُوا: هُوَ صَالِحٌ، وَكَذَلِكَ الْجَوْزَجَانِيُّ قَالَ: هُوَ مُتَمَاسِكٌ، وَالْمُتَحَصِّلُ مِنْ أَمْرَهِ أَنَّ الأَكْثَرَ عَلَى تَضْعِيفِهِ، وَعَدَمِ الاحْتِجَاجِ بِهِ، وَلَوْ لَمْ يَكُنْ فِي الإِسْنَادِ ضَعِيفٌ غَيْرُهُ، فَكَيْفَ إِذَا كَانَ فِيهِ مَنْ هُوَ أَضْعَفُ مِنْهُ، وَهُوَ سَلامٌ الطَّوِيلُ، وَهُوَ الضَّعِيفُ الثَّانِي الَّذِي فِي الْحَدِيثِ، وَهُوَ أَضْعَفُ مِنْ زَيْدٍ بِكَثِيرٍ، قَالَ أَبُو أَحْمَدَ بْنُ عَدِيٍّ: الْبَلاءُ مِنْهُ لا مِنْ زَيْدٍ.
وَقَالَ الإِمَامُ أَحْمَدُ بْنُ حَنْبَلٍ: سَلامٌ رَوَى أَحَادِيثَ مُنْكَرَةً.
وَضَعَّفَهُ عَلِيُّ ابْنُ الْمَدِينِيِّ.
وَقَالَ يَحْيَى بْنُ مَعِينٍ: لَيْسَ بِشَيْءٍ.
وَقَالَ مَرَّةً: ضَعِيفٌ لا يُكْتَبُ حَدِيثُهُ، وَقَالَ: مَنْ لَهُ أَحَادِيثُ مُنْكَرَةٌ، وَقَالَ ابْنُ عَمَّارٍ الْمَوْصِلِيُّ: لَيْسَ بِحُجَّةٍ، وَقَالَ السَّعْدِيُّ: غَيْرُ ثِقَةٍ، وَقَالَ أَبُو زُرْعَةَ: ضَعِيفٌ، وَقَالَ أَبُو حَاتِمٍ: ضَعِيفُ الْحَدِيثِ تَرَكُوهُ، وَقَالَ الْبُخَارِيُّ: تَرَكُوهُ، وَقَالَ النَّسَائِيُّ: مَتْرُوكٌ، وَقَالَ مَرَّةً: لَيْسَ بِثِقَةٍ، وَلا يُكْتَبُ حَدِيثُهُ، وَقَالَ أَبُو الْقَاسِمِ الثَّغْرِيُّ: ضَعِيفُ الْحَدِيثِ جِدًّا، وَقَالَ ابْنُ خِرَاشٍ: مَتْرُوكٌ، وَقَالَ مَرَّةً: كَذَّابُ، وَقَالَ ابْنُ الْجُنَيْدِ، وَالدَّارَقُطْنِيُّ، وَالأَزْدِيُّ: مَتْرُوكُ الْحَدِيثِ، وَقَالَ ابْنُ حِبَّانَ: يَرْوِي عَنِ الثِّقَاتِ الْمَوْضُوعَاتِ كَأَنَّهُ كَانَ الْمُتَعَمِّدَ لَهَا، وَقَالَ الْحَاكِمُ: رَوَى أَحَادِيثَ مَوْضُوعَةً، وَرَوَى لَهُ ابْنُ عَدِيٍّ أَحَادِيثَ، وَقَالَ دِعَامَةُ: مَا يَرْوِيهِ عَنْ مَنْ يَرْوِيهِ عَنِ الضُّعَفَاءِ وَالثِّقَاتِ لا يُتَابِعُهُ أَحَدٌ عَلَيْهِ، فَظَهَرَ لَنَا مِنْ أَقْوَالِ الأَئِمَّةِ، رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُمْ، أَنَّ هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ بِهَذَا الإِسْنَادِ سَاقِطٌ لا يَجُوزُ الاعْتِمَادُ عَلَيْهِ، وَاللَّهُ الْمُوَفِّقُ لِلصَّوَابِ

Salam al-Tawil is abandoned and Zayd al-`Ami is weak.

I add, when the author says:

وَالْكَلَامُ عَنْهُ مَعْرُوفٌ بِغَيْرِ هَذِهِ الْأَسَانِيدِ، بِأَسَانِيدَ ثَابِتَةٍ جِيَادٍ

This means that this version is weak and there's other versions which are considered good according to him. You just need to prove that those versions that are good actually contain `Ali's judgement. I say The author probably means abu Qilabah's version which is the closest out of all of them to being authentic and does not contain `Ali's judgement.

It seems like you're pulling a 720 on us, the author is telling you that there exists authentic chains for this hadith, he is also quoting the same matn with the correct version. So what is the point? My point is that how can you have dozens of reports with "Ali being the best judge" found in all the versions of this hadith in different manuscripts weak and strong, then you come all of a sudden and say "this manscript didn't have the phrase Ali is the best judge".

All of these hadith are shawahid for this phrase including sahih narrations, are you implying that these narrators corrupted the hadith and added Ali is the best judge or that they took from weak material all of them at the same time? This is my point, none the less I provided you with two authentic narrations of the same hadith in two different books that has his phrase. So your theory that "Ibn majah's" manuscript is corrupted" doesn't hold any weight.

Now, do you accept that Imam Ali [as] is the best judge on earth after the prophet?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 04:15:38 AM by Abu-jafar herz »

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2015, 04:27:54 AM »
قال ابن كثير في التفسير: قال شعبة بن الحجاج، عن سماك بن خالد بن عرعرة، أنه سمع عليا- رضي الله عنه- وشعبة أيضا عن القاسم بن أبي بزة، عن أبي الطفيل، أنه سمع عليا- رضي الله عنه- وثبت أيضا من غير وجه عن أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب- رضي الله عنه- أنه صعد منبر الكوفة فقال: لا تسألوني عن آية في كتاب الله تعالى ولا عن سنة عن رسول الله- صلى الله عليه وسلم- إلا أنبأتكم بذلك. فقام ابن الكواء، فقال: يا أمير المؤمنين، ما معنى قوله تعالى: «وَالذَّارِياتِ ذَرْواً» ؟ قال علي- رضي الله عنه: الريح.

Ibn Katheer says

" Shuaba from ibn khaalid that he heard from Ali [as] and shuaba also from Al qaasim ibn abi bazza from ibn abi tufayl that he heard from Ali and it is also proven from more than one ways on Ameer al mumineen Ali ibn abi talib [as] that he ascended the pulpit in kufa and said " You do not ask me about the book of Allah nor on the sunnah of the messsenger of Allah except that I inform you of it" !

So they asked him " Ya ameer al mumineen What is the meaning of the verse  الذَّارِياتِ ذَرْواً So he responded "the wind.

Then they asked him about the verse " فَالْحامِلاتِ وِقْراً so he said the accounting.

Then they asked him about the verse فَالْجارِياتِ يُسْراً so he said, the ships.

Then they asked him about the verse فَالْمُقَسِّماتِ أَمْراً so he said, the angels.


Are you telling me that Ali [as] being described as the best judge and the one who the companions relied upon for their tafseer of both the sunnah and Qur'an didn't know what he was talking about?


Aba AbdAllah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2015, 06:11:27 AM »
Are you telling me that Ali [as] being described as the best judge and the one who the companions relied upon for their tafseer of both the sunnah and Qur'an didn't know what he was talking about?
There is NO AUTHENTIC narration which says that Ali(r.a) made tafseer of any verse of Quran to claim inheritance from Prophet Mohammad(pbuh), for his wife. Nor did he make tafseer to claim it as gift. You are just clutching at straws by forcing Sunnis to accept munkar(denounced) traditions from terrible chains to prove your flimsy argument.

As for the advice of Ali(ra), to ask him about tafseer, then he was not unique to it, Check this out:
Quote
We also find in Sahih al-Bukhari that ibn Mas`oud said:

وَاللَّهِ الَّذِي لَا إِلَهَ غَيْرُهُ مَا أُنْزِلَتْ سُورَةٌ مِنْ كِتَابِ اللَّهِ إِلَّا أَنَا أَعْلَمُ أَيْنَ أُنْزِلَتْ، وَلَا أُنْزِلَتْ آيَةٌ مِنْ كِتَابِ اللَّهِ إِلَّا أَنَا أَعْلَمُ فِيمَ أُنْزِلَتْ، وَلَوْ أَعْلَمُ أَحَدًا أَعْلَمَ مِنِّي بِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ تُبَلِّغُهُ الْإِبِلُ، لَرَكِبْتُ إِلَيْهِ

“By Allah the one and only, not one Surah descended from the book of Allah except that I know when it was revealed, nor was an Ayah from Allah’s book revealed except that I am the most knowledgeable about its cause of revelation, if I knew that anybody had more knowledge than I in Allah’s book in a location I can reach with my camel, I would have traveled to him.”

Even Imam al-Shafi`i would say as in Sunan al-Bayhaqi:

سَلُونِي مَا شِئْتُمْ أُجِبْكُمْ مِنْ كِتَابِ اللَّهِ  وَمِنْ سُنَّةِ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ

“Ask me whatever you wish, I will answer with Allah’s book and the Sunnah of Rasul-Allah (saw).”

However the crux of the matter is that, Ali(ra) gained knowledge from Abu Bakr(ra), which shows that Ali(ra) was not aware of some Islamic knowledge. Here is an example:
Quote

حَدَّثَنَا مُسَدَّدٌ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَوَانَةَ، عَنْ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ الْمُغِيرَةِ الثَّقَفِيِّ، عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ رَبِيعَةَ الأَسَدِيِّ، عَنْ أَسْمَاءَ بْنِ الْحَكَمِ الْفَزَارِيِّ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ عَلِيًّا، - رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ - يَقُولُ كُنْتُ رَجُلاً إِذَا سَمِعْتُ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم حَدِيثًا نَفَعَنِي اللَّهُ مِنْهُ بِمَا شَاءَ أَنْ يَنْفَعَنِي وَإِذَا حَدَّثَنِي أَحَدٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ اسْتَحْلَفْتُهُ فَإِذَا حَلَفَ لِي صَدَّقْتُهُ قَالَ وَحَدَّثَنِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَصَدَقَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ - رضى الله عنه - أَنَّهُ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏"‏ مَا مِنْ عَبْدٍ يُذْنِبُ ذَنْبًا فَيُحْسِنُ الطُّهُورَ ثُمَّ يَقُومُ فَيُصَلِّي رَكْعَتَيْنِ ثُمَّ يَسْتَغْفِرُ اللَّهَ إِلاَّ غَفَرَ اللَّهُ لَهُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَرَأَ هَذِهِ الآيَةَ ‏{‏ وَالَّذِينَ إِذَا فَعَلُوا فَاحِشَةً أَوْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ ذَكَرُوا اللَّهَ ‏}‏ إِلَى آخِرِ الآيَةِ ‏.‏
 Asma’ bint al-Hakam said: I heard Ali say: I was a man; when I heard a tradition from the Messenger of Allah(saw), Allah benefited me with it as much as He willed. But when some one of his companions narrated a tradition to me I adjured him. When he took an oath, I testified him. AbuBakr narrated to me a tradition, and AbuBakr narrated truthfully. He said: I heard the apostle of Allah (saw) saying: When a servant (of Allah) commits a sin, and he performs ablution well, and then stands and prays two rak’ahs, and asks pardon of Allah, Allah pardons him. He then recited this verse: “And those who, when they commit indecency or wrong their souls, remember Allah” (Al-Qur’an 3:135). (Sunan Abi Dawud #1521; Grading: Sahih).

So notice that there is proof that Ali(ra) received knowledge of Sunnah from Abu Bakr(ra), where as there is no proof that Abu Bakr(ra) received knowledge from Ali(ra). Therefore consider the matter of inheritance too one of the issues regarding which Ali(ra) and other Ahli bait weresn't aware, but they received knowledge from their Shiekh Abu Bakr.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 06:18:08 AM by Aba AbdAllah »

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2015, 06:34:00 AM »
As for the issue of bringing the issue of Ali(ra) being the best judge then this has nothing to do with the topic, because Ali(ra) didn't make any judgement, infact during his reign he kept the properties the same way they were, he didn't revoke the judgement of Abu Bakr(ra) and Umar(ra) over Fadak.

And even if it is supposed that Ali(ra) made any judgement, then since when did a judge became impeccable? The judges are prone to error, especially in cases where they aren't aware of hadeeth of Prophet(pbuh). Take example of Ali(ra) making a wrong judgement when he wasn't aware of the hadeeth.

Quote
Ja’far b Muhammad reported on the authority of his father, Muhammad b. ‘Ali b. Husain from jabir bin Abdullah:  Ali came from the Yemen with the sacrificial animals for the Prophet(saw) and found Fatimah(ra) to be one among those who had put off Ihram and had put on dyed clothes and had applied antimony. He (Hadrat’Ali) showed disapproval to it, whereupon she said: My father has commanded me to do this. He (the narrator) said that ‘Ali used to say in Iraq: I went to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) showing annoyance at Fatimah for what she had done, and asked the (verdict) of Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) regarding what she had narrated from him, and told him that I was angry with her, whereupon he(saw) said: She has told the truth, she has told the truth.(Sahi Muslim, Book 7 ,Number 2803).

So I guess arguing over Ali being the best judge itself is pointless, because Hertz needs something to keep beating behind the bush.



Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2015, 06:35:17 AM »
Quote
There is NO AUTHENTIC narration which says that Ali(r.a) made tafseer of any verse of Quran to claim inheritance from Prophet Mohammad(pbuh), for his wife. Nor did he make tafseer to claim it as gift. You are just clutching at straws by forcing Sunnis to accept munkar(denounced) traditions from terrible chains to prove your flimsy argument.

So you're saying that Imam Ali [as] when asking for Fadak for years didn't know of the existence of Surah maryam?

Lol.

Quote
As for the advice of Ali(ra), to ask him about tafseer, then he was not unique to it, Check this out:

We don't care what your book says about ibn Masud, habibi give me a sahih tradition that says Abu bakr didn't have a shadow and would talk to the angels, it doesn't change the premise of the argument. The premise if the argument is simple....

Was Imam Ali [as] extremely knowledgeable of the Qur'an and Sunnah?

And secondly at the same time as this, was Imam Ali [as] the best judge on earth including being a better judge than ibn masu'd, umar, and Ab?

You bringing me narrations about X person, and this person was also very smart, and this person was promised paradise, etc etc has no bearing whatsoever on anything I'm asking you.


Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2015, 06:40:59 AM »
Quote
As for the issue of bringing the issue of Ali(ra) being the best judge then this has nothing to do with the topic, because Ali(ra) didn't make any judgement, infact during his reign he kept the properties the same way they were, he didn't revoke the judgement of Abu Bakr(ra) and Umar(ra) over Fadak.

And even if it is supposed that Ali(ra) made any judgement, then since when did a judge became impeccable? The judges are prone to error, especially in cases where they aren't aware of hadeeth of Prophet(pbuh). Take example of Ali(ra) making a wrong judgement when he wasn't aware of the hadeeth.

Who brought this guy to speak to me?

Imam Ali [as] in your own authentic bukhari requested Fadak from Abu bakr and umar rejecting their interpretation of the hadiths they brought including their interpretation of the Qur'an.

Why do you think Hani and his buds are working so hard to weaken this hadith?

Also no one is telling you that Imam Ali [as] is masum, I'm just asking you a simple question which you haven't even answered yourself.

If Imam Ali [as] is the best judge on earth after the prophet (the meaning of a judge is someone who analyzes evidences and makes a ruling), including being one of the most knowledgeable companions to have ever lived, is it likely that he would make a mistake on a simple inheritance law and persist on this mistake for years and years?

Farid

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2015, 09:10:51 AM »
Brother Abu Ja'afar, the hadith about Ali being the best judge, also know as Hadith Arham Umati bi Umati Abu Bakr and also known as Hadith Aalamakum bil Fara'idh Zaid, is a famous hadith of Fadha'il that praises many companions, each of them excelling in a merit over the other. Yet, it was weakened by many early scholars. Ibn Abdul Hadi also wrote a book about its weakness. See Majmu' Rasa'il Al Hafith Abdul Hadi p. 45-81. Mashhoor Al Salman also wrote a book in which hr gathers all the statements of scholars that weakened it.

In short, the narrator from Anas didn't hear this hadith from him. Most narrators narrate this hadith from him from the Prophet peace be upon him. Yet, some put between them Anas, which makes the hadith seem authentic and connected.

We can discuss this in detail if you like.

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2015, 12:06:41 PM »
Before we do anything, I would like you to confirm that there is no manuscript error and they were wrong in regards to this.

Also I find it funny how Sunnis are always fast to weaken something that is in their books whenever a hadith is brought to them, they quickly jump to "the chain is not authentic".


This hadith is authentic that is found in your books, can you please prove that abdullah ibn yazid did not take this hadith from Anas ibn Malik?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 12:25:50 PM by Abu-jafar herz »

Farid

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2015, 01:20:11 PM »
Who said it was a manuscript error? I said it was an error.

Nobody weakened this hadith because Shias are using it against us. It has been weakenes in the fourth and fifth centuries by Al Daraqutni, Abu Nuaym, Al Hakim, Al Bayhaqi, and Ibn Abd Al Barr.

There is not dispute that the narrator heard hadiths from Anas, but the argument is that he didn't hear this hadith, except for the part about Abu Ubaidah.

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2015, 01:52:20 PM »
You're wrong regarding this hadith, and Inshallah it will bear clear.

1- Show me why Abi qilaaba didn't hear this hadith from Anas. (So convenient that he happen just not to hear this hadith).

2- Show me where Hakim, bayhaqi, and all these scholars you are quoting weakened the chain that I gave above.

Because many scholars from the past and present strengthen this chain, including Ibn baz, arnaut, and albani from the present day Ulema.

Regarding the manscrusipt error, then your comrades are claiming that Ibn Majah's manuscript is missing the phrase "Ali is the best judge".


So which is it boys?

Is it tadlees or manuscript error?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 01:54:20 PM by Abu-jafar herz »

 

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