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Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat

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muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2015, 02:20:01 PM »
Imam Ali [ra], as I have conceded before so as to not lose sight of the main issue, was the best judge.  The "best judge", in his best judgment, did not take back Fadak (when he could have easily done so) and he assumed the stance of Abu Bakr [ra] regarding Fadak.  Majority of Muslims have followed suit.  Shias, on the other hand, think they have a case and an even better judgment than the "best judge".

If Abu Bakr [ra] was the cause of injustice, then Imam Ali [ra] was an accomplice in this crime. 

Since Imam Ali [ra] did not take Fadak, brother Herz, was the decision due to his infallibility or independent reasoning?  Which one?

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2015, 02:23:33 PM »
These are your modern scholars opinion on this hadith, including the meaning "Ali is the best judge".


2 - أرحم أمتي بأمتي أبو بكر، وأشدهم في دين الله عمر، وأصدقهم حياء عثمان، وأقضاهم علي بن أبي طالب، وأقرؤهم أبي بن كعب، وأعلمهم بالحلال والحرام معاذ، وأفرضهم زيد بن ثابت، ألا وإن لكل أمة أمينا وأمين هذه الأمة أبو عبيدة بن الجراح.
الراوي: - المحدث: ابن باز - المصدر: حاشية بلوغ المرام لابن باز - الصفحة أو الرقم: 564
خلاصة حكم المحدث: إسناده صحيح

Ibn Baz: Its chain is sahih.

 أرحم أمتي بأمتي أبو بكر وأشدهم في دين الله عمر وأصدقهم حياء عثمان وأقضاهم علي بن أبي طالب وأقرؤهم لكتاب الله أبي بن كعب وأعلمهم بالحلال والحرام معاذ بن جبل وأفرضهم زيد بن ثابت ألا وإن لكل أمة أمينا وأمين هذه الأمة أبو عبيدة بن الجراح
الراوي: أنس بن مالك المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: صحيح ابن ماجه - الصفحة أو الرقم: 125
خلاصة حكم المحدث: صحيح

Albani : Its chain is sahih.

أرأف أمتي بأمتي أبو بكر ، وأشدهم في دين الله عمر ، وأصدقهم حياء عثمان ، وأقضاهم علي ، وأفرضهم زيد بن ثابت ، وأقرؤهم أبي ، وأعلمهم بالحلال والحرام معاذ بن جبل ، ألا وإن لكل أمة أمينا ، وأمين هذه الأمة أبو عبيدة بن الجراح
الراوي: عبدالله بن عمر المحدث: الألباني - المصدر: صحيح الجامع - الصفحة أو الرقم: 868
خلاصة حكم المحدث: صحيح

Albani says again in his jaami3 , Sahih.

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الْوَهَّابِ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْمَجِيدِ، حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدٌ الْحَذَّاءُ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّ ّرَسُولَ اللَّهِ (ص) قَالَ: " أَرْحَمُ أُمَّتِي بِأُمَّتِي أَبُو بَكْرٍ، وَأَشَدُّهُمْ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ عُمَرُ، وَأَصْدَقُهُمْ حَيَاءً عُثْمَانُ، وَأَقْضَاهُمْ عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ، وَأَقْرَؤُهُمْ لِكِتَابِ اللَّهِ أُبَيُّ بْنُ كَعْبٍ، وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْحَلَالِ وَالْحَرَامِ مُعَاذُ بْنُ جَبَلٍ، وَأَفْرَضُهُمْ زَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ، أَلَا وَإِنَّ لِكُلِّ أُمَّةٍ أَمِينًا، وَأَمِينُ هَذِهِ الْأُمَّةِ أَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ بْنُ الْجَرَّاحِ "، حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا وَكِيعٌ، عَنْ سُفْيَانَ، عَنْ خَالِدٍ الْحَذَّاءِ، عَنْ أَبِي قِلَابَةَ، مِثْلَهُ عِنْدَ ابْنِ قُدَامَةَ، غَيْرَ أَنَّهُ يَقُولُ فِي حَقِّ زَيْدٍ: " وَأَعْلَمُهُمْ بِالْفَرَائِضِ "
الحكم على المتن: صحيح
إسناده متصل ، رجاله ثقات

Muhammad abdul baaqi regarding the chain I gave you says : The judgement upon the matn is that it is sahih, the chain is connected, and its men are thiqaat.


Next is Muhammad Uthman Al-5asht, he brings us a lot of information regarding this.

يا علي لك سبع خصال، لا يحاجك فيها أحد، وكلها واهية، وأثبت منها كلها أنه (ص) بعث عليا قاضيا إلى اليمن، قال: يا رسول اللَّه، بعثتني أقضي بينهم، وأنا شاب لا أدري ما القضاء، فضرب رسول اللَّه (ص) في صدره، وقال: اللَّهم اهده وثبت لسانه، قال: فوالذي فلق الحبة ما شككت في قضاء بين اثنين، رواه أبو داود، والحاكم، وابن ماجه، والبزار، والترمذي، من طرق عن علي أحسنها رواية البزار عن عمرو بن مرة عن عبد اللَّه بن سلمة عن علي، وفي إسناده عمرو بن أبي المقدام، واختلف فيه على عمرو بن مرة، فرواه شعبة عنه عن أبي البَخْتَري، قال: حدثني من سمع عليا، أخرجه أبو يعلى وسنده صحيح

This hadith contains the dua of the prophet when he said " Ya Allah guide and make thaabit his tongue" in regards to judgement. Muhammad Uthman says that Abu yuala narrated this hadith with a sahih chain.

He goes on


أقضانا، وأبيٌّ أقرأنا، ونحوه عن أبيٍّ [ ج 1 : ص 98 ] وآخرين، وللحاكم في مستدركه عن ابن مسعود قال: كنا نتحدث أن أقضى أهل المدينة علي، وقال: إنه صحيح، ولم يخرجاه، قلت: ومثل هذه الصيغة حكمها الرفع على الصحيح. قضاء علي، وعلمه، وشجاعته، من المتواترات، فليس في الصحابة من يفوقه في ذلك

He says regarding the judgement of Ali " Sahih and he has not narrated it, this phrase's judgement is that it is be raised to sahih, the judgement of Ali, and his knowledge, and his bravery is from the mutwatiraat and there isn't any companion who surpasses him in this".



Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2015, 02:29:29 PM »
Hadith regarding Ali [as] being the best in judgement has so many chains in your books and is mutawatir that trying  to weaken this hadith is rather ridiculous and a weird tactic from you.

You can play the rijal game all you like, in fact, you can play the rijal game with any hadith you want. This is Sunnism, anything and everything has ikhtilaf in it.

This is why every time a Sunni is confronted with a narration they do not use logic and reasoning, they quickly jump to "the chain is weak". In all my years debating Sunnis this is the most common tactic.

Farid

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2015, 02:30:22 PM »
Read Bayhaqis Baab Tarjeeh Zaid bin Thabit

And chapter 27 of Maarifat Uloom Al Hadith by Al Hakim.

Unlike modern scholars, they have provided evidences to back their claims. Modern scholars gave a hukum based on the apparent chain.



Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2015, 02:35:05 PM »
Read Bayhaqis Baab Tarjeeh Zaid bin Thabit

And chapter 27 of Maarifat Uloom Al Hadith by Al Hakim.

Unlike modern scholars, they have provided evidences to back their claims. Modern scholars gave a hukum based on the apparent chain.

No you misunderstood, you said that Abi qilaaba did not hear from Anas. Can you provide evidence from Bayhaqi and Haakim where they proved this?

Can you yourself prove that Abi qilaaba did not hear from Anas?

We can play "this scholar said this" game back and forth it won't help you. Bring the evidence with the nass or accept the chain as sahih like your scholars did.

Because many early scholars far better than Al haakim and bayhaqi graded this chain sahih.

Modern scholars do research on the early scholars and see what they say regarding hadith, I'm sure you'd agree so your claim is baseless.

Also modern scholars were not the only ones who graded this hadith as sahih many early scholars did as well.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 03:35:29 PM by Abu-jafar herz »

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2015, 02:39:10 PM »
Heres chapter 27 of Marifat al ulum by al hakim

النَّوْعُ الثَّامِنُ مِنْ هَذَا الْعِلْمُ , مَعْرِفَةُ الْمَرَاسِيلِ الْمُخْتَلَفِ فِي الاحْتِجَاجِ بِهَا , وَهَذَا النَّوْعُ مِنْ عِلْمِ الْحَدِيثِ صَعْبٌ , قَلَّ مَا يَهْتَدِي إِلَيْهِ إِلا الْمُتَبَحِّرُ فِي هَذَا الْعِلْمِ , فَإِنَّ مَشَايِخَ الْحَدِيثِ لَمْ يَخْتَلِفُوا فِي أَنَّ الْحَدِيثَ الْمُرْسَلَ هُوَ الَّذِي يَرْوِيهِ الْمُحَدِّثُ بَأَسَانِيدَ مُتَّصِلَةٍ إِلَي التَّابِعِيِّ ، فَيَقُولُ التَّابِعِيُّ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهُ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ , وَأَكْثَرُ مَا تُرْوَى الْمَرَاسِيلُ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْمَدِينَةِ عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيِّبِ , وَمِنْ أَهْلِ مَكَّةَ عَنْ عَطَاءِ بْنِ أَبِي رَبَاحٍ , وَمِنْ أَهْلِ مِصْرَ عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ أَبِي هِلالٍ , وَمِنْ أَهْلِ الشَّامِ عَنْ مَكْحُولٍ الدِّمَشْقِيِّ , وَمِنْ أَهْلِ الْبَصْرَةِ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ أَبِي الْحَسَنِ , وَمِنْ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ يَزِيدَ النَّخَعِيِّ , وَقَدْ يُرْوَى الْحَدِيثُ بَعْدَ الْحَدِيثِ عَنْ غَيْرِهِمْ مِنَ التَّابِعِينَ , إِلا أَنَّ الْغَلَبَةَ لِرِوَايَاتِهِمْ ، وَأَصَحَّهَا مَرَاسِيلُ سَعِيدُ بْنُ الْمُسَيِّبِ , وَالدَّلِيلُ عَلَيْهِ أَنَّ سَعِيدًا مِنْ أَوْلادِ الصَّحَابَةِ , فَإِنَّ أَبَاهُ الْمُسَيِّبَ بْنَ حَزْنٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِ الشَّجَرَةِ وَبَيْعَةِ الرِّضْوَانِ , وَقَدْ أَدْرَكَ سَعِيدٌ عُمَرَ وَعُثْمَانَ وَعَلِيًّا وَطَلْحَةَ وَالزُّبَيْرَ إِلَى آخِرِ الْعَشْرَةِ , وَلَيْسَ فِي جَمَاعَةِ التَّابِعِينَ مَنْ أَدْرَكَهُمْ ، وَسَمِعَ مِنْهُمْ غَيْرُ سَعِيدٍ وَقَيْسِ بْنِ أَبِي حَازِمٍ , ثُمَّ مَعَ هَذَا فَإِنَّهُ فَقِيهُ أَهْلِ الْحِجَازِ وَمُفْتِيهِمْ ، وَأَوَّلُ فُقَهَاءِ السَّبْعَةِ الَّذِينَ يَعُدُّ مَالِكُ بْنُ أَنَسٍ إِجْمَاعَهُمْ إِجْمَاعَ كَافَّةِ النَّاسِ.

أَبَا عَبَّاسٍ مُحَمَّدَ بْنَ يَعْقُوبَ ، يَقُولُ : سَمِعْتُ الْعَبَّاسَ الدُّورِيَّ ، يَقُولُ : سَمِعْتُ يَحْيَى بْنَ مَعِينٍ ، يَقُولُ : " أَصَحُّ الْمَرَاسِيلِ مَرَاسِيلُ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْمُسَيِّبِ ، وَأَيْضًا فَقَدْ تَأَمَّلَ الأَئِمَّةُ الْمُتَقَدِّمُونَ مَرَاسِيلَهُ ، فَوَجَدُوهَا بِأَسَانِيدَ صَحِيحَةٍ ، وَهَذِهِ الشَّرَائِطُ لَمْ تُوجَدْ فِي مَرَاسِيلِ غَيْرِهِ ، فَهَذِهِ صِفَةُ الْمَرَاسِيلِ عِنْدَ أَهْلِ الْحَدِيثِ ".

أَبُو الْعَبَّاسِ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَعْقُوبَ ، حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ حَنْبَلَ ، قَالَ : وَجَدْتُ بِخَطِّ أَبِي ، ثنا الْحَسَنُ بْنُ عِيسَى مَوْلَى ابْنِ الْمُبَارَكِ ، قَالَ " حَدَّثْتُ ابْنَ الْمُبَارَكِ بِحَدِيثٍ لأَبِي بَكْرِ بْنِ عَيَّاشٍ ، عَنْ عَاصِمٍ ، عَنِ النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ، قَالَ : حَسَنٌ.

فَقُلْتُ لابْنِ الْمُبَارَكِ : إِنَّهُ لَيْسَ عَنْهُ إِسْنَادٌ.

فَقَالَ : إِنَّ عَاصِمًا يَحْتَمِلُ لَهُ أَنْ يَقُولَ : قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ".

قَالَ : فَغَدَوْتُ إِلَى أَبِي بَكْرٍ ، فَإِذَا ابْنُ الْمُبَارَكِ قَدْ سَبَقَنِي إِلَيْهِ وَهُوَ إِلَى جَنْبِهِ فَظَنَنْتُهُ قَدْ سَأَلَهُ عَنْهُ.

قَالَ الْحَكَمُ : فَأَمَّا مَشَايِخَ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ فَكُلُّ مَنْ أَرْسَلَ الْحَدِيثِ عَنِ التَّابِعِينَ وَأَتْبَاعِ التَّابِعِينَ وَمَنْ بَعْدَهُمْ مِنَ الْعُلَمَاءِ فَإِنَّهُ عِنْدَهُمْ مُرْسَلٌ مُحْتَجٌّ بِهِ ، وَلَيْسَ كَذَلِكَ عِنْدَنَا ، فَإِنَّ مُرْسَلُ أَتْبَاعِ التَّابِعِينَ عِنْدَنَا مُعْضَلٌ ، وَسَيَأْتِي ذِكْرُهُ وَشَرْحُهُ بَعْدَ هَذَا إِنْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ.


I just read it, it doesn't even talk about Abi qilaaba.

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #46 on: July 28, 2015, 02:48:03 PM »
Bayhaqis book

11862 [ ص: 210 ] باب ترجيح قول زيد بن ثابت على قول غيره من الصحابة - رضي الله عنهم أجمعين - في علم الفرائض .

( أخبرنا ) أبو الحسين بن بشران العدل ببغداد ، أنا أبو جعفر محمد بن عمرو بن البختري الرزاز ، ثنا حنبل بن إسحاق ، ثنا قبيصة بن عقبة ، ثنا سفيان بن سعيد ، عن خالد ، وعاصم ، عن أبي قلابة ، عن أنس بن مالك ، قال : قال رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم : " أرحم أمتي أبو بكر ، وأشدهم في دين الله عمر ، وأصدقهم حياء عثمان ، وأفرضهم زيد ، وأقرؤهم أبي ، وأعلمهم بالحلال والحرام معاذ ، وإن لكل أمة أمينا ، وأمين هذه الأمة أبو عبيدة بن الجراح " .

وكذلك رواه قطبة بن العلاء ، عن سفيان ، عن خالد الحذاء ، عن أبي قلابة ، عن أنس موصولا .

وكذلك رواه وهيب بن خالد ، وعبد الوهاب بن عبد المجيد الثقفي ، عن خالد الحذاء موصولا .

He says that the chain with qutba ibn 3la2, from sufyan from khalid from Abi qilaaba from Anas is connected.

He also says again that the chain with waheeb ibn khaalid and abdul wahaab from khalid is connected.

Bayhayi is disgareeing with you, he is saying that Abi qilaaba from Anas is not disconnected.


muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #47 on: July 28, 2015, 03:13:19 PM »
Herz, on ShiaChat, is gloating that he is going Godzilla mode on us.  I am glad he thinks he is tasting some success after hitting rock bottom on ShiaChat.  He did not even know that Fadak was Fay.

For the moment, I am suspended from ShiaChat because of what I said - it is understandable, I have no complains - so allow me to bring everyone's attention back to the topic at hand.  FADAK!

Even if we concede that Imam Ali [ra] was the best judge, how does that prove anything?  In fact, the best judge never reclaimed Fadak, even when he had all the power to do so.

Obviously, by stretching this out, Herz wants to prove that he knows better than the best judge.


Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #48 on: July 28, 2015, 03:23:49 PM »
Here is my very first post on that thread....

Was Fadak the property of Rasulallah (saw) and how was it granted to the prophet (saw) as “fay”?

The famous Shafii Mujtahid who the current school relies upon today for mutamad rulings Imam al nawawi says the following in his famous sharh:
 
وكذلك نصف أرض فدك صالح أهلها بعد فتح خيبر على نصف أرضها وكان خالصا له وكذلك ثلث أرض وادي القرى أخذه في الصلح حين صالح أهلها اليهود وكذلك حصنان من حصون خيبر…. فكانت هذه كلها ملكا لرسول الله خاصة لا حق فيها أحد غيره
 
“Half the Land of Fadak, which was given by the Jews following the peace treaty, was purely the property of Rasool Allah (s). Similarly, one third of the Valley of Qura which was given by the Jews after the peace treaty and two forts of Khayber…all these were the exclusive properties of the Prophet (s) and no one else had a share of it”.


I never said that Fadak isn't Fay habibi.

I said that the narration you're quoting from Al-Kafi isn't talking about Fadak, its talking about fay that has remained with the prophet [saw] until his death which then goes to Imam Ali [as].

However the Shia don't believe that Fadak remained with the prophet [saw] until his death, we believe he gave it away, thus this hadith isn't talking about Fadak.

I never said that Fadak isn't fay, the problem is 720 you have a reading disorder.

Also let Farid and Hani speak, just sit down.

Farid

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2015, 03:25:58 PM »
How about you try again?

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2015, 03:27:36 PM »
Why did they suspend you?

muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2015, 03:49:39 PM »
Here is what you said in post # 172:

"The hadith isn't talking about Fadak, this hadith is under the chapter title of Khums and is talking about that property which the prophet has in his possession from Fai and during his death [saw]."

You said that in response to the following narration:
Abu Abdallah (a.s) said:”Al anfal is such property for the acquisition of which no camels or horses are use and no armed expeditions are undertaken.  It is the property that may come as a result of negotiated settlement or certain people would give with their own hands, may come from a barren land or from inside the valleys.  Such properties belong to the Messenger of Allah and it will belong to the Imam(leader) after the Messenger of Allah.  The Imam(leader) will spend them as he may consider proper.”(Al Kafi, Chapter The Fay’, al-Anfal, al-Khums, its rules and the properties subject to al-Khums, page 186).[Majlisi in Mirat al Uqul vol 6, page 255 graded it as Hasan(good)]

There is no evidence that Fadak was ever managed by anyone else other than the Prophet [saw], up until his death, therefore, it never left his possession.  Hence, it leaves no room for any "gifting" argument.  A transaction through which you give a certain something to someone while maintaining possession of it does not fit the definition of a gift.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Lastly, try not to refer to me as "habibi" after having called me "Nasibi720" on ShiaChat.

muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2015, 03:51:06 PM »

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2015, 03:54:25 PM »
This is why I don't like speaking to you, you have 0 reading comprehension.

Quote
Here is what you said in post # 172:

"The hadith isn't talking about Fadak, this hadith is under the chapter title of Khums and is talking about that property which the prophet has in his possession from Fai and during his death [saw]."

You said that in response to the following narration:
Abu Abdallah (a.s) said:”Al anfal is such property for the acquisition of which no camels or horses are use and no armed expeditions are undertaken.  It is the property that may come as a result of negotiated settlement or certain people would give with their own hands, may come from a barren land or from inside the valleys.  Such properties belong to the Messenger of Allah and it will belong to the Imam(leader) after the Messenger of Allah.  The Imam(leader) will spend them as he may consider proper.”(Al Kafi, Chapter The Fay’, al-Anfal, al-Khums, its rules and the properties subject to al-Khums, page 186).[Majlisi in Mirat al Uqul vol 6, page 255 graded it as Hasan(good)]

There is no evidence that Fadak was ever managed by anyone else other than the Prophet [saw], up until his death, therefore, it never left his possession.  Hence, it leaves no room for any "gifting" argument.  A transaction through which you give a certain something to someone while maintaining possession of it does not fit the definition of a gift.  You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Lastly, try not to refer to me as "habibi" after having called me "Nasibi720" on ShiaChat.

I said the hadith isn't talking about Fadak, its talking about fay that remains with the prophet until he passes away.

Fadak did not remain with the prophet until he passed away.

Thus it concludes, the hadith isn't talking about Fadak.

Do you understand now rain man?

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2015, 03:57:11 PM »
Hani already admitted that the prophet [saw] owned and gave away Fadak.

So you're arguing with me nothing. :)

If he owned and gave away Fadak to the people on the order of Allah, then there is nothing stopping him from giving it to Fatima [as] on the order of Allah.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 03:58:44 PM by Abu-jafar herz »

Abu-jafar herz

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2015, 04:14:51 PM »
Hani says:

Quote
The fact that he's quoting this chain and claiming "authentic" shows deep bias and proves that he isn't qualified to even research:

قرأت على الحسين بن يزيد الطحان ، حدثنا : سعيد بن خثيم ، عن فضيل ، عن عطية ، عن أبي سعيد

The chain which claims that this land was gifted to Fatimah is composed of the following men:

Husayn
Sa`eed
Fudayl
`Atiyyah

All four men were Koufan and therefore Shiite in their beliefs. This on its own would be enough to cast doubt on the content of whatever they're going to narrate about Fadak.

Since abuJay is accepting of Ibn Hajar's opinions suddenly, let's rely on Ibn Hajar to see what he says about these four men.

Husayn: Ibn Hajar doesn't even mention him, the only opinion I spotted was abu Hatim's in al-Tahdheeb who said "Layyin" meaning "His narration has weakness(softness)."

Sa`eed: Truthful, said to be Shia, has mistakes.

Fudayl: Truthful, makes errors, said to be Shia.

`Atiyyah: Truthful, makes a lot of mistakes, he was a Shia who did Tadlees.

So abuJay's "authentic chain" about a matter related to banu Hashim is composed of four Koufan Shiites narrating what supports their innovation. A man who has weakness in his narrations reporting from a man who has mistakes in his narrations, who in turn narrates from a man who makes errors in narrating, who finally relates this story from a man who makes plenty of mistakes in his reports.

I'd feel ashamed if this were a chain I relied upon to prove my fragile beliefs but shame is a rare commodity it seems.

(Yes, the chain is terrible).

First narrator Hussayn

ذكره ابْن حبان في الثقات

Ibn Hibaan mentions him in his thiqaat.

Second narrator Saeed
يَحْيَى بْن معين : ثقة

Yahya ibn maeen: Thiqa

Third narrator Fudhayl

وثقه سفيان بن عيينة ، ويحيى بن معين

Yahya ibn maeen and Sufyan say he's thiqa.

Fourth narrator Atiya

Yaha Ibn maeen gives him tawtheeq, Timrizi includes him in an authentic chain, many other scholars give him tawtheeq.

Regarding the contradicting reports that yahya ibn maeen said he is weak, than these reports are weak.

Ibn Hajr said he is saduq but does tadlees.

Regarding the accusation that he did tadlees than this has already been answered that in fact that he didn't do tadlees. They accused him of making tadlees from al-kalbi as already mentioned on the other forum.








« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 04:17:46 PM by Abu-jafar herz »

muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2015, 04:28:34 PM »
Fadak did not remain with the prophet until he passed away.

WHAT?  Then please explain this narration in the light of what you said.

It has been narrated on the authority of Umar, who said: The properties abandoned by Banu Nadir were the ones which Allaah bestowed upon His Prophet for which no expedition was undertaken either with cavalry or camelry.  These properties were particularly meant for the Prophet (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam).  He would meet the annual expenditure of his family from the income thereof, and would spend what remained for purchasing horses and weapons as preparation for Jihad.  (Sahih Muslim, hadith 4347)

The Prophet [saw], by your logic, would go to Fatima [ra] asking for yearly sustenance for himself and his wives [ra]? 

Furthermore, your speculation holds no weight in the face of the following narration:

"The Apostle of Allah received three things exclusively to himself: Banu an-Nadir, Khaybar and Fadak. The Banu an-Nadir property was kept for his emergent needs, Fadak for travellers, and Khaybar was divided by the Apostle of Allah into three sections: two for Muslims, and one as a contribution for his family. If anything remained after making the contribution of his family, he divided it among the poor Emigrants."  (Sunan Abi Dawood Book 19, Number 2961)

muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2015, 04:29:37 PM »
Hani already admitted that the prophet [saw] owned and gave away Fadak.

I would like to see where he made such an admission.  Furthermore, you are trying make it appear as though we disagree over Fadak whereas you (Shias) cannot argue without flip-flopping between "gift" and "inheritance", a dichotomy.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 05:04:49 PM by muslim720 »

Aba AbdAllah

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2015, 04:57:00 PM »


Fourth narrator Atiya

Yaha Ibn maeen gives him tawtheeq, Timrizi includes him in an authentic chain, many other scholars give him tawtheeq.

Regarding the contradicting reports that yahya ibn maeen said he is weak, than these reports are weak.

Ibn Hajr said he is saduq but does tadlees.

Regarding the accusation that he did tadlees than this has already been answered that in fact that he didn't do tadlees. They accused him of making tadlees from al-kalbi as already mentioned on the other forum.
Atiyya awfi has been declared by Giant Sunni rijalists. He has been weakened by more than 40 Scholars, none but only a biased innovator tries to argue that Atiyya is reliable, even after seeing ample evidence proving his weakness.

The weakness of atiyya is of two types, first is he was mudallis, second is that  he was weak(in memory due to which he used to make excessive mistakes).

The weakness of Atiyya is explained(mufassar), hence it takes over the praise(tadeel) given to him. Jarh Mufassar takes over tadeel.

As for the issue of him being Mudallis, then scholars of Ahle Sunnah have accepted, even Ibn Hajr asqalani, who have included atiyya in tabqat mudalliseen.

As for Kalbi being the one exposing Atiyya awfi then both Kalbi and Atiyya were Shiites, and Atiyya was Kalbi's student, so for Sunnis this is indeed acceptable.

Now you might argue that why are we accepting or why did the big Sunni scholars like ibn hajar accept the testimony of kalbi? The answer is that, the narrations of Atiyya are a proof in itself. You will find Atiyya attributing strange or odd reports to Abu Saeed(ra), which you won't find from any of his other students. Which is a real proof that Kalbi was right when he said Atiyya was Mudallis.

muslim720

Re: Most Recent Fadak Discussion on ShiaChat
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2015, 05:25:44 PM »
Also, let us not forget that the narration by Attiya is also rejected in the light of its content.  It says that after Surah Al-Israa verse 26 was revealed, the Prophet [saw] gave Fadak to Fatima [ra].  The verse was revealed in Mecca since it occurs in a Meccan surah.  Nearly all scholars, with the exception of Shia scholars (surprise surprise), agree that the verse was revealed in Mecca.

Therefore, the report is rejected based on its chain and matn.


 

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