TwelverShia.net Forum

Mufid insults Ja`far's children

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hani

Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« on: October 28, 2015, 12:10:45 AM »
Salam,


While reading al-Bihar by al-Majlisi, I saw him quote from al-Mufid a passage where he attacks `Abdullah bin Ja`far and Muhammad bin Ja`far.


He did this to refute the Shia who believed in the Imamah of `Abdullah and Muhammad. (Refer Bihar 37/15)


[...However, Muhammad bin Ja`far rebelled with the sword after his father and called for his own Imamah(leadership) and adopted the title of Commander of the faithful(Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen) although none of those who rebelled from the descendants of abu Talib accepted this title. There is no difference among the Imami Shia that whoever accepts such a title after Ameer-ul-Mu'mineen (as) has committed a great sin so how then can such a man be upon the Sunnah of our messenger (saw)...]


[...The Imami Shia who believe in Musa's Imamah have consensus that `Abdullah bin Ja`far had issues in his faith, this is because he used to adopt the Madhab of the Murji'ah(Sunnies) who regard `Ali and `Uthman as equals... And he claimed Imamah after his father so he was tested with small matters and he failed to answer so what more can we present to prove that this man can't be an Imam?...]


So notice here, two of Ja`far al-Sadiq's children, one was said to be a Sunni literally as he doesn't favor `Ali over `Uthman nor `Uthman over `Ali, al-Mufid says this was Mutawatir according to Imamis, the Imam himself does Taqiyyah around his son as al-Mufid said and becomes silent whenever `Abdullah enters the room. (Rafidah used to call Ahlul-Sunnah Murji'ah as that word for them means anyone who prefers the Shaykhayn over `Ali. For the rest of the nation the word Murji'ah refers to another sect.) Then another son is a sinful liar who claims to be the Imam and also steals the sacred titles of `Ali ibn abi Talib (In other words he's also a Sunni or a Zaydi at best).


I ask, did Ja`far al-Sadiq's two children not know that he was the divine Imam and that he appointed Musa as his successor?


How dumb can you be?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 08:33:09 PM by Hani »
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimK

  • *****
  • Total likes: 236
  • +8/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2015, 02:55:04 AM »
Walaikum Salam wr wb,

Interesting find! Thanks for sharing.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Rationalist

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2015, 03:19:06 AM »
Ibn Babawayh also has a ahadith where its claims that Imam Jafar disowned this son. Ironically Imam Jafar's Kuyna is Abu Abdullah.

matpau_83

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2015, 06:30:22 AM »
apparently, he's very dumb..

Hani

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2015, 09:15:53 PM »
I made it into an article. I also added another passage here:
http://twelvershia.net/2015/03/18/history-of-the-alawite-revolutions-contradicts-imamah/

Even the popular Twelver scholar al-Mufid admits this, when he refutes a Waqifi Shia who claims that all those men from Ahlul-Bayt who rebelled never announced their leadership and that they were only deputies on behalf of Musa al-Kadhim, al-Mufid rejects this as quoted in Bihar-ul-Anwar 37/18:
[As for the one who claims that al-Rida (as) and all those (who who rebelled) after him were simply deputies for abi al-Hasan Musa (as), and that they didn’t claim authority for themselves, then this is the statement of an ignorant who is stubborn because the supporters of those men (who rebelled) from the Shia were pure Zaydi and even from the non-Shia, thus whoever investigates and observes will know for a fact that they were falsely usurping the Imamah]
Meaning, al-Mufid admits that those who rebelled were in fact impostors according to him and their supporters were deviant. How can he then call himself a lover of Ahlul-Bayt is beyond me when he only loves twelve and insults the rest as impostors.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2015, 03:37:07 AM »
Shaykh Mufid also took a Nasibi leaning when he added a Rafidi narration in  his ahadith collection al Amali on how Imam Zayd's victory would have harmed the 12er Shia sect. Later he changed his mind and said he didn't claim Imamate.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2017, 06:46:15 PM »
Actually, how dumb can you be? Seriously, what is wrong with the nasibi mind?

So it's impossible for the son of a ma'soom or someone in the same family of a ma'soom to be a deviant or a kafir?

We have entire people who rejected clear evidence and rejected Prophets, and we're surprised about the son of a ma'soom. Lol.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hani

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2017, 11:47:25 PM »
Actually, how dumb can you be? Seriously, what is wrong with the nasibi mind?

So it's impossible for the son of a ma'soom or someone in the same family of a ma'soom to be a deviant or a kafir?

We have entire people who rejected clear evidence and rejected Prophets, and we're surprised about the son of a ma'soom. Lol.

Except they weren't Kouffar, each sect ascribed itself to a person and insulted the other. And it's not just "one" son. Renowned Shia Shaykh Muhammad Taqi al-Tusturi for example writes:

أنّ أكثر الموسوية من غير ولد الرضا عليه‌السلام كانوا قائلين بالوقف حيث خرج عنهم الأمر ، كما أنّ أكثر بني الحسن عليه‌السلام حيث خرج عنهم الأمر كانوا عامّية أو زيدية. وكذلك باقي ولد المعصومين عليهم‌السلام من غير المعصوم

[The majority of Musa's (i.e al-Kadhim) descedants except those of al-Rida were of the opinion that Imamah stopped (i.e at Musa) because they were ousted from authority. Similarly, the majority of al-Hasan's (i.e bin `Ali) children because they were also ousted, were primarily Sunnies or Zaydies. The same can be said about the rest of the children of the infallible who aren't infallible.]

Source: Risalah fi Tawarikh al-Nabi wal-Aal.

In other words, this God forsaken sect you ascribe to, pretty much non of Ahlul-Bayt held its beliefs, so your scholars accused the majority of Ahlul-Bayt of hypocrisy and of rejecting this magical Imamah belief due to greed for power.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

MuslimK

  • *****
  • Total likes: 236
  • +8/-0
  • یا مقلب القلوب ثبت قلبی علی دینک
    • Refuting Shia allegations everywhere
  • Religion: Sunni
Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 11:57:10 PM »
^ and that makes them the biggest Nawasib.
در خلافت میل نیست ای بی‌خبر
میل کی آید ز بوبکر و عمر
میل اگر بودی در آن دو مقتدا
هر دو کردندی پسر را پیشوا

عطار نِیشابوری

www.Nahjul-Balagha.net | www.TwelverShia.net | www.ghadirkhumm.com

Hani

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2017, 12:03:32 AM »
^ and that makes them the biggest Nawasib.

No no, we didn't insult them, so we're the Nawasib, if you insult them you are a pious Twelver.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2017, 04:31:28 AM »
Actually, how dumb can you be? Seriously, what is wrong with the nasibi mind?

So it's impossible for the son of a ma'soom or someone in the same family of a ma'soom to be a deviant or a kafir?

We have entire people who rejected clear evidence and rejected Prophets, and we're surprised about the son of a ma'soom. Lol.

Except they weren't Kouffar, each sect ascribed itself to a person and insulted the other. And it's not just "one" son. Renowned Shia Shaykh Muhammad Taqi al-Tusturi for example writes:

أنّ أكثر الموسوية من غير ولد الرضا عليه‌السلام كانوا قائلين بالوقف حيث خرج عنهم الأمر ، كما أنّ أكثر بني الحسن عليه‌السلام حيث خرج عنهم الأمر كانوا عامّية أو زيدية. وكذلك باقي ولد المعصومين عليهم‌السلام من غير المعصوم

[The majority of Musa's (i.e al-Kadhim) descedants except those of al-Rida were of the opinion that Imamah stopped (i.e at Musa) because they were ousted from authority. Similarly, the majority of al-Hasan's (i.e bin `Ali) children because they were also ousted, were primarily Sunnies or Zaydies. The same can be said about the rest of the children of the infallible who aren't infallible.]

Source: Risalah fi Tawarikh al-Nabi wal-Aal.

In other words, this God forsaken sect you ascribe to, pretty much non of Ahlul-Bayt held its beliefs, so your scholars accused the majority of Ahlul-Bayt of hypocrisy and of rejecting this magical Imamah belief due to greed for power.

Yea, too bad. Even if the whole world including their closest sons disbelieved in them, they are the 12 Imams (as) who Allah (swt) has appointed as the successors of the Prophet (saww). Whoever is with them is a mu'min, whoever rejects them will be taking a one way ticket to Jahannam.

It seems to me you are incapable of believing that people can reject the truth even after all the evidence in the world even if they are family members.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2017, 04:42:10 AM »
^ and that makes them the biggest Nawasib.

A nasibi is someone who has declared animosity towards the infallibles, not someone who has declared animosity towards their family members.

The Imams (as) are the asl, their family members are either good or bad based on their iman and actions - just like anyone else.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2017, 04:45:15 AM »
^ and that makes them the biggest Nawasib.

A nasibi is someone who has declared animosity towards the infallibles, not someone who has declared animosity towards their family members.

The Imams (as) are the asl, their family members are either good or bad based on their iman and actions - just like anyone else.

Just to add to this, we don't have "adalat awlaad Ali" 😅😅😅
محور المقاومة والممانعة

muslim720

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2017, 05:36:49 AM »

Just to add to this, we don't have "adalat awlaad Ali" 😅😅😅

So are you conceding that the supposed "purification" (the way Shias define it) mentioned in Ayat al-Tatheer did not extend to anyone past Imam Hussain (ra)?  By the way, you just passed a judgment on your second and third Imams (ra) by saying that you do not have "adalat awlaad Ali".  So they, as a logical proceeding from your comment, could have been unjust.  Nasibi much?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 05:40:01 AM by muslim720 »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2017, 06:19:58 AM »

Just to add to this, we don't have "adalat awlaad Ali" 😅😅😅

So are you conceding that the supposed "purification" (the way Shias define it) mentioned in Ayat al-Tatheer did not extend to anyone past Imam Hussain (ra)?  By the way, you just passed a judgment on your second and third Imams (ra) by saying that you do not have "adalat awlaad Ali".  So they, as a logical proceeding from your comment, could have been unjust.  Nasibi much?

I think it is obvious what I meant - if you read my post before that - I am referring to the non-infallible members of the Family of the Prophet (s).

Had you read earlier:

"The Imams (as) are the asl, their family members are either good or bad based on their iman and actions - just like anyone else."

Your attempt is laughable
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hadrami

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2017, 11:40:35 AM »
Except they weren't Kouffar, each sect ascribed itself to a person and insulted the other. And it's not just "one" son. Renowned Shia Shaykh Muhammad Taqi al-Tusturi for example writes:

أنّ أكثر الموسوية من غير ولد الرضا عليه‌السلام كانوا قائلين بالوقف حيث خرج عنهم الأمر ، كما أنّ أكثر بني الحسن عليه‌السلام حيث خرج عنهم الأمر كانوا عامّية أو زيدية. وكذلك باقي ولد المعصومين عليهم‌السلام من غير المعصوم

[The majority of Musa's (i.e al-Kadhim) descedants except those of al-Rida were of the opinion that Imamah stopped (i.e at Musa) because they were ousted from authority. Similarly, the majority of al-Hasan's (i.e bin `Ali) children because they were also ousted, were primarily Sunnies or Zaydies. The same can be said about the rest of the children of the infallible who aren't infallible.]

Source: Risalah fi Tawarikh al-Nabi wal-Aal.
This looks really bad, so the best of guide who was better than Prophet Lut AS, Nuh AS and better than almost all Prophets could not even guide his own children. Maybe he did too much taqiyya to his own children? 😁

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2017, 12:05:34 PM »
Except they weren't Kouffar, each sect ascribed itself to a person and insulted the other. And it's not just "one" son. Renowned Shia Shaykh Muhammad Taqi al-Tusturi for example writes:

أنّ أكثر الموسوية من غير ولد الرضا عليه‌السلام كانوا قائلين بالوقف حيث خرج عنهم الأمر ، كما أنّ أكثر بني الحسن عليه‌السلام حيث خرج عنهم الأمر كانوا عامّية أو زيدية. وكذلك باقي ولد المعصومين عليهم‌السلام من غير المعصوم

[The majority of Musa's (i.e al-Kadhim) descedants except those of al-Rida were of the opinion that Imamah stopped (i.e at Musa) because they were ousted from authority. Similarly, the majority of al-Hasan's (i.e bin `Ali) children because they were also ousted, were primarily Sunnies or Zaydies. The same can be said about the rest of the children of the infallible who aren't infallible.]

Source: Risalah fi Tawarikh al-Nabi wal-Aal.
This looks really bad, so the best of guide who was better than Prophet Lut AS, Nuh AS and better than almost all Prophets could not even guide his own children. Maybe he did too much taqiyya to his own children? 😁

Speaking of Prophet Nuh (as), I am sure you know his son died a kafir? And Prophet Ibrahim (as) couldn't guide his own father (according to you lot). And most of Bani Israel was kafir yet Prophet Musa (as) lived most of his life with them.

On the other hand, nasibis 😎
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Hadrami

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 12:27:31 PM »
Except they weren't Kouffar, each sect ascribed itself to a person and insulted the other. And it's not just "one" son. Renowned Shia Shaykh Muhammad Taqi al-Tusturi for example writes:

أنّ أكثر الموسوية من غير ولد الرضا عليه‌السلام كانوا قائلين بالوقف حيث خرج عنهم الأمر ، كما أنّ أكثر بني الحسن عليه‌السلام حيث خرج عنهم الأمر كانوا عامّية أو زيدية. وكذلك باقي ولد المعصومين عليهم‌السلام من غير المعصوم

[The majority of Musa's (i.e al-Kadhim) descedants except those of al-Rida were of the opinion that Imamah stopped (i.e at Musa) because they were ousted from authority. Similarly, the majority of al-Hasan's (i.e bin `Ali) children because they were also ousted, were primarily Sunnies or Zaydies. The same can be said about the rest of the children of the infallible who aren't infallible.]

Source: Risalah fi Tawarikh al-Nabi wal-Aal.
This looks really bad, so the best of guide who was better than Prophet Lut AS, Nuh AS and better than almost all Prophets could not even guide his own children. Maybe he did too much taqiyya to his own children? 😁

Speaking of Prophet Nuh (as), I am sure you know his son died a kafir? And Prophet Ibrahim (as) couldn't guide his own father (according to you lot). And most of Bani Israel was kafir yet Prophet Musa (as) lived most of his life with them.

On the other hand, nasibis 😎
dont get too excited, i quote Prophet Lut, Nuh for a reason. Shia believe imam was better than them. So much for a magnificent infallible guide 😛

PS: to be fair to his children, maybe dad did to much taqiyya and misguided them like he misguided and confused many of shia scholars with their taqiyya narration
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 12:30:11 PM by Hadrami »

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 02:22:01 PM »
Except they weren't Kouffar, each sect ascribed itself to a person and insulted the other. And it's not just "one" son. Renowned Shia Shaykh Muhammad Taqi al-Tusturi for example writes:

أنّ أكثر الموسوية من غير ولد الرضا عليه‌السلام كانوا قائلين بالوقف حيث خرج عنهم الأمر ، كما أنّ أكثر بني الحسن عليه‌السلام حيث خرج عنهم الأمر كانوا عامّية أو زيدية. وكذلك باقي ولد المعصومين عليهم‌السلام من غير المعصوم

[The majority of Musa's (i.e al-Kadhim) descedants except those of al-Rida were of the opinion that Imamah stopped (i.e at Musa) because they were ousted from authority. Similarly, the majority of al-Hasan's (i.e bin `Ali) children because they were also ousted, were primarily Sunnies or Zaydies. The same can be said about the rest of the children of the infallible who aren't infallible.]

Source: Risalah fi Tawarikh al-Nabi wal-Aal.
This looks really bad, so the best of guide who was better than Prophet Lut AS, Nuh AS and better than almost all Prophets could not even guide his own children. Maybe he did too much taqiyya to his own children? 😁

Speaking of Prophet Nuh (as), I am sure you know his son died a kafir? And Prophet Ibrahim (as) couldn't guide his own father (according to you lot). And most of Bani Israel was kafir yet Prophet Musa (as) lived most of his life with them.

On the other hand, nasibis 😎
dont get too excited, i quote Prophet Lut, Nuh for a reason. Shia believe imam was better than them. So much for a magnificent infallible guide 😛

PS: to be fair to his children, maybe dad did to much taqiyya and misguided them like he misguided and confused many of shia scholars with their taqiyya narration

You realise how stupid you sound, right? There wasn't an issue in Nuh (as) daw'ah, rather it was the fact that the people were stubborn. So really it doesn't matter who is better or not if you are dealing with a bunch of idiots.

Kind of like how I'm dealing with one right now.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Mufid insults Ja`far's children
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2017, 09:22:29 PM »
Except they weren't Kouffar, each sect ascribed itself to a person and insulted the other. And it's not just "one" son. Renowned Shia Shaykh Muhammad Taqi al-Tusturi for example writes:

أنّ أكثر الموسوية من غير ولد الرضا عليه‌السلام كانوا قائلين بالوقف حيث خرج عنهم الأمر ، كما أنّ أكثر بني الحسن عليه‌السلام حيث خرج عنهم الأمر كانوا عامّية أو زيدية. وكذلك باقي ولد المعصومين عليهم‌السلام من غير المعصوم

[The majority of Musa's (i.e al-Kadhim) descedants except those of al-Rida were of the opinion that Imamah stopped (i.e at Musa) because they were ousted from authority. Similarly, the majority of al-Hasan's (i.e bin `Ali) children because they were also ousted, were primarily Sunnies or Zaydies. The same can be said about the rest of the children of the infallible who aren't infallible.]

Source: Risalah fi Tawarikh al-Nabi wal-Aal.
This looks really bad, so the best of guide who was better than Prophet Lut AS, Nuh AS and better than almost all Prophets could not even guide his own children. Maybe he did too much taqiyya to his own children? 😁

Speaking of Prophet Nuh (as), I am sure you know his son died a kafir? And Prophet Ibrahim (as) couldn't guide his own father (according to you lot). And most of Bani Israel was kafir yet Prophet Musa (as) lived most of his life with them.

On the other hand, nasibis 😎
dont get too excited, i quote Prophet Lut, Nuh for a reason. Shia believe imam was better than them. So much for a magnificent infallible guide 😛

PS: to be fair to his children, maybe dad did to much taqiyya and misguided them like he misguided and confused many of shia scholars with their taqiyya narration

You realise how stupid you sound, right? There wasn't an issue in Nuh (as) daw'ah, rather it was the fact that the people were stubborn. So really it doesn't matter who is better or not if you are dealing with a bunch of idiots.

Kind of like how I'm dealing with one right now.

You're missing the point. Just because all those members of ahle bayt didn't fit in with your sect, you've made takfir of them & liken them to those who rejected the previous prophets.

Followers of ahle bayt?

No more like pretend followers of 14 whilst making takfir of the MAJORITY of the ahle bayt.

Twelvers:
Make takfir of the majority of the sahaba AND ahle bayt too.


 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
7 Replies
2027 Views
Last post February 24, 2015, 04:39:38 AM
by Hani
0 Replies
334 Views
Last post October 02, 2016, 12:15:48 PM
by taha taha
0 Replies
172 Views
Last post June 03, 2017, 11:41:02 PM
by Link
2 Replies
87 Views
Last post February 11, 2018, 06:52:23 PM
by Rationalist