Origin of this evil practice

[Ijtaba]

Salaam Brothers and Sisters.

I want to know when did this evil practice of Cursing Sahabas (r.a) begin i.e. in which time period and what factors led to the beginning of this practice and how this practice became prevalent in Twelver Shiism?

In the following time periods I am certain that this practice was non-existent. The time period of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) life, Caliphate of Hadhrat Abu Bakr (r.a), Caliphate of Hadhrat Umar (r.a), Caliphate of Hadhrat Uthman (r.a), Caliphate of Imam Ali (a.s), Caliphate of Banu Ummayah.

I think that this practice might had begin in Safavid Dynasty in Iran? Someone may enlighten me regarding this topic.

[Rationalist]

Can't be during the safavid period because the rafidi books pre date the safavid period.

[Rationalist]

Okay here is one example. If you are a 12er you have to consider Zurara bin Ayan to be trustworthy. Let's see what he narrates:


عشرة أمثالها ..قال: من ذكر أبا بكر وعمر فلعنهما كل غداة كتب
الله له سبعين حسنة ومحى عنه عشر سيأت ورفع له عشر درجات
رواه العياشي في تفسيره الجزء ١ الصفحة ٣٨٧
رواه الشيخ حسن بن سليمان الحلي في كتاب المحتضر الصفحة ٣٥

Zurarah reported that Imam al Sadiq (as) explained the verse (6:160) [Whoever brings a good deed shall have ten times the like thereof to his credit]: "Whoever mentions Abu Bakr and Umar, then sends la'nah on them every morning, Allah (swt) will write for him seventy hasanat (good deeds) and remove from him ten bad deeds and raise his rank by ten positions." (Tafsir Ayyashi by Shaikh al Ayyashi: Volume 1 Page 387, Mukhtasar al Basair by Shaikh Hasan b. Suleiman al Hilli: Page 35)

[Ijtaba]

Can't be during the safavid period because the rafidi books pre date the safavid period.

Ok. Is there any authentic information available regarding the origin of this practice? In some articles I have read that a Jew named ibn Saba started to abuse Sheikhan (r.a) in the time of Hadhrat  Uthman's Caliphate. I want to know if this is true and what was the reaction of Sahabas when this jew started abusing Sheikhan (r.a)?

Secondly who were the followers of this Jew as I am certain that no Muslim would had followed him as every Muslim loved and respected Hadhrat  Abu Bakr (r.a) and Hadhrat Umar (r.a).

[Ijtaba]

Okay here is one example. If you are a 12er you have to consider Zurara bin Ayan to be trustworthy. Let's see what he narrates:


عشرة أمثالها ..قال: من ذكر أبا بكر وعمر فلعنهما كل غداة كتب
الله له سبعين حسنة ومحى عنه عشر سيأت ورفع له عشر درجات
رواه العياشي في تفسيره الجزء ١ الصفحة ٣٨٧
رواه الشيخ حسن بن سليمان الحلي في كتاب المحتضر الصفحة ٣٥

Zurarah reported that Imam al Sadiq (as) explained the verse (6:160) [Whoever brings a good deed shall have ten times the like thereof to his credit]: "Whoever mentions Abu Bakr and Umar, then sends la'nah on them every morning, Allah (swt) will write for him seventy hasanat (good deeds) and remove from him ten bad deeds and raise his rank by ten positions." (Tafsir Ayyashi by Shaikh al Ayyashi: Volume 1 Page 387, Mukhtasar al Basair by Shaikh Hasan b. Suleiman al Hilli: Page 35)

Why is Zurarah bin Ayan considered trustworthy? Can you provide me some information about this man and how is he viewed in Sunni ilm ul Rijal and Shia ilm ul Rijal?

[Furkan]

With all due respect, I think this guy is playing around.

[Ijtaba]

With all due respect, I think this guy is playing around.

And what made you think that I am playing around? Does asking questions in order to gain knowledge means playing around?

[Farid]

Salam akhi

Please check this out. It contains authentic chains that Ibn Saba cursed sahaba:

http://twelvershia.net/2014/09/18/abdullah-ibn-saba-the-book/

[Ijtaba]

Salam akhi

Please check this out. It contains authentic chains that Ibn Saba cursed sahaba:

http://twelvershia.net/2014/09/18/abdullah-ibn-saba-the-book/

Thanks Farid for the link. I will visit that page. However my question is if ibn Saba started the practice of cursing then why didn't anyone take any stance against this person.

If one person speaks against present and past Muslim rulers then it is reasonable to ask that person the reason for his behavior e.g. he may feel that reason for his financial instability  is due to policies of the Government or he may feel that he is being treated as low class citizen due to his religion. I read an incident that during Caliphate of Hadhrat Umar (r.a) he was on his night visits when he heard a lady crying or speaking against the Caliph. So to know the reason of her anger Hadhrat Umar went to her house and she started preparing meal for him. During that time he asked her what had the Caliph done that made her angry. The woman said that she is widow and her children orphan and there is no way that they have any source of income and that Caliph is heedless of her problems and needs. At once Hadhrat Umar stood up and gave her money so that her needs and wants would be fulfilled and after that night he took special care of all widows and orphans under his Caliphate. The point is people do get angry and abuse but there is reason for there behavior which needs to be addressed.

But in the case of ibn Saba one can clearly see that his intentions and motives were evil i.e. to weaken and destroy Muslims from within. The thing that I want to know is when he started abusing previous and present Caliphs what actions were taken against him? And who were those people who sided with him and why did they join him? Why did Muslims at that time not fight this evil man who was spreading Fitnah and Corruption in Muslim land. Everyone knew that ibn Saba had Jewish background so it would easy to guess that cursing and spreading hatred of Caliphs is Jewish conspiracy. They should had either killed him or banished him from Muslim lands for causing Fitnah and corruption.

As far I believe no Muslim would had followed ibn Saba when he started the campaign of cursing Caliphs and Sahabas (r.a) because everyone loved and respected Caliphs and Sahabas (r.a).

Can you please tell me or provide me a link on how ibn Saba started his mission and how he achieved his purpose of inciting people against Hadhrat Uthman (r.a) which led to his (r.a) martyrdom and how ibn Saba and his followers caused War of Jamal when peace agreement had been agreed between Imam Ali (a.s) and Hadhrat Talha (r.a) and Hadhrat Zubair (r.a)?

[Hani]

I can get you narrations describing most of what you asked for but translation is gonna be a pain. This is an ancient thread, maybe you'll find some stuff already translated within:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?1308-Who-was-Abdullah-ibn-Saba

[Hani]

I also just added a section to the link which contains addition quotes about the Sabaa'iyyah:

Al-Ma`rifah wal-Tareekh by Ya`qoub bin Sufiyan:
حَدَّثَنِي الْفَضْلُ بْنُ سَهْلٍ، ثنا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ سَابِقٍ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا مَالِكُ بْنُ مِغْوَلٍ، عَنْ أَبِي الْوَلِيدِ، عَنْ سَالِمِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عُمَرَ، قَالَ: سَأَلَنِي: " مِمَّنْ أَنْتَ "؟ قَالَ:، فَقُلْتُ: مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ، فَقَالَ: " بِئْسَ الْقَوْمُ بَيْنَ سِبَائِي وَحَرُورِي

[Salim bin `Abdullah bin `Umar (d.106 AH) asked: "From where do you come?" I said: "From the people of Koufah." He said: "Terrible folks they are, either a Sabaa'i or a Harouri!"]


Comment: abu al-Waleed is al-Waleed bin abi al-Waleed the servant of ibn `Umar. Muhammad bin Sabiq is Saduq. Al-Fadl bin Sahl is abu al-`Abbas Thiqah. Malik and Salim (d.106 AH) are Thiqaat.


Musannaf ibn abi Shaybah:
حَدَّثَنَا ابْنُ عُلَيَّةَ ، عَنْ خَالِدٍ ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سِيرِينَ ، قَالَ : أَرَادَ عُبَيْدُ اللهِ بْنُ زِيَادٍ أَنْ يُوَرِّثَ الأُخْتَ مِنَ الأُمِّ مَعَ الْجَدِّ ، وَقَالَ : إنَّ عُمَرَ قَدْ وَرَّثَ الأُخْتَ مَعَهُ ، فَقَالَ عَبْدُ اللهِ بْنُ عُتْبَةَ : إنِّي لَسْتُ بِسَبَئِيٍّ وَلاَ حَرُورِي ، فَاقْتَفِرِ الأَثَرَ ، فَإِنَّك لَنْ تُخْطِئَ فِي الطَّرِيقِ مَا دُمْت عَلَى الأَثَرِ

[Ibn Sireen said: `Ubaydullah bin Ziyad wished to offer inheritance to the sister from the mother alongside the grandfather. He also said: "`Umar had done so." `Abdullah bin `Utbah (d.74 AH) said: "I am neither a Sabaa'i nor am I a Harouri, follow the (correct) path for you shall never go astray while on that path."]


Comment: Ibn Sireen is Thiqah, Khalid is al-Hadhdha’ Thiqah, Ibn `Ulayyah is Isma`eel abu Bishr. `Abdullah bin `Utbah bin Mas`oud al-Koufi (d.74 AH) has seen the Prophet (saw).

[Rationalist]

With all due respect, I think this guy is playing around.

Yes he is on Taqiyyah mode. These type of 12ers are worst than the Shirazi 12ers who are open about their beliefs.

[Rationalist]

With all due respect, I think this guy is playing around.

And what made you think that I am playing around? Does asking questions in order to gain knowledge means playing around?

You are bold enough to say tabarra against the Sahaba is wrong which takes years of research, but you don't share research to why this is the case. All you say is the imams said this is wrong. How do we know they are wrong? Which narrators have misguided to promote Rafidism in the sect?

[Rationalist]

With all due respect, I think this guy is playing around.

And what made you think that I am playing around? Does asking questions in order to gain knowledge means playing around?

double post

[Rationalist]

Okay here is one example. If you are a 12er you have to consider Zurara bin Ayan to be trustworthy. Let's see what he narrates:


عشرة أمثالها ..قال: من ذكر أبا بكر وعمر فلعنهما كل غداة كتب
الله له سبعين حسنة ومحى عنه عشر سيأت ورفع له عشر درجات
رواه العياشي في تفسيره الجزء ١ الصفحة ٣٨٧
رواه الشيخ حسن بن سليمان الحلي في كتاب المحتضر الصفحة ٣٥

Zurarah reported that Imam al Sadiq (as) explained the verse (6:160) [Whoever brings a good deed shall have ten times the like thereof to his credit]: "Whoever mentions Abu Bakr and Umar, then sends la'nah on them every morning, Allah (swt) will write for him seventy hasanat (good deeds) and remove from him ten bad deeds and raise his rank by ten positions." (Tafsir Ayyashi by Shaikh al Ayyashi: Volume 1 Page 387, Mukhtasar al Basair by Shaikh Hasan b. Suleiman al Hilli: Page 35)

Why is Zurarah bin Ayan considered trustworthy? Can you provide me some information about this man and how is he viewed in Sunni ilm ul Rijal and Shia ilm ul Rijal?

Zararah b. Ayan Sheibani, was one of the chief companions of Imam Baqir [a] and Imam Al-Sadiq [a]. He was so respected and trustworthy that Imam Al-Sadiq [a] said: If this man, Zararah did not exist my traditions would have been lost. (Rejal-Kashi, Wasa'il Shiah v.18, Monlahal Amal, v.2. Pg. 871).
http://www.al-islam.org/hesham/17.htm

[Hani]

In reality Zurarah was a Zindeeq.

[Ijtaba]

With all due respect, I think this guy is playing around.

And what made you think that I am playing around? Does asking questions in order to gain knowledge means playing around?

You are bold enough to say tabarra against the Sahaba is wrong which takes years of research, but you don't share research to why this is the case. All you say is the imams said this is wrong. How do we know they are wrong? Which narrators have misguided to promote Rafidism in the sect?

To be honest I only found Hani and Farid's posts to be useful as they have tried to answer my questions and given me useful links and material to study. Besides them all others have done nothing but to attack me and waste my time by me giving justifications. Now its enough. You can think I am doing Taqiyyah or playing around just because I am not doing and will not do what you want me to do and that is to curse Caliphs (r.a) and Sahabas (r.a). I want to ask you one thing. You said I am doing Taqiyyah.. May I ask where did I do Taqiyyah? I openly said and stated that 12ers do curse Caliphs and Sahabas and I never denied this fact. I also never denied Shia Giant Scholars did curse Sahabas. I also never denied that there are narrations in Shiite books cursing Sahabas. So where is my Taqiyyah???

I am just answering your question (and this will be last time) because you asked what research led me to avoid cursing Sahabas. My answer is simple. I did not avoid cursing as a result of some research but it was my assumption that our Imams (a.s) would never openly curse nor privately curse any Muslim because it is against Ikhlaq. My main purpose over here is to know what are the differences between Shia and Sunni and how did they all start.

From the first day in this forum I never hid my beliefs. I mentioned that I am 12er. By mentioning I am 12er it becomes clear to everyone who I am and what my beliefs are.

However my differing from some of 12er popular beliefs is due to my own personal reasoning which has nothing to do with 12er. It may be that after sometime I may become convinced that Shia Mehdi (a.s) is a myth and I may then disebelieve in Shia Mehdi (a.s). But this won't make me Sunni at that instant. After disbelieving in Shia Mehdi (a.s) I will concentrate on Divine Appointment of Imams (a.s). It may be that after getting convincing arguments against Divine appointment I would reject this concept. I would delve into each topic step by step and ask questions which any normal 12ers has. I will bring forward arguments in favor of Shia beliefs in discussions and only when I feel that arguments against those beliefs are more convincing only then would I change my views.

About how do I decide what would be acceptable or rejectable. Well my first and foremost criterion is to look in Al Qur'an to see whether Qur'an speaks in favor or against the arguments being presented. Second criterion is Hadiths which are deemed acceptable by both Shias and Sunnis. If some ahadith is brought forward which is highly authentic according to Shias but deemed weak according to Sunnis I would avoid that ahadith because accepting that ahadith would be bias. Similarly vice versa.

I was born in 12er house so its natural for me to have 12er beliefs. The thing is that now I am researching whether my held-beliefs have reality in them or are based on falsehood.

[Hadrami]

Picture this, 12er belief
- Allah SWT & Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wasallam command muslim to follow Ali RA as leader
- Sahaba ignored that command and chosed Abu Bakar RA then Umar RA then Uthman RA

What would a muslim think or do if he believes there was such a command? Love the sahaba for ignoring & going against Allah's command?

The 12ers imamah is the origin of this evil practice & other evil practices you find in shiism.

[Rationalist]

To be honest I only found Hani and Farid's posts to be useful as they have tried to answer my questions and given me useful links and material to study. Besides them all others have done nothing but to attack me and waste my time by me giving justifications. Now its enough. You can think I am doing Taqiyyah or playing around just because I am not doing and will not do what you want me to do and that is to curse Caliphs (r.a) and Sahabas (r.a). I want to ask you one thing. You said I am doing Taqiyyah.. May I ask where did I do Taqiyyah? I openly said and stated that 12ers do curse Caliphs and Sahabas and I never denied this fact. I also never denied Shia Giant Scholars did curse Sahabas. I also never denied that there are narrations in Shiite books cursing Sahabas. So where is my Taqiyyah???

I have seen 12er Shia do wonders with Taqiyyah.  There was a 12er I met a few years ago. He even praised Abi Bakr and Umar and condemned Shaykh Mufid for attacking Abi Bakr for being in the cave with the Prophet (pbuh). However, when I came across his post on another forum where majority of the members were 12ers he attacked the sahaba left and right. In front of a majority Sunni population he rejected the idea the Umar killed Fatima. However, with a majority population he cursed "the killer of Fatima." When I one day asked him, what it was? And he admitted it was all taqiyyah and the reason he did is to when he comes on Sunni forums, the Sunnis would not attack his sect. Also he added that this type of taqiyyah is part of furu ad deen.
Again, I am just taking using  precaution. If you want to see ahadith where it promotes this type of taqiyyah, let me know I will be more than happy to post them for you.

I am just answering your question (and this will be last time) because you asked what research led me to avoid cursing Sahabas. My answer is simple. I did not avoid cursing as a result of some research but it was my assumption that our Imams (a.s) would never openly curse nor privately curse any Muslim because it is against Ikhlaq. My main purpose over here is to know what are the differences between Shia and Sunni and how did they all start.

Imam Ali (as) cursed Muawiyah in his qunoot. What about this example?

From the first day in this forum I never hid my beliefs. I mentioned that I am 12er. By mentioning I am 12er it becomes clear to everyone who I am and what my beliefs are.

Same with the 12er I met on yanabi.com. Over there he never denied he was 12er.
 

However my differing from some of 12er popular beliefs is due to my own personal reasoning which has nothing to do with 12er. It may be that after sometime I may become convinced that Shia Mehdi (a.s) is a myth and I may then disebelieve in Shia Mehdi (a.s). But this won't make me Sunni at that instant. After disbelieving in Shia Mehdi (a.s) I will concentrate on Divine Appointment of Imams (a.s). It may be that after getting convincing arguments against Divine appointment I would reject this concept. I would delve into each topic step by step and ask questions which any normal 12ers has. I will bring forward arguments in favor of Shia beliefs in discussions and only when I feel that arguments against those beliefs are more convincing only then would I change my views.

The issue with the Shia Mahdi is that this matter falls in the category of being unseen. Yet the 12ers made the Mahdi's imamate binding when his imamate does not even function. Now this is a big problem.

About how do I decide what would be acceptable or rejectable. Well my first and foremost criterion is to look in Al Qur'an to see whether Qur'an speaks in favor or against the arguments being presented. Second criterion is Hadiths which are deemed acceptable by both Shias and Sunnis. If some ahadith is brought forward which is highly authentic according to Shias but deemed weak according to Sunnis I would avoid that ahadith because accepting that ahadith would be bias. Similarly vice versa.

What about other sects such as the Zaidia, Mutazilla, Ibadiyah etc ?

I was born in 12er house so its natural for me to have 12er beliefs. The thing is that now I am researching whether my held-beliefs have reality in them or are based on falsehood.

Okay.

[Ijtaba]

Ok. To make my intentions clear to all people over here I will list down my beliefs so that no one has any more doubts about me and whether I have some hidden motives, etc. My main purpose to come to this forum is to challenge my beliefs which I as a Shia have to know whether there are based on evidence or emotions. As I am not a scholar nor did I do Ph.D in Islamic Studies so you can know that I have very limited knowledge. And being South Asian I don't understand Arabic language so I can't get information first hand as I am dependent on English translation and so much of my knowledge comes from material on internet. Material on internet has reliability issues as those information aren't backed by Respected Scholars or Authentic References or there maybe Mistranslation dishonesty involved or hadiths, reports and narrations maybe misinterpreted or taken out of context, etc. So this is also one of the main reasons for me to ask directly in this forum about the materials which I read on the internet on Shia websites whether there are correct or is there some misinformation or dishonesty involved. I didn't come here for some debate but for gaining knowledge and knowing the truth.

Here are my beliefs which I as a Shia have and about which I would discuss in detail by opening a thread for them. I won't be discussing on all topics at once but step by step so that I may gain deep understanding and be firmly grounded in knowledge.

Topic 01:
Belief in ALLAH (SWT)

This is common factor uniting both Shias and Sunnis. However in this topic I will discuss about the concept of Bada and other related issues such as Shias concept of Tauheed.

Topic 02:
Belief in Prophethood of Mohammed (s.a.w.w)

This again is common factor uniting both Shias and Sunnis. However again in this topic I will discuss about Infallibility of Prophet (s.a.w.w), Receiving of Prophethood, 40 years of his (s.a.w.w) life before receiving Revelations, his (s.a.w.w) purpose of mission of Prophethood & Messenger ship, his (s.a.w.w) Parents and Grandparents as well as his upbringing, his dealing with the people (Believers, Jews, Christians and Polytheists), etc.

Topic 03:
Belief in Al Qur'an

Again this is common factor uniting Shias and Sunnis. The topic would cover discussion about Sunnis accusing Shias of belief in Tahreef of Qur'an, Shias claiming Imams (a.s) having there own Qur'an different from Qur'an in our hands today, etc.

Topic 04:
Belief in Imamate

This is the main factor of disagreement between Shias and Sunnis. The topic would involve discussion of the concept of Imamate, Imamate in Qur'an & Hadiths, Mentioning of Numbers and Names of Imams in Qur'an & Hadiths, is Imamate continuation of Prophethood or hidden Prophethood or is Imamate above Prophethood or is Imamate totally different from Prophethood, etc.

And other topics such as Method of Salat, Wudhu, Prostration on Mud, Belief in Taqiyyah, Mutah and other differences.

I would also have discussion on following topics:

The reason of Hatred for Caliphs (r.a) and Sahabas (r.a) by 12ers Shias, Shias accusing of Hadhrat Umar (r.a) burning the House of Hadhrat Fatima al-Zehra (s.a), Fadak issue, Naming of Children of Imams (a.s) on the names of Caliphs (r.a), Authenticity of History events such as Poisoning of Imams (a.s) by the Caliphs of their time and the Event of Karbala and the Origin of Shia Matam, etc.

I will be discussing on all of these topics by asking questions which I as 12er have or many of my 12er friends have. I hope Insha ALLAH (SWT) my knowledge and understanding will increase and if I have any misconception or misinformation it would be removed by discussing these topics on this forum. May ALLAH (SWT) Guide us all to the Path which Pleases HIM (SWT). Ameen Ya RABBIL ALAMEEN.