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Sacrifice of Al Hussain?

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iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2017, 12:38:51 AM »
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Correction, Shias and Sunis both believe that Hussein sacrificed himself to save Islam or Hussein's sacrifice saved Islam. A different group who claims to be Suni believe otherwise.

They believe that it was a matter of Baya and it was just a tragic incident. And what Yazeed did was wrong and stepped over the mark by ordering the killing of Hussein.

Another group calls Yazeed Hazrath and RA and they believe Hussein's approach was wrong by not giving baya to Yazeed and refusing to accept him as the Muslim Khalif. They consider Hussein's approach as rebellious.

Farid

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2017, 01:11:16 AM »
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Correction, Shias and Sunis both believe that Hussein sacrificed himself to save Islam or Hussein's sacrifice saved Islam.

We are in agreement that Shias hold this belief. You have not provided any proof that Sunnis believe that he willingly sacrificed himself and his family.

...and do you have proof that he willingly did this?

Hani

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2017, 05:15:13 AM »
I recall a narration I translated once and deemed authentic at the time, a man came to al-Hasan after the Fitnah was extinguished and found him destroying a bunch of letters, al-Hasan said they were letters from the Kufans, he said: "I do not fear them for myself. I fear them for that man." al-Hasan pointed towards his brother Husayn.

If anyone can dig this up I'd be thankful!

If I am to give my perspective, Kufans simply managed to convince al-Husayn, his older brother dealt with them previously so he wisely avoided their traps. Husayn however seemed to be a lot more hot blooded than his brother based on my historical reading so far, they insisted on him and made him a million promises and guarantees, he was finally convinced and motivated to reform the nation through rebellion, it was his only chance. That doesn't mean he was 100% certain the Kufans wouldn't back-stab him, that's why he sent his cousin to make sure things were as they described.

عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

muslim720

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2017, 05:17:04 AM »
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
As is the norm for me, I was present at a few Muharram lectures.  Due to health reasons, I was only able to attend three nights but Alhamdulilah, it was enough to put a few things in perspective.

I was listening to this ayatollah from Afghanistan (was refreshing to run into one of those) and night after night, he would touch upon different topics.  I noticed that I was not the only Sunni there; in fact, a friend of mine told me that one of the Friday khutbahs (a day or two before Ashura) at a Sunni mosque was in regards to what happened in Karbala.  I welcome this initiative by Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah because our silence is misconstrued as our weakness or ignorance. 

Nonetheless, the ayatollah one night, noticing the presence of Sunnis at the gathering, acknowledged that Imam Hussain (ra) belongs not just to the Shias and that leading Friday prayers in Kabul, he would often hear the Sunni mosque across the street praise Ahlul Bayt (ra) right after mentioning the Prophet (saw).  He even went on to say that a lot that has been narrated about, and from, Imam Hassan (ra) and Imam Hussain (ra) are found in Sunni books.  In other words, the Shias rely on them to see what they had narrated.

What got to me was that on the "Night of Abbas", he mentioned that Abbas (ra) - the brother of Imam Hussain (ra) - was ready to pounce on the enemy but was awaiting the go-ahead from Imam Hussain (ra).  He continued by saying that Abbas (ra) was just like his father, Imam Ali (ra), and that he would have crushed hundreds of the enemy forces all by himself.  However, Imam Hussain (ra), as he continued the story, did not permit Abbas (ra) to launch an attack on the enemy because Imam Hussain (ra) did not want bloodshed.  I was sitting there wondering then why did Imam Hussain (ra) leave for Kufa?  To give dawah to Yazeed?  To talk to his army?  To preach?

Seeing stories contradict from one mosque to another or one gathering to another, it is hard to sit and listen patiently.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 05:18:49 AM by muslim720 »

Hadrami

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2017, 07:20:43 AM »
a normal, sane, responsible family leader will not bring his extended family to a battle, let alone to be slaughtered and i believe 10000% that a noble, brave, responsible family leader like Husayn ibn Ali ra was such a person.

I totally agree with you but the question is why did Imam Hussain (a.s) go to Iraq? A sane responsible family leader would not only put the lives of his family in danger but would also save his life.
Why? Its simple, because he didnt know its gonna end up that way, that his so called shia would abandoned him. The reason why its difficult for you to swallow that is because youve been fed lies by shia scholars that he knew whats gonna happen.

iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2017, 01:24:41 PM »
Just read all the posts. Don't worry will address each point. It is very important. One step at a time guys.

iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2017, 01:53:04 PM »
Ok, different points are being mentioned and raised all at once. I clearly see that no one wants to get in to a discussion or work towards an argument or difference. It is obvious that people don't want to get caught up in anything.

iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2017, 02:52:20 PM »
Right. Lets start from the beginning but keep it nice and short and according to the thread.
Muawiya appointed Yazeed as his successor and was getting the Muslims to accept Yazeed as Khalifatul Muslimeen. He wanted people to give baya to Yazeed.

Now the Muslims had serious concerns about this. Yazeed grew up as a Christian. His mother and her relations were all Christians. And their profession was to entertain people by singing and dancing. This is how they earned their living.

One, Yazeed's baya was took by heavy handed tactics from some Muslims and through violent and threatening behaviour from the others.

Two, Yazeed was altering and tampering with Sharia Law. He was making changes in principals and amendments in rules and regulations. Just as the Christians have done since times have changed and people have to accept these changes and move on.

The Muslims knew what was happening and about Yazeed's character and ways. They wrote to people of Madina, high ranking individuals, Ahle Bayth, Sahaba and other important individuals and personalities, But Hussein was the only one to answer their call and to look in to things.

To be continued !

Farid

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2017, 03:31:34 PM »
So you are saying that Al Hussain's sacrifice was to put an end to Yazeed who was altering the principles of Islam.

What principles are you talking about? Do provide references please.

iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2017, 06:08:27 PM »
So you are saying that Al Hussain's sacrifice was to put an end to Yazeed who was altering the principles of Islam.

What principles are you talking about? Do provide references please.

Let me complete this then we shall take this further despite the outcome.

Farid

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2017, 06:49:39 PM »
If you are going to be providing a historical context to justify your belief, instead of providing a straight forward answer to a basic question, then do expect your historical context to be scrutinized every step of the way.

By the way, I find it interesting how Shias, who claim to be the sect of aql, are making all these flimsy logical leaps in order to justify their beliefs in this supposed sacrifice.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 06:51:28 PM by Farid »

Khaled

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2017, 08:24:05 PM »
Two, Yazeed was altering and tampering with Sharia Law. He was making changes in principals and amendments in rules and regulations. Just as the Christians have done since times have changed and people have to accept these changes and move on.

السلام عليكم, I'd love that, while doing your analysis, you can provide us with some examples and references to the things you mention.  I'd love some (concrete, practical) examples of Yazeed changing the shari'ah, and I'd love to know how Hussein رضي الله عنه revolting against him stopped this from happening. 

Quote
The Muslims knew what was happening and about Yazeed's character and ways. They wrote to people of Madina, high ranking individuals, Ahle Bayth, Sahaba and other important individuals and personalities, But Hussein was the only one to answer their call and to look in to things.

To be continued !

So the Muslims were complaining to and attempting to take the pledge from Hussein رضي الله عنه not because he was an infallible Imam, but because he was one of many Ahl al-Bayt or Sahaba who would've been equally as qualified to lead the Muslims?

I'm a little confused on that second point if you don't mind clearing it up, بارك الله فيك
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Khaled

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2017, 08:27:43 PM »
Correction, Shias and Sunis both believe that Hussein sacrificed himself to save Islam or Hussein's sacrifice saved Islam. A different group who claims to be Suni believe otherwise.

Which group of Sunnis, بارك الله فيك, believe Hussein رضي الله عنه's action saved Islam?  Is this the position of the 4 schools of fiqh, or the Ash'ari, Maturidi, Athari or even Mu'tazali aqeedah?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2017, 09:14:35 PM »
So husayn sacrificed himself & almost his entire family to save Islam from the evil ruler Yazeed.
Yet Ali did nothing to Abu Bakr or Umar or Uthman. Hasan in fact stepped down to allow Muawiya to rule.

Who's story makes more sense? Shia story?

Or the sunni story that states the firsy three caliphs were righteous & Muawiya was no kafir (despite his obvious short comings in certain aspects), and that unlike the previous rulers, yazeed was a tyrant & hence why Husayn fought him?

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2017, 09:22:25 PM »
What about the sacrifice of Zayd ibn Ali & his son yahya or the sons of Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib's offspring such as nafs al zakiyya? Surely they followed Husayn's example more than the Imams the ithna ashari follow after Husayn? These Imams who the ithna ashari follow after Husayn were more in line with following the example of Hasan.
The Irony.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 09:23:57 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

Hani

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2017, 11:04:50 PM »
If Husayn revolted because Yazid changed Religious rulings, why didn't he revolt when Muawiyah changed them? Or did Muawiyah not change anything?
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2017, 01:42:14 AM »
His advisers did warn him radiallahu anhum before going... and they even said that if you're going at least don't go with your women folk and children. They all new the people of Kufa were a people of deception and they were aware of what happened Ali radiallahu anhu... Yazeed never ordered the killing either. So... If Hussayn radiallahu anhu was sacraficed for Islam, Uthman radillahu anhu was doing so as well because he was also brutally murdered unjustly. Some of the best people of the ummah were martyred and but the shia are so obsessed with only a few because they are busy backbiting and slandering the rest. Honestly, if Hussayn radiallahu anhu got brutally killed, do you really think he'd be happy seing his "followers" beating themselves up? Cutting their children? Like for real. He was martyred. Islam is what Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam practised and the sahabah and ahlul bayt radiallahu anhum followed... So do what Allah azzawajal has commanded and what Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam did and stop innovate all this nonsense and attribute filth to these noble people radiallahu anhum. Hussayn went, even though he got signs not to go, and he was martyred. MARTYRED. He is in jannah, what else do you want?! Try to strive for jannah instead of striving for your destruction, ya shia. Allah azzawajal is so clear in the Qur'an. He is Al-Haqq, would He lie to us? Audhu billah, ofcourse not! If Hussayn radiallahu anhu could make duaa when the baby was struck with an arrow, dua for patience, then if you are a true follower you should engage in duaa for patience and forgiveness and not commit shirk and whatnot! Shia tries to prove their points with out sources like Bukhari etc. You  come with one saheeh hadith saying one thing about Ali radiallahu anhu and therefor you say Abu Bakr radiallahu annhu is baaaad but you don't give us the SAHEEEH hadith thta speaks WELL about Abu Bakr radiallahu anhu etc, so you are very cheap. You are indeed a very odd people. Very odd.

iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2017, 11:16:13 AM »
A question we need to ask ourselves is that why did Yazeed replace his governer in Kufa with ibne Ziyaad. Because ibne Ziyaad was very well known for his brutal natural and ruthless stance. He was known for his heavy handed tactics and would be able to crush the uprising by controlling the Kufans.

And this is exactly what he did through extreme means of violence and threatening behaviour. The Kufans are accused of betrayal,  that is not true. Extreme violence was used to kerb and control the Kufans. They were persecuted. They were tortured and murdered.

iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2017, 11:28:56 AM »
At that time and in those days we didn't have technology and the media we have today where news and information travels so fast and people are made or become aware so quickly.

Why was Yazeed so eager for Hussein's baya? That would definitely give Yazeed's Khilafat the ultimate seal of approval. It would give Yazeed's governance the legitimacy that he so badly needed. Otherwise he knew he was doomed.

Hussein's response. Hussein did not say;
"I will not give baya to Yazeed or Yazeed does not deserve baya". NO. But in fact Hussein laid down the principle by saying, making and giving such a beautiful statement that;
"Someone like me can never accept someone like Yazeed as Khalifa, someone like me can never give baya to someone like Yazeed".

iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2017, 12:20:10 PM »
Hussein didn't want to fight but was forced to fight. He was pushed to engage in conflict. And Hussein responded so beautifully by saying,
"I'd rather die a bloody death than live a life as a coward".

When Hussein and his companions were eventually killed their bodies were refused funeral. Where did Islam go here? Their bodies were trampled by horses. What does Islam say here? The heads were cut off from the bodies and put on spears. What does Islam say about this?

And when the heads reached Yazeed's residence and were brought before him what did Yazeed say?
"Now I have avenged the killings of my ancestors in the battle of Badr". Where is Islam here?

And you talk about How Hussein saved Islam? And you say this wasn't about Islam. And you ask for references. Answer me this,  do you honestly believe that those who get in to authority and gain power they will leave things/material lying around which opposes them, that goes against them and which is damaging towards them?

Would you? But I will still put references forward despite that they will be rejected point blank right to begin with. Why? Because you have a mind set, you are already programmed to a tune and you severely suffer from this anti Shia fever which stops you from having an open mind and refrains you from thinking straight.

But still this must go on because people have a right to know and we have to deal with this propaganda against us by certain individuals who hide under the Ahle Sunah umbrella and launch these fake accusations and false allegations.

 

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