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Sacrifice of Al Hussain?

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Farid

Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« on: October 02, 2017, 12:06:01 PM »
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Link

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2017, 12:34:10 PM »
You are right he tried to save his children, wives, and companions.

But from the flip side, when Prophets or chosen leaders and their followers get killed, it happens despite the help of God that can make them win as in did with Talut and his forces.

So why did Prophets in Bani-Israel get killed despite their superpowers, despite the Angelic help that could of came to believers?

This is where I see the sacrifice.  Allah's pleasure lied in that he and his companions would get killed because people had forsaken them, so despite God giving him the choice of getting helped and being victorious which would not be a sin for him taking nor hated, he chose the best and the closest path to God's pleasure.

In other words, He chose that people have to live by their decisions and consequences of them,  though God's help and Angels were offered for victory.

This is not an easy decision for us to understand, as I would have chosen victory if it were a video game or something.

His sacrifice didn't save Islam, the light of God that cannot be extinguished in another sense of the word was put out. Islam was in a sense from that day destroyed and the leaders all do there was some little hope of victory, all they can do is was salvage the train wreck that the nation took and the course.

It was meant to be a victory. That was the original intention.

All the fabrications that want to make it the predestined Ismaili sacrifice thing are just that fabrications.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Ijtaba

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2017, 04:38:28 PM »
Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Do you believe that that this tragedy (which led to nothing positive) could have been avoided?

- Why didn't Imam Hussain (a.s) heed to the advice of his sincere friends & companions such as Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abdullah ibn Zubayr, etc and instead decided to trust the deception of Kufians who were known for betraying his father Imam Ali (a.s) & his brother Imam Hassan (a.s)?

- And why did Imam Hussain (a.s) travel to Iraq with his family? Was he going to Iraq with his family for a vacation? Is it reasonable to take one's family to a place (such as Iraq) in such a time where there is conflict and threat of war?

My question is: According to Ahlul Sunnah why did Imam Hussain (a.s) along with his family decided to embark on a journey where bloodshed and massacre was imminent and unavoidable?

iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2017, 05:05:13 PM »
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Working at the moment but will respond. Nice question by the way. Point for you to note though, it's not just the Shia but also the vast majority of the Sunis (Ahle Suna Wal Jamah) also firmly believe that Hussein saved Islam.

Farid

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2017, 10:57:59 PM »
Do you believe that that this tragedy (which led to nothing positive) could have been avoided?

- Why didn't Imam Hussain (a.s) heed to the advice of his sincere friends & companions such as Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abdullah ibn Zubayr, etc and instead decided to trust the deception of Kufians who were known for betraying his father Imam Ali (a.s) & his brother Imam Hassan (a.s)?

- And why did Imam Hussain (a.s) travel to Iraq with his family? Was he going to Iraq with his family for a vacation? Is it reasonable to take one's family to a place (such as Iraq) in such a time where there is conflict and threat of war?

My question is: According to Ahlul Sunnah why did Imam Hussain (a.s) along with his family decided to embark on a journey where bloodshed and massacre was imminent and unavoidable?

"My question"? Don't you mean: My questions? You've asked four questions instead of providing me a direct response to my question.

You seem to believe that Al-Hussain knew that he would be killed in Karbala, but you did not bring any evidence of that. His actions, logically speaking, are clearly the actions of someone that did not know. If you have any proof that counters the apparent nature of his actions, then I would appreciate you presenting it, instead of flooding me with questions as a response.

Working at the moment but will respond. Nice question by the way. Point for you to note though, it's not just the Shia but also the vast majority of the Sunis (Ahle Suna Wal Jamah) also firmly believe that Hussein saved Islam.

Looking forward to your contributions, brother.

Hadrami

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2017, 12:34:24 AM »
a normal, sane, responsible family leader will not bring his extended family to a battle, let alone to be slaughtered and i believe 10000% that a noble, brave, responsible family leader like Husayn ibn Ali ra was such a person. On the other hand for zombies like shias, well what else can i say 😉

Ijtaba

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2017, 04:08:14 AM »
"My question"? Don't you mean: My questions? You've asked four questions instead of providing me a direct response to my question.

You seem to believe that Al-Hussain knew that he would be killed in Karbala, but you did not bring any evidence of that. His actions, logically speaking, are clearly the actions of someone that did not know. If you have any proof that counters the apparent nature of his actions, then I would appreciate you presenting it, instead of flooding me with questions as a response.

I would like you to only answer my last question. Ignore the above three questions. Except for the first the two in-between questions weren't directed at you but these were the questions that comes in one's mind when looking at the events of Karbala.

I didn't answer your question because I don't have in-depth knowledge about factors which led to the tragedy of Karbala neither have I studied the event of Karbala according to Sunni & Shia authentic reports. All of my knowledge concerning events of Karbala comes from Shia speakers delivering lectures during the month of Moharram.

Ijtaba

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2017, 04:27:19 AM »
a normal, sane, responsible family leader will not bring his extended family to a battle, let alone to be slaughtered and i believe 10000% that a noble, brave, responsible family leader like Husayn ibn Ali ra was such a person.

I totally agree with you but the question is why did Imam Hussain (a.s) go to Iraq? A sane responsible family leader would not only put the lives of his family in danger but would also save his life.

The only reasonable thing at such a time (i.e. time where there was conflict, threat of rebellion, etc) would had been to avoid taking any sides and remain aloof from all politics. Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abdullah ibn Zubayr & Abdullah ibn Umar did not go to Iraq neither were they duped by the deception of Kufian letters. They in fact reminded Imam Hussain (a.s) of the treacherous nature of Kufians and stopped him from going to Iraq and yet Imam Hussain (a.s) decided to go to Iraq with his family not heeding to the advice of his close friends & companions.

Farid

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2017, 05:06:03 AM »
Ijtaba, it goes without saying that Al Hussain was caught off guard. He expected to enter Kufa and to be surrounded with people that would defend him.

He did not send Muslim bin Aqeel to get butchered purposefully. He did not head towards Iraq with knowledge of Muslim's death either.

Ijtaba

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2017, 11:38:29 AM »
I don't understand why would Imam Hussain (a.s) expect loyalty from treacherous and deceitful people i.e. Kufians? You have read the Islamic history more than me and are more grounded in knowledge relating to background issues surrounding such events. Do you believe Kufians were famous for their loyalty or bravery that a person should not only risk his life but also risk the lives of his family and friends for their sake?

Abdullah ibn Abbas, ibn Umar & ibn Zubayr never believed the deceptive letters of Kufians. They also tried to stop Imam Hussain (a.s) from going to Iraq. It was reasonable to sent Muslim ibn Aqeel to Iraq to assess the situation of Kufians but was it reasonable to take one's family to such a place? Shouldn't Imam Hussain (a.s) as a precaution had left his family in Medina and had taken instead strong organized force in case war breaks out in Iraq?


zaid_ibn_ali

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2017, 01:12:10 PM »
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Working at the moment but will respond. Nice question by the way. Point for you to note though, it's not just the Shia but also the vast majority of the Sunis (Ahle Suna Wal Jamah) also firmly believe that Hussein saved Islam.

I'm curious, but how did Husayn save Islam?

Yazeed remained in power & it passed on to his family.


Farid

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2017, 02:54:34 PM »
I don't understand why would Imam Hussain (a.s) expect loyalty from treacherous and deceitful people i.e. Kufians? You have read the Islamic history more than me and are more grounded in knowledge relating to background issues surrounding such events. Do you believe Kufians were famous for their loyalty or bravery that a person should not only risk his life but also risk the lives of his family and friends for their sake?

First of all, seek the refuge of Allah from Al-Shaytan Al-Rajeem, take a step back, and consider what you are arguing.

It is as if you are saying: I do not understand the wisdom of Al-Hussain's trust in the Kufans, and THEREFORE, he must have sacrificed himself and his family!

Could this be the mental flow of anyone that hasn't been afflicted by the biases of his sect? It is clear to an objective mind that Al-Hussain had more faith in the Kufans than you do and was influenced by the amount of pledges that he received.

Do keep in mind that it isn't like there was only one week between Al-Hasan being let down by the Kufans and the Al-Hussain's acceptance of them. This happened after twenty years. Al-Hasan gave power to Mu'awiyah in the year 41 and Al-Hussain was killed in the year 61. A society does change in twenty years.

Quote
ibn Zubayr never believed the deceptive letters of Kufians. They also tried to stop Imam Hussain (a.s) from going to Iraq.

Now it is clearer to me that your reading of the events is incomplete. Ibn Al-Zubair actually advised Al-Hussain to go to Kufa. This is the narrative in the most authentic Shia source of the events (Abu Mikhnaf) as well as Ahl Al-Sunnah (Tareekh Khalifa bin Khayyat).
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 02:58:15 PM by Farid »

Ijtaba

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2017, 03:59:09 PM »
First of all, seek the refuge of Allah from Al-Shaytan Al-Rajeem, take a step back, and consider what you are arguing.

It is as if you are saying: I do not understand the wisdom of Al-Hussain's trust in the Kufans, and THEREFORE, he must have sacrificed himself and his family!

Could this be the mental flow of anyone that hasn't been afflicted by the biases of his sect? It is clear to an objective mind that Al-Hussain had more faith in the Kufans than you do and was influenced by the amount of pledges that he received.

Do keep in mind that it isn't like there was only one week between Al-Hasan being let down by the Kufans and the Al-Hussain's acceptance of them. This happened after twenty years. Al-Hasan gave power to Mu'awiyah in the year 41 and Al-Hussain was killed in the year 61. A society does change in twenty years.

What did the trust in Kufians result in?

Is it reasonable to have faith in disloyal and cowards pledging their allegiance even if the number of such pledges reached 100,000?

What did Kufians do when Imam Hussain (a.s) came to them? All of the cowards and disloyals broke their allegiance.

What change in Kufians did you notice in twenty years from year 41 till year 61? Did Kufians change from betrayers into loyalists or from cowards into brave warriors in these twenty years?

Now it is clearer to me that your reading of the events is incomplete. Ibn Al-Zubair actually advised Al-Hussain to go to Kufa. This is the narrative in the most authentic Shia source of the events (Abu Mikhnaf) as well as Ahl Al-Sunnah (Tareekh Khalifa bin Khayyat).

If you had read my previous post I had already cleared that I haven't read any authentic Sunni & Shia reports on this event. About ibn Zubair I got my info from the link pasted below:

https://islamqa.info/en/112051

Wise men who loved him had advised him not to go out to Iraq, but he insisted on going out to them. Among those who gave him this advice were: ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Abbaas, ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar, Abu Sa‘eed al-Khudri, Jaabir ibn ‘Abdullah, al-Miswar ibn Makhramah, and ‘Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr (may Allah be pleased with them all).

Link

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2017, 04:38:19 PM »
Ijtaba, it goes without saying that Al Hussain was caught off guard. He expected to enter Kufa and to be surrounded with people that would defend him.

He did not send Muslim bin Aqeel to get butchered purposefully. He did not head towards Iraq with knowledge of Muslim's death either.

He was not caught off guard. This is where we have to seek a middle ground. Yes he was going for victory, yes he didn't sent Muslim bin Aqeel to die, but he was not surprised by treachery that already occurred to Imam Hassan by these people and was already taking place during Imam Ali to some degree.

He was not some fool that didn't know the high risk he was taking.

And this is something you guys don't admit. He took a risk because he was trying to do something important.

That important thing we don't realize but it's alluded to in Quran "If you do not it there will great sedition and havoc in the earth".

Prophets were martyred all in vain in trying to prepare people for a world for Mohammad in which at the end was not prepared for him.

Ahlulbayt (as) blood is tragedy, because, it didn't save Islam. Neither Imam Hassan dying from poison,  neither the slaugher of Hussain, neither Imam Musa Al-Kadhim in prison - they could of chose victory any of them with the help of God and Angelic help,  but they are teaching humanity a final lesson: responsibility.

The oppressor, the helper, and the one who watches (but does nothing about it) are all associates in the same crimes of oppression. - Imam Jewad.

They in a sense saved Islam in the sense they left enough light that interprets the Quran properly and enough light to see, but fabrications were mixed with their truthful words, and ambiguities followed even during the lifetime and still now,  and they left a way for people to be guided to their leader of time and unite around him through the words of his predecessors that are verified by Quran, but their blood at the end like all the Prophets killed in the past, became something that is disgrace to humans and a shame, and not at all something productive that revived humanity.

Innovations are followed today,   leadership of Ahlulbayt (as) and it's clear proofs have been made confusing and ambigous by replacing by first by four direct representatives (leaders in all sense of the word) then supposed "Ayatollahs" and "Marjas" that people don't even realize the purpose of Ahlulbayt (as) in the first place and the contradiction that arises to Quran and their arguments regarding leadership.

And what was neglected was Shurah, we were all suppose to council one anothe regarding Quran and Sunnah, and gain insights and learn from one another as Quran says "be sages (scholars that are pious) by which you teach of the book and by what you study".

Peace.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Farid

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2017, 04:55:48 PM »
@Ijtaba:

None of your issues with the Kufans is a direct answer to my original post, nor can any of what you have said be used as solid evidence that Al-Hussain willingly sacrificed himself and his family. Again, take a step back and think rationally about this.

You are putting your perspective, the perspective of a 15th century Muslim of the Kufans, over the apparent actions of Al-Hussain. The apparent actions of Al-Hussain shows that he trusted them enough.

Answer this simple question:

Were the apparent actions of Al-Hussain the actions of one who knew that he would be betrayed?

Quote
About ibn Zubair I got my info from the link pasted below:

https://islamqa.info/en/112051

Abu Mikhnaf and Khalifa bin Khayyat (through an authentic narration) hold much more weight than an anonymous writer at IslamQA.



Link

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 04:59:59 PM »
The apparent actions of Al-Hussain shows that he trusted them enough.

Can you prove that? It seems to be that the apparent actions are that he had enough hope but he still was aware of the high chance of treachery.

The fact he brought his family was showing the concept of "Husnal Dhan" to people's promises. If people gather to strive for justice, you don't turn them down. But he knew there was a high chance they were to back off and turn against their pledges and promises.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Ijtaba

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 05:29:56 PM »
@Ijtaba:

None of your issues with the Kufans is a direct answer to my original post, nor can any of what you have said be used as solid evidence that Al-Hussain willingly sacrificed himself and his family. Again, take a step back and think rationally about this.

You are putting your perspective, the perspective of a 15th century Muslim of the Kufans, over the apparent actions of Al-Hussain. The apparent actions of Al-Hussain shows that he trusted them enough.

That is to say he (Imam Hussain a.s) had enough trust on betrayers and disloyal people.

Scenario: If I trust a person who is known for his disloyalty and betrayal and that disloyal betrayer leaves me alone in dangerous situation then who is to blame? Me who trusted the betrayer or the Betrayer who left me?

Answer this simple question:

Were the apparent actions of Al-Hussain the actions of one who knew that he would be betrayed?

Imam Hussain (a.s) hoping loyalty from people who left his father (a.s) and brother (a.s) alone in their times of need is far from reality. Imam Hussain's (a.s) apparent action of taking his family with himself is strong evidence that he knew he would be betrayed.

Abu Mikhnaf and Khalifa bin Khayyat (through an authentic narration) hold much more weight than an anonymous writer at IslamQA.

I did not disagree with you. I just gave the link to show that it was not a thing which I made up but that I read it from Ahlul Sunnah's website. I also believe Abu Mikhnaf and Khalifa bin Khayyat (through an authentic narration) hold much more weight than an anonymous writer at IslamQA.

iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 10:16:05 PM »
Ok Farid, what exactly was the issue between Yazeed and Hussein? Lets start off from here. What's your opinion.

Farid

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 11:22:36 PM »
Imam Hussain (a.s) hoping loyalty from people who left his father (a.s) and brother (a.s) alone in their times of need is far from reality. Imam Hussain's (a.s) apparent action of taking his family with himself is strong evidence that he knew he would be betrayed.

If that is your strongest evidence, then you have to re-examine your beliefs on Al-Hussain, because again, you are forcing your judgement upon the people of Kufa, instead of accepting Al-Hussain's faith in them.

Also, refer to my original post. I've clearly stated that Al-Hussain attempted to back out from Karbala, which shows that he did not plan on getting sacrificed, nor did he want to get his family killed, which is a great sin by the way.

Ok Farid, what exactly was the issue between Yazeed and Hussein? Lets start off from here. What's your opinion.

Brother, refer to the original post. Even though Al-Hussain and Yazeed are linked to this topic, I am not interested in an endless discourse that will continue on for pages without any major benefit. If you want to discuss their relationship, I suggest starting a new thread. If you have something that you want to get at that is directly linked to the topic and the question I asked, then please present what you have.



iceman

Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 12:18:29 AM »
Imam Hussain (a.s) hoping loyalty from people who left his father (a.s) and brother (a.s) alone in their times of need is far from reality. Imam Hussain's (a.s) apparent action of taking his family with himself is strong evidence that he knew he would be betrayed.

If that is your strongest evidence, then you have to re-examine your beliefs on Al-Hussain, because again, you are forcing your judgement upon the people of Kufa, instead of accepting Al-Hussain's faith in them.

Also, refer to my original post. I've clearly stated that Al-Hussain attempted to back out from Karbala, which shows that he did not plan on getting sacrificed, nor did he want to get his family killed, which is a great sin by the way.

Ok Farid, what exactly was the issue between Yazeed and Hussein? Lets start off from here. What's your opinion.

Brother, refer to the original post. Even though Al-Hussain and Yazeed are linked to this topic, I am not interested in an endless discourse that will continue on for pages without any major benefit. If you want to discuss their relationship, I suggest starting a new thread. If you have something that you want to get at that is directly linked to the topic and the question I asked, then please present what you have.

Ok, no problem.

 

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