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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Sahabah-AhlulBayt => Topic started by: Farid on October 02, 2017, 12:06:01 PM

Title: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 02, 2017, 12:06:01 PM
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Link on October 02, 2017, 12:34:10 PM
You are right he tried to save his children, wives, and companions.

But from the flip side, when Prophets or chosen leaders and their followers get killed, it happens despite the help of God that can make them win as in did with Talut and his forces.

So why did Prophets in Bani-Israel get killed despite their superpowers, despite the Angelic help that could of came to believers?

This is where I see the sacrifice.  Allah's pleasure lied in that he and his companions would get killed because people had forsaken them, so despite God giving him the choice of getting helped and being victorious which would not be a sin for him taking nor hated, he chose the best and the closest path to God's pleasure.

In other words, He chose that people have to live by their decisions and consequences of them,  though God's help and Angels were offered for victory.

This is not an easy decision for us to understand, as I would have chosen victory if it were a video game or something.

His sacrifice didn't save Islam, the light of God that cannot be extinguished in another sense of the word was put out. Islam was in a sense from that day destroyed and the leaders all do there was some little hope of victory, all they can do is was salvage the train wreck that the nation took and the course.

It was meant to be a victory. That was the original intention.

All the fabrications that want to make it the predestined Ismaili sacrifice thing are just that fabrications.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 02, 2017, 04:38:28 PM
Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Do you believe that that this tragedy (which led to nothing positive) could have been avoided?

- Why didn't Imam Hussain (a.s) heed to the advice of his sincere friends & companions such as Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abdullah ibn Zubayr, etc and instead decided to trust the deception of Kufians who were known for betraying his father Imam Ali (a.s) & his brother Imam Hassan (a.s)?

- And why did Imam Hussain (a.s) travel to Iraq with his family? Was he going to Iraq with his family for a vacation? Is it reasonable to take one's family to a place (such as Iraq) in such a time where there is conflict and threat of war?

My question is: According to Ahlul Sunnah why did Imam Hussain (a.s) along with his family decided to embark on a journey where bloodshed and massacre was imminent and unavoidable?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 02, 2017, 05:05:13 PM
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Working at the moment but will respond. Nice question by the way. Point for you to note though, it's not just the Shia but also the vast majority of the Sunis (Ahle Suna Wal Jamah) also firmly believe that Hussein saved Islam.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 02, 2017, 10:57:59 PM
Do you believe that that this tragedy (which led to nothing positive) could have been avoided?

- Why didn't Imam Hussain (a.s) heed to the advice of his sincere friends & companions such as Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abdullah ibn Zubayr, etc and instead decided to trust the deception of Kufians who were known for betraying his father Imam Ali (a.s) & his brother Imam Hassan (a.s)?

- And why did Imam Hussain (a.s) travel to Iraq with his family? Was he going to Iraq with his family for a vacation? Is it reasonable to take one's family to a place (such as Iraq) in such a time where there is conflict and threat of war?

My question is: According to Ahlul Sunnah why did Imam Hussain (a.s) along with his family decided to embark on a journey where bloodshed and massacre was imminent and unavoidable?

"My question"? Don't you mean: My questions? You've asked four questions instead of providing me a direct response to my question.

You seem to believe that Al-Hussain knew that he would be killed in Karbala, but you did not bring any evidence of that. His actions, logically speaking, are clearly the actions of someone that did not know. If you have any proof that counters the apparent nature of his actions, then I would appreciate you presenting it, instead of flooding me with questions as a response.

Working at the moment but will respond. Nice question by the way. Point for you to note though, it's not just the Shia but also the vast majority of the Sunis (Ahle Suna Wal Jamah) also firmly believe that Hussein saved Islam.

Looking forward to your contributions, brother.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 03, 2017, 12:34:24 AM
a normal, sane, responsible family leader will not bring his extended family to a battle, let alone to be slaughtered and i believe 10000% that a noble, brave, responsible family leader like Husayn ibn Ali ra was such a person. On the other hand for zombies like shias, well what else can i say 😉
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 03, 2017, 04:08:14 AM
"My question"? Don't you mean: My questions? You've asked four questions instead of providing me a direct response to my question.

You seem to believe that Al-Hussain knew that he would be killed in Karbala, but you did not bring any evidence of that. His actions, logically speaking, are clearly the actions of someone that did not know. If you have any proof that counters the apparent nature of his actions, then I would appreciate you presenting it, instead of flooding me with questions as a response.

I would like you to only answer my last question. Ignore the above three questions. Except for the first the two in-between questions weren't directed at you but these were the questions that comes in one's mind when looking at the events of Karbala.

I didn't answer your question because I don't have in-depth knowledge about factors which led to the tragedy of Karbala neither have I studied the event of Karbala according to Sunni & Shia authentic reports. All of my knowledge concerning events of Karbala comes from Shia speakers delivering lectures during the month of Moharram.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 03, 2017, 04:27:19 AM
a normal, sane, responsible family leader will not bring his extended family to a battle, let alone to be slaughtered and i believe 10000% that a noble, brave, responsible family leader like Husayn ibn Ali ra was such a person.

I totally agree with you but the question is why did Imam Hussain (a.s) go to Iraq? A sane responsible family leader would not only put the lives of his family in danger but would also save his life.

The only reasonable thing at such a time (i.e. time where there was conflict, threat of rebellion, etc) would had been to avoid taking any sides and remain aloof from all politics. Abdullah ibn Abbas, Abdullah ibn Zubayr & Abdullah ibn Umar did not go to Iraq neither were they duped by the deception of Kufian letters. They in fact reminded Imam Hussain (a.s) of the treacherous nature of Kufians and stopped him from going to Iraq and yet Imam Hussain (a.s) decided to go to Iraq with his family not heeding to the advice of his close friends & companions.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 03, 2017, 05:06:03 AM
Ijtaba, it goes without saying that Al Hussain was caught off guard. He expected to enter Kufa and to be surrounded with people that would defend him.

He did not send Muslim bin Aqeel to get butchered purposefully. He did not head towards Iraq with knowledge of Muslim's death either.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 03, 2017, 11:38:29 AM
I don't understand why would Imam Hussain (a.s) expect loyalty from treacherous and deceitful people i.e. Kufians? You have read the Islamic history more than me and are more grounded in knowledge relating to background issues surrounding such events. Do you believe Kufians were famous for their loyalty or bravery that a person should not only risk his life but also risk the lives of his family and friends for their sake?

Abdullah ibn Abbas, ibn Umar & ibn Zubayr never believed the deceptive letters of Kufians. They also tried to stop Imam Hussain (a.s) from going to Iraq. It was reasonable to sent Muslim ibn Aqeel to Iraq to assess the situation of Kufians but was it reasonable to take one's family to such a place? Shouldn't Imam Hussain (a.s) as a precaution had left his family in Medina and had taken instead strong organized force in case war breaks out in Iraq?

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 03, 2017, 01:12:10 PM
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Working at the moment but will respond. Nice question by the way. Point for you to note though, it's not just the Shia but also the vast majority of the Sunis (Ahle Suna Wal Jamah) also firmly believe that Hussein saved Islam.

I'm curious, but how did Husayn save Islam?

Yazeed remained in power & it passed on to his family.

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 03, 2017, 02:54:34 PM
I don't understand why would Imam Hussain (a.s) expect loyalty from treacherous and deceitful people i.e. Kufians? You have read the Islamic history more than me and are more grounded in knowledge relating to background issues surrounding such events. Do you believe Kufians were famous for their loyalty or bravery that a person should not only risk his life but also risk the lives of his family and friends for their sake?

First of all, seek the refuge of Allah from Al-Shaytan Al-Rajeem, take a step back, and consider what you are arguing.

It is as if you are saying: I do not understand the wisdom of Al-Hussain's trust in the Kufans, and THEREFORE, he must have sacrificed himself and his family!

Could this be the mental flow of anyone that hasn't been afflicted by the biases of his sect? It is clear to an objective mind that Al-Hussain had more faith in the Kufans than you do and was influenced by the amount of pledges that he received.

Do keep in mind that it isn't like there was only one week between Al-Hasan being let down by the Kufans and the Al-Hussain's acceptance of them. This happened after twenty years. Al-Hasan gave power to Mu'awiyah in the year 41 and Al-Hussain was killed in the year 61. A society does change in twenty years.

Quote
ibn Zubayr never believed the deceptive letters of Kufians. They also tried to stop Imam Hussain (a.s) from going to Iraq.

Now it is clearer to me that your reading of the events is incomplete. Ibn Al-Zubair actually advised Al-Hussain to go to Kufa. This is the narrative in the most authentic Shia source of the events (Abu Mikhnaf) as well as Ahl Al-Sunnah (Tareekh Khalifa bin Khayyat).
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 03, 2017, 03:59:09 PM
First of all, seek the refuge of Allah from Al-Shaytan Al-Rajeem, take a step back, and consider what you are arguing.

It is as if you are saying: I do not understand the wisdom of Al-Hussain's trust in the Kufans, and THEREFORE, he must have sacrificed himself and his family!

Could this be the mental flow of anyone that hasn't been afflicted by the biases of his sect? It is clear to an objective mind that Al-Hussain had more faith in the Kufans than you do and was influenced by the amount of pledges that he received.

Do keep in mind that it isn't like there was only one week between Al-Hasan being let down by the Kufans and the Al-Hussain's acceptance of them. This happened after twenty years. Al-Hasan gave power to Mu'awiyah in the year 41 and Al-Hussain was killed in the year 61. A society does change in twenty years.

What did the trust in Kufians result in?

Is it reasonable to have faith in disloyal and cowards pledging their allegiance even if the number of such pledges reached 100,000?

What did Kufians do when Imam Hussain (a.s) came to them? All of the cowards and disloyals broke their allegiance.

What change in Kufians did you notice in twenty years from year 41 till year 61? Did Kufians change from betrayers into loyalists or from cowards into brave warriors in these twenty years?

Now it is clearer to me that your reading of the events is incomplete. Ibn Al-Zubair actually advised Al-Hussain to go to Kufa. This is the narrative in the most authentic Shia source of the events (Abu Mikhnaf) as well as Ahl Al-Sunnah (Tareekh Khalifa bin Khayyat).

If you had read my previous post I had already cleared that I haven't read any authentic Sunni & Shia reports on this event. About ibn Zubair I got my info from the link pasted below:

https://islamqa.info/en/112051

Wise men who loved him had advised him not to go out to Iraq, but he insisted on going out to them. Among those who gave him this advice were: ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Abbaas, ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar, Abu Sa‘eed al-Khudri, Jaabir ibn ‘Abdullah, al-Miswar ibn Makhramah, and ‘Abdullah ibn az-Zubayr (may Allah be pleased with them all).
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Link on October 03, 2017, 04:38:19 PM
Ijtaba, it goes without saying that Al Hussain was caught off guard. He expected to enter Kufa and to be surrounded with people that would defend him.

He did not send Muslim bin Aqeel to get butchered purposefully. He did not head towards Iraq with knowledge of Muslim's death either.

He was not caught off guard. This is where we have to seek a middle ground. Yes he was going for victory, yes he didn't sent Muslim bin Aqeel to die, but he was not surprised by treachery that already occurred to Imam Hassan by these people and was already taking place during Imam Ali to some degree.

He was not some fool that didn't know the high risk he was taking.

And this is something you guys don't admit. He took a risk because he was trying to do something important.

That important thing we don't realize but it's alluded to in Quran "If you do not it there will great sedition and havoc in the earth".

Prophets were martyred all in vain in trying to prepare people for a world for Mohammad in which at the end was not prepared for him.

Ahlulbayt (as) blood is tragedy, because, it didn't save Islam. Neither Imam Hassan dying from poison,  neither the slaugher of Hussain, neither Imam Musa Al-Kadhim in prison - they could of chose victory any of them with the help of God and Angelic help,  but they are teaching humanity a final lesson: responsibility.

The oppressor, the helper, and the one who watches (but does nothing about it) are all associates in the same crimes of oppression. - Imam Jewad.

They in a sense saved Islam in the sense they left enough light that interprets the Quran properly and enough light to see, but fabrications were mixed with their truthful words, and ambiguities followed even during the lifetime and still now,  and they left a way for people to be guided to their leader of time and unite around him through the words of his predecessors that are verified by Quran, but their blood at the end like all the Prophets killed in the past, became something that is disgrace to humans and a shame, and not at all something productive that revived humanity.

Innovations are followed today,   leadership of Ahlulbayt (as) and it's clear proofs have been made confusing and ambigous by replacing by first by four direct representatives (leaders in all sense of the word) then supposed "Ayatollahs" and "Marjas" that people don't even realize the purpose of Ahlulbayt (as) in the first place and the contradiction that arises to Quran and their arguments regarding leadership.

And what was neglected was Shurah, we were all suppose to council one anothe regarding Quran and Sunnah, and gain insights and learn from one another as Quran says "be sages (scholars that are pious) by which you teach of the book and by what you study".

Peace.

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 03, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
@Ijtaba:

None of your issues with the Kufans is a direct answer to my original post, nor can any of what you have said be used as solid evidence that Al-Hussain willingly sacrificed himself and his family. Again, take a step back and think rationally about this.

You are putting your perspective, the perspective of a 15th century Muslim of the Kufans, over the apparent actions of Al-Hussain. The apparent actions of Al-Hussain shows that he trusted them enough.

Answer this simple question:

Were the apparent actions of Al-Hussain the actions of one who knew that he would be betrayed?

Quote
About ibn Zubair I got my info from the link pasted below:

https://islamqa.info/en/112051

Abu Mikhnaf and Khalifa bin Khayyat (through an authentic narration) hold much more weight than an anonymous writer at IslamQA.


Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Link on October 03, 2017, 04:59:59 PM
The apparent actions of Al-Hussain shows that he trusted them enough.

Can you prove that? It seems to be that the apparent actions are that he had enough hope but he still was aware of the high chance of treachery.

The fact he brought his family was showing the concept of "Husnal Dhan" to people's promises. If people gather to strive for justice, you don't turn them down. But he knew there was a high chance they were to back off and turn against their pledges and promises.

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 03, 2017, 05:29:56 PM
@Ijtaba:

None of your issues with the Kufans is a direct answer to my original post, nor can any of what you have said be used as solid evidence that Al-Hussain willingly sacrificed himself and his family. Again, take a step back and think rationally about this.

You are putting your perspective, the perspective of a 15th century Muslim of the Kufans, over the apparent actions of Al-Hussain. The apparent actions of Al-Hussain shows that he trusted them enough.

That is to say he (Imam Hussain a.s) had enough trust on betrayers and disloyal people.

Scenario: If I trust a person who is known for his disloyalty and betrayal and that disloyal betrayer leaves me alone in dangerous situation then who is to blame? Me who trusted the betrayer or the Betrayer who left me?

Answer this simple question:

Were the apparent actions of Al-Hussain the actions of one who knew that he would be betrayed?

Imam Hussain (a.s) hoping loyalty from people who left his father (a.s) and brother (a.s) alone in their times of need is far from reality. Imam Hussain's (a.s) apparent action of taking his family with himself is strong evidence that he knew he would be betrayed.

Abu Mikhnaf and Khalifa bin Khayyat (through an authentic narration) hold much more weight than an anonymous writer at IslamQA.

I did not disagree with you. I just gave the link to show that it was not a thing which I made up but that I read it from Ahlul Sunnah's website. I also believe Abu Mikhnaf and Khalifa bin Khayyat (through an authentic narration) hold much more weight than an anonymous writer at IslamQA.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 03, 2017, 10:16:05 PM
Ok Farid, what exactly was the issue between Yazeed and Hussein? Lets start off from here. What's your opinion.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 03, 2017, 11:22:36 PM
Imam Hussain (a.s) hoping loyalty from people who left his father (a.s) and brother (a.s) alone in their times of need is far from reality. Imam Hussain's (a.s) apparent action of taking his family with himself is strong evidence that he knew he would be betrayed.

If that is your strongest evidence, then you have to re-examine your beliefs on Al-Hussain, because again, you are forcing your judgement upon the people of Kufa, instead of accepting Al-Hussain's faith in them.

Also, refer to my original post. I've clearly stated that Al-Hussain attempted to back out from Karbala, which shows that he did not plan on getting sacrificed, nor did he want to get his family killed, which is a great sin by the way.

Ok Farid, what exactly was the issue between Yazeed and Hussein? Lets start off from here. What's your opinion.

Brother, refer to the original post. Even though Al-Hussain and Yazeed are linked to this topic, I am not interested in an endless discourse that will continue on for pages without any major benefit. If you want to discuss their relationship, I suggest starting a new thread. If you have something that you want to get at that is directly linked to the topic and the question I asked, then please present what you have.


Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 04, 2017, 12:18:29 AM
Imam Hussain (a.s) hoping loyalty from people who left his father (a.s) and brother (a.s) alone in their times of need is far from reality. Imam Hussain's (a.s) apparent action of taking his family with himself is strong evidence that he knew he would be betrayed.

If that is your strongest evidence, then you have to re-examine your beliefs on Al-Hussain, because again, you are forcing your judgement upon the people of Kufa, instead of accepting Al-Hussain's faith in them.

Also, refer to my original post. I've clearly stated that Al-Hussain attempted to back out from Karbala, which shows that he did not plan on getting sacrificed, nor did he want to get his family killed, which is a great sin by the way.

Ok Farid, what exactly was the issue between Yazeed and Hussein? Lets start off from here. What's your opinion.

Brother, refer to the original post. Even though Al-Hussain and Yazeed are linked to this topic, I am not interested in an endless discourse that will continue on for pages without any major benefit. If you want to discuss their relationship, I suggest starting a new thread. If you have something that you want to get at that is directly linked to the topic and the question I asked, then please present what you have.

Ok, no problem.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 04, 2017, 12:38:51 AM
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Correction, Shias and Sunis both believe that Hussein sacrificed himself to save Islam or Hussein's sacrifice saved Islam. A different group who claims to be Suni believe otherwise.

They believe that it was a matter of Baya and it was just a tragic incident. And what Yazeed did was wrong and stepped over the mark by ordering the killing of Hussein.

Another group calls Yazeed Hazrath and RA and they believe Hussein's approach was wrong by not giving baya to Yazeed and refusing to accept him as the Muslim Khalif. They consider Hussein's approach as rebellious.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 04, 2017, 01:11:16 AM
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Correction, Shias and Sunis both believe that Hussein sacrificed himself to save Islam or Hussein's sacrifice saved Islam.

We are in agreement that Shias hold this belief. You have not provided any proof that Sunnis believe that he willingly sacrificed himself and his family.

...and do you have proof that he willingly did this?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hani on October 04, 2017, 05:15:13 AM
I recall a narration I translated once and deemed authentic at the time, a man came to al-Hasan after the Fitnah was extinguished and found him destroying a bunch of letters, al-Hasan said they were letters from the Kufans, he said: "I do not fear them for myself. I fear them for that man." al-Hasan pointed towards his brother Husayn.

If anyone can dig this up I'd be thankful!

If I am to give my perspective, Kufans simply managed to convince al-Husayn, his older brother dealt with them previously so he wisely avoided their traps. Husayn however seemed to be a lot more hot blooded than his brother based on my historical reading so far, they insisted on him and made him a million promises and guarantees, he was finally convinced and motivated to reform the nation through rebellion, it was his only chance. That doesn't mean he was 100% certain the Kufans wouldn't back-stab him, that's why he sent his cousin to make sure things were as they described.

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: muslim720 on October 04, 2017, 05:17:04 AM
Salaam alaykum wa rahmatullah,
As is the norm for me, I was present at a few Muharram lectures.  Due to health reasons, I was only able to attend three nights but Alhamdulilah, it was enough to put a few things in perspective.

I was listening to this ayatollah from Afghanistan (was refreshing to run into one of those) and night after night, he would touch upon different topics.  I noticed that I was not the only Sunni there; in fact, a friend of mine told me that one of the Friday khutbahs (a day or two before Ashura) at a Sunni mosque was in regards to what happened in Karbala.  I welcome this initiative by Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama'ah because our silence is misconstrued as our weakness or ignorance. 

Nonetheless, the ayatollah one night, noticing the presence of Sunnis at the gathering, acknowledged that Imam Hussain (ra) belongs not just to the Shias and that leading Friday prayers in Kabul, he would often hear the Sunni mosque across the street praise Ahlul Bayt (ra) right after mentioning the Prophet (saw).  He even went on to say that a lot that has been narrated about, and from, Imam Hassan (ra) and Imam Hussain (ra) are found in Sunni books.  In other words, the Shias rely on them to see what they had narrated.

What got to me was that on the "Night of Abbas", he mentioned that Abbas (ra) - the brother of Imam Hussain (ra) - was ready to pounce on the enemy but was awaiting the go-ahead from Imam Hussain (ra).  He continued by saying that Abbas (ra) was just like his father, Imam Ali (ra), and that he would have crushed hundreds of the enemy forces all by himself.  However, Imam Hussain (ra), as he continued the story, did not permit Abbas (ra) to launch an attack on the enemy because Imam Hussain (ra) did not want bloodshed.  I was sitting there wondering then why did Imam Hussain (ra) leave for Kufa?  To give dawah to Yazeed?  To talk to his army?  To preach?

Seeing stories contradict from one mosque to another or one gathering to another, it is hard to sit and listen patiently.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 04, 2017, 07:20:43 AM
a normal, sane, responsible family leader will not bring his extended family to a battle, let alone to be slaughtered and i believe 10000% that a noble, brave, responsible family leader like Husayn ibn Ali ra was such a person.

I totally agree with you but the question is why did Imam Hussain (a.s) go to Iraq? A sane responsible family leader would not only put the lives of his family in danger but would also save his life.
Why? Its simple, because he didnt know its gonna end up that way, that his so called shia would abandoned him. The reason why its difficult for you to swallow that is because youve been fed lies by shia scholars that he knew whats gonna happen.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 04, 2017, 01:24:41 PM
Just read all the posts. Don't worry will address each point. It is very important. One step at a time guys.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 04, 2017, 01:53:04 PM
Ok, different points are being mentioned and raised all at once. I clearly see that no one wants to get in to a discussion or work towards an argument or difference. It is obvious that people don't want to get caught up in anything.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 04, 2017, 02:52:20 PM
Right. Lets start from the beginning but keep it nice and short and according to the thread.
Muawiya appointed Yazeed as his successor and was getting the Muslims to accept Yazeed as Khalifatul Muslimeen. He wanted people to give baya to Yazeed.

Now the Muslims had serious concerns about this. Yazeed grew up as a Christian. His mother and her relations were all Christians. And their profession was to entertain people by singing and dancing. This is how they earned their living.

One, Yazeed's baya was took by heavy handed tactics from some Muslims and through violent and threatening behaviour from the others.

Two, Yazeed was altering and tampering with Sharia Law. He was making changes in principals and amendments in rules and regulations. Just as the Christians have done since times have changed and people have to accept these changes and move on.

The Muslims knew what was happening and about Yazeed's character and ways. They wrote to people of Madina, high ranking individuals, Ahle Bayth, Sahaba and other important individuals and personalities, But Hussein was the only one to answer their call and to look in to things.

To be continued !
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 04, 2017, 03:31:34 PM
So you are saying that Al Hussain's sacrifice was to put an end to Yazeed who was altering the principles of Islam.

What principles are you talking about? Do provide references please.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 04, 2017, 06:08:27 PM
So you are saying that Al Hussain's sacrifice was to put an end to Yazeed who was altering the principles of Islam.

What principles are you talking about? Do provide references please.

Let me complete this then we shall take this further despite the outcome.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 04, 2017, 06:49:39 PM
If you are going to be providing a historical context to justify your belief, instead of providing a straight forward answer to a basic question, then do expect your historical context to be scrutinized every step of the way.

By the way, I find it interesting how Shias, who claim to be the sect of aql, are making all these flimsy logical leaps in order to justify their beliefs in this supposed sacrifice.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Khaled on October 04, 2017, 08:24:05 PM
Two, Yazeed was altering and tampering with Sharia Law. He was making changes in principals and amendments in rules and regulations. Just as the Christians have done since times have changed and people have to accept these changes and move on.

السلام عليكم, I'd love that, while doing your analysis, you can provide us with some examples and references to the things you mention.  I'd love some (concrete, practical) examples of Yazeed changing the shari'ah, and I'd love to know how Hussein رضي الله عنه revolting against him stopped this from happening. 

Quote
The Muslims knew what was happening and about Yazeed's character and ways. They wrote to people of Madina, high ranking individuals, Ahle Bayth, Sahaba and other important individuals and personalities, But Hussein was the only one to answer their call and to look in to things.

To be continued !

So the Muslims were complaining to and attempting to take the pledge from Hussein رضي الله عنه not because he was an infallible Imam, but because he was one of many Ahl al-Bayt or Sahaba who would've been equally as qualified to lead the Muslims?

I'm a little confused on that second point if you don't mind clearing it up, بارك الله فيك
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Khaled on October 04, 2017, 08:27:43 PM
Correction, Shias and Sunis both believe that Hussein sacrificed himself to save Islam or Hussein's sacrifice saved Islam. A different group who claims to be Suni believe otherwise.

Which group of Sunnis, بارك الله فيك, believe Hussein رضي الله عنه's action saved Islam?  Is this the position of the 4 schools of fiqh, or the Ash'ari, Maturidi, Athari or even Mu'tazali aqeedah?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 04, 2017, 09:14:35 PM
So husayn sacrificed himself & almost his entire family to save Islam from the evil ruler Yazeed.
Yet Ali did nothing to Abu Bakr or Umar or Uthman. Hasan in fact stepped down to allow Muawiya to rule.

Who's story makes more sense? Shia story?

Or the sunni story that states the firsy three caliphs were righteous & Muawiya was no kafir (despite his obvious short comings in certain aspects), and that unlike the previous rulers, yazeed was a tyrant & hence why Husayn fought him?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 04, 2017, 09:22:25 PM
What about the sacrifice of Zayd ibn Ali & his son yahya or the sons of Hasan ibn Ali ibn Abu Talib's offspring such as nafs al zakiyya? Surely they followed Husayn's example more than the Imams the ithna ashari follow after Husayn? These Imams who the ithna ashari follow after Husayn were more in line with following the example of Hasan.
The Irony.

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hani on October 04, 2017, 11:04:50 PM
If Husayn revolted because Yazid changed Religious rulings, why didn't he revolt when Muawiyah changed them? Or did Muawiyah not change anything?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Freja Rasmussen on October 05, 2017, 01:42:14 AM
His advisers did warn him radiallahu anhum before going... and they even said that if you're going at least don't go with your women folk and children. They all new the people of Kufa were a people of deception and they were aware of what happened Ali radiallahu anhu... Yazeed never ordered the killing either. So... If Hussayn radiallahu anhu was sacraficed for Islam, Uthman radillahu anhu was doing so as well because he was also brutally murdered unjustly. Some of the best people of the ummah were martyred and but the shia are so obsessed with only a few because they are busy backbiting and slandering the rest. Honestly, if Hussayn radiallahu anhu got brutally killed, do you really think he'd be happy seing his "followers" beating themselves up? Cutting their children? Like for real. He was martyred. Islam is what Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam practised and the sahabah and ahlul bayt radiallahu anhum followed... So do what Allah azzawajal has commanded and what Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam did and stop innovate all this nonsense and attribute filth to these noble people radiallahu anhum. Hussayn went, even though he got signs not to go, and he was martyred. MARTYRED. He is in jannah, what else do you want?! Try to strive for jannah instead of striving for your destruction, ya shia. Allah azzawajal is so clear in the Qur'an. He is Al-Haqq, would He lie to us? Audhu billah, ofcourse not! If Hussayn radiallahu anhu could make duaa when the baby was struck with an arrow, dua for patience, then if you are a true follower you should engage in duaa for patience and forgiveness and not commit shirk and whatnot! Shia tries to prove their points with out sources like Bukhari etc. You  come with one saheeh hadith saying one thing about Ali radiallahu anhu and therefor you say Abu Bakr radiallahu annhu is baaaad but you don't give us the SAHEEEH hadith thta speaks WELL about Abu Bakr radiallahu anhu etc, so you are very cheap. You are indeed a very odd people. Very odd.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 11:16:13 AM
A question we need to ask ourselves is that why did Yazeed replace his governer in Kufa with ibne Ziyaad. Because ibne Ziyaad was very well known for his brutal natural and ruthless stance. He was known for his heavy handed tactics and would be able to crush the uprising by controlling the Kufans.

And this is exactly what he did through extreme means of violence and threatening behaviour. The Kufans are accused of betrayal,  that is not true. Extreme violence was used to kerb and control the Kufans. They were persecuted. They were tortured and murdered.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 11:28:56 AM
At that time and in those days we didn't have technology and the media we have today where news and information travels so fast and people are made or become aware so quickly.

Why was Yazeed so eager for Hussein's baya? That would definitely give Yazeed's Khilafat the ultimate seal of approval. It would give Yazeed's governance the legitimacy that he so badly needed. Otherwise he knew he was doomed.

Hussein's response. Hussein did not say;
"I will not give baya to Yazeed or Yazeed does not deserve baya". NO. But in fact Hussein laid down the principle by saying, making and giving such a beautiful statement that;
"Someone like me can never accept someone like Yazeed as Khalifa, someone like me can never give baya to someone like Yazeed".
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 12:20:10 PM
Hussein didn't want to fight but was forced to fight. He was pushed to engage in conflict. And Hussein responded so beautifully by saying,
"I'd rather die a bloody death than live a life as a coward".

When Hussein and his companions were eventually killed their bodies were refused funeral. Where did Islam go here? Their bodies were trampled by horses. What does Islam say here? The heads were cut off from the bodies and put on spears. What does Islam say about this?

And when the heads reached Yazeed's residence and were brought before him what did Yazeed say?
"Now I have avenged the killings of my ancestors in the battle of Badr". Where is Islam here?

And you talk about How Hussein saved Islam? And you say this wasn't about Islam. And you ask for references. Answer me this,  do you honestly believe that those who get in to authority and gain power they will leave things/material lying around which opposes them, that goes against them and which is damaging towards them?

Would you? But I will still put references forward despite that they will be rejected point blank right to begin with. Why? Because you have a mind set, you are already programmed to a tune and you severely suffer from this anti Shia fever which stops you from having an open mind and refrains you from thinking straight.

But still this must go on because people have a right to know and we have to deal with this propaganda against us by certain individuals who hide under the Ahle Sunah umbrella and launch these fake accusations and false allegations.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 05, 2017, 12:22:08 PM
Why was Yazeed so eager for Hussein's baya? That would definitely give Yazeed's Khilafat the ultimate seal of approval. It would give Yazeed's governance the legitimacy that he so badly needed. Otherwise he knew he was doomed.

Hussein's response. Hussein did not say;
"I will not give baya to Yazeed or Yazeed does not deserve baya". NO. But in fact Hussein laid down the principle by saying, making and giving such a beautiful statement that;
"Someone like me can never accept someone like Yazeed as Khalifa, someone like me can never give baya to someone like Yazeed".
and yet husayn ra accepted yazid's dad whom shia said was a munafiq/kafir as a legitimate khalifa. Well, shia bollywood version of history never makes sense
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 12:31:50 PM
People are bringing in other matters like;
and why didn't Ali do something about Abu Bakr and Omar.
and what about the sacrifice of Zayd ibne Ali and his sons.
what about the killing of Usman,
and why didn't Hussein revolt against Moawiyah etc.
Please lets stick to the thread, subject and what is being discussed. If you want to discuss other matters then please by all means start a different thread. Rest assured everything will be addressed and handled. One step at a time
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 12:34:03 PM
Why was Yazeed so eager for Hussein's baya? That would definitely give Yazeed's Khilafat the ultimate seal of approval. It would give Yazeed's governance the legitimacy that he so badly needed. Otherwise he knew he was doomed.

Hussein's response. Hussein did not say;
"I will not give baya to Yazeed or Yazeed does not deserve baya". NO. But in fact Hussein laid down the principle by saying, making and giving such a beautiful statement that;
"Someone like me can never accept someone like Yazeed as Khalifa, someone like me can never give baya to someone like Yazeed".
and yet husayn ra accepted yazid's dad whom shia said was a munafiq/kafir as a legitimate khalifa. Well, shia bollywood version of history never makes sense

Like I said lets stick to the subject. One step at a time. Steady on there!
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 05, 2017, 12:34:44 PM
maybe because you couldnt answer a simple question? Farid asked you a question which hasnt been answered, just like you didnt answer a question in anoter thread
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 05, 2017, 12:36:43 PM
Why was Yazeed so eager for Hussein's baya? That would definitely give Yazeed's Khilafat the ultimate seal of approval. It would give Yazeed's governance the legitimacy that he so badly needed. Otherwise he knew he was doomed.

Hussein's response. Hussein did not say;
"I will not give baya to Yazeed or Yazeed does not deserve baya". NO. But in fact Hussein laid down the principle by saying, making and giving such a beautiful statement that;
"Someone like me can never accept someone like Yazeed as Khalifa, someone like me can never give baya to someone like Yazeed".
and yet husayn ra accepted yazid's dad whom shia said was a munafiq/kafir as a legitimate khalifa. Well, shia bollywood version of history never makes sense

Like I said lets stick to the subject. One step at a time. Steady on there!
well it is related to subject. Muawiyah was as bad as yazid according to shia, but husayn ra pledge allegiance to him and gave his khilafa legitimacy. Any other bollywood excuses? 😁
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on October 05, 2017, 12:51:01 PM
A question we need to ask ourselves is that why did Yazeed replace his governer in Kufa with ibne Ziyaad. Because ibne Ziyaad was very well known for his brutal natural and ruthless stance. He was known for his heavy handed tactics and would be able to crush the uprising by controlling the Kufans.

And this is exactly what he did through extreme means of violence and threatening behaviour. The Kufans are accused of betrayal,  that is not true. Extreme violence was used to kerb and control the Kufans. They were persecuted. They were tortured and murdered.

A simple question you need to ask yourself is that Ibn Ziyad came with only 17 men while those Kufans giving bay'ah to Al-Hussein was 12,000. That numbers alone shows you that Ibn Ziyad could have been easily crushed by them, if they really wanted to. But their inability to do that showed the kind of people the Kufans were and put your argument directly down the drain.

Even with Umar Ibn Sa'ad's forces, they only numbered 4,000, still lower than 12,000. Moreover, they came after the Ibn Ziyad came to Kufah.

What a pathetic argument!
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: MuslimK on October 05, 2017, 01:01:56 PM
Some sermons of Ali in Nahjul-Balagha about his followers in Kufa, they were known for their treachery:

Sermon #39: “I am faced with men who do not obey when I order and do not respond when I call them. May you have no father! (Woe to you!)...

Sermon #29: “...You claim in your sittings that you would do this and that, but when fighting approaches, you say (to war), “turn thou away” (i.e. flee away)....

Sermon #25: ...Even if I give you charge of a wooden bowl I fear you would run away with its handle. O’ Allah they are disgusted of me and I am disgusted of them...

More:
http://nahjul-balagha.net/the-companions-of-ali-bin-abi-talib/

http://nahjul-balagha.net/companions-of-the-prophet-vs-companions-of-ali/
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 01:16:08 PM
maybe because you couldnt answer a simple question? Farid asked you a question which hasnt been answered, just like you didnt answer a question in anoter thread

Open your eyes and then read. That's your job and there's nothing I can do about that.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 01:19:47 PM
Some sermons of Ali in Nahjul-Balagha about his followers in Kufa, they were known for their treachery:

Sermon #39: “I am faced with men who do not obey when I order and do not respond when I call them. May you have no father! (Woe to you!)...

Sermon #29: “...You claim in your sittings that you would do this and that, but when fighting approaches, you say (to war), “turn thou away” (i.e. flee away)....

Sermon #25: ...Even if I give you charge of a wooden bowl I fear you would run away with its handle. O’ Allah they are disgusted of me and I am disgusted of them...

More:
http://nahjul-balagha.net/the-companions-of-ali-bin-abi-talib/

http://nahjul-balagha.net/companions-of-the-prophet-vs-companions-of-ali/

These weren't his followers these were the Muslims. This was and is the fate of the Muslims. What do you think of the Muslims now? How graceful and honourable do you think they are?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 01:25:32 PM
A question we need to ask ourselves is that why did Yazeed replace his governer in Kufa with ibne Ziyaad. Because ibne Ziyaad was very well known for his brutal natural and ruthless stance. He was known for his heavy handed tactics and would be able to crush the uprising by controlling the Kufans.

And this is exactly what he did through extreme means of violence and threatening behaviour. The Kufans are accused of betrayal,  that is not true. Extreme violence was used to kerb and control the Kufans. They were persecuted. They were tortured and murdered.

A simple question you need to ask yourself is that Ibn Ziyad came with only 17 men while those Kufans giving bay'ah to Al-Hussein was 12,000. That numbers alone shows you that Ibn Ziyad could have been easily crushed by them, if they really wanted to. But their inability to do that showed the kind of people the Kufans were and put your argument directly down the drain.

Even with Umar Ibn Sa'ad's forces, they only numbered 4,000, still lower than 12,000. Moreover, they came after the Ibn Ziyad came to Kufah.

What a pathetic argument!

These Kufans were Muslims just like you and just like those who believed in Khilafath. They weren't Imamiya. The Shias were those who stood by Hussein and perished and those who were persecuted by ibne Ziyad and those who were arrested and locked up or under house arrest like Mukhtar Sakafi etc.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 01:33:45 PM
My argument isn't pathetic but this is;
the Shias killed Hussein and it was the Shias who betrayed him and it was also the Shias who allowed his killing by standing by and it was the Shias who did this and it was the Shias who did that.

It seems and sounds like the vast majority of the Ummah was Shia Imamiya. Where was the Sunis and how did Khilafath exceed if Shias were everyone. Who sent forces to attack Madina after Karbala? And after this who sent forces to Mecca to attack the Holy Kaba? And are you still going to tell us that it wasn't about Islam?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 01:37:05 PM
Why was Yazeed so eager for Hussein's baya? That would definitely give Yazeed's Khilafat the ultimate seal of approval. It would give Yazeed's governance the legitimacy that he so badly needed. Otherwise he knew he was doomed.

Hussein's response. Hussein did not say;
"I will not give baya to Yazeed or Yazeed does not deserve baya". NO. But in fact Hussein laid down the principle by saying, making and giving such a beautiful statement that;
"Someone like me can never accept someone like Yazeed as Khalifa, someone like me can never give baya to someone like Yazeed".
and yet husayn ra accepted yazid's dad whom shia said was a munafiq/kafir as a legitimate khalifa. Well, shia bollywood version of history never makes sense

Like I said lets stick to the subject. One step at a time. Steady on there!
well it is related to subject. Muawiyah was as bad as yazid according to shia, but husayn ra pledge allegiance to him and gave his khilafa legitimacy. Any other bollywood excuses? 😁

Start another bollywood thread and then we will discuss it. Please stick to the subject. Just read and listen or do something else but useful if you can't contribute positively.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 05, 2017, 02:28:15 PM
Iceman said:

Quote
When Hussein and his companions were eventually killed their bodies were refused funeral. Where did Islam go here? Their bodies were trampled by horses. What does Islam say here? The heads were cut off from the bodies and put on spears. What does Islam say about this?

And when the heads reached Yazeed's residence and were brought before him what did Yazeed say?
"Now I have avenged the killings of my ancestors in the battle of Badr". Where is Islam here?

And you talk about How Hussein saved Islam? And you say this wasn't about Islam. And you ask for references. Answer me this,  do you honestly believe that those who get in to authority and gain power they will leave things/material lying around which opposes them, that goes against them and which is damaging towards them?

You are correct in stating that these actions are un-Islamic, but you did not explain how Islam was saved by Al-Hussain's "sacrifice".

Most, if not all, political Muslim leaders today do un-Islamic things. Some are worse than others. However, Islam will continue to exist after they are six feet under. No matter how influential today, nobody can destroy Islam in the way that you are suggesting that Yazeed was going to.

The biggest crime that you have mentioned was the martyrdom of Al-Hussain. Wouldn't that mean that if he didn't "sacrifice" himself, then the crimes of Yazeed would have been much less significant?

The worst thing that you have mentioned about Yazeed, pre-Karbala, is that his mother used to dance. I'm not sure if you mentioned that he used to drink. Even though there are question marks around both accusations, I do not believe that these two things would lead to the destruction of Islam.

Oh, and Al-Hussain had nothing to do with the Battle of Badr, so please do not believe fabrications about Yazeed celebrating vengeance over his forefathers. You speak as if Ali killed a hundred people from Bani Umayyah in Badr. There were only four that were killed and only one (Al-Aas bin Sa'eed) may have been killed by Ali, while some scholars said that he was killed by Abu Yaseer Ka'ab bin Amr.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 05, 2017, 03:53:59 PM
If that is your strongest evidence, then you have to re-examine your beliefs on Al-Hussain, because again, you are forcing your judgement upon the people of Kufa, instead of accepting Al-Hussain's faith in them.

Also, refer to my original post. I've clearly stated that Al-Hussain attempted to back out from Karbala, which shows that he did not plan on getting sacrificed, nor did he want to get his family killed, which is a great sin by the way.

Agreed. Imam Hussain (a.s) never planned on getting sacrificed nor wanted his family to be killed.

Imam Hussain (a.s) attempting to back out from Karbala brings following questions in my mind:

- When did Imam Hussain (a.s) get to know about Muslim bin Aqeel's death and betrayal of Kufians?

- At the time when Imam Hussain (a.s) got news about Muslim bin Aqeel's death and betrayal of Kufians... what did Imam Hussain (a.s) do? Did he stop his journey to Kufa and head back towards Mecca or Medina?

- If he (a.s) did not head back towards Mecca... what was the reason for this? Was he surrounded by the Syrian armies at that time?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 05, 2017, 04:03:50 PM
Why? Its simple, because he didnt know its gonna end up that way, that his so called shia would abandoned him. The reason why its difficult for you to swallow that is because youve been fed lies by shia scholars that he knew whats gonna happen.

Imam Hussain (a.s) was really surprised when he saw his so called shias (i.e. Kufians) abandoning him. He saw these Kufians abandoning his father Imam Ali (a.s) and his brother Imam Hassan (a.s) and yet trusted them so much that he accepted their call and went to them. But who would have known these known disloyal, cowards, betrayers would betray Imam Hussain (a.s).

Even I am shocked how could these known betrayers and disloyal people leave Imam Hussain (a.s) alone against Syrian army?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 05, 2017, 04:07:58 PM
Some sermons of Ali in Nahjul-Balagha about his followers in Kufa, they were known for their treachery:

Sermon #39: “I am faced with men who do not obey when I order and do not respond when I call them. May you have no father! (Woe to you!)...

Sermon #29: “...You claim in your sittings that you would do this and that, but when fighting approaches, you say (to war), “turn thou away” (i.e. flee away)....

Sermon #25: ...Even if I give you charge of a wooden bowl I fear you would run away with its handle. O’ Allah they are disgusted of me and I am disgusted of them...

More:
http://nahjul-balagha.net/the-companions-of-ali-bin-abi-talib/

http://nahjul-balagha.net/companions-of-the-prophet-vs-companions-of-ali/

But still Imam Hussain (a.s) accepted their call of pledging allegiance and went to them with his family and close friends. This shows the love Imam Hussain (a.s) had for them i.e. Kufians.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 05, 2017, 04:20:11 PM
@ Ijtaba:

Quote
Agreed. Imam Hussain (a.s) never planned on getting sacrificed nor wanted his family to be killed.

Just to make sure, are you currently of the opinion that he didn't plan on this, but ended up sacrificing himself to save Islam after he made his trip? Or are you of the opinion that he never sacrificed himself in any case and that the Shi'ee belief that he did is incorrect?

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 05, 2017, 04:31:02 PM
@ Ijtaba:
Just to make sure, are you currently of the opinion that he didn't plan on this, but ended up sacrificing himself to save Islam after he made his trip? Or are you of the opinion that he never sacrificed himself in any case and that the Shi'ee belief that he did is incorrect?

My understanding is Imam Hussain (a.s) and his family (a.s) never wanted to sacrifice their lives for disloyal betrayers but it was the Will of ALLAH (SWT) to which Imam Hussain (a.s) and his family (a.s) submitted. My belief is ALLAH (SWT) made known to Imam Hussain (a.s) that HE (SWT) wanted Imam Hussain (a.s) and his family (a.s) to be sacrificed in Karbala.

You can disagree with me and we can agree to disagree on this issue.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 04:37:33 PM
Why? Its simple, because he didnt know its gonna end up that way, that his so called shia would abandoned him. The reason why its difficult for you to swallow that is because youve been fed lies by shia scholars that he knew whats gonna happen.

Imam Hussain (a.s) was really surprised when he saw his so called shias (i.e. Kufians) abandoning him. He saw these Kufians abandoning his father Imam Ali (a.s) and his brother Imam Hassan (a.s) and yet trusted them so much that he accepted their call and went to them. But who would have known these known disloyal, cowards, betrayers would betray Imam Hussain (a.s).

Even I am shocked how could these known betrayers and disloyal people leave Imam Hussain (a.s) alone against Syrian army?

A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 04:45:10 PM
@ Ijtaba:
Just to make sure, are you currently of the opinion that he didn't plan on this, but ended up sacrificing himself to save Islam after he made his trip? Or are you of the opinion that he never sacrificed himself in any case and that the Shi'ee belief that he did is incorrect?

My understanding is Imam Hussain (a.s) and his family (a.s) never wanted to sacrifice their lives for disloyal betrayers but it was the Will of ALLAH (SWT) to which Imam Hussain (a.s) and his family (a.s) submitted. My belief is ALLAH (SWT) made known to Imam Hussain (a.s) that HE (SWT) wanted Imam Hussain (a.s) and his family (a.s) to be sacrificed in Karbala.

You can disagree with me and we can agree to disagree on this issue.

How loyal were the people of Madina? The remaining companions of the Prophet (s) and the children of those who passed away? How concerned are the leaders of Muslim countries about the killings in Burma? Just as concerned and loyal as those who watched and witnessed the killing of Hussein and did nothing about it. They just comforted and satisfied themselves like you do by putting the entire blame on Kufans and the Shias like no Sunis or Muslims existed apart from the Kufans and the Shias. It's time to have some shame.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on October 05, 2017, 05:13:22 PM
Why? Its simple, because he didnt know its gonna end up that way, that his so called shia would abandoned him. The reason why its difficult for you to swallow that is because youve been fed lies by shia scholars that he knew whats gonna happen.

Imam Hussain (a.s) was really surprised when he saw his so called shias (i.e. Kufians) abandoning him. He saw these Kufians abandoning his father Imam Ali (a.s) and his brother Imam Hassan (a.s) and yet trusted them so much that he accepted their call and went to them. But who would have known these known disloyal, cowards, betrayers would betray Imam Hussain (a.s).

Even I am shocked how could these known betrayers and disloyal people leave Imam Hussain (a.s) alone against Syrian army?

A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

Big question? Not big at all...

"Sunnis" already warned Al-Hussein not to go but he insisted. So, spare your blame to somebody else...
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on October 05, 2017, 05:21:41 PM
A question we need to ask ourselves is that why did Yazeed replace his governer in Kufa with ibne Ziyaad. Because ibne Ziyaad was very well known for his brutal natural and ruthless stance. He was known for his heavy handed tactics and would be able to crush the uprising by controlling the Kufans.

And this is exactly what he did through extreme means of violence and threatening behaviour. The Kufans are accused of betrayal,  that is not true. Extreme violence was used to kerb and control the Kufans. They were persecuted. They were tortured and murdered.

A simple question you need to ask yourself is that Ibn Ziyad came with only 17 men while those Kufans giving bay'ah to Al-Hussein was 12,000. That numbers alone shows you that Ibn Ziyad could have been easily crushed by them, if they really wanted to. But their inability to do that showed the kind of people the Kufans were and put your argument directly down the drain.

Even with Umar Ibn Sa'ad's forces, they only numbered 4,000, still lower than 12,000. Moreover, they came after the Ibn Ziyad came to Kufah.

What a pathetic argument!

These Kufans were Muslims just like you and just like those who believed in Khilafath. They weren't Imamiya. The Shias were those who stood by Hussein and perished and those who were persecuted by ibne Ziyad and those who were arrested and locked up or under house arrest like Mukhtar Sakafi etc.

Haha… suddenly those who gave the bay'ah to Al-Hussein as well as sent hundreds of letters requesting him to come to Kufah were not imamis nor Shi'i but a people just like us... LOL… That's another pathetic argument…
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 05, 2017, 05:24:42 PM
A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

You should direct this question to Ahlul Sunnah brothers & sisters on this forum because it is concerning them and they can answer it better because I cannot answer on their behalf.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 05, 2017, 05:40:41 PM
A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

Big question? Not big at all...

"Sunnis" already warned Al-Hussein not to go but he insisted. So, spare your blame to somebody else...

According to you who that somebody is? "Sunnis" already warned Imam Hussain (a.s) not to go but Imam Hussain (a.s) went not heeding to their warning.

Scenario: If somebody warns me not to go to a particular place as it is dangerous and I could get killed by going there but I do not heed to his warning and go that place and get killed. Who is to be blamed???
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 05, 2017, 05:54:45 PM
A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

Big question? Not big at all...

"Sunnis" already warned Al-Hussein not to go but he insisted. So, spare your blame to somebody else...

According to you who that somebody is? "Sunnis" already warned Imam Hussain (a.s) not to go but Imam Hussain (a.s) went not heeding to their warning.

Scenario: If somebody warns me not to go to a particular place as it is dangerous and I could get killed by going there but I do not heed to his warning and go that place and get killed. Who is to be blamed???

Are you referring to the people of Madina? Well Yazeed didn't spare them either when he attacked Madina after Karbala. It would have been better for them to die with Hussein as martyrs because them holding back didn't save their lives since later on  they got killed as cowards after Karbala.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on October 05, 2017, 07:10:00 PM

According to you who that somebody is? "Sunnis" already warned Imam Hussain (a.s) not to go but Imam Hussain (a.s) went not heeding to their warning.

Scenario: If somebody warns me not to go to a particular place as it is dangerous and I could get killed by going there but I do not heed to his warning and go that place and get killed. Who is to be blamed???


I'll summarize the event based on what I heard and read.

After Muawiyyah died, Yazid ascended to become the khalifah. The Governor of Madinah called Hussein to give the oath of allegiance to Yazid. However, he told the governor to give him time and instead, he packed things up and moved to Makkah together with his family.

The news that Hussein didn't give bay'ah and move to Makkah reached people of Iraq especially Kufah and they were overjoyed. They started to send letters and delegation to Hussein requesting him to come to Kufah and be their leader. The stream of letters that kept pouring in prompt Hussein to sent Muslim ibn Aqeel to Kufah to check the situation out there.

Upon his arrival, Muslim saw the overwhelming support given by Kufians including bay'ah by 12,000 of them to Hussein at the hand of Muslim. Upon getting this, Muslim promotly sent a message to Hussein request Hussein to immediately come to Kufah upon receiving the message.

In the meantime, Yazid sensed something amiss in Kufa and sent the vicious Ibn Ziyad together with 17 other people to Kufa to investigate and be the new Governor there. When he arrived, he found that the rumour was true. He also found out that Muslim was in Kufah. To cut story short, he captured Muslim and killed him and the people of Kufah essentially did nothing to stop the killing despite initial oath of allegiance given.

In Makkah, upon receiving Muslim's message, Hussein immediately made preparation for journey to Kufah together with his entourage that include his family and started his journey despite warning from sahabahs who were still alive in Hijjaz area. The day he started his journey was one day before the killing of Muslim. No way he would know that Muslim had been killed.

Back to Muslim, before his killing, Muslim request to one of his captors, a soft-hearted man of ibn Ash-Asth, for him to to sent a message to Hussein to abandon his plan. However, the message didn't reach Hussein until he was about to reach Kufa. Upon receiving the news that Muslim was killed, Hussein discussed with his entourage what their next course of action. They decided to still proceed and marched on based on these 2 factors:
1. Since together with him were the children of Muslim and they were in rage and wanted a revenge;
2. Some of them said that Hussein was unlike Muslim. People of Kufa might react differently if they saw Al-Hussein himself.

With that, they decided to continue their journey to Kufa. Ibn Ziyad however, requested reinforcement and he got Umar ibn Saad's army who were on the way to fight the Dylamite and Hussein and his entourage were stopped and surrounded by Umar ibn Said's army at Karbala. Interestingly, no Kufians came out to help Hussein. Surrounded, Hussein negotiated with Ibn Ziyad and gave him 3 options:
1. Let him go back to Makkah since he didn't get the support of Kufians anymore;
2. Take him to Yazid and let him talk directly to him in Syiria;
2. Send him into exile in faraway land.

However, the vicious and evil ibn Ziyad rejected the options and gave ultimatum to Hussein. Either gave oath of alegiance to Yazid via his hand or prepared for a war.

Hussein, being a man of dignity, rejected that and the rest were history.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on October 05, 2017, 07:24:37 PM
A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

Big question? Not big at all...

"Sunnis" already warned Al-Hussein not to go but he insisted. So, spare your blame to somebody else...

According to you who that somebody is? "Sunnis" already warned Imam Hussain (a.s) not to go but Imam Hussain (a.s) went not heeding to their warning.

Scenario: If somebody warns me not to go to a particular place as it is dangerous and I could get killed by going there but I do not heed to his warning and go that place and get killed. Who is to be blamed???

Are you referring to the people of Madina? Well Yazeed didn't spare them either when he attacked Madina after Karbala. It would have been better for them to die with Hussein as martyrs because them holding back didn't save their lives since later on  they got killed as cowards after Karbala.

"It would have been better for them to die with Hussein".

Please keep your skewed logic from historical facts.

Nobody really know what exactly happenned in Kufah. What they knew was that the history of Kufans' treachery against Ali and warned him about it. Even if they knew, it would take them 2 weeks to reach Kufah and Hussein would have been dead by then, anyway.

By the way, it's better for you to start answering those questions posed by several brothers especially brother Farid previously. Seems like you were evading.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hani on October 05, 2017, 08:07:06 PM


Agreed. Imam Hussain (a.s) never planned on getting sacrificed nor wanted his family to be killed.




God bless you for your honesty and acceptance of truth. You will see a lot of illogical and unrealistic and emotional stories were spread by sects throughout history which have turned into "facts" in our days, upon investigation you will see that a lot of this will not stand to academic scrutiny.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 05, 2017, 11:49:17 PM
Start another bollywood thread and then we will discuss it. Please stick to the subject. Just read and listen or do something else but useful if you can't contribute positively.
😂😂 the only bollywood like script is your version of history mate. You cant even answer how karbala event saved Islam when shia themselves believe Islam has been corrupted since Abu Bakr time, long before Yazeed. Just answer the question, no need to dance around. You shia never makes sense
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on October 06, 2017, 01:07:16 AM
@iceman

You have time to wrote on the other threads but yet silent on this. I fact, this is not the first time Farid was asking. Still evading to answer a question much related to the topic, eh?

Iceman said:

Quote
When Hussein and his companions were eventually killed their bodies were refused funeral. Where did Islam go here? Their bodies were trampled by horses. What does Islam say here? The heads were cut off from the bodies and put on spears. What does Islam say about this?

And when the heads reached Yazeed's residence and were brought before him what did Yazeed say?
"Now I have avenged the killings of my ancestors in the battle of Badr". Where is Islam here?

And you talk about How Hussein saved Islam? And you say this wasn't about Islam. And you ask for references. Answer me this,  do you honestly believe that those who get in to authority and gain power they will leave things/material lying around which opposes them, that goes against them and which is damaging towards them?

You are correct in stating that these actions are un-Islamic, but you did not explain how Islam was saved by Al-Hussain's "sacrifice".

Most, if not all, political Muslim leaders today do un-Islamic things. Some are worse than others. However, Islam will continue to exist after they are six feet under. No matter how influential today, nobody can destroy Islam in the way that you are suggesting that Yazeed was going to.

The biggest crime that you have mentioned was the martyrdom of Al-Hussain. Wouldn't that mean that if he didn't "sacrifice" himself, then the crimes of Yazeed would have been much less significant?

The worst thing that you have mentioned about Yazeed, pre-Karbala, is that his mother used to dance. I'm not sure if you mentioned that he used to drink. Even though there are question marks around both accusations, I do not believe that these two things would lead to the destruction of Islam.

Oh, and Al-Hussain had nothing to do with the Battle of Badr, so please do not believe fabrications about Yazeed celebrating vengeance over his forefathers. You speak as if Ali killed a hundred people from Bani Umayyah in Badr. There were only four that were killed and only one (Al-Aas bin Sa'eed) may have been killed by Ali, while some scholars said that he was killed by Abu Yaseer Ka'ab bin Amr.



Keep the popcorn ready, guys. The bollywood is coming!
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 06, 2017, 02:39:44 PM
I'll summarize the event based on what I heard and read.

After Muawiyyah died, Yazid ascended to become the khalifah. The Governor of Madinah called Hussein to give the oath of allegiance to Yazid. However, he told the governor to give him time and instead, he packed things up and moved to Makkah together with his family.

The news that Hussein didn't give bay'ah and move to Makkah reached people of Iraq especially Kufah and they were overjoyed. They started to send letters and delegation to Hussein requesting him to come to Kufah and be their leader. The stream of letters that kept pouring in prompt Hussein to sent Muslim ibn Aqeel to Kufah to check the situation out there.

Upon his arrival, Muslim saw the overwhelming support given by Kufians including bay'ah by 12,000 of them to Hussein at the hand of Muslim. Upon getting this, Muslim promotly sent a message to Hussein request Hussein to immediately come to Kufah upon receiving the message.

In the meantime, Yazid sensed something amiss in Kufa and sent the vicious Ibn Ziyad together with 17 other people to Kufa to investigate and be the new Governor there. When he arrived, he found that the rumour was true. He also found out that Muslim was in Kufah. To cut story short, he captured Muslim and killed him and the people of Kufah essentially did nothing to stop the killing despite initial oath of allegiance given.

In Makkah, upon receiving Muslim's message, Hussein immediately made preparation for journey to Kufah together with his entourage that include his family and started his journey despite warning from sahabahs who were still alive in Hijjaz area. The day he started his journey was one day before the killing of Muslim. No way he would know that Muslim had been killed.

Back to Muslim, before his killing, Muslim request to one of his captors, a soft-hearted man of ibn Ash-Asth, for him to to sent a message to Hussein to abandon his plan. However, the message didn't reach Hussein until he was about to reach Kufa. Upon receiving the news that Muslim was killed, Hussein discussed with his entourage what their next course of action. They decided to still proceed and marched on based on these 2 factors:
1. Since together with him were the children of Muslim and they were in rage and wanted a revenge;
2. Some of them said that Hussein was unlike Muslim. People of Kufa might react differently if they saw Al-Hussein himself.


When Imam Hussain (a.s) received the news of Kufians betrayal and killing of Muslim bin Aqeel... what was now the reason for Imam Hussain (a.s) to proceed to Kufa? He was now aware of the Kufians betrayal so how could he rebel against Yazid and his forces when being fully aware he has no supporters to fight them?

Imam Hussain (a.s) asking his entourage next course of action??? His (a.s) family and close companions embarked on this life-threatening journey because of him (a.s) and now he (a.s) is asking them what to do? Really strange.

- Muslim bin Aqeel's children were in rage and wanted revenge. May I know their names and how old were they? Didn't Imam Hussain (a.s) console them and tell them it isn't sensible but foolishness to take revenge from Yazid and his forces as the time was not right because they were outnumbered and Imam Hussain (a.s) had no one to support them against Yazid and his forces.

- Some of them said that Hussein was unlike Muslim. May I know who that Some were who gave such an irrational advice? And more over its really inconceivable that Imam Hussain (a.s) accepted such a preposterous advice. Is it even reasonable to think that Kufians who did nothing to prevent the killing of Muslim bin Aqeel who was emissary of Imam Hussain (a.s) but on seeing Imam Hussain (a.s) those Kufians would suddenly turn from cowards into brave warriors? Didn't it once come to the mind of Imam Hussain (a.s) that these Kufians betrayed his father Imam Ali (a.s) and his brother Imam Hassan (a.s) and now betrayed his cousin Muslim bin Aqeel so how could they be loyal to him (a.s)? Its really unbelievable that Imam Hussain (a.s) would turn a blind eye to these obvious realities and proceed to Kufa.

With that, they decided to continue their journey to Kufa. Ibn Ziyad however, requested reinforcement and he got Umar ibn Saad's army who were on the way to fight the Dylamite and Hussein and his entourage were stopped and surrounded by Umar ibn Said's army at Karbala. Interestingly, no Kufians came out to help Hussein. Surrounded, Hussein negotiated with Ibn Ziyad and gave him 3 options:
1. Let him go back to Makkah since he didn't get the support of Kufians anymore;
2. Take him to Yazid and let him talk directly to him in Syiria;
2. Send him into exile in faraway land.

However, the vicious and evil ibn Ziyad rejected the options and gave ultimatum to Hussein. Either gave oath of alegiance to Yazid via his hand or prepared for a war.

Hussein, being a man of dignity, rejected that and the rest were history.


May I know why was it disgraceful to give oath of allegiance to Yazid on ibn Ziyad's hand? When Imam Hussain (a.s) had already made up his mind to give oath of allegiance to Yazid then what difference did it make if he gives oath of allegiance to Yazid on Yazid's hand or somebody's else hand?

Imam Hussain (a.s) rejected the offer and instead gave up his life and lives of his family members and close friends just because he didn't want to touch the hand of ibn Ziyad?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 06, 2017, 02:47:34 PM
This thread is going no where and my opening post has not been addressed. If this continues, I will have to close this one and start a new one.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 06, 2017, 03:34:39 PM
How many times would you like me to answer this? Would you like me to spell it out for you? Is it me who can't explain or you who don't want to understand? The bottom line is, be it Imamah of Ali or sacrifice of Hussein there has been and always will be constant and continuous denial and repeated rejection. You people WHY? Because......
To be continued!
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 06, 2017, 03:37:21 PM
Iceman, I asked in my first post:

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam?

Please answer this.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 06, 2017, 04:09:48 PM
Iceman, I asked in my first post:

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam?

Please answer this.

Because any slightest positive thought on Imamah of Ali or in that direction will automatically blow Saqifa straight out of the window which is the foundation of your belief/faith.

The same any slightest positive thought on sacrifice of Hussein in the name and for Islam will put a huge question mark and stain those important personalities of Madina which you so eagerly want to protect.

Now I am going to answer your question from a different angle. Lets see if this works.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 06, 2017, 04:15:25 PM
Iceman, I asked in my first post:

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam?

Please answer this.

I will explain how I believe Imam Hussain's (a.s) actions saved Islam. I am giving my personal view.

Muslim Ummah due to passage of time after the death of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) started to prefer world over Akhirah and did nothing to prevent the condition of Islam which was only on their lips and was not being practiced. Due to such a situation it was easy for Yazid to take the seat of Caliphate (People like Imam Hussain (a.s), Abdullah bin Zubayr and Abdur Rehman bin Abu Bakr disliked pledging allegiance to Yazid as their Caliph.)

Imam Hussain (a.s) and his family & close companions death had awoken Muslim Ummah who were in their deep sleep. They came to realize that something was wrong. How could Prophet's (s.a.w.w) grandson (a.s) and his family (a.s) be murdered in such a brutal way. Was the fear of GOD no more in people's heart that they considered killing Prophet's (s.a.w.w) grandson (a.s) and his family (a.s) as insignificant thing? It was this thing that made Abdullah ibn Umar angry when some Kufians came to him asking what is kaffarah of killing mosquitoes.

Any person interested in studying history of Islam would always stumble on the event/tragedy of Karbala and realize that something was wrong with Muslim Ummah at that time... He would wonder at the condition of Muslim Ummah. Were the hearts of Muslim Ummah so hardened in the lust for worldly things that they did not realize Prophet's (s.a.w.w) grandson (a.s) and his family members (a.s) were brutally killed in the lands of Karbala.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Link on October 06, 2017, 05:00:52 PM
Ijtaba, all the Prophets who succeeded Moses in Bani-Israel, tried to save Bani-Israel, but at the end Bani-Israel was not saved.  Few believed in the true religion as ought it to believed in.

Even during Dawood's time, and Sulaiman, they rebelled, despite true Prophets ruling them. They follow other chiefs and scholars, and attributed falsehood to Dawood and Sulaiman.

This was to the extent that Bani-Israel totally left their religion till Elyas called them back to the true God by making a stand down miracles against the false Prophets of Baal who could not do what Elyas did.

The dark forces never rest, and we can't expect them to.   What we can do is foremost take responsibility and enjoin the truth despite how much people hate it and even if it leaves us with hardly anyone to accompany us in our journey.

The Prophets all strove to ready people for Mohammad, but the books were hidden or corrupted, the truth hidden and so they didn't prepare people for Mohammad.

Most Messengers were rejected and weren't supported.

Imam Hussain as a navigator and Captain tried to lead the umma to safety, to justice, to the truth, to the beauty of God's face and religon, but they turned away.

The Imams (as) never were in the same position again, that is why they didn't rise with the sword.

Yes the religion remained strong in the sense the truth was apparent, the truth became manifest, the true interpretation of Quran became clear and manifest.... and to this day despite people holding on to innovations, there is a way to clarity and truth if a person comes to Quran and Ahlulbayt (as) thirsty for wisdom and humble to their words.

In this sense, unlike other times when Islam disappeared and became near impossible to find and see the truth,  in this age, with what has been left from the family of Mohammad and family of Ali, there is a way to tranquility and peace,  but it must be all found in Quran just as the successor of Sulaiman all his knowledge was from the book,  so must we refer all ahadith back to the book so that we see it in Quran and in a better more eloquent manner in Quran.

The knowledge of a person who brought Balqis' throne in a twinle of an eye, per Quran, was all from the book. The book has the remembrance, it says so itself, and so loving Mohammad is a remembrance, and Mohammad is a remembrance, and so if you come to Quran thirsty you should be able to see everything in the Shariah with the help of the Sunnah explanation of the Rasool and the Imams.


Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Ijtaba on October 06, 2017, 05:34:44 PM
Ijtaba, all the Prophets who succeeded Moses in Bani-Israel, tried to save Bani-Israel, but at the end Bani-Israel was not saved.  Few believed in the true religion as ought it to believed in.

Even during Dawood's time, and Sulaiman, they rebelled, despite true Prophets ruling them. They follow other chiefs and scholars, and attributed falsehood to Dawood and Sulaiman.

This was to the extent that Bani-Israel totally left their religion till Elyas called them back to the true God by making a stand down miracles against the false Prophets of Baal who could not do what Elyas did.

The dark forces never rest, and we can't expect them to.   What we can do is foremost take responsibility and enjoin the truth despite how much people hate it and even if it leaves us with hardly anyone to accompany us in our journey.

The Prophets all strove to ready people for Mohammad, but the books were hidden or corrupted, the truth hidden and so they didn't prepare people for Mohammad.

Most Messengers were rejected and weren't supported.

Imam Hussain as a navigator and Captain tried to lead the umma to safety, to justice, to the truth, to the beauty of God's face and religon, but they turned away.

The Imams (as) never were in the same position again, that is why they didn't rise with the sword.

Yes the religion remained strong in the sense the truth was apparent, the truth became manifest, the true interpretation of Quran became clear and manifest.... and to this day despite people holding on to innovations, there is a way to clarity and truth if a person comes to Quran and Ahlulbayt (as) thirsty for wisdom and humble to their words.

In this sense, unlike other times when Islam disappeared and became near impossible to find and see the truth,  in this age, with what has been left from the family of Mohammad and family of Ali, there is a way to tranquility and peace,  but it must be all found in Quran just as the successor of Sulaiman all his knowledge was from the book,  so must we refer all ahadith back to the book so that we see it in Quran and in a better more eloquent manner in Quran.

The knowledge of a person who brought Balqis' throne in a twinle of an eye, per Quran, was all from the book. The book has the remembrance, it says so itself, and so loving Mohammad is a remembrance, and Mohammad is a remembrance, and so if you come to Quran thirsty you should be able to see everything in the Shariah with the help of the Sunnah explanation of the Rasool and the Imams.

I agree
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 06, 2017, 06:28:34 PM
We need to ask ourselves, rather than each other, a few simple but very important questions. The first one being;
1, What exactly was the issue between Yazeed and Hussein?
Lets start of with Yazeed. He wanted Hussein to swear allegiance to him. To do his baya or give him baya.

2, Why did Yazeed want this or why was Hussein's allegiance (baya) so important and necessary for Yazeed?
Hussein was a very important person and an influential figure. And I'm sure you all know why.

Yazeed needed that legitimacy that seal of approval because he wasn't comfortable and satisfied with even the majority that he had. He was already in authority and had power.

To be continued!

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 06, 2017, 10:13:24 PM
Yazeed was appointed by his father (Moawiya) who was a companion and a relative of the Prophet (s). Moawiya governed under the first three Khalifs and built a large amount of support and reputation with in the Muslims. He also governed himself as the Muslim ruler for many years.

Therefore Moawiya had a lot of supporters and loyalists Syria who accepted and gave allegiance to Yazeed willingly. In other Muslim region and areas Moawiya campaigned for Yazeed's acceptance and allegiance. Either through bribery, threatening behaviour, violence or torture.

This is the reason why Hussein's allegiance was so important because the satisfaction and comfort wasn't there and Hussein was from the Ahle Bayth along with being a very influential and respectable figure.

3, What issue did Hussein have with Yazeed which may others didn't? Why not give allegiance to Yazeed? What was the problem?

Yazeed's character and nature. He was born, raised and grewup away from his father and the Islamic values and way of life. He didn't have a clue about Islam and had no regards for Islamic principles and rules and regulations.

He was of Christian origin but not a practicing Christian either. He was from a group, family and tribe of entertainers (music and damce). Womanising, gambling, drinking and dancing was all natural and common to Yazeed. Which he continued to do openly and commonly.

He also started to tamper and alter the Sharia in may different ways and forms. And often had public conversations and held discussions about Muhammad's (s) messenger status and raised suspicion and cast doubt over it.

To be continued.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 06, 2017, 10:22:56 PM
Yazeed wrote a letter to Waleed bin Utba informing him of the death of Mu’awiyah. In a short letter he wrote, “Now then, Ask for the oath of allegiance from Husayn, Abdullah bin Umar and Abdullah bin Zubayr, and do not give them respite until they do so.”

When Waleed read about the death of Mu’awiyah, he was alarmed and the news disturbed him, thus reluctantly he summoned Marwan bin Hakam. Marwan was the governor of Madina before Waleed, and hence when Waleed became the governor, he hated and abused him while separating himself from him for a long time until the news of the death of Mu’awiyah and the demand of alle­giance from the people reached him. This being difficult for him, he called for Marwan.

When Marwan came, Waleed read the contents of the letter to him. When Marwan heard it he recited “Verily we are Allah’s and verily unto Him shall we return”, and he prayed for blessings to be bestowed upon Mu’awiyah. When Waleed asked his advice regarding the issue, Marwan re­plied, “In my opinion, before announcing the death of Mu’awiyah, summon these persons this very moment (and ask them to swear the oath of alle­giance for Yazid). If they refuse, cut off their necks before they learn about Mu’awiyah’s death. For if they become slightly aware of this, each one of them will go away to different places and start revolting, and shall claim themselves eligible for the Caliphate.”

Waleed called for Abdullah bin ‘Amr bin Usman, who was just a lad, to summon Imam Husayn (a.s.) and Abdullah bin Zubayr to meet him. It was a time when Waleed usually did not meet anyone. Abdullah bin ‘Amr saw them seated in the Mosque and conveyed Waleed’s message to meet them. They told him to go back and that they would soon follow him
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 06, 2017, 10:41:28 PM
4, Did Hussein have a choice or he didn't? Of course he had a choice just like anybody or everbody else. He could have easily given allegiance to Yazeed and just got on with minding his own business and engage in prayers and fasting (saum and salah) like most others. But he chose not to. Why? Because it wasn't about him otherwise that is exactly what Hussein would have done. It was about Islam and the future of Islam.

Ok, Hussein could have kept the stand off but when his companions were martyred in Kufa and the support was no longer there Hussein could have backed off/down. He still had a choice and he had this choice all the way through till the very end.

5, But what kept Hussein going? Hussein didn't say, "I will not give allegiance to Yazeed", oh no he didn't. This is what Hussein said, "someone like me can never ever give allegiance to someone like Yazeed". By saying this Hussein laid down the foundation by putting down such a principal. It was a matter of choice.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 06, 2017, 10:52:27 PM
But Hussein also kept the door of negotiations and diplomacy open by putting these offers forward that he either is set free and allowed to go back to Madina since he was stopped and cornered in Karbala, or he was willing to engage in discussions with Yazeed or even was willing to be exiled. But The choice given to Hussein was either allegiance or death by fighting.

Hussein responded with another beautiful statement by saying, "I'd rather die a bloody death than live the life of a coward". People Islam and its future was at stake otherwise Hussein's approach and response would have been different. He had a choice but was willing to sacrifice everything for Islam and its future.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 07, 2017, 12:51:36 AM
Who Was Hussein and Why Does His Sacrifice Matter.

By Walaa Chahine

An arrow through the eyes. Three spears in the center of an infant’s chest. Women in chains. A final, lone solider beheaded for his stand against injustice.

This is the story of Karbala, the story you were never taught, the story your children will never learn.

History books will never teach you of a man named Hussein or a land named Karbala. You have never learned of the day 72 stood against an army of 30,000 and won. No one has ever told you the story that the great British historian Edward Gibbons said will “awaken the sympathy of the coldest reader.”

You have never truly heard of Hussein, Karbala, or Ashura, and you probably didn’t need to. No, this time in Islamic and global history never meant anything, until now.

More than 1300 years ago, Hussein (as), the grandson of the Prophet Muhammad (as), rode with his family and army to Kufa, Iraq after the people of the city pleaded with him to save them from the oppression of their caliph, Yazid I. During the journey, his caravan was intercepted and diverted to Karbala, Iraq. There, he and his family were denied access to water (in the scorching hot desert) for three days.

After a long stalemate, orders from Yazid arrived to kill Hussein and his people. Yazid’s army did just that, murdering 72 of them and taking the women and children they hadn’t killed as prisoners.

No, this isn’t a history lesson, a parable, or a cruel bedtime story. Yes, there have been battles throughout all of history that have been just as evil and dark. No, none of them have been as overlooked and ignored, as this battle.

Currently the story of Karbala means more to Islam and the world than anyone can imagine.

This is why you need to know about the Battle of Karbala -

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 07, 2017, 01:00:57 AM
Karbala and the day of Ashura (the day the massacre occurred) can teach us a lot about unity. This story is not about Good Islam versus Bad Islam. It’s not about Hussein versus Yazid. It’s not even about Right versus Wrong.

It’s truly, and utterly, about Good versus Evil. That is what united people to fight for and alongside Hussein on that battlefield, the simple story of Good versus Evil.

There is the story of a man named Hur (Arabic word for ‘free man’), who was the leader of the army of Yazid, and who decided to break free from his army and fight alongside Hussein when he realized the corrupt ways of Yazid. He was the first to be martyred.

There was John bin Huwai, an Ethiopian Christian who fought alongside Hussein in the name of good and not evil. Despite being an old man, and Hussein urging him to stay away from the battlefield, John gave his life for the stand against oppression.

Hussein, his family, and friends, all of different races, cultures, and religions, stood hand in hand against an army of cruelty. If we, today can put aside our differences and hunger for power and domination, we can easily defeat anyone who stands in the way of keeping humanity safe and inherently good.

To continue carrying Hussein’s message of unity, many of his followers use Ashura and his story to bring all kinds of people together for charity, tolerance, and goodwill.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 07, 2017, 02:29:49 AM
Iceman, I asked in my first post:

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam?

Please answer this.





Now I am going to answer your question from a different angle. Lets see if this works.

Why a different angle? Can you not just give a straight answer?
Every shia on here is like a politician avoiding giving a straight answer.

No different angles, no long essays & beating round the bush.

Its such a simple question. Can no shia answer this without waffling distractions or taking the mind on a path down boredom lost essay route?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 07, 2017, 02:41:38 AM
Don't forget that the grandson of Abu Bakr i.e Abdullah ibn Zubair also was martyred fighting yazid's tyranny.
Do the muslims beat themselves & dramatise crying out for him despite his brave fight & martyrdom?

Did he save Islam too?

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hani on October 07, 2017, 07:04:22 AM
So where's this thread at the moment? Hasan destroyed Islam then Husayn saved it? Or did Hujr bin 'Adi save Islam before Husayn when he gathered the Shia, stoned Muawiyas governor then openly disobeyed and  protested Muawiyas rule?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Zlatan Ibrahimovic on October 07, 2017, 12:44:43 PM
Shias say he willingly sacrificed himself and his family for Islam... and the latter is obviously not permissible according to the Shari'ah.

Sunni reports and the most authentic Shia report agree that Al Hussain attempted to back out of Karbala to avoid a massacre, which shows that he did not want to get him or his family killed.

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam? According to Sunnis, it was a tragedy which led to nothing positive. It was a great loss and not a victory.

Can I see those "most authentic" Shi'a reports?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 07, 2017, 02:04:56 PM
Iceman, I asked in my first post:

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam?

Please answer this.





Now I am going to answer your question from a different angle. Lets see if this works.

Why a different angle? Can you not just give a straight answer?
Every shia on here is like a politician avoiding giving a straight answer.

No different angles, no long essays & beating round the bush.

Its such a simple question. Can no shia answer this without waffling distractions or taking the mind on a path down boredom lost essay route?

How many times do I have to repeat this. The question has been answered and many times over on others sites and places. Now, it's not that you can't understand it, it's actually you don't want to understand it. You already have a mindset and there's nothing I can do about that. It's just a few of you.

This is not a huge event between top Shia and Suni scholars discussing and debating while it is being broadcasted globally. We only have a handful of individuals here jumping up and down under the Ahle Sunah umbrella with anti Shia mentality to begin with, who can't discuss their own belief/faith let alone prove it.

For the intelligent and intellectual sense and logic and reality and facts are more than enough to know and understand the truth and want went on.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 07, 2017, 02:12:36 PM
For the intelligent and intellectual sense and logic and reality and facts are more than enough to know and understand the truth and want went on.
well that excludes you then, because logic and facts are so further from any of shia claims. Since you zombies believed Islam has been changed since 1st caliph which mean
-1st imam let it happened for decades
-2nd imam helped religion being destroyed by giving up power & legitimised muawiya's rule
- 3rd imam also did nothing and legitimised that so called unislamic regime
- all of a sudden 3rd imam acted "to save Islam"

So 1st, 2nd did not & 3rd also did not then only in the end decided "to save Islam"

A bunch of baloney bollywood story
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: MuslimK on October 07, 2017, 02:37:25 PM
But Hussein also kept the door of negotiations and diplomacy open by putting these offers forward that he either is set free and allowed to go back to Madina since he was stopped and cornered in Karbala, or he was willing to engage in discussions with Yazeed or even was willing to be exiled. But The choice given to Hussein was either allegiance or death by fighting.

Hussein responded with another beautiful statement by saying, "I'd rather die a bloody death than live the life of a coward". People Islam and its future was at stake otherwise Hussein's approach and response would have been different. He had a choice but was willing to sacrifice everything for Islam and its future.

So you admit that Hussain wanted to return back when he learned the reality on the ground.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 07, 2017, 02:52:10 PM
Iceman

For the intelligent and intellectual sense and logic and reality and facts are more than enough to know and understand the truth and want went on.
[/quote]

Intelligence and logic.......

What Islam did imam Hussein ra save?

Shiites answer.......

1st imam didn't fight (for sake of Islam)
2nd imam didn't fight (for sake of Islam)
3rd imam he fought (for the sake of Islam) and took His ra's family too with women and kids

You call that  intelligence and logic?? Do you fight with your women and kids beside you? Is this the Islam He ra was saving?

Intelligence and logic............ Hussein ra saved Islam.
What did he save?...........he fought yazeed......intelligence and logic.

That's as far as is explained by the ahle tashayyu at the moment.

Not very intelligent or logical so far.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 07, 2017, 03:20:57 PM
For the intelligent and intellectual sense and logic and reality and facts are more than enough to know and understand the truth and want went on.
well that excludes you then, because logic and facts are so further from any of shia claims. Since you zombies believed Islam has been changed since 1st caliph which mean
-1st imam let it happened for decades
-2nd imam helped religion being destroyed by giving up power & legitimised muawiya's rule
- 3rd imam also did nothing and legitimised that so called unislamic regime
- all of a sudden 3rd imam acted "to save Islam"

So 1st, 2nd did not & 3rd also did not then only in the end decided "to save Islam"

A bunch of baloney bollywood story

Us zombies. ..LOL, you really need to see a doctor. The first three Imams their response and dealing was different. Why? Because the circumstances, situation and conditions where absolutely different and so were the individuals and characters they were up against were also very different. Yo know this as well as I do. You're just playing around by raising suspicion and casting doubt on the based on the anti shia fever and mentality you are suffering from.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 07, 2017, 03:34:09 PM
For the intelligent and intellectual sense and logic and reality and facts are more than enough to know and understand the truth and want went on.
well that excludes you then, because logic and facts are so further from any of shia claims. Since you zombies believed Islam has been changed since 1st caliph which mean
-1st imam let it happened for decades
-2nd imam helped religion being destroyed by giving up power & legitimised muawiya's rule
- 3rd imam also did nothing and legitimised that so called unislamic regime
- all of a sudden 3rd imam acted "to save Islam"

So 1st, 2nd did not & 3rd also did not then only in the end decided "to save Islam"

A bunch of baloney bollywood story

Us zombies. ..LOL, you really need to see a doctor. The first three Imams their response and dealing was different. Why? Because the circumstances, situation and conditions where absolutely different and so were the individuals and characters they were up against were also very different. Yo know this as well as I do. You're just playing around by raising suspicion and casting doubt on the based on the anti shia fever and mentality you are suffering from.

Yes the circumstances were different.
Ali ACCEPTED the first 3 caliphs, just as Hasan & Husayn eventually ACCEPTED Muawiya.
Like sunni's do.

Husayn however rejected Yazid as he was not fit to rule. Sunni's agree on this too as Yazid was a drunkard etc.

But the shia story...insane...
How was fighting a losing battle against Yazid the right circumstances but fighting the first 3 caliphs & Muawiya not the right circumstances?

It would mean Husayn made a miscalculated decision as the result does not fit with the criteria of being the correct circumstances according your above logic.

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 07, 2017, 03:41:09 PM
For the intelligent and intellectual sense and logic and reality and facts are more than enough to know and understand the truth and want went on.
well that excludes you then, because logic and facts are so further from any of shia claims. Since you zombies believed Islam has been changed since 1st caliph which mean
-1st imam let it happened for decades
-2nd imam helped religion being destroyed by giving up power & legitimised muawiya's rule
- 3rd imam also did nothing and legitimised that so called unislamic regime
- all of a sudden 3rd imam acted "to save Islam"

So 1st, 2nd did not & 3rd also did not then only in the end decided "to save Islam"

A bunch of baloney bollywood story

Us zombies. ..LOL, you really need to see a doctor. The first three Imams their response and dealing was different. Why? Because the circumstances, situation and conditions where absolutely different and so were the individuals and characters they were up against were also very different. Yo know this as well as I do. You're just playing around by raising suspicion and casting doubt on the based on the anti shia fever and mentality you are suffering from.

Yes the circumstances were different.
Ali ACCEPTED the first 3 caliphs, just as Hasan & Husayn eventually ACCEPTED Muawiya.
Like sunni's do.

Husayn however rejected Yazid as he was not fit to rule. Sunni's agree on this too as Yazid was a drunkard etc.

But the shia story...insane...
How was fighting a losing battle against Yazid the right circumstances but fighting the first 3 caliphs & Muawiya not the right circumstances?

You're mixing things up here fact with fiction, reality with story and truth with false. Ali did not accept the first three Khalifs. The situation after the Prophet's (s) death was about governance, about leading the Muslim Ummah. It wasn't about Islam or the message.

I will continue this but please lets keep it civilised and with in manners.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: zaid_ibn_ali on October 07, 2017, 04:00:53 PM
Quote from: iceman

You're mixing things up here fact with fiction, reality with story and truth with false. Ali did not accept the first three Khalifs.


Sunni's believe he did accept the 3 caliphs, shia don't.
Ali was a brave fighter but he didn't fight them. That we can all agree on.



Quote from: iceman
The situation after the Prophet's (s) death was about governance, about leading the Muslim Ummah. It wasn't about Islam or the message.


Are you sunni now? As that is what ahlus sunnah believe, that it was a political scenario of leadership of the ummah & not anything about the message.

Thanks for accepting the sunni view & not the shia view that it was all about accepting or rejecting Islam's message of Wilayah.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Mythbuster1 on October 07, 2017, 04:05:14 PM

[/quote]

Us zombies. ..LOL, you really need to see a doctor. The first three Imams their response and dealing was different. Why? Because the circumstances, situation and conditions where absolutely different and so were the individuals and characters they were up against were also very different. Yo know this as well as I do. You're just playing around by raising suspicion and casting doubt on the based on the anti shia fever and mentality you are suffering from.
[/quote]

Lol.......and this from a guy who has intelligence and logical sense😂😂👍
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: iceman on October 07, 2017, 07:45:15 PM
If Ali had accepted the first two Khalifs then why wasn't Ali the third Khalif? What made Ali let the opportunity of becoming the third Khalif slip away? He refused the condition of accepting and governing under the condition and according to Seerath e Shaykhain.

This is more than enough to know that Ali never accepted them as Khalifa but allowed them to get on with it and where ever and when ever the welfare and benefit of Islam and the Muslims was at stake Ali stepped forward and intervened.

The reign of the first three Khalifs was helped and aided by  Imam Ali and his followers where ever and when ever needed. The opposition to the first three never used violence or threatening behaviour to achieve their goals.

Hassan didn't ask for and do a peace treaty with Moawiya. It was the other way around. Hassan put down circumstances which Moawiya accepted and Hassan proceeded keeping the welfare and benefit of the Muslims at hand. Going in to and accepting a peace treaty doesn't mean you accept and believe in the person or party you are dealing with.

The Prophet (s) also went in to a peace treaty the peace treaty of Hudaibiya. Now what does this treaty mean? The Prophet (s) believed in and considered the others to be right and fine?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Abu Muhammad on October 08, 2017, 01:38:08 AM
The Prophet (s) also went in to a peace treaty the peace treaty of Hudaibiya. Now what does this treaty mean? The Prophet (s) believed in and considered the others to be right and fine?

Hudaibiyyah is never a good analogy, bro. Did Rasulullah (saw) surrender his leadership to the Quraisy?
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 08, 2017, 06:21:09 AM
Us zombies. ..LOL, you really need to see a doctor. The first three Imams their response and dealing was different. Why? Because the circumstances, situation and conditions where absolutely different and so were the individuals and characters they were up against were also very different. Yo know this as well as I do. You're just playing around by raising suspicion and casting doubt on the based on the anti shia fever and mentality you are suffering from.
whats the difference? You zombies believe they were kuffar, no need to dance around. So its Islamic to let a kafir lead the ummah? Its islamic to gave up power to a kafir? Thats your bollywood script, we dont believe that one bit. Youre the one who has to dance around to try to make sense of that mess of your fake history
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Link on October 08, 2017, 06:29:35 AM
Atheists can say God surrendered his power and authority to evil people. In a way they are right. He has from one angle let them deceive people and rule by false means and deceptions. That is why believers always in the past would await the "days of God", because it's always been conveyed, that God takes turns, he let's darkness and the night rule, but only to bring back the day.

If humans were grateful for the representatives and rulers appointed by God, and followed the guides, we would not be ruled by deceivers.

But he warned humanity time and time again, if they are ungrateful and rebel against him and his authority,  than they will perish and those who oppress others will be destroyed, and those who think they are super power on earth will always be destroyed because they forgot the true super power, God who has not left humans to themselves and has destroyed many nations and powers in the past.

Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 08, 2017, 06:40:49 AM
Atheists can say God surrendered his power and authority to evil people. In a way they are right.
well thats because they are atheist. So next time you want to blame Allah too when you commit a sin? Your fake history is a mess, how can an infallible who suppose to uphold Islamic values gave up power and legitimise a person who you believe was against Islam. You zombie always doesnt make sense.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Link on October 08, 2017, 06:52:09 AM
Atheists can say God surrendered his power and authority to evil people. In a way they are right.
well thats because they are atheist. So next time you want to blame Allah too when you commit a sin? Your fake history is a mess, how can an infallible who suppose to uphold Islamic values gave up power and legitimise a person who you believe was against Islam. You zombie always doesnt make sense.

Imams are just instruments of God. Even Israelites who were disobeying Moses knew Moses could by himself take on everyone in a country with God's permission and help.....

But Moses and Aaron didn't, but rather separated from the people and left them for 40 years.

The question is legitimate, when a person given knowledge from God's book can bring a whole throne in a twinkle of an eye, yes it's true Ali could have killed every disbeliever that faced him.

He could have resisted and destroyed waves and waves of people, as well, the believers with him could have been helped by Angels as well and they could have come out victorious like Talut and believers who followed him came out victorious.

Why did God let Yahya get killed when he took leadership and was of the successors of Moses who God protected and provided help against Pharah and his army?

These are legitimate questions.

Why did any Prophets from Bani-Israel get killed, was God powerless to protect them?

Why weren't they all victorious with whatever numbers they had like Talut and his followers?

You see, you can't just plug your analysis of what God and his representatives should do.   


When you have immense power that you can split the moon and yet the earth remains and everything remains intact, this is not a human that you can truly over power.

If they give up power, they give up due to wisdom. And if they take it, it's by God's will and permission.

Their lives and deaths are for God.

We can try to understand what they do, but at the end, when Yusuf framed his brothers, it was not that framing is halal for us to do or anything, and there is a lot of actions we cannot easily understand.

But fighting is not always best, and power is not as important as people make it out to be.

If it was as important as people make it out to be, be sure God would never have ever let a Pharaoh rule or oppressor rule.

It's an evil and a heavy trial, but life goes on, and wisdom still can be found, and the true Kings continue to be true kings and rule humanity because in all that, God is the King.






Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 08, 2017, 07:08:58 AM
so an infallible who was suppose to be our religious guide, gave up authority & power so we would be led by a leader whom you believe was governing unislamically & was against Islam. Dont forget to take your mental pill link.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Link on October 08, 2017, 07:18:32 AM
so an infallible who was suppose to be our religious guide, gave up authority & power so we would be led by a leader whom you believe was governing unislamically & was against Islam. Dont forget to take your mental pill link.

so an infallible who was suppose to be our religious guide, gave up authority & power so we would be led by a leader whom you believe was governing unislamically & was against Islam. Dont forget to take your mental pill link.

I am telling you reality. You are arguing exactly what Illuminati will be arguing, that God is not powerless, and if he wanted to stop them from being in a position of power, he could have, but has allowed them to rule behind the scenes and finally bring humanity to a stage which they will argue was their benevolent purpose all along.

All I am saying is Quran has answered all this, and explained "days of God" and that we await when God will manifest his proof, and indeed there is day of rising coming,  but what situation humanity will be in,  will they be receptive and most follow the truth or will most perish like destroyed nations were destroyed, we don't know, that is not destined, neither is it's time destined, the course humanity takes is not destined.

All we can wish and hope for, is the coming forth is an easy affair of humanity, and that the result of oppressors even is that they are forgiven like brothers of Yusuf were forgiven, but the warnings that what befell past oppressors and nations is a heavy warning....

So far we are on a bad track. Things don't look good.

Let us change the destiny Satan and his forces are pushing towards, and be part of God's plan.

Victory is promised, but we want the best form of victory, one that is easy for most humans, and very little consequence and very little resistance to the truth.

Humans forging their destiny is a gift from God as is helping authorities and guiding kings.
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Hadrami on October 08, 2017, 07:34:29 AM
illuminati? You sure is mental 😁😁
Title: Re: Sacrifice of Al Hussain?
Post by: Farid on October 08, 2017, 07:42:26 PM
Thread is closed due to massive amounts of irrelevant content. Stick to the topic guys. If you have relevant material from this topic that deserves to be looked into, please share it in the new thread.

http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/why-did-al-hussain-sacrifice-himself