Sacrifice of Al Hussain?

[Abu Muhammad]

Why? Its simple, because he didnt know its gonna end up that way, that his so called shia would abandoned him. The reason why its difficult for you to swallow that is because youve been fed lies by shia scholars that he knew whats gonna happen.

Imam Hussain (a.s) was really surprised when he saw his so called shias (i.e. Kufians) abandoning him. He saw these Kufians abandoning his father Imam Ali (a.s) and his brother Imam Hassan (a.s) and yet trusted them so much that he accepted their call and went to them. But who would have known these known disloyal, cowards, betrayers would betray Imam Hussain (a.s).

Even I am shocked how could these known betrayers and disloyal people leave Imam Hussain (a.s) alone against Syrian army?

A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

Big question? Not big at all...

"Sunnis" already warned Al-Hussein not to go but he insisted. So, spare your blame to somebody else...

[Abu Muhammad]

A question we need to ask ourselves is that why did Yazeed replace his governer in Kufa with ibne Ziyaad. Because ibne Ziyaad was very well known for his brutal natural and ruthless stance. He was known for his heavy handed tactics and would be able to crush the uprising by controlling the Kufans.

And this is exactly what he did through extreme means of violence and threatening behaviour. The Kufans are accused of betrayal,  that is not true. Extreme violence was used to kerb and control the Kufans. They were persecuted. They were tortured and murdered.

A simple question you need to ask yourself is that Ibn Ziyad came with only 17 men while those Kufans giving bay'ah to Al-Hussein was 12,000. That numbers alone shows you that Ibn Ziyad could have been easily crushed by them, if they really wanted to. But their inability to do that showed the kind of people the Kufans were and put your argument directly down the drain.

Even with Umar Ibn Sa'ad's forces, they only numbered 4,000, still lower than 12,000. Moreover, they came after the Ibn Ziyad came to Kufah.

What a pathetic argument!

These Kufans were Muslims just like you and just like those who believed in Khilafath. They weren't Imamiya. The Shias were those who stood by Hussein and perished and those who were persecuted by ibne Ziyad and those who were arrested and locked up or under house arrest like Mukhtar Sakafi etc.

Haha… suddenly those who gave the bay'ah to Al-Hussein as well as sent hundreds of letters requesting him to come to Kufah were not imamis nor Shi'i but a people just like us... LOL… That's another pathetic argument…

[Ijtaba]

A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

You should direct this question to Ahlul Sunnah brothers & sisters on this forum because it is concerning them and they can answer it better because I cannot answer on their behalf.

[Ijtaba]

A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

Big question? Not big at all...

"Sunnis" already warned Al-Hussein not to go but he insisted. So, spare your blame to somebody else...

According to you who that somebody is? "Sunnis" already warned Imam Hussain (a.s) not to go but Imam Hussain (a.s) went not heeding to their warning.

Scenario: If somebody warns me not to go to a particular place as it is dangerous and I could get killed by going there but I do not heed to his warning and go that place and get killed. Who is to be blamed???

[iceman]

A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

Big question? Not big at all...

"Sunnis" already warned Al-Hussein not to go but he insisted. So, spare your blame to somebody else...

According to you who that somebody is? "Sunnis" already warned Imam Hussain (a.s) not to go but Imam Hussain (a.s) went not heeding to their warning.

Scenario: If somebody warns me not to go to a particular place as it is dangerous and I could get killed by going there but I do not heed to his warning and go that place and get killed. Who is to be blamed???

Are you referring to the people of Madina? Well Yazeed didn't spare them either when he attacked Madina after Karbala. It would have been better for them to die with Hussein as martyrs because them holding back didn't save their lives since later on  they got killed as cowards after Karbala.

[Abu Muhammad]

According to you who that somebody is? "Sunnis" already warned Imam Hussain (a.s) not to go but Imam Hussain (a.s) went not heeding to their warning.

Scenario: If somebody warns me not to go to a particular place as it is dangerous and I could get killed by going there but I do not heed to his warning and go that place and get killed. Who is to be blamed???

I'll summarize the event based on what I heard and read.

After Muawiyyah died, Yazid ascended to become the khalifah. The Governor of Madinah called Hussein to give the oath of allegiance to Yazid. However, he told the governor to give him time and instead, he packed things up and moved to Makkah together with his family.

The news that Hussein didn't give bay'ah and move to Makkah reached people of Iraq especially Kufah and they were overjoyed. They started to send letters and delegation to Hussein requesting him to come to Kufah and be their leader. The stream of letters that kept pouring in prompt Hussein to sent Muslim ibn Aqeel to Kufah to check the situation out there.

Upon his arrival, Muslim saw the overwhelming support given by Kufians including bay'ah by 12,000 of them to Hussein at the hand of Muslim. Upon getting this, Muslim promotly sent a message to Hussein request Hussein to immediately come to Kufah upon receiving the message.

In the meantime, Yazid sensed something amiss in Kufa and sent the vicious Ibn Ziyad together with 17 other people to Kufa to investigate and be the new Governor there. When he arrived, he found that the rumour was true. He also found out that Muslim was in Kufah. To cut story short, he captured Muslim and killed him and the people of Kufah essentially did nothing to stop the killing despite initial oath of allegiance given.

In Makkah, upon receiving Muslim's message, Hussein immediately made preparation for journey to Kufah together with his entourage that include his family and started his journey despite warning from sahabahs who were still alive in Hijjaz area. The day he started his journey was one day before the killing of Muslim. No way he would know that Muslim had been killed.

Back to Muslim, before his killing, Muslim request to one of his captors, a soft-hearted man of ibn Ash-Asth, for him to to sent a message to Hussein to abandon his plan. However, the message didn't reach Hussein until he was about to reach Kufa. Upon receiving the news that Muslim was killed, Hussein discussed with his entourage what their next course of action. They decided to still proceed and marched on based on these 2 factors:
1. Since together with him were the children of Muslim and they were in rage and wanted a revenge;
2. Some of them said that Hussein was unlike Muslim. People of Kufa might react differently if they saw Al-Hussein himself.

With that, they decided to continue their journey to Kufa. Ibn Ziyad however, requested reinforcement and he got Umar ibn Saad's army who were on the way to fight the Dylamite and Hussein and his entourage were stopped and surrounded by Umar ibn Said's army at Karbala. Interestingly, no Kufians came out to help Hussein. Surrounded, Hussein negotiated with Ibn Ziyad and gave him 3 options:
1. Let him go back to Makkah since he didn't get the support of Kufians anymore;
2. Take him to Yazid and let him talk directly to him in Syiria;
2. Send him into exile in faraway land.

However, the vicious and evil ibn Ziyad rejected the options and gave ultimatum to Hussein. Either gave oath of alegiance to Yazid via his hand or prepared for a war.

Hussein, being a man of dignity, rejected that and the rest were history.

[Abu Muhammad]

A big question you refrain from answering/addressing, where were the Sunis when all this was going on? We hear a lot about Shias but what exactly were the Sunis doing?

Big question? Not big at all...

"Sunnis" already warned Al-Hussein not to go but he insisted. So, spare your blame to somebody else...

According to you who that somebody is? "Sunnis" already warned Imam Hussain (a.s) not to go but Imam Hussain (a.s) went not heeding to their warning.

Scenario: If somebody warns me not to go to a particular place as it is dangerous and I could get killed by going there but I do not heed to his warning and go that place and get killed. Who is to be blamed???

Are you referring to the people of Madina? Well Yazeed didn't spare them either when he attacked Madina after Karbala. It would have been better for them to die with Hussein as martyrs because them holding back didn't save their lives since later on  they got killed as cowards after Karbala.

"It would have been better for them to die with Hussein".

Please keep your skewed logic from historical facts.

Nobody really know what exactly happenned in Kufah. What they knew was that the history of Kufans' treachery against Ali and warned him about it. Even if they knew, it would take them 2 weeks to reach Kufah and Hussein would have been dead by then, anyway.

By the way, it's better for you to start answering those questions posed by several brothers especially brother Farid previously. Seems like you were evading.

[Hani]

Agreed. Imam Hussain (a.s) never planned on getting sacrificed nor wanted his family to be killed.

God bless you for your honesty and acceptance of truth. You will see a lot of illogical and unrealistic and emotional stories were spread by sects throughout history which have turned into "facts" in our days, upon investigation you will see that a lot of this will not stand to academic scrutiny.

[Hadrami]

Start another bollywood thread and then we will discuss it. Please stick to the subject. Just read and listen or do something else but useful if you can't contribute positively.

😂😂 the only bollywood like script is your version of history mate. You cant even answer how karbala event saved Islam when shia themselves believe Islam has been corrupted since Abu Bakr time, long before Yazeed. Just answer the question, no need to dance around. You shia never makes sense

[Abu Muhammad]

@iceman

You have time to wrote on the other threads but yet silent on this. I fact, this is not the first time Farid was asking. Still evading to answer a question much related to the topic, eh?

Iceman said:

When Hussein and his companions were eventually killed their bodies were refused funeral. Where did Islam go here? Their bodies were trampled by horses. What does Islam say here? The heads were cut off from the bodies and put on spears. What does Islam say about this?

And when the heads reached Yazeed's residence and were brought before him what did Yazeed say?
"Now I have avenged the killings of my ancestors in the battle of Badr". Where is Islam here?

And you talk about How Hussein saved Islam? And you say this wasn't about Islam. And you ask for references. Answer me this,  do you honestly believe that those who get in to authority and gain power they will leave things/material lying around which opposes them, that goes against them and which is damaging towards them?

You are correct in stating that these actions are un-Islamic, but you did not explain how Islam was saved by Al-Hussain's "sacrifice".

Most, if not all, political Muslim leaders today do un-Islamic things. Some are worse than others. However, Islam will continue to exist after they are six feet under. No matter how influential today, nobody can destroy Islam in the way that you are suggesting that Yazeed was going to.

The biggest crime that you have mentioned was the martyrdom of Al-Hussain. Wouldn't that mean that if he didn't "sacrifice" himself, then the crimes of Yazeed would have been much less significant?

The worst thing that you have mentioned about Yazeed, pre-Karbala, is that his mother used to dance. I'm not sure if you mentioned that he used to drink. Even though there are question marks around both accusations, I do not believe that these two things would lead to the destruction of Islam.

Oh, and Al-Hussain had nothing to do with the Battle of Badr, so please do not believe fabrications about Yazeed celebrating vengeance over his forefathers. You speak as if Ali killed a hundred people from Bani Umayyah in Badr. There were only four that were killed and only one (Al-Aas bin Sa'eed) may have been killed by Ali, while some scholars said that he was killed by Abu Yaseer Ka'ab bin Amr.

Keep the popcorn ready, guys. The bollywood is coming!

[Ijtaba]

I'll summarize the event based on what I heard and read.

After Muawiyyah died, Yazid ascended to become the khalifah. The Governor of Madinah called Hussein to give the oath of allegiance to Yazid. However, he told the governor to give him time and instead, he packed things up and moved to Makkah together with his family.

The news that Hussein didn't give bay'ah and move to Makkah reached people of Iraq especially Kufah and they were overjoyed. They started to send letters and delegation to Hussein requesting him to come to Kufah and be their leader. The stream of letters that kept pouring in prompt Hussein to sent Muslim ibn Aqeel to Kufah to check the situation out there.

Upon his arrival, Muslim saw the overwhelming support given by Kufians including bay'ah by 12,000 of them to Hussein at the hand of Muslim. Upon getting this, Muslim promotly sent a message to Hussein request Hussein to immediately come to Kufah upon receiving the message.

In the meantime, Yazid sensed something amiss in Kufa and sent the vicious Ibn Ziyad together with 17 other people to Kufa to investigate and be the new Governor there. When he arrived, he found that the rumour was true. He also found out that Muslim was in Kufah. To cut story short, he captured Muslim and killed him and the people of Kufah essentially did nothing to stop the killing despite initial oath of allegiance given.

In Makkah, upon receiving Muslim's message, Hussein immediately made preparation for journey to Kufah together with his entourage that include his family and started his journey despite warning from sahabahs who were still alive in Hijjaz area. The day he started his journey was one day before the killing of Muslim. No way he would know that Muslim had been killed.

Back to Muslim, before his killing, Muslim request to one of his captors, a soft-hearted man of ibn Ash-Asth, for him to to sent a message to Hussein to abandon his plan. However, the message didn't reach Hussein until he was about to reach Kufa. Upon receiving the news that Muslim was killed, Hussein discussed with his entourage what their next course of action. They decided to still proceed and marched on based on these 2 factors:
1. Since together with him were the children of Muslim and they were in rage and wanted a revenge;
2. Some of them said that Hussein was unlike Muslim. People of Kufa might react differently if they saw Al-Hussein himself.

When Imam Hussain (a.s) received the news of Kufians betrayal and killing of Muslim bin Aqeel... what was now the reason for Imam Hussain (a.s) to proceed to Kufa? He was now aware of the Kufians betrayal so how could he rebel against Yazid and his forces when being fully aware he has no supporters to fight them?

Imam Hussain (a.s) asking his entourage next course of action??? His (a.s) family and close companions embarked on this life-threatening journey because of him (a.s) and now he (a.s) is asking them what to do? Really strange.

- Muslim bin Aqeel's children were in rage and wanted revenge. May I know their names and how old were they? Didn't Imam Hussain (a.s) console them and tell them it isn't sensible but foolishness to take revenge from Yazid and his forces as the time was not right because they were outnumbered and Imam Hussain (a.s) had no one to support them against Yazid and his forces.

- Some of them said that Hussein was unlike Muslim. May I know who that Some were who gave such an irrational advice? And more over its really inconceivable that Imam Hussain (a.s) accepted such a preposterous advice. Is it even reasonable to think that Kufians who did nothing to prevent the killing of Muslim bin Aqeel who was emissary of Imam Hussain (a.s) but on seeing Imam Hussain (a.s) those Kufians would suddenly turn from cowards into brave warriors? Didn't it once come to the mind of Imam Hussain (a.s) that these Kufians betrayed his father Imam Ali (a.s) and his brother Imam Hassan (a.s) and now betrayed his cousin Muslim bin Aqeel so how could they be loyal to him (a.s)? Its really unbelievable that Imam Hussain (a.s) would turn a blind eye to these obvious realities and proceed to Kufa.

With that, they decided to continue their journey to Kufa. Ibn Ziyad however, requested reinforcement and he got Umar ibn Saad's army who were on the way to fight the Dylamite and Hussein and his entourage were stopped and surrounded by Umar ibn Said's army at Karbala. Interestingly, no Kufians came out to help Hussein. Surrounded, Hussein negotiated with Ibn Ziyad and gave him 3 options:
1. Let him go back to Makkah since he didn't get the support of Kufians anymore;
2. Take him to Yazid and let him talk directly to him in Syiria;
2. Send him into exile in faraway land.

However, the vicious and evil ibn Ziyad rejected the options and gave ultimatum to Hussein. Either gave oath of alegiance to Yazid via his hand or prepared for a war.

Hussein, being a man of dignity, rejected that and the rest were history.

May I know why was it disgraceful to give oath of allegiance to Yazid on ibn Ziyad's hand? When Imam Hussain (a.s) had already made up his mind to give oath of allegiance to Yazid then what difference did it make if he gives oath of allegiance to Yazid on Yazid's hand or somebody's else hand?

Imam Hussain (a.s) rejected the offer and instead gave up his life and lives of his family members and close friends just because he didn't want to touch the hand of ibn Ziyad?

[Farid]

This thread is going no where and my opening post has not been addressed. If this continues, I will have to close this one and start a new one.

[iceman]

How many times would you like me to answer this? Would you like me to spell it out for you? Is it me who can't explain or you who don't want to understand? The bottom line is, be it Imamah of Ali or sacrifice of Hussein there has been and always will be constant and continuous denial and repeated rejection. You people WHY? Because......
To be continued!

[Farid]

Iceman, I asked in my first post:

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam?

Please answer this.

[iceman]

Iceman, I asked in my first post:

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam?

Please answer this.

Because any slightest positive thought on Imamah of Ali or in that direction will automatically blow Saqifa straight out of the window which is the foundation of your belief/faith.

The same any slightest positive thought on sacrifice of Hussein in the name and for Islam will put a huge question mark and stain those important personalities of Madina which you so eagerly want to protect.

Now I am going to answer your question from a different angle. Lets see if this works.

[Ijtaba]

Iceman, I asked in my first post:

Are there any Shias here that can explain how Al Hussain's actions saved Islam?

Please answer this.

I will explain how I believe Imam Hussain's (a.s) actions saved Islam. I am giving my personal view.

Muslim Ummah due to passage of time after the death of Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) started to prefer world over Akhirah and did nothing to prevent the condition of Islam which was only on their lips and was not being practiced. Due to such a situation it was easy for Yazid to take the seat of Caliphate (People like Imam Hussain (a.s), Abdullah bin Zubayr and Abdur Rehman bin Abu Bakr disliked pledging allegiance to Yazid as their Caliph.)

Imam Hussain (a.s) and his family & close companions death had awoken Muslim Ummah who were in their deep sleep. They came to realize that something was wrong. How could Prophet's (s.a.w.w) grandson (a.s) and his family (a.s) be murdered in such a brutal way. Was the fear of GOD no more in people's heart that they considered killing Prophet's (s.a.w.w) grandson (a.s) and his family (a.s) as insignificant thing? It was this thing that made Abdullah ibn Umar angry when some Kufians came to him asking what is kaffarah of killing mosquitoes.

Any person interested in studying history of Islam would always stumble on the event/tragedy of Karbala and realize that something was wrong with Muslim Ummah at that time... He would wonder at the condition of Muslim Ummah. Were the hearts of Muslim Ummah so hardened in the lust for worldly things that they did not realize Prophet's (s.a.w.w) grandson (a.s) and his family members (a.s) were brutally killed in the lands of Karbala.

[Link]

Ijtaba, all the Prophets who succeeded Moses in Bani-Israel, tried to save Bani-Israel, but at the end Bani-Israel was not saved.  Few believed in the true religion as ought it to believed in.

Even during Dawood's time, and Sulaiman, they rebelled, despite true Prophets ruling them. They follow other chiefs and scholars, and attributed falsehood to Dawood and Sulaiman.

This was to the extent that Bani-Israel totally left their religion till Elyas called them back to the true God by making a stand down miracles against the false Prophets of Baal who could not do what Elyas did.

The dark forces never rest, and we can't expect them to.   What we can do is foremost take responsibility and enjoin the truth despite how much people hate it and even if it leaves us with hardly anyone to accompany us in our journey.

The Prophets all strove to ready people for Mohammad, but the books were hidden or corrupted, the truth hidden and so they didn't prepare people for Mohammad.

Most Messengers were rejected and weren't supported.

Imam Hussain as a navigator and Captain tried to lead the umma to safety, to justice, to the truth, to the beauty of God's face and religon, but they turned away.

The Imams (as) never were in the same position again, that is why they didn't rise with the sword.

Yes the religion remained strong in the sense the truth was apparent, the truth became manifest, the true interpretation of Quran became clear and manifest.... and to this day despite people holding on to innovations, there is a way to clarity and truth if a person comes to Quran and Ahlulbayt (as) thirsty for wisdom and humble to their words.

In this sense, unlike other times when Islam disappeared and became near impossible to find and see the truth,  in this age, with what has been left from the family of Mohammad and family of Ali, there is a way to tranquility and peace,  but it must be all found in Quran just as the successor of Sulaiman all his knowledge was from the book,  so must we refer all ahadith back to the book so that we see it in Quran and in a better more eloquent manner in Quran.

The knowledge of a person who brought Balqis' throne in a twinle of an eye, per Quran, was all from the book. The book has the remembrance, it says so itself, and so loving Mohammad is a remembrance, and Mohammad is a remembrance, and so if you come to Quran thirsty you should be able to see everything in the Shariah with the help of the Sunnah explanation of the Rasool and the Imams.

[Ijtaba]

Ijtaba, all the Prophets who succeeded Moses in Bani-Israel, tried to save Bani-Israel, but at the end Bani-Israel was not saved.  Few believed in the true religion as ought it to believed in.

Even during Dawood's time, and Sulaiman, they rebelled, despite true Prophets ruling them. They follow other chiefs and scholars, and attributed falsehood to Dawood and Sulaiman.

This was to the extent that Bani-Israel totally left their religion till Elyas called them back to the true God by making a stand down miracles against the false Prophets of Baal who could not do what Elyas did.

The dark forces never rest, and we can't expect them to.   What we can do is foremost take responsibility and enjoin the truth despite how much people hate it and even if it leaves us with hardly anyone to accompany us in our journey.

The Prophets all strove to ready people for Mohammad, but the books were hidden or corrupted, the truth hidden and so they didn't prepare people for Mohammad.

Most Messengers were rejected and weren't supported.

Imam Hussain as a navigator and Captain tried to lead the umma to safety, to justice, to the truth, to the beauty of God's face and religon, but they turned away.

The Imams (as) never were in the same position again, that is why they didn't rise with the sword.

Yes the religion remained strong in the sense the truth was apparent, the truth became manifest, the true interpretation of Quran became clear and manifest.... and to this day despite people holding on to innovations, there is a way to clarity and truth if a person comes to Quran and Ahlulbayt (as) thirsty for wisdom and humble to their words.

In this sense, unlike other times when Islam disappeared and became near impossible to find and see the truth,  in this age, with what has been left from the family of Mohammad and family of Ali, there is a way to tranquility and peace,  but it must be all found in Quran just as the successor of Sulaiman all his knowledge was from the book,  so must we refer all ahadith back to the book so that we see it in Quran and in a better more eloquent manner in Quran.

The knowledge of a person who brought Balqis' throne in a twinle of an eye, per Quran, was all from the book. The book has the remembrance, it says so itself, and so loving Mohammad is a remembrance, and Mohammad is a remembrance, and so if you come to Quran thirsty you should be able to see everything in the Shariah with the help of the Sunnah explanation of the Rasool and the Imams.

I agree

[iceman]

We need to ask ourselves, rather than each other, a few simple but very important questions. The first one being;
1, What exactly was the issue between Yazeed and Hussein?
Lets start of with Yazeed. He wanted Hussein to swear allegiance to him. To do his baya or give him baya.

2, Why did Yazeed want this or why was Hussein's allegiance (baya) so important and necessary for Yazeed?
Hussein was a very important person and an influential figure. And I'm sure you all know why.

Yazeed needed that legitimacy that seal of approval because he wasn't comfortable and satisfied with even the majority that he had. He was already in authority and had power.

To be continued!

[iceman]

Yazeed was appointed by his father (Moawiya) who was a companion and a relative of the Prophet (s). Moawiya governed under the first three Khalifs and built a large amount of support and reputation with in the Muslims. He also governed himself as the Muslim ruler for many years.

Therefore Moawiya had a lot of supporters and loyalists Syria who accepted and gave allegiance to Yazeed willingly. In other Muslim region and areas Moawiya campaigned for Yazeed's acceptance and allegiance. Either through bribery, threatening behaviour, violence or torture.

This is the reason why Hussein's allegiance was so important because the satisfaction and comfort wasn't there and Hussein was from the Ahle Bayth along with being a very influential and respectable figure.

3, What issue did Hussein have with Yazeed which may others didn't? Why not give allegiance to Yazeed? What was the problem?

Yazeed's character and nature. He was born, raised and grewup away from his father and the Islamic values and way of life. He didn't have a clue about Islam and had no regards for Islamic principles and rules and regulations.

He was of Christian origin but not a practicing Christian either. He was from a group, family and tribe of entertainers (music and damce). Womanising, gambling, drinking and dancing was all natural and common to Yazeed. Which he continued to do openly and commonly.

He also started to tamper and alter the Sharia in may different ways and forms. And often had public conversations and held discussions about Muhammad's (s) messenger status and raised suspicion and cast doubt over it.

To be continued.