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Saqifa - ATT: Iceman

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Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2017, 05:49:56 PM »
Your the one who shows the attributes of the shaytaan........HATE!
You represent that hate by manifesting and using it on people you have no proof or evidence that they worked against Islam or Prophet saw, hence reaffirming my belief that you have devils whispering in your ear daily nightly without you being aware.

Your proof to me was a dua written nearly a millennia later and MAGICALLY it is a proof against whom you accuse?? Are you for real? People in here think your on drugs, I don't, I genuinely believe some devils knocking your nugget around in that empty skull of yours making you feel like your on a trip......sailing.

LOL! And this is the camp that Kian has joined. LOL!

LOL better than being in a camp believing in fairytale succession stories LOL

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2017, 06:02:13 PM »
how do you prove that without circular reasoning?

We are right because we follow Abu Baker and Umar as opposed to the Shiites who reject them.
How do you know they are good? Because our hadiths say so, our history says, our scholars say so....

etc. etc...

I showed a Du'a attributed to Ali that shows alternative history view. How do you know which one is correct?

It's time to refer things back to Quran primarily, and use Sunnah to unlock it's bright signs.

No more conjecture, forget your books for one second, forget the conjecture of Rijaal which you call ilmel rijaal for one second....

Is Quran showing something that cannot be proven? Or is showing a sacred history that is the only thing that could have possibly happened given what we know about God and his signs, and what we know about how the world is all over the place?

Is it showing history from the viewpoint of things that are possible to happen but possible to not happen, or it showing given what we know of the world today,   this is surely what must have happened.

When God tells us of the sacred history of his Messengers, he is emphasizing on essential truths, revealing the structure of the world from it's evil side as well as it's bright side.

He reveals his plan and why his plan has not occurred and been fulfilled, but that he plans and plans again and again,  always in benefit of humanity.

Hardly anyone moves an ounce to help him because they become fatalists. They turn away from the proof offered in Quran because it goes against their caprice and requires humility in form of sincere grief and repentance.

And the Navigators to the just city, the doors to ascension, the leaders who guide by his command, and the Captains are vitally important.

Their number in each covenant after the founder is also important.   All this has been clearly emphasized and explained, and with the sacred history, the truth has been proven and admonishment has occurred to the believers.






You dua has.....NO CHAINS......it could've been cooked up in some back alley, it's that simple.

Our proof of goodness of Sahaba ra is backed by Hadith authentic Hadith backed by the sayings of the close generation at the time of prophet saw all scrutinised and authenticated through rijal.

You cannot even back up your claim by using clear quranic evidences either.

Your drowning in your own sea my friend you have no proof to hold onto.

As for Abu Bakr ra in the noble Quran "He being the second of the two, When they were in the cave and when Muhammad said to his companion 'Grieve not, surely God is with us,' then God came to their help, and protected them with an army which they saw not". {9:40}


All you have is some fake made up dua written by a hater possibly a lover of the devil.

Link

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2017, 06:05:31 PM »
Your the one who shows the attributes of the shaytaan........HATE!
You represent that hate by manifesting and using it on people you have no proof or evidence that they worked against Islam or Prophet saw, hence reaffirming my belief that you have devils whispering in your ear daily nightly without you being aware.

Your proof to me was a dua written nearly a millennia later and MAGICALLY it is a proof against whom you accuse?? Are you for real? People in here think your on drugs, I don't, I genuinely believe some devils knocking your nugget around in that empty skull of yours making you feel like your on a trip......sailing.

It's ironic that you choose to hate the only people who do follow proofs from God and hold on to his rope and don't mix authority with the authority of God,   solely because it has been accepted from them their state, their creed, their path, and your actions are not accepted, you grow in stubbornness to the proof and rebel.

While the alternative path is to sincerely repent, and then take the path to being guided to the reminder, and the family of the reminder.

Make Quran your Imam through the Imam of time,  realizing he is the remembrance and the one who if you are to recite Quran truly by, it will be through him "by the name of God is it's sailing and anchoring".

You guys have gone to the degree you mock the concept of navigators and Captains, though Quran emphasized on ships in many Surahs and related with many subjects, and use the word Captain himself.

You mock that which Quran discusses, you mock the issue of dark forces and magic as if not real, as if I been watching to much movies or something.

But I believe in magic mainly because I witness it on the hearts of humanity, I see the clear proofs and reminders to God, but people don't even know the proofs for God in Quran.... and I see the proof for Prophethood and the 12 Successors to the final Prophet in Quran clearly, but people are heedless to it.

I don't think good forces would deceive the masses and keep people from understanding book to keep people from it's evil, no rather it makes more sense that it as it says, Satan and his forces who wish to keep people away from the light though they may have their benevolent explanation of why they do what they do.

I choose to reflect, and it has broken so many locks on Quran, and I look forward to the Quran the more I break of its locks through the help of God.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Link

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2017, 06:12:06 PM »


Quote
You dua has.....NO CHAINS......it could've been cooked up in some back alley, it's that simple.

We have chains that are deemed authentic by Shiite scholars naming the Twelve Imams. Would you believe on that basis? So not let us kid ourselves on this chain business.

I ask you again how do you prove your version of history as opposed as to what is in that Du'a?  As for me, the Du'a is proof for me for reasons other than its chains just as the Quran is proof for me for reasons other than it's chains.


Quote
You cannot even back up your claim by using clear quranic evidences either.

I can and have, and am certain through Quran that what I stated is exactly what has occurred.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Abu Muhammad

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2017, 06:54:05 PM »
@iceman,

Quick one. Just want to ask you what are the factors that you think motivate both Abu Bakr and Umar to be the caliphs?

I will see what he answers, but according to my research, Abu Baker and Umar were two sorcerers and were chosen to leaders by the dark forces, not normal leaders, but leaders that think they are avatars and think they are care takers of humanity, and they did it to harm Islam, not out of greed for power or anything, but used power a means to slowly but surely poison Islam.  They had a plan during Prophet lifetime to make a mass propaganda that does away with a very well known miracle of the Prophet (that he had a supernatural good scent), and the only way to seal the deal with that propaganda would be to finally kill him.  They wanted him dead and that to mass propagate that all the miracles claimed were lies but when Suratal Tahreem was revealed, they saw that their plans were misguided and that it was turning against them. Also Aisha and Hafsa turned to repentance that time and took side of the Nabi while these two were essential in the original plan.

These two believed in the Shayateen and Jinn, and didn't believe in Mohammad (pbuh&hf). They instigated their daughters to turn against the Prophet by which God revealed a revelation, in which showed God and his Messenger aware of the plans of they hypocrites but at the same, trying to save these two woman, to not be like the wives of Nuh and Lut, and to be obey the Prophet and with respect to the Pharoah, be like Asiya and ask God to save them from the ones commanding to them to plan against the Nabi.

Read Suratal Tahreem, indeed it showed a plot during his lifetime let alone after.

@Link,

Please take your mental pills. You sound just like a Majoos who was just overrun by Umar Ibn Al-Khattab 1,400 years ago...

Abu Muhammad

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2017, 07:10:00 PM »
@iceman,

Quick one. Just want to ask you what are the factors that you think motivate both Abu Bakr and Umar to be the caliphs?

@iceman, any thought?

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2017, 07:31:26 PM »


Quote
You dua has.....NO CHAINS......it could've been cooked up in some back alley, it's that simple.

We have chains that are deemed authentic by Shiite scholars naming the Twelve Imams. Would you believe on that basis? So not let us kid ourselves on this chain business.

I ask you again how do you prove your version of history as opposed as to what is in that Du'a?  As for me, the Du'a is proof for me for reasons other than its chains just as the Quran is proof for me for reasons other than it's chains.


Quote
You cannot even back up your claim by using clear quranic evidences either.

I can and have, and am certain through Quran that what I stated is exactly what has occurred.

What?  "That are DEEMED authentic by Shiite scholars" ???? Did you take the pill in your mouth or did you stick it somewhere else???
Deemed?? Is this your proof?? You base your proof on some scholar considered, supposed its authentic??? All your nonsense posts have been supported by this nonsense?

Oh boy even iceman can't help you here mate LOL

Nothing you have ZERO proof and sub zero understanding hence your talking GIBBERISH.

Again no proofs just a made up dua written by haters of Islam and that too you cannot authenticate either. You follow fake stuff get over it or bring your proof otherwise you are an evil hater of Islam.

Your lost you cannot even get evidences and truths and yet you blabber on and on and on..........hypocrite

Link

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2017, 10:15:25 PM »
Breath and re-read what I said.

Indeed the Quran contains all things pertaining to the guidance of humans.

It exposes the dark forces for what they and those fooled by them for what they are, and there is no excuse to not follow the reminder after clarification from the Messenger and his holy family.

You can't even accept the proofs in Quran regarding leadership, and defend the Taghut almost as it is what gives you life, so please don't tell me proofs.

There are many proofs for who Abu Baker and Umar truly are but keep believing what you want about them, see where it leads you in understanding Quran.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2017, 11:05:29 PM »
According to the Hadith that Hani mentioned one should love, respect and follow the Ansaar. Now the Ansaar gathered in Saqifa, why? To select their leader. Did Abu Bakr and Omar allow them? No they didn't. So why didn't they obey and follow the Hadith?
So now you want to twist the hadith and said it is about "follow the Ansar"? Hani clearly said the hadith about Ali & Ansar do not mean that we should follow everything they did. You did not read Hani's reply did you? 😊

Another question that why did the Ansaar gather in Saqifa on their own to select their leader?
Because they have never heard Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam told them they should elect Ali or Abu Bakr or anyone. Sunni's answer is so logical & simple, no crazy conspiracy theory at all 😁

Because they knew and were witnessing the events what the Mohajeroon were up to. What ever happened in Saqifa and what ever the outcome, was this according to the Qoran and Sunah? The answer is clearly NO.
Oh really, the Ansar knew what Abu Bakr/Umar were up to and you believed they opposed that and yet still selected Abu Bakr. Whats the point of that gathering then? The more excuses, the more laughable it is

Why did only the Ansaar gather in Saqifa to appoint a leader a successor to Muhammad (s) when this should be the responsibility of the entire Ummah as a whole and should involve everybody, all parties concerned and involved should have took part.

What was the sudden urge and need to gather in Saqifa on your own when the funeral processions are going on and the Muslim Ummah is in state of shock and mourning?

The Shaykhain were only informed of this secret gathering. And when they got to know they quietly slipped away with one named individual, why? Why weren't the others informed?

The Ansaar gathered to select their own leader because of the stance of certain reputable Muhajir who had influence and position. They (Ansaar) knew that the these Muhajir will not accept Ali and will not allow him to succeed.

They saw the pattern of disobedience by not joining Osama's army, not allowing the Prophet (s) to write a will when he asked for pen and paper and caused a fuss over it. The secrecy and planning  was whispered around and got to the Ansaar.

Your replies are getting more lame each time.

I hate to break it to you, but here's something you need to understand:

The world did not & does not revolve around Ali.

The ansar wanted to install one of their own & if they felt Ali was chosen by the prophet then they would have chosen Ali too.
In the end they accepted Abu Bakr.

One thing you cannot deny is history. Abu Bakr & Umar were the two greatest leaders the ummah ever had after the Prophet (saw). Not Ali nor anyone else.

Just look at their achievements, their rule.

They were greater leaders than all the other leaders of the ummah put together including Ali.

Ali had his merits & may have been superior to others in terms of knowledge etc but in terms of leadership there are only two i.e the shaykhan.

So those that accepted the leadership of Abu Bakr & Umar made the best decision as the Ummah florished to its greatest point under their rule.

You're absolutely right that the world does not revolve around Ali. It revolves around those who Allah removed rijs from and whom Allah purified to the state of purification. Explain to me this in your own words and time. Give me an intellectual argument based on knowledge and facts. Don't give me things based on personality worship.

History tells us something completely different than what you have put forward. Saqifa and its outcome has got nothing to do with Qoran and Sunah. It's an insult to the Prophet (s) and labels him (s) irresponsible that he left the Ummah in disarray.

We don't believe in such nonsense. Anything that goes against the Qoran and Sunah we do not accept. Learn to respect others faith and belief and refrain from getting personal.

We have the book, one weighty thing, that gives principles, rules and regulations. And we have the progeny, the other weighty thing, which is the leadership and who ate the guvnors to take care of the Muslim affairs.

Some had their own intentions and you can believe in what ever you want. But this is exactly who we are and what we believe in.

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2017, 11:19:21 PM »
@iceman,

Quick one. Just want to ask you what are the factors that you think motivate both Abu Bakr and Umar to be the caliphs?

The question doesn't even arise. It's got absolutely nothing to do with Abu Bakr, Omar or anyone else. Allah introduced the book (Qoran) through Muhammad (s) and Allah introduced leadership (Ahle Bayth) also through Muhammad (s).

Muhammad (s) left two, not only one and just the Qoran but two weighty things behind and we hold on to both of them and that is the book of Allah, the Qoran and the progeny, the leadership.

You keep bringing in Abu Bakr and Omar, this and that and struggle to justify the stage drama in Saqifa which absolutely has got nothing to do with Qoran and Sunah what so ever.

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2017, 11:34:49 PM »
Take a look at the following questions.
mma (people) found itself in a state of utter bewilderment.

1. Did Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and the Founder of the Government of Medina, consider himself qualified to appoint his own successor or not?

2. What could be the possible, hypothetical reason(s) for Muhammad's failure to appoint his own successor?

3. Since Muhammad did not appoint his own successor, did he charge the Muslim community with the task of electing or selecting its own leader?

4. Since the Muslim community lacked guidance for the selection of a leader, did the companions of Muhammad, by their common consent, and before appointing a leader (or even after appointing a leader) prepare a set of rules or guidelines to which they adhered (subsequently)?

5. What was the attitude and the conduct of the principal companions of Muhammad toward the leadership of the Muslim community after his death?

6. What was the practice of Muhammad in regard to the selection and appointment of officers?

7. What is Quran's verdict on Muhammad's practice?

8. What did Muhammad actually do about his succession?

9. What actually happened after the death of Muhammad?

10. What importance does the question of succession have in history in general?

Give it a go!

I will try........

1) He Prophet saw COULD have IF there was a call from Allah swt to do so to appoint a divine leader but there is NO clear evidence from Quran and sunnah, but there is clear evidence of CONSULTATION!!!

2) He Noble Prophet saw NEVER failed nauzobillah for He saw NEVER mentioned such or did anything to appoint anyone, He saw always CONSULTED with companions. No secrets.
(Astaghfirullah you should NEVER look at the Prophet saw as a failure nor you should attempt to portray likewise just to win an argument)

3) Yes CONSULT

4) They voted according to shura consultation which is explained in Quran as well

5) Brilliant Islam expanded and grew under the conduct of the principle companions who were chosen by consultation

6) Prophet saw as a leader didn't need to call a council or shura to appoint officers, even though He saw did ask other companions when appointing, He saw never appointed for succession, positions yes succession no, unless a divine revelation came then it was an order from above,but it never did. It's the job of a leader to appoint his officer and consult in the process.

7) It's on par with message of Nabi Mohammed saw to the T.......but no mention of following a divine successor from Quran or sunnah tho.

8) He Nabi saw NEVER appointed, He saw did CONSULT with companions, no such thing as succession through family blood lines in Islam.

9) It's clear what happened at saqifa.......They followed the Quran and Sunna and chose a leader through......SHURA CONSULTATION according to the Quran and sunnah of Nabi Mohammed saw.

10) No importance of divine succession for it's a fairytale made up unless you have clear evidence from the Quran.
As for succession in leadership then it was important and the principal companions ra showed their leadership credentials in their Imamate over the umma at their respective times and no Muslim was against their rule unless you was a hater of the sunnah.

Just one question for the moment,
Shura, consultation? In Saqifa they followed the Qoran and Sunnah and chose through consultation, shura? Ok, why wasn't the same method used to choose the second Khalifa.

Where did shura, consultation go during the second Khalifa? Why wasn't Qoran and Sunah followed the second time around? And lastly why did Abu Bakr appoint his successor? What excuse are we going to bring up here?

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #51 on: September 29, 2017, 11:38:59 PM »
Breath and re-read what I said.

Indeed the Quran contains all things pertaining to the guidance of humans.

It exposes the dark forces for what they and those fooled by them for what they are, and there is no excuse to not follow the reminder after clarification from the Messenger and his holy family.

You can't even accept the proofs in Quran regarding leadership, and defend the Taghut almost as it is what gives you life, so please don't tell me proofs.

There are many proofs for who Abu Baker and Umar truly are but keep believing what you want about them, see where it leads you in understanding Quran.

Still no proof but assumptions, come on link you have NOTHING of substance, you rely on unauthentic rumours propbably the whispering of shayateen in your head that's it.

Nothing but conjecture, your ships sailing on flimsy proofs with big holes in the sales and  the captains not there he is hiding for the last millennia, that alone smashes your cooked up theory of steering ships and captains.

You are an evil lying person who curses prophet saw's ahlubaith ra and His companions ra on weak flimsy made up night time tales, heck you cannot even find a chain for the saname quraish dua, is this what you build your faith on?? You curse and you hate coz of this unauthentic piece of garbage???

You couldn't open a lock with a key never mind opening locks in the Quran
(Whatever that means)
 
Astaghfirullah

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #52 on: September 29, 2017, 11:39:40 PM »
@iceman,

Quick one. Just want to ask you what are the factors that you think motivate both Abu Bakr and Umar to be the caliphs?

I will see what he answers, but according to my research, Abu Baker and Umar were two sorcerers and were chosen to leaders by the dark forces, not normal leaders, but leaders that think they are avatars and think they are care takers of humanity, and they did it to harm Islam, not out of greed for power or anything, but used power a means to slowly but surely poison Islam.  They had a plan during Prophet lifetime to make a mass propaganda that does away with a very well known miracle of the Prophet (that he had a supernatural good scent), and the only way to seal the deal with that propaganda would be to finally kill him.  They wanted him dead and that to mass propagate that all the miracles claimed were lies but when Suratal Tahreem was revealed, they saw that their plans were misguided and that it was turning against them. Also Aisha and Hafsa turned to repentance that time and took side of the Nabi while these two were essential in the original plan.

These two believed in the Shayateen and Jinn, and didn't believe in Mohammad (pbuh&hf). They instigated their daughters to turn against the Prophet by which God revealed a revelation, in which showed God and his Messenger aware of the plans of they hypocrites but at the same, trying to save these two woman, to not be like the wives of Nuh and Lut, and to be obey the Prophet and with respect to the Pharoah, be like Asiya and ask God to save them from the ones commanding to them to plan against the Nabi.

Read Suratal Tahreem, indeed it showed a plot during his lifetime let alone after.

Right leaders of darkness that lead the ummah to its greatest period. Yeh okay.

Here's the thing. Ali & rest of ahle bayt weren't perfect.
Its easy to pick out the faults of any human being. But ahlus sunnah love ahle bayt & are not in the business of exposing their faults.

Heck, even many members of ahle bayt/Ali's offspring did not get on with eachother.

Just one question, explain to me the verse of Tat'heer in full detail. 'To remove rijs from you and to purify you to the state of purification' explain this to me.

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2017, 11:49:24 PM »
If Muhammad (s) died without nominating his heir and successor, he is laid open to the charge of dereliction of duty. Whoever claims that he did not nominate his successor, is suggesting that he launched the frail vessel of Islam on turbulent seas without a compass, without a rudder, without an anchor and without a captain, and left it completely at the mercy of wind and wave.

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2017, 12:00:42 AM »
Take a look at the following questions.
mma (people) found itself in a state of utter bewilderment.

1. Did Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and the Founder of the Government of Medina, consider himself qualified to appoint his own successor or not?

2. What could be the possible, hypothetical reason(s) for Muhammad's failure to appoint his own successor?

3. Since Muhammad did not appoint his own successor, did he charge the Muslim community with the task of electing or selecting its own leader?

4. Since the Muslim community lacked guidance for the selection of a leader, did the companions of Muhammad, by their common consent, and before appointing a leader (or even after appointing a leader) prepare a set of rules or guidelines to which they adhered (subsequently)?

5. What was the attitude and the conduct of the principal companions of Muhammad toward the leadership of the Muslim community after his death?

6. What was the practice of Muhammad in regard to the selection and appointment of officers?

7. What is Quran's verdict on Muhammad's practice?

8. What did Muhammad actually do about his succession?

9. What actually happened after the death of Muhammad?

10. What importance does the question of succession have in history in general?

Give it a go!

I will try........

1) He Prophet saw COULD have IF there was a call from Allah swt to do so to appoint a divine leader but there is NO clear evidence from Quran and sunnah, but there is clear evidence of CONSULTATION!!!

2) He Noble Prophet saw NEVER failed nauzobillah for He saw NEVER mentioned such or did anything to appoint anyone, He saw always CONSULTED with companions. No secrets.
(Astaghfirullah you should NEVER look at the Prophet saw as a failure nor you should attempt to portray likewise just to win an argument)

3) Yes CONSULT

4) They voted according to shura consultation which is explained in Quran as well

5) Brilliant Islam expanded and grew under the conduct of the principle companions who were chosen by consultation

6) Prophet saw as a leader didn't need to call a council or shura to appoint officers, even though He saw did ask other companions when appointing, He saw never appointed for succession, positions yes succession no, unless a divine revelation came then it was an order from above,but it never did. It's the job of a leader to appoint his officer and consult in the process.

7) It's on par with message of Nabi Mohammed saw to the T.......but no mention of following a divine successor from Quran or sunnah tho.

8) He Nabi saw NEVER appointed, He saw did CONSULT with companions, no such thing as succession through family blood lines in Islam.

9) It's clear what happened at saqifa.......They followed the Quran and Sunna and chose a leader through......SHURA CONSULTATION according to the Quran and sunnah of Nabi Mohammed saw.

10) No importance of divine succession for it's a fairytale made up unless you have clear evidence from the Quran.
As for succession in leadership then it was important and the principal companions ra showed their leadership credentials in their Imamate over the umma at their respective times and no Muslim was against their rule unless you was a hater of the sunnah.

Just one question for the moment,
Shura, consultation? In Saqifa they followed the Qoran and Sunnah and chose through consultation, shura? Ok, why wasn't the same method used to choose the second Khalifa.

Where did shura, consultation go during the second Khalifa? Why wasn't Qoran and Sunah followed the second time around? And lastly why did Abu Bakr appoint his successor? What excuse are we going to bring up here?

Are they your thought up questions? Or is it copy pasted?

you really are clutching on straws man😊

Abu Bakr siddeeq ra consulted amongst the 6 Sahaba ra individually before selecting Umar Farukh ra.

Shura consultation = Quran and sunnah

Divine appointment = ?????/?????

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2017, 12:02:49 AM »
Take a look at the following questions.
mma (people) found itself in a state of utter bewilderment.

1. Did Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and the Founder of the Government of Medina, consider himself qualified to appoint his own successor or not?

2. What could be the possible, hypothetical reason(s) for Muhammad's failure to appoint his own successor?

3. Since Muhammad did not appoint his own successor, did he charge the Muslim community with the task of electing or selecting its own leader?

4. Since the Muslim community lacked guidance for the selection of a leader, did the companions of Muhammad, by their common consent, and before appointing a leader (or even after appointing a leader) prepare a set of rules or guidelines to which they adhered (subsequently)?

5. What was the attitude and the conduct of the principal companions of Muhammad toward the leadership of the Muslim community after his death?

6. What was the practice of Muhammad in regard to the selection and appointment of officers?

7. What is Quran's verdict on Muhammad's practice?

8. What did Muhammad actually do about his succession?

9. What actually happened after the death of Muhammad?

10. What importance does the question of succession have in history in general?

Give it a go!

I will try........

1) He Prophet saw COULD have IF there was a call from Allah swt to do so to appoint a divine leader but there is NO clear evidence from Quran and sunnah, but there is clear evidence of CONSULTATION!!!

2) He Noble Prophet saw NEVER failed nauzobillah for He saw NEVER mentioned such or did anything to appoint anyone, He saw always CONSULTED with companions. No secrets.
(Astaghfirullah you should NEVER look at the Prophet saw as a failure nor you should attempt to portray likewise just to win an argument)

3) Yes CONSULT

4) They voted according to shura consultation which is explained in Quran as well

5) Brilliant Islam expanded and grew under the conduct of the principle companions who were chosen by consultation

6) Prophet saw as a leader didn't need to call a council or shura to appoint officers, even though He saw did ask other companions when appointing, He saw never appointed for succession, positions yes succession no, unless a divine revelation came then it was an order from above,but it never did. It's the job of a leader to appoint his officer and consult in the process.

7) It's on par with message of Nabi Mohammed saw to the T.......but no mention of following a divine successor from Quran or sunnah tho.

8) He Nabi saw NEVER appointed, He saw did CONSULT with companions, no such thing as succession through family blood lines in Islam.

9) It's clear what happened at saqifa.......They followed the Quran and Sunna and chose a leader through......SHURA CONSULTATION according to the Quran and sunnah of Nabi Mohammed saw.

10) No importance of divine succession for it's a fairytale made up unless you have clear evidence from the Quran.
As for succession in leadership then it was important and the principal companions ra showed their leadership credentials in their Imamate over the umma at their respective times and no Muslim was against their rule unless you was a hater of the sunnah.

Just one question for the moment,
Shura, consultation? In Saqifa they followed the Qoran and Sunnah and chose through consultation, shura? Ok, why wasn't the same method used to choose the second Khalifa.

Where did shura, consultation go during the second Khalifa? Why wasn't Qoran and Sunah followed the second time around? And lastly why did Abu Bakr appoint his successor? What excuse are we going to bring up here?

Are they your thought up questions? Or is it copy pasted?

you really are clutching on straws man😊

Abu Bakr siddeeq ra consulted amongst the 6 Sahaba ra individually before selecting Umar Farukh ra.

Shura consultation = Quran and sunnah

Divine appointment = ?????/?????

You are so funny. You really make me laugh. Did he? Any references?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 12:04:21 AM by iceman »

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2017, 12:05:31 AM »
Also, it is narrated in Sahih al-Bukhari that Umar said: “When he (the Apostle) died, the Ansar opposed us. They gathered in the Saqifa Banu Sa'eda. Ali, Zubayr and their friends also opposed us.”

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2017, 12:13:58 AM »
The Sunni Muslims say that Abu Bakr and Omar were the principal companions of Muhammad (s). It were both of them, the principal companions, who seized the government of Medina at a time when Ali and all members of Banu Hashim were busy with his obsequies.

As soon as the Prophet died, his principal companions gathered in the outhouse of Saqifa to claim leadership of the community. This leadership, in their opinion, was so important that they could not pause even to bury their dead master and benefactor.

The naked struggle for power erupted within minutes of the death of the Prophet. Zamakhshari, one of the most authoritative Sunni scholars and historians, writes in this connection:

“It was the consensus of all the companions that after the death of the Prophet they had to appoint his successor immediately. They believed that doing so was more important than even to attend the funeral of their master. It was this importance that prompted Abu Bakr and Omar to address the crowd of Muslims.

iceman

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2017, 12:23:17 AM »
During the last ten years of his life, Muhammad (s) organized more than eighty expeditions. He sent out many of them under the command of some officer; others he led in person.

Whenever Muhammad (s) sent out an expedition, he appointed one of his companions as its captain. He ordered the rankers to obey him, and he made him (the captain) answerable to himself.

When the expedition returned to Medina, he debriefed the captain. It never so happened that he told the members of an expedition or a reconnaissance party that they had to elect or select their own captain.

In the event when Muhammad (s) was himself leading an expedition out of Medina, he appointed a governor for the city, and made him responsible for maintaining law and order during his own absence. He never told the citizens that in his absence, it was their duty to elect or select a governor for themselves.

In 630 when Muhammad (s) captured Makkah, and incorporated it into the new State, he appointed an administrator for that city, and he did so without consulting either the Makkans or his own companions.

Mythbuster1

Re: Saqifa - ATT: Iceman
« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2017, 12:25:39 AM »
If Muhammad (s) died without nominating his heir and successor, he is laid open to the charge of dereliction of duty. Whoever claims that he did not nominate his successor, is suggesting that he launched the frail vessel of Islam on turbulent seas without a compass, without a rudder, without an anchor and without a captain, and left it completely at the mercy of wind and wave.

Oh boy another wannabe sailor of the high seas😂

Yes it's people like you who believe in such garbage astaghfirullah, just coz you cannot find a link from Quran or sunnah just becoz you cannot EXPLAIN your divine Imamate theory to a Muslim you will blame the prophet saw of dereliction of duty??????

ASTAGHFIRULLAH ASTAGHFIRULLAH ASTAGHFIRULLAH

Do you even realise what filth your opening your mind upto??
Look at link the guy is lost to devil whisperings and you are lowering the status of Nabi Mohammed saw just coz we don't believe in a divine imam on appointment from Allah swt.

We say He saw FULLY ACCOMPLISHED HIS MISSION before He saw left the world

I think it must be that dark magic which is common amongst shia that keeps pushing them to this divine Imamate appointment theory......ask link HE KNOWS😜


 

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