Saqifa - ATT: Iceman

[Mythbuster1]

Take a look at the following questions.
mma (people) found itself in a state of utter bewilderment.

1. Did Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and the Founder of the Government of Medina, consider himself qualified to appoint his own successor or not?

2. What could be the possible, hypothetical reason(s) for Muhammad's failure to appoint his own successor?

3. Since Muhammad did not appoint his own successor, did he charge the Muslim community with the task of electing or selecting its own leader?

4. Since the Muslim community lacked guidance for the selection of a leader, did the companions of Muhammad, by their common consent, and before appointing a leader (or even after appointing a leader) prepare a set of rules or guidelines to which they adhered (subsequently)?

5. What was the attitude and the conduct of the principal companions of Muhammad toward the leadership of the Muslim community after his death?

6. What was the practice of Muhammad in regard to the selection and appointment of officers?

7. What is Quran's verdict on Muhammad's practice?

8. What did Muhammad actually do about his succession?

9. What actually happened after the death of Muhammad?

10. What importance does the question of succession have in history in general?

Give it a go!

I will try........

1) He Prophet saw COULD have IF there was a call from Allah swt to do so to appoint a divine leader but there is NO clear evidence from Quran and sunnah, but there is clear evidence of CONSULTATION!!!

2) He Noble Prophet saw NEVER failed nauzobillah for He saw NEVER mentioned such or did anything to appoint anyone, He saw always CONSULTED with companions. No secrets.
(Astaghfirullah you should NEVER look at the Prophet saw as a failure nor you should attempt to portray likewise just to win an argument)

3) Yes CONSULT

4) They voted according to shura consultation which is explained in Quran as well

5) Brilliant Islam expanded and grew under the conduct of the principle companions who were chosen by consultation

6) Prophet saw as a leader didn't need to call a council or shura to appoint officers, even though He saw did ask other companions when appointing, He saw never appointed for succession, positions yes succession no, unless a divine revelation came then it was an order from above,but it never did. It's the job of a leader to appoint his officer and consult in the process.

7) It's on par with message of Nabi Mohammed saw to the T.......but no mention of following a divine successor from Quran or sunnah tho.

He Nabi saw NEVER appointed, He saw did CONSULT with companions, no such thing as succession through family blood lines in Islam.

9) It's clear what happened at saqifa.......They followed the Quran and Sunna and chose a leader through......SHURA CONSULTATION according to the Quran and sunnah of Nabi Mohammed saw.

10) No importance of divine succession for it's a fairytale made up unless you have clear evidence from the Quran.
As for succession in leadership then it was important and the principal companions ra showed their leadership credentials in their Imamate over the umma at their respective times and no Muslim was against their rule unless you was a hater of the sunnah.

Just one question for the moment,
Shura, consultation? In Saqifa they followed the Qoran and Sunnah and chose through consultation, shura? Ok, why wasn't the same method used to choose the second Khalifa.

Where did shura, consultation go during the second Khalifa? Why wasn't Qoran and Sunah followed the second time around? And lastly why did Abu Bakr appoint his successor? What excuse are we going to bring up here?

Are they your thought up questions? Or is it copy pasted?

you really are clutching on straws man😊

Abu Bakr siddeeq ra consulted amongst the 6 Sahaba ra individually before selecting Umar Farukh ra.

Shura consultation = Quran and sunnah

Divine appointment = ??/??

You are so funny. You really make me laugh. Did he? Any references?

Yes your laughing now that your 10 points have COLLAPSED lol

It's common knowledge within ahlusunna it's EASILY available online, it's not my fault if you havent done your homework or.......copy paste work😜👍

[iceman]

Take a look at the following questions.
mma (people) found itself in a state of utter bewilderment.

1. Did Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and the Founder of the Government of Medina, consider himself qualified to appoint his own successor or not?

2. What could be the possible, hypothetical reason(s) for Muhammad's failure to appoint his own successor?

3. Since Muhammad did not appoint his own successor, did he charge the Muslim community with the task of electing or selecting its own leader?

4. Since the Muslim community lacked guidance for the selection of a leader, did the companions of Muhammad, by their common consent, and before appointing a leader (or even after appointing a leader) prepare a set of rules or guidelines to which they adhered (subsequently)?

5. What was the attitude and the conduct of the principal companions of Muhammad toward the leadership of the Muslim community after his death?

6. What was the practice of Muhammad in regard to the selection and appointment of officers?

7. What is Quran's verdict on Muhammad's practice?

8. What did Muhammad actually do about his succession?

9. What actually happened after the death of Muhammad?

10. What importance does the question of succession have in history in general?

Give it a go!

I will try........

1) He Prophet saw COULD have IF there was a call from Allah swt to do so to appoint a divine leader but there is NO clear evidence from Quran and sunnah, but there is clear evidence of CONSULTATION!!!

2) He Noble Prophet saw NEVER failed nauzobillah for He saw NEVER mentioned such or did anything to appoint anyone, He saw always CONSULTED with companions. No secrets.
(Astaghfirullah you should NEVER look at the Prophet saw as a failure nor you should attempt to portray likewise just to win an argument)

3) Yes CONSULT

4) They voted according to shura consultation which is explained in Quran as well

5) Brilliant Islam expanded and grew under the conduct of the principle companions who were chosen by consultation

6) Prophet saw as a leader didn't need to call a council or shura to appoint officers, even though He saw did ask other companions when appointing, He saw never appointed for succession, positions yes succession no, unless a divine revelation came then it was an order from above,but it never did. It's the job of a leader to appoint his officer and consult in the process.

7) It's on par with message of Nabi Mohammed saw to the T.......but no mention of following a divine successor from Quran or sunnah tho.

He Nabi saw NEVER appointed, He saw did CONSULT with companions, no such thing as succession through family blood lines in Islam.

9) It's clear what happened at saqifa.......They followed the Quran and Sunna and chose a leader through......SHURA CONSULTATION according to the Quran and sunnah of Nabi Mohammed saw.

10) No importance of divine succession for it's a fairytale made up unless you have clear evidence from the Quran.
As for succession in leadership then it was important and the principal companions ra showed their leadership credentials in their Imamate over the umma at their respective times and no Muslim was against their rule unless you was a hater of the sunnah.

Just one question for the moment,
Shura, consultation? In Saqifa they followed the Qoran and Sunnah and chose through consultation, shura? Ok, why wasn't the same method used to choose the second Khalifa.

Where did shura, consultation go during the second Khalifa? Why wasn't Qoran and Sunah followed the second time around? And lastly why did Abu Bakr appoint his successor? What excuse are we going to bring up here?

Are they your thought up questions? Or is it copy pasted?

you really are clutching on straws man😊

Abu Bakr siddeeq ra consulted amongst the 6 Sahaba ra individually before selecting Umar Farukh ra.

Shura consultation = Quran and sunnah

Divine appointment = ??/??

You are so funny. You really make me laugh. Did he? Any references?

Yes your laughing now that your 10 points have COLLAPSED lol

It's common knowledge within ahlusunna it's EASILY available online, it's not my fault if you havent done your homework or.......copy paste work😜👍

My ten points didn't collapse, you just brushed them aside. It's never your fault. The other side is always to blame. Common knowledge within Ahlesunah, pull the other one.

[iceman]

Here is the first evidence from the Qoran about third in line in authority after Muhammad (s);

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

[iceman]

Here is the second evidence from the Qoran about third in line in authority after Muhammad (s);

"Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]."

[iceman]

And who exactly are the ones who are classified as the Ulul Amre and obedience towards them has been mentioned in the Quran?

Who are the ones who Allah has mentioned as Wali alongside himself and his Messenger (s)?

These two verses are more than enough to understand and accept that Allah has put someone third in line in authority in sequence and alongside himself and his Messenger (s).

And who are they? Well lets ask Allah and see in the Qoran.

"Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification."

[iceman]

Others added their support, and Abu Bakr was made the first caliph. This choice was disputed by some of Muhammad's companions, who believed that Ali (Ali ibn Abi Talib), the Prophet's cousin and son-in-law, had already been designated as his successor by the Prophet.

[iceman]

Which of you, then, will help me in this, and be my brother, mine executor and my successor amongst you?’ All remained silent, except for the youthful ʿAlī who spoke up: ‘O Prophet of God, I will be thy helper in this.’ The Prophet then placed his hand on ʿAlī’s neck and said, ‘This is my brother, mine executor and my successor amongst you. Hearken unto him and obey him.’

(Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasul Allah, tr. A Guilaume, The Life of Muhammad, 118)

[Hadrami]

Why did only the Ansaar gather in Saqifa to appoint a leader a successor to Muhammad (s) when this should be the responsibility of the entire Ummah as a whole and should involve everybody, all parties concerned and involved should have took part.

Ansar was the host, the original inhabitant of Madina, the largest & strongest "camp". A leader passed away and as in any society, they would want a new leader.Its normal Ansar wanted a leader of their own. They have never heard about hocus pocus 12 demigods, the previous leader did not tell them that A or B or C would be their new leader. Your small sect is just a crazy bunch of conspiracy theorist who are void of any ability to understand something as simple as that.

What was the sudden urge and need to gather in Saqifa on your own when the funeral processions are going on and the Muslim Ummah is in state of shock and mourning?

So everything should stop and everyone should stay at home like women who lost their husband? Why don't you ask why "the sudden urge and need to gather in state of shock and mourning" after your 20th century demigod, Khomeini died? Khamenei was selected a week before Khomeini was buried. Feeling more stupid now?

The Shaykhain were only informed of this secret gathering. And when they got to know they quietly slipped away with one named individual, why? Why weren't the others informed?

Yep, it was such a secret gathering of many people in such a known public gathering spot. Come on, keep those crazy theory coming

The Ansaar gathered to select their own leader because of the stance of certain reputable Muhajir who had influence and position. They (Ansaar) knew that the these Muhajir will not accept Ali and will not allow him to succeed.

OK, so the Ansar knew and did not like Abu Bakr/Umar so called plan and wanted to prevent it from happening by following Umar in choosing Abu Bakr and pledged allegiance to him. Get a recorder and replay it to yourself. Its too funny.

They saw the pattern of disobedience by not joining Osama's army, not allowing the Prophet (s) to write a will when he asked for pen and paper and caused a fuss over it. The secrecy and planning  was whispered around and got to the Ansaar.

Ansar saw various "pattern of disobedience", they wanted to prevent the conspirators from executing their plan and then Ansar helped the conspirator by selecting them. Man, your bollywood script is a comedy, not a thriller

[Link]

Quran did talk about leadership.

Overall the leaders in the past were Prophets, and overall the Prophets were Messengers.

God didn't say Mohammad is the seal of guides or leaders, but said he is seal of Prophets. All the wisdom of stating there is no Prophets after Mohammad, would apply, to saying there is no leaders and guides appointed by God after. Yet, that is not what we see in Quran.

Not only that, but we see emphasis on the leadership dimension and the authority dimension and kingship dimension and the obedience dimension and being the way dimension and being a navigator dimension and being the light of God dimension of the Prophets emphasized all in context of verses that Shiite hadiths interpret to be about Ahlulbayt. For example Ulil-Amr, family of the reminder, etc....

And we see this Wilayah aspect of the Rasool is emphasized through out Quran as well.

And we not only see emphasis on this, but emphasis that they come as chosen families.

And not only do we see emphasis on chosen families and chosen offspring, but we see emphasis on their exact number, mainly twelve Succeeding Navigators to the founder.

And not only do we see emphasis on the number, we see it argued universally to humanity, recalling the twelve months - recalling the moon and sun cycles, just as Noah recalled nature to show the inward kingdom and Tawheed.

There was a very clean way of God throughout history, but people are trying to make it ambiguous.


And Ulil-Amr are in context in negating the Taghut and Anti-chosen/annointed ones Authorities, context of reminding of the Authority of a chosen family in the past, and afterwards recalling the obedience owed to all Messengers.

And Quran shows when people demand proofs but don't have proofs of their own, it is the case that they want people to follow conjecture and blindness and rejecting clear insights and proofs.

[Abu Muhammad]

@iceman,

Quick one. Just want to ask you what are the factors that you think motivate both Abu Bakr and Umar to be the caliphs?

The question doesn't even arise. It's got absolutely nothing to do with Abu Bakr, Omar or anyone else. Allah introduced the book (Qoran) through Muhammad (s) and Allah introduced leadership (Ahle Bayth) also through Muhammad (s).

Muhammad (s) left two, not only one and just the Qoran but two weighty things behind and we hold on to both of them and that is the book of Allah, the Qoran and the progeny, the leadership.

You keep bringing in Abu Bakr and Omar, this and that and struggle to justify the stage drama in Saqifa which absolutely has got nothing to do with Qoran and Sunah what so ever.

It certainly does raise a question. According to you sect, the instruction of Prophet (saw) was such a crystal clear to follow Ahlul Bayt and all of sudden, the sahabah went against the instruction and elected a leader that was not an Ahlul Bayt. So, logically, there must be some factors that motivate those actions.

So, what have you got in thought about the factors?

[Link]

That is an important question, but are you asking it to seek guidance or to argue by falsehood?

This is a more pressing question. No question is bad in itself, but Quran warns not to ask certain type of questions in Quran saying it lead people to disbelief in the past.

And that is the type of questions we see in Quran which are good questions if seeking to learn like "O Rasool, why is it that God sends a human and not an Angel, inform us why and explain why" is different then the tone of "Would God sent a mortal as a Messenger".

The Rasool had a contrained heart that could not spread his knowledge due to what people were saying and often had to wait for revelation to come, just to sort out all the propaganda going on about through revelation.

A question like "Ok, indeed the twelve Successors and Imams are proven in Quran and Sunnah, so how do we gain guidance from the Imam of our time and benefit from him"...different than the tone "What is your Imam doing, let him answer this and that question".

As for the factors,  this is what Quran is showing all the time, factors in the past, to the time of the Nabi, and after.

[iceman]

Why did only the Ansaar gather in Saqifa to appoint a leader a successor to Muhammad (s) when this should be the responsibility of the entire Ummah as a whole and should involve everybody, all parties concerned and involved should have took part.

Ansar was the host, the original inhabitant of Madina, the largest & strongest "camp". A leader passed away and as in any society, they would want a new leader.Its normal Ansar wanted a leader of their own. They have never heard about hocus pocus 12 demigods, the previous leader did not tell them that A or B or C would be their new leader. Your small sect is just a crazy bunch of conspiracy theorist who are void of any ability to understand something as simple as that.

What was the sudden urge and need to gather in Saqifa on your own when the funeral processions are going on and the Muslim Ummah is in state of shock and mourning?

So everything should stop and everyone should stay at home like women who lost their husband? Why don't you ask why "the sudden urge and need to gather in state of shock and mourning" after your 20th century demigod, Khomeini died? Khamenei was selected a week before Khomeini was buried. Feeling more stupid now?

The Shaykhain were only informed of this secret gathering. And when they got to know they quietly slipped away with one named individual, why? Why weren't the others informed?

Yep, it was such a secret gathering of many people in such a known public gathering spot. Come on, keep those crazy theory coming

The Ansaar gathered to select their own leader because of the stance of certain reputable Muhajir who had influence and position. They (Ansaar) knew that the these Muhajir will not accept Ali and will not allow him to succeed.

OK, so the Ansar knew and did not like Abu Bakr/Umar so called plan and wanted to prevent it from happening by following Umar in choosing Abu Bakr and pledged allegiance to him. Get a recorder and replay it to yourself. Its too funny.

They saw the pattern of disobedience by not joining Osama's army, not allowing the Prophet (s) to write a will when he asked for pen and paper and caused a fuss over it. The secrecy and planning  was whispered around and got to the Ansaar.

Ansar saw various "pattern of disobedience", they wanted to prevent the conspirators from executing their plan and then Ansar helped the conspirator by selecting them. Man, your bollywood script is a comedy, not a thriller

Why would the Ansaar want a leader of their own? Why didn't everybody gather together and choose a leader for the Ummah? The Ansaar knew about the stance of the Muhajir that they would not accept Ali nor would they let him succeed.The Prophet (s) was dying and the signs and disobedience towards him was present and clear. There is a lot to support this. If one doesn't want to accept then that is fine. Like I said before the decision in Saqifa wasn't conducted properly and fairly.

The previous leader didn't tell the Ummah about A, B or C? Are you serious? You are clearly accusing the previous leader of irresponsibility and carelessness. Khamenei was selected a week before Khomeini was buried. What, did a separate faction or tribe gather to choose their own and the others suddenly rushed to stop them that, "what the hell do you think you are doing?."

[iceman]

Why did only the Ansaar gather in Saqifa to appoint a leader a successor to Muhammad (s) when this should be the responsibility of the entire Ummah as a whole and should involve everybody, all parties concerned and involved should have took part.

Ansar was the host, the original inhabitant of Madina, the largest & strongest "camp". A leader passed away and as in any society, they would want a new leader.Its normal Ansar wanted a leader of their own. They have never heard about hocus pocus 12 demigods, the previous leader did not tell them that A or B or C would be their new leader. Your small sect is just a crazy bunch of conspiracy theorist who are void of any ability to understand something as simple as that.

What was the sudden urge and need to gather in Saqifa on your own when the funeral processions are going on and the Muslim Ummah is in state of shock and mourning?

So everything should stop and everyone should stay at home like women who lost their husband? Why don't you ask why "the sudden urge and need to gather in state of shock and mourning" after your 20th century demigod, Khomeini died? Khamenei was selected a week before Khomeini was buried. Feeling more stupid now?

The Shaykhain were only informed of this secret gathering. And when they got to know they quietly slipped away with one named individual, why? Why weren't the others informed?

Yep, it was such a secret gathering of many people in such a known public gathering spot. Come on, keep those crazy theory coming

The Ansaar gathered to select their own leader because of the stance of certain reputable Muhajir who had influence and position. They (Ansaar) knew that the these Muhajir will not accept Ali and will not allow him to succeed.

OK, so the Ansar knew and did not like Abu Bakr/Umar so called plan and wanted to prevent it from happening by following Umar in choosing Abu Bakr and pledged allegiance to him. Get a recorder and replay it to yourself. Its too funny.

They saw the pattern of disobedience by not joining Osama's army, not allowing the Prophet (s) to write a will when he asked for pen and paper and caused a fuss over it. The secrecy and planning  was whispered around and got to the Ansaar.

Ansar saw various "pattern of disobedience", they wanted to prevent the conspirators from executing their plan and then Ansar helped the conspirator by selecting them. Man, your bollywood script is a comedy, not a thriller

Like I said before that the gathering in Saqifa wasn't a major even or a public gathering. It wasn't conducted properly,  fairly or justly. One person came to Abu Bakr and Omar, who were sitting together while the funeral procession was going on and whispered to them. Why were the two only informed and why did only just the two of them slip away?

Why wasn't it announced and the others informed so if not all but other important personalities and figures would have gone together? This didn't happen because the outcome would have been different. You can't just ignore important questions and facts concerning Saqifa and just brush the matter aside. This needs to be discussed and looked at throughly.

Once again Abu Bakr wasn't selected or elected, firstly because it wasn't conducted justly, fairly and properly and secondly because one thing led to another and things were heating up and about to get out of hand.

The Ansaar did not want trouble and didn't want the Ummah to break out in to civil war. So the Ansaar gave in.

Look at the matter properly and openly and consider all the facts and questions that arise. Abu Bakr ended up being the leader. It was a hasty and coincidental decision.

Another important fact that when the news broke out and spread about what happened in Saqifa and the coincidental decision others also rejected and refused to give baya to Abu Bakr. What happened? Violence and threatening behaviour was used to impose this decision.

[Mythbuster1]

Take a look at the following questions.
mma (people) found itself in a state of utter bewilderment.

1. Did Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and the Founder of the Government of Medina, consider himself qualified to appoint his own successor or not?

2. What could be the possible, hypothetical reason(s) for Muhammad's failure to appoint his own successor?

3. Since Muhammad did not appoint his own successor, did he charge the Muslim community with the task of electing or selecting its own leader?

4. Since the Muslim community lacked guidance for the selection of a leader, did the companions of Muhammad, by their common consent, and before appointing a leader (or even after appointing a leader) prepare a set of rules or guidelines to which they adhered (subsequently)?

5. What was the attitude and the conduct of the principal companions of Muhammad toward the leadership of the Muslim community after his death?

6. What was the practice of Muhammad in regard to the selection and appointment of officers?

7. What is Quran's verdict on Muhammad's practice?

8. What did Muhammad actually do about his succession?

9. What actually happened after the death of Muhammad?

10. What importance does the question of succession have in history in general?

Give it a go!

I will try........

1) He Prophet saw COULD have IF there was a call from Allah swt to do so to appoint a divine leader but there is NO clear evidence from Quran and sunnah, but there is clear evidence of CONSULTATION!!!

2) He Noble Prophet saw NEVER failed nauzobillah for He saw NEVER mentioned such or did anything to appoint anyone, He saw always CONSULTED with companions. No secrets.
(Astaghfirullah you should NEVER look at the Prophet saw as a failure nor you should attempt to portray likewise just to win an argument)

3) Yes CONSULT

4) They voted according to shura consultation which is explained in Quran as well

5) Brilliant Islam expanded and grew under the conduct of the principle companions who were chosen by consultation

6) Prophet saw as a leader didn't need to call a council or shura to appoint officers, even though He saw did ask other companions when appointing, He saw never appointed for succession, positions yes succession no, unless a divine revelation came then it was an order from above,but it never did. It's the job of a leader to appoint his officer and consult in the process.

7) It's on par with message of Nabi Mohammed saw to the T.......but no mention of following a divine successor from Quran or sunnah tho.

He Nabi saw NEVER appointed, He saw did CONSULT with companions, no such thing as succession through family blood lines in Islam.

9) It's clear what happened at saqifa.......They followed the Quran and Sunna and chose a leader through......SHURA CONSULTATION according to the Quran and sunnah of Nabi Mohammed saw.

10) No importance of divine succession for it's a fairytale made up unless you have clear evidence from the Quran.
As for succession in leadership then it was important and the principal companions ra showed their leadership credentials in their Imamate over the umma at their respective times and no Muslim was against their rule unless you was a hater of the sunnah.

Just one question for the moment,
Shura, consultation? In Saqifa they followed the Qoran and Sunnah and chose through consultation, shura? Ok, why wasn't the same method used to choose the second Khalifa.

Where did shura, consultation go during the second Khalifa? Why wasn't Qoran and Sunah followed the second time around? And lastly why did Abu Bakr appoint his successor? What excuse are we going to bring up here?

Are they your thought up questions? Or is it copy pasted?

you really are clutching on straws man😊

Abu Bakr siddeeq ra consulted amongst the 6 Sahaba ra individually before selecting Umar Farukh ra.

Shura consultation = Quran and sunnah

Divine appointment = ??/??

You are so funny. You really make me laugh. Did he? Any references?

Yes your laughing now that your 10 points have COLLAPSED lol

It's common knowledge within ahlusunna it's EASILY available online, it's not my fault if you havent done your homework or.......copy paste work😜👍

My ten points didn't collapse, you just brushed them aside. It's never your fault. The other side is always to blame. Common knowledge within Ahlesunah, pull the other one.

LOL you copy pasted from alislam.org thinking no sunni could answer lol, you've already made a fool of yourself and the 10 stupid questions, in all honesty a sunni kid could answer them and still have SHURA in his head and not no divine imamah concept.

Shows how GENUINE you are when you have to copy paste questions and then copy paste the same answer.

Your religion is in free fall..........THERE IS NO SUCH DIVINE APPOINTMENT just your assumptions and theories, just look at link and look at your source alislam.org😂😂👍👍

[iceman]

Take a look at the following questions.
mma (people) found itself in a state of utter bewilderment.

1. Did Muhammad, the Messenger of God, and the Founder of the Government of Medina, consider himself qualified to appoint his own successor or not?

2. What could be the possible, hypothetical reason(s) for Muhammad's failure to appoint his own successor?

3. Since Muhammad did not appoint his own successor, did he charge the Muslim community with the task of electing or selecting its own leader?

4. Since the Muslim community lacked guidance for the selection of a leader, did the companions of Muhammad, by their common consent, and before appointing a leader (or even after appointing a leader) prepare a set of rules or guidelines to which they adhered (subsequently)?

5. What was the attitude and the conduct of the principal companions of Muhammad toward the leadership of the Muslim community after his death?

6. What was the practice of Muhammad in regard to the selection and appointment of officers?

7. What is Quran's verdict on Muhammad's practice?

8. What did Muhammad actually do about his succession?

9. What actually happened after the death of Muhammad?

10. What importance does the question of succession have in history in general?

Give it a go!

I will try........

1) He Prophet saw COULD have IF there was a call from Allah swt to do so to appoint a divine leader but there is NO clear evidence from Quran and sunnah, but there is clear evidence of CONSULTATION!!!

2) He Noble Prophet saw NEVER failed nauzobillah for He saw NEVER mentioned such or did anything to appoint anyone, He saw always CONSULTED with companions. No secrets.
(Astaghfirullah you should NEVER look at the Prophet saw as a failure nor you should attempt to portray likewise just to win an argument)

3) Yes CONSULT

4) They voted according to shura consultation which is explained in Quran as well

5) Brilliant Islam expanded and grew under the conduct of the principle companions who were chosen by consultation

6) Prophet saw as a leader didn't need to call a council or shura to appoint officers, even though He saw did ask other companions when appointing, He saw never appointed for succession, positions yes succession no, unless a divine revelation came then it was an order from above,but it never did. It's the job of a leader to appoint his officer and consult in the process.

7) It's on par with message of Nabi Mohammed saw to the T.......but no mention of following a divine successor from Quran or sunnah tho.

He Nabi saw NEVER appointed, He saw did CONSULT with companions, no such thing as succession through family blood lines in Islam.

9) It's clear what happened at saqifa.......They followed the Quran and Sunna and chose a leader through......SHURA CONSULTATION according to the Quran and sunnah of Nabi Mohammed saw.

10) No importance of divine succession for it's a fairytale made up unless you have clear evidence from the Quran.
As for succession in leadership then it was important and the principal companions ra showed their leadership credentials in their Imamate over the umma at their respective times and no Muslim was against their rule unless you was a hater of the sunnah.

Just one question for the moment,
Shura, consultation? In Saqifa they followed the Qoran and Sunnah and chose through consultation, shura? Ok, why wasn't the same method used to choose the second Khalifa.

Where did shura, consultation go during the second Khalifa? Why wasn't Qoran and Sunah followed the second time around? And lastly why did Abu Bakr appoint his successor? What excuse are we going to bring up here?

Are they your thought up questions? Or is it copy pasted?

you really are clutching on straws man😊

Abu Bakr siddeeq ra consulted amongst the 6 Sahaba ra individually before selecting Umar Farukh ra.

Shura consultation = Quran and sunnah

Divine appointment = ??/??

You are so funny. You really make me laugh. Did he? Any references?

Yes your laughing now that your 10 points have COLLAPSED lol

It's common knowledge within ahlusunna it's EASILY available online, it's not my fault if you havent done your homework or.......copy paste work😜👍

My ten points didn't collapse, you just brushed them aside. It's never your fault. The other side is always to blame. Common knowledge within Ahlesunah, pull the other one.

LOL you copy pasted from alislam.org thinking no sunni could answer lol, you've already made a fool of yourself and the 10 stupid questions, in all honesty a sunni kid could answer them and still have SHURA in his head and not no divine imamah concept.

Shows how GENUINE you are when you have to copy paste questions and then copy paste the same answer.

Your religion is in free fall..........THERE IS NO SUCH DIVINE APPOINTMENT just your assumptions and theories, just look at link and look at your source alislam.org😂😂👍👍

Copy paste, link, this, that and the other,  get over it. If something or material is put forward to you at least have the decency and manners to refute it properly through discussion rather than jumping up and down and coming out with a few words just feel confident and comfortable that at least I said something.

Once again what ever the Prophet (s) gave we took. The book is divine appointment and so are those who have been put third in line in authority after the Messenger (s) by Allah.

Once again the Prophet (s) left two weighty things behind for us to hold on to and to keep together. First the book which is divinely appointed by Allah and the second the progeny who are also divinely appointed by Allah.

If you want to continue to base your belief/faith on hasty and coincidental historical incidents and events that took place and want to use them as foundation and pillars of your belief/faith then by all means continue.

But at least let me tell you this that your intentional and deliberate false and wrong campaign against us which is full of hatred and envy isn't working, didn't work and never will.

I know you have to continue with such a stance otherwise your belif/faith will instantly and automatically collapse. This is your only means of survival. People aren't daft or stupid.Let each and every individual judge for themselves and keep your judgement and verdict to yourself.

[iceman]

Abu Bakr’s first claim – The Muhajireen being a tribe of the Quraysh were his close family.

The argument was that their relationship to the Prophet (saaws) meant that khilafat was their right. In terms of closeness there was no tribe more closely related to the Prophet (saaws) than Bani Muttalib. They were the blood descendants of the Prophet (saaws), when the verse “And warn your tribe of near kindred…” (The Qur’an 26: 214) inviting the Prophet (saaws)’s close relatives to embrace Islam. Banu Muttalib were invited not the tribes of  Abu Bakr, Hadhrath Umar or Abu Ubaydah.

Furthermore in terms of closeness no one was closer to the Prophet (saaws) than Imam Ali (as) as he was his first cousin, the Prophet (saaws) had declared him to be his brother, the husband of his daughter and the father of his grand children.

Abu Bakr seemed to suggest that the Quraysh had a right to succession, they were related to the Holy Prophet (saaws) and had hence inherited that right. Islamic Law does not stipulate inheritance for the distant relatives, it refers to the close / blood relatives. If the Quraysh were entitled to inherit on grounds of their distant relationship to the Holy Prophet (saaws) did  Ali (as) not have a greater right?

[iceman]

Don't be hesitant or afraid. By all means refute but through discussion and debate. Or at least let the people read and get to know both sides of the story/argument and let them make up their own mind.

[Mythbuster1]

Here is the first evidence from the Qoran about third in line in authority after Muhammad (s);

"O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result."

Where is divine appointment? Could you care to show us without going into a story or long explanation?

AUTHORITY (the only relevant word that you RELY on).......show us where is th DIVINE in that authority?........Allah swt NEVER said it in the verse you posted but your seeing things that Allah almighty never mentioned

Astaghfirullah

[Mythbuster1]

Here is the second evidence from the Qoran about third in line in authority after Muhammad (s);

"Your ally is none but Allah and [therefore] His Messenger and those who have believed - those who establish prayer and give zakah, and they bow [in worship]."

Ok first one you couldn't give me a DIVINE authority let's see here...... yes I believe, I bow in worship,I pay zakah and I bow, yes I am a wali a friend of Allah swt too.......Quran is simple and beautiful and easy to understand for it RELATES to us humans and not SUPERHUMAN DIVINE IMAMS.

No divine appointments

[Mythbuster1]

And who exactly are the ones who are classified as the Ulul Amre and obedience towards them has been mentioned in the Quran?

Who are the ones who Allah has mentioned as Wali alongside himself and his Messenger (s)?

These two verses are more than enough to understand and accept that Allah has put someone third in line in authority in sequence and alongside himself and his Messenger (s).

And who are they? Well lets ask Allah and see in the Qoran.

"Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification."

No ones classified as divine authority  from the ahlubaith imams in Quran, the 2 ayahs you posted have no inkling of divine appointment inside it.

The rest is your own take on something that is not in the Quran.