ShiaPen responses

[أبو ماريا المرزم]

Can someone refute this?


http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/pen-and-paper/addressing-arguments.html

[fgss]

I think there is no need to refute everything they argue. They are mostly following their emotions and rejecting the evidences, even from their own books.

Conclusion on incident of pen and paper is here:
http://twelvershia.net/2016/05/03/answer-to-the-calamity-of-thursday-pen-and-paper-hadith/

[ShiaMan]

So everyone is in agreement that Caliph Umar refused pen/paper saying the Prophet is possibly delusional; only discussion is why he did what he did.

Correct?

[MuslimK]

I think there is no need to refute everything they argue. They are mostly following their emotions and rejecting the evidences, even from their own books.

Conclusion on incident of pen and paper is here:
http://twelvershia.net/2016/05/03/answer-to-the-calamity-of-thursday-pen-and-paper-hadith/

That is the best quick response.

[MuslimK]

You can also check this (response to Shiapen):

http://web.archive.org/web/20080224200452/http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/sahabah/pen-and-paper

[Noor-us-Sunnah]

So everyone is in agreement that Caliph Umar refused pen/paper saying the Prophet is possibly delusional; only discussion is why he did what he did.

Correct?

That's a lie attributed to Umar by enemies of Islam. Umar didn't say those words.

[muslim720]

So everyone is in agreement that Caliph Umar refused pen/paper saying the Prophet is possibly delusional; only discussion is why he did what he did.

Correct?

Time and again, I have said this to Shias but it falls upon deaf ears.  Actually, the problem is top down.  You see, the criteria to make a sound judgment (adopted by scholars) is to take all the Qur'anic verses and narrations - regarding a matter - into consideration and then deliver a verdict.  If you read all the authentic narrations regarding the Incident of Pen and Paper, you will find more than one of them not even mention Umar [ra].  Logic dictates that if he was in the middle of creating a scene, his name would not be missing from any of the reports (talking about this incident).  On top of all this, there is not a single report which states that Umar [ra] was the one who used the word "delusional", "delirious" or anything your mind wishes to imagine.

[أبو ماريا المرزم]

So everyone is in agreement that Caliph Umar refused pen/paper saying the Prophet is possibly delusional; only discussion is why he did what he did.

Correct?

Umar Ra said no such thing. And in your sources, Abdullah the son of Ali Ra thought he hadAli Ra) had lost his sense when Ali asked for him to rub his cheek on the ground.

Is he a Nasibi too?

[ShiaMan]

Umar Ra said no such thing.

Calamity of Thursday?
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/58/10
http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/25/29

[أبو ماريا المرزم]

Umar Ra said no such thing.

Calamity of Thursday?
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/58/10
http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/25/29

The narrations you brought up support what I said. The narration didn't specify who asked if he was delirious. Umar Ra was not specified. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ali Ra was present as well, ridht?

[ShiaMan]

Umar Ra said no such thing.

Calamity of Thursday?
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/58/10
http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/25/29

The narrations you brought up support what I said. The narration didn't specify who asked if he was delirious. Umar Ra was not specified. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ali Ra was present as well, ridht?

The fact that Caliph Umar who responded is evident in the hadith.
Another one (albeit different words) - http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/75/30

Are you implying that it could have been Ali who refused? Then why were Caliph Umar and the people with him kicked out? Also this was the last conversation between the Prophet and Caliph Umar.

[أبو ماريا المرزم]

Umar Ra said no such thing.

Calamity of Thursday?
http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/58/10
http://www.sunnah.com/muslim/25/29

The narrations you brought up support what I said. The narration didn't specify who asked if he was delirious. Umar Ra was not specified. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ali Ra was present as well, ridht?

The fact that Caliph Umar who responded is evident in the hadith.
Another one (albeit different words) - http://www.sunnah.com/bukhari/75/30

Are you implying that it could have been Ali who refused? Then why were Caliph Umar and the people with him kicked out? Also this was the last conversation between the Prophet and Caliph Umar.

The point we're trying to prove is that he called him delirious, not that he responded in general. No, I'm asking, if Ali was present, why didn't he do anything? Or was he supposed to stay patient like the broken ribs melodrama?

[Rationalist]

Here is what Ibn Abil Hadeed al Mutazilli wrote on the subject.


ʿUmar’s words and character had an apparent dryness and arrogance. One who heard him interpreted his words in a way different than ʿUmar himself intended. One who narrated from him did so thinking that he actually meant what he said. Among these narrations is the words he said at the time of the Apostle of Allah’s final illness. Refuge is sought with Allah from the assumption that he meant what he apparently said. In factuality, he said those words in congruence with his coarse nature and did not think before saying what he did. It would have been better had he said “unconscious” or “fainted due to illness”. It is impossible that he meant anything else from these words.

[أبو ماريا المرزم]

Would it alright to take the work of the Mu'tazila? They had some hardcore jahmi beliefs

[Hani]

Would it alright to take the work of the Mu'tazila? They had some hardcore jahmi beliefs

Take whatever is useful in anybody's works and dismiss what you believe is falsehood. Apply this to everything.

[Rationalist]

Would it alright to take the work of the Mu'tazila? They had some hardcore jahmi beliefs

They were very fair on history. The 12ers study them and only quote them when it suits their agenda. Then they mix their tabarra in criticism of the sahaba.