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Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir

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Optimus Prime

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #100 on: November 22, 2017, 06:19:42 PM »
Of course, but these new Muslims were not on the same wave lengths as those who accepted Islam earlier, duh! Their Iman was still somewhat weak. This is why the Prophet (SAW) was gifting acres of land to the new Muslims of Makkah.  The Prophet (SAW) used his lineage to restore order on the battlefield. Many of the companions fled after being ambushed unexpectedly. Context my good man!  8)

Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Allah, Most High, has removed from you the pride of the pre-Islamic period and its boasting in ancestors. One is only a pious believer or a miserable sinner. You are sons of Adam, and Adam came from dust. Let the people cease to boast about their ancestors. They are merely fuel in Jahannam; or they will certainly be of less account with Allah than the beetle which rolls dung with its nose.


Grade   : Hasan (Al-Albani)
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 5116
In-book reference : Book 43, Hadith 344
English translation : Book 42, Hadith 5097


You mean to say that Prophet (s.a.w.w) contradicted himself (i.e. see above hadith) just to call back those people who were fleeing. Prophet (s.a.w.w) resorting to jāhilīyah practice proved to be futile as none of those fleeing came back.

I suggest speaking to brother Hani, or Farid for book recommendations, but a crucial point for you to swallow. Shias have NO historical source containing the basic details of the Prophet's (SAW) youth let alone the Seerah.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Brothers Hani & Farid please recommend me book(s) on Sīrat Rasūl Allāh (s.a.w.w). I would like English & Urdu books because being a Pakistani I cannot understand Arabic. However in near future its my ambition to learn Arabic language insha ALLAH (SWT).


Your understanding of Hadith is pitiful. I also recommend you read the commentary of these narrations you hand-pick. The Prophet (SAW) stated a fact, he didn't boast per see about his ancestors. He uttered barely a sentence. Abu Talib was the one who boasted about his lineage which, is why he died a Mushrik!

They did return. What source are you reading, seriously?

(I am the Prophet, not lying! I am the son of Abdul-Muttalib!) There remained between a hundred and eighty Companions with the Prophet . These included Abu Bakr, `Umar, Al-`Abbas, `Ali, Al-Fadl bin `Abbas, Abu Sufyan bin Al-Harith, Ayman the son of Umm Ayman and Usamah bin Zayd. There were many other Companions, may Allah be pleased with them. The Prophet commanded his uncle Al-`Abbas, whose voice was rather loud, to call at the top of his voice, "O Companions of the Samurah ?tree?'' referring to the Muhajirin and Ansar who gave their pledge under the tree during the pledge of Ridwan, not to run away and retreat. He also called, "O Companions of Surat Al-Baqarah.'' Upon hearing that, those heralded started saying, "Here we are! Here we are!'' Muslims started returning in the direction of the Messenger of Allah . If the camel of one of them did not obey him (as the people were rushing to the other direction in flight) he would wear his shield and descend from his camel and rush to the side of the Messenger of Allah on foot. When a large crowd gathered around the Messenger of Allah , he commanded them to fight in sincerity and took a handful of sand and threw it in the faces of the disbelievers, after supplicating to Allah,

Source: ibn Kathir's (RA) tafsir.

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #101 on: November 22, 2017, 07:00:59 PM »
Your understanding of Hadith is pitiful. I also recommend you read the commentary of these narrations you hand-pick. The Prophet (SAW) stated a fact, he didn't boast per see about his ancestors. He uttered barely a sentence. Abu Talib was the one who boasted about his lineage which, is why he died a Mushrik!

The fact that he is son of idol-worshipper at the time when his people were fleeing from battlefield?

First you stated Prophet (s.a.w.w) saying he is son of Abdul-Muttalib was because:

He reminded them of this lineage. Anyone who has studied the Seerah will know, that's how jahaliyah customs worked. By reminding the people of his lineage, and from among his lineage is Abdul Muttalib (the pagan leader), he (SAW) was able to command authority for himself among the new Muslims. How else did Abu Talib protect him (SAW) for so many years against Quraish? With harsh language?  :P

Then you said:

Of course, but these new Muslims were not on the same wave lengths as those who accepted Islam earlier, duh! Their Iman was still somewhat weak. This is why the Prophet (SAW) was gifting acres of land to the new Muslims of Makkah.  The Prophet (SAW) used his lineage to restore order on the battlefield. Many of the companions fled after being ambushed unexpectedly. Context my good man!  8)

And now you are saying that by Prophet (s.a.w.w) saying that he is son of Abdul-Muttalib he didn't boast per see about his ancestors.

They did return. What source are you reading, seriously?

(I am the Prophet, not lying! I am the son of Abdul-Muttalib!) There remained between a hundred and eighty Companions with the Prophet . These included Abu Bakr, `Umar, Al-`Abbas, `Ali, Al-Fadl bin `Abbas, Abu Sufyan bin Al-Harith, Ayman the son of Umm Ayman and Usamah bin Zayd. There were many other Companions, may Allah be pleased with them. The Prophet commanded his uncle Al-`Abbas, whose voice was rather loud, to call at the top of his voice, "O Companions of the Samurah ?tree?'' referring to the Muhajirin and Ansar who gave their pledge under the tree during the pledge of Ridwan, not to run away and retreat. He also called, "O Companions of Surat Al-Baqarah.'' Upon hearing that, those heralded started saying, "Here we are! Here we are!'' Muslims started returning in the direction of the Messenger of Allah . If the camel of one of them did not obey him (as the people were rushing to the other direction in flight) he would wear his shield and descend from his camel and rush to the side of the Messenger of Allah on foot. When a large crowd gathered around the Messenger of Allah , he commanded them to fight in sincerity and took a handful of sand and threw it in the faces of the disbelievers, after supplicating to Allah,

Source: ibn Kathir's (RA) tafsir.

Did the fleeing ones come back on the calling of the Prophet (s.a.w.w) or on the calling of `Abbas?

Wouldn't it be wise if Prophet (s.a.w.w) had just said: I am Prophet in Truth and command his uncle Al-`Abbas to call at the top of his voice to the fleeing ones to come back?

Why did the Prophet (s.a.w.w) say: I am son of Abdul-Muttalib (i.e. son of idol-worshipper)?

Optimus Prime

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #102 on: November 22, 2017, 08:03:34 PM »
'Abbas, although he was quoting the Prophet (SAW).

Abdul Muttalib is the one who had unparalleled prestige in Quriash not his son.

There is no contradicting between my posts. That's just your imagination getting ahead of itself as usual.

He (SAW) reminded the masses of his grandfather with 5 words. You think uttering a small statement like that in the climax of war is tantamount to boasting? If someone runs their mouth about who their ancestors were, how much money they have, the respect they command in the community, and lists their accomplishments - this would be considered boasting in Islam. That's precisely what the Quraish would do, and did before the advent of Islam, and during the Meccan phase.

Being proud of your heritage, and lineage, and making that clear is not boasting as per the Hadith you quoted. The Prophet (SAW) himself states all lineages on the Day of Judgement will count for nothing except his. That's an honour Allah (SWT) has granted him, proclaiming that is permissible.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 08:04:35 PM by Optimus Prime »

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #103 on: November 23, 2017, 04:05:51 PM »
'Abbas, although he was quoting the Prophet (SAW).

Abdul Muttalib is the one who had unparalleled prestige in Quriash not his son.

There is no contradicting between my posts. That's just your imagination getting ahead of itself as usual.

He (SAW) reminded the masses of his grandfather with 5 words. You think uttering a small statement like that in the climax of war is tantamount to boasting? If someone runs their mouth about who their ancestors were, how much money they have, the respect they command in the community, and lists their accomplishments - this would be considered boasting in Islam. That's precisely what the Quraish would do, and did before the advent of Islam, and during the Meccan phase.

Without using my imagination... will you kindly tell me why did Prophet (s.a.w.w) say to the fleeing ones: I am son of 'Abdul-Muttalib? If (as you said in your earlier posts) "by reminding the people of his lineage he (SAW) was able to command authority for himself among the new Muslims" and "The Prophet (SAW) used his lineage to restore order on the battlefield" then I would like to ask a question: Wasn't it more reasonable for the Prophet (s.a.w.w) to call back the fleeing ones by reminding them about GOD by saying: I am Prophet in Truth, Come back for the Sake of GOD rather than reminding them of his polytheistic lineage?

Being proud of your heritage, and lineage, and making that clear is not boasting as per the Hadith you quoted. The Prophet (SAW) himself states all lineages on the Day of Judgement will count for nothing except his. That's an honour Allah (SWT) has granted him, proclaiming that is permissible.

Honor?

Azar (l.a) is father of Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) which means Azar (l.a) is ancestor of Prophet (s.a.w.w). Lets see what honor would Prophet (s.a.w.w) be granted by GOD by making his (s.a.w.w) lineage count:

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 569:

Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Abraham will meet his father Azar whose face will be dark and covered with dust.(The Prophet Abraham will say to him): 'Didn't I tell you not to disobey me?' His father will reply: 'Today I will not disobey you.' 'Abraham will say: 'O Lord! You promised me not to disgrace me on the Day of Resurrection; and what will be more disgraceful to me than cursing and dishonoring my father?' Then Allah will say (to him):' 'I have forbidden Paradise for the disbelievers." Then he will be addressed, 'O Abraham! Look! What is underneath your feet?' He will look and there he will see a Dhabh (an animal,) blood-stained, which will be caught by the legs and thrown in the (Hell) Fire."


According to ibn Kathir, Azar would be transformed into hyena:
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=996

"And invoking for his father's forgiveness was only because of a promise he had made to him. But when it became clear to him that he was an enemy to Allah, he dissociated himself from him. Verily Ibrahim was patient in supplication and forbearing.) ﴿9:114﴾. It was recorded in the Sahih that Ibrahim will meet his father Azar on the Day of Resurrection and Azar will say to him, "My son! This Day, I will not disobey you.'' Ibrahim will say, "O Lord! You promised me not to disgrace me on the Day they are resurrected; and what will be more disgraceful to me than cursing and dishonoring my father'' Then Allah will say, "O Ibrahim! Look behind you!'' He will look and there he will see (that his father was changed into) a male hyena covered in dung, which will be caught by the legs and thrown in the (Hell) Fire.''

Optimus Prime

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #104 on: November 23, 2017, 04:16:44 PM »
Your question has already been answered in this thread more than once.

As, I told you before, refer to the commentaries to understanding the true underlying meaning of narrations, that appear conflicting. Refrain from allowing your internal corrupted nafs to go digging for differing narrations just to purposefully show to all of us how the main narration being scrutinised is unreliable based on your muddled rationale.

My sincere advise to you is to ask the question on HadithAnswers.com. This site is run by schoalrs of Hadith. They will undoubtedly prioritise any question from a Shia.

Ijtaba

Re: Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir
« Reply #105 on: November 23, 2017, 05:10:14 PM »
Your question has already been answered in this thread more than once.

As, I told you before, refer to the commentaries to understanding the true underlying meaning of narrations, that appear conflicting. Refrain from allowing your internal corrupted nafs to go digging for differing narrations just to purposefully show to all of us how the main narration being scrutinised is unreliable based on your muddled rationale.

My sincere advise to you is to ask the question on HadithAnswers.com. This site is run by schoalrs of Hadith. They will undoubtedly prioritise any question from a Shia.

Thanks for the advice.

 

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