Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir

[iceman]

I'm still awaiting for an explanation as to why Abdul Muttalib named his sons after false idols... Anyone else want to take a shot at this?

Why don't you tell us? The main thing is that you believe he was a Kafir and this is the title of your thread. By all means stick to your belief. You also believe that Abu Talib was a kafir and probably believe that the Prophet's (s) parents were Kafir too.

Now my point is you believe Abdul Mutalib was a Kafir, Yeh. What's the definition of a Kafir? Someone who worships idols? Those who worship anyone other than Allah are Mushriks not Kafirs, am I right?

Don't you think that the title of your thread should be,

'SIMPLE PROOF THAT ABDUL MUTALIB WAS A MUSHRIK?

Am I right or wrong?

[Ijtaba]

I have brought proof to you that Abdul Muttalib was a mushrik.

Sorry to say this is one of the weakest proof I have ever seen. A person being called Mushrik because of the names of his two children.

Proof has been established on you that he was a mushrik. He named his sons as slaves of false idols that were worshipped by his people! What more devotion for shirk do you need?! You may deny it all you like with the flimsiest of your excuses.

Please provide authentic evidence from Ahlul Sunnah sources that Abdul-Muttalib (a.s) named Abu Talib (a.s) as Abdul Manaf and Abu Lahab as Abdul Uzza.

There is possibility that like Abdul-Muttalib whose real name was Shaybah ibn Hāshim (a.s) had named Abu Talib as Imran (a.s) and people started calling Abu Talib as Abdul-Manaf like Shaybah was called Abdul-Muttalib. Similar could be said for Abdul Uzza a.k.a., Abū Lahab.

[Farid]

There is possibility that like Abdul-Muttalib whose real name was Shaybah ibn Hāshim (a.s) had named Abu Talib as Imran (a.s) and people started calling Abu Talib as Abdul-Manaf

Someone should tell Shia scholars that then instead of narrating hadiths that Ali said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf and including that in his biography. This was done by Al Saduq, Al Radhi, Ibn Shahrashoub, Mohammad bin Jareer bin Rustum, and even Abu Ali Al Musawi, who is the author of the book "Eman Abi Talib".

I am curious though. Can you provide an early source that states that his name is Imran?

You also said:

Similar could be said for Abdul Uzza a.k.a., Abū Lahab.

What was his "real" name then?

[Ijtaba]

Someone should tell Shia scholars that then instead of narrating hadiths that Ali said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf and including that in his biography. This was done by Al Saduq, Al Radhi, Ibn Shahrashoub, Mohammad bin Jareer bin Rustum, and even Abu Ali Al Musawi, who is the author of the book "Eman Abi Talib".

Could you provide those shi'ite ahadith where Imam Ali (a.s) said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf?

I am curious though. Can you provide an early source that states that his name is Imran?

I haven't read my own books but am planning to read them in near future in sha ALLAH (SWT) and would share relevant information I get regarding the real name of Abu Talib (a.s)

You also said:

Similar could be said for Abdul Uzza a.k.a., Abū Lahab.

What was his "real" name then?

Abu Lahab's real name is Abdul Uzza.

[Ijtaba]

What does authentic Ahlul Sunnah sources say regarding the real name of Abu Talib (a.s)?

[Farid]

Could you provide those shi'ite ahadith where Imam Ali (a.s) said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf?

حدثنا علي بن عيسى المجاور ( رحمه الله ) ، قال : حدثنا علي بن محمد
ابن بندار ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن علي المقري ، عن محمد بن سنان ، عن مالك بن
عطية ، عن ثوير بن سعيد ، عن أبيه سعيد بن علاقة ، عن الحسن البصري ، قال : صعد
أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب ( عليه السلام ) منبر البصرة فقال : أيها الناس ، انسبوني ،
فمن عرفني فلينسبني ، وإلا فأنا أنسب نفسي ، أنا زيد بن عبد مناف بن عامر بن عمرو
ابن المغيرة بن زيد بن كلاب ، فقام إليه ابن الكواء فقال : يا هذا ، ما نعرف لك نسبا غير
أنك علي بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم بن عبد مناف بن قصي بن كلاب .
فقال له : يا لكع ، إن أبي سماني زيدا باسم جده قصي ، وإن اسم أبي عبد مناف
فغلبت الكنية على الاسم ، وإن اسم عبد المطلب عامر فغلب اللقب على الاسم ،
واسم هاشم عمرو فغلب القلب على الاسم ، واسم عبد مناف المغيرة فغلب اللقب
على الاسم ، وإن اسم قصي زيد فسمته العرب مجمعا - لجمعه إياها من البلد الأقصى
إلى مكة - فغلب اللقب على الاسم

This is narrated by Al-Saduq in Al-Amali. Basically, he is saying that his father's name Abdul Manaf.

Abu Al-Faraj Al-Asfahani, who is a Zaydi scholar, said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf. See Maqatil Al-Talibiyeen p. 3.

Mohammad bin Jareer bin Rustum said the same in Dala'il Al-Imamah p. 246.

Ibn Shahrashoub says the same in his Manaqib Aal Abi Talib in his chapter on Al-Taqi.

Abu Lahab's real name is Abdul Uzza.

Thank you for admitting that Abdul Muttalib gave him a shirki name.

[GreatChineseFall]

What evidence do you need exactly?

Evidence like Nabi Ibrahim's (a.s) abi Azar* who is clearly mentioned in al-Quran as worshiping idols. Reports showing that Abdul-Muttalib worshiped idols or other deities besides ALLAH (SWT)

*I believe Nabi Ibrahim's (a.s) ab mentioned in al-Quran was not his (a.s) biological father.

...If you were born and raised in the Vatican City-State in the 10th century and called your sons Abdul-Maseeh and Abdul-Jesus, why would anyone assume that you are a Muslim?

Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was born to Abdullah (a.s) ibn Abdul-Muttalib (a.s). If Abdul-Muttalib and his son Abdullah were Mushriks this would naturally mean Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was Mushrik (Nauzubillah) for 40 years before coming of Revelation!

Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) had lived 40 years before receiving revelations from GOD. In these 40 years... Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) lived with Abdul-Muttalib and his family members. Prophet (s.a.w.w) would had believed, practiced and attended all religious customs, traditions, rituals and ceremonies of Banu Hashim.

Q. Are there any evidences (i.e. authentic Ahlul Sunnah reports) that Prophet (s.a.w.w) kept aloof from all the religious customs, traditions, rituals and ceremonies of Banu Hashim?

This is not the primary reason even if this is what most Shia's respond with. If this was the case then Shia's would have no problem with Abdullah since the Prophet(s.a.w.s) never saw him and was raised by his grandfather and Abu Talib. The reality is that Shia's don't want to "taint" the bloodline of the Prophet and Ali, that is why they claim that Abdullah was Muslim too.

Besides, if that is the issue, who did raise Prophet Ibrahim(a.s.) then, his biological father or his pagan Ab?

[GreatChineseFall]

He gave his sons pagan names:

1) Abu Talib = Abd Manaf. The origin of this name came from the great-great-grandfather of the Prophet (peace be upon him), for he is Mohammad bin Abdullah bin Abdul-Muttalib bin Hashim bin Abd Manaf. The original Abd Manaf was named after the large idol that Abd Manaf served.
 
2) Abu Lahab = Abd Al-Uzza. Al-Uzza was the name of an idol that was worshiped by Quraish in an area called Huradh, north of Makkah.







...awaiting for triggered Shias to start accusing me of hating the Prophet (peace be upon him).

Not to mention that AT LEAST 3 of his sons, Abu Lahab, Abbas and Hamza were kuffaar before the revelation started, if not more. If you are a muwahid and so many of your children disobey you in this, something is wrong either at home or outside.

Darn those drug dealers and indecent TV commercials! Must have been a big problem back then.

[Link]

Salam

I think the traditional stance was they were like the believer that hid his faith in Quran, mention in the Surah "The believer".

However - I think the stance really took place in Shiism - due to ziyarats stating all their ancestry were pure.

There are hadiths showing Islam in it's beginning was supported and existed by only three - Mohammad, Ali, and Khadija.

That would mean Abu Talib didn't support Islam in the beginning.

[Ijtaba]

Could you provide those shi'ite ahadith where Imam Ali (a.s) said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf?

حدثنا علي بن عيسى المجاور ( رحمه الله ) ، قال : حدثنا علي بن محمد
ابن بندار ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن علي المقري ، عن محمد بن سنان ، عن مالك بن
عطية ، عن ثوير بن سعيد ، عن أبيه سعيد بن علاقة ، عن الحسن البصري ، قال : صعد
أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب ( عليه السلام ) منبر البصرة فقال : أيها الناس ، انسبوني ،
فمن عرفني فلينسبني ، وإلا فأنا أنسب نفسي ، أنا زيد بن عبد مناف بن عامر بن عمرو
ابن المغيرة بن زيد بن كلاب ، فقام إليه ابن الكواء فقال : يا هذا ، ما نعرف لك نسبا غير
أنك علي بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم بن عبد مناف بن قصي بن كلاب .
فقال له : يا لكع ، إن أبي سماني زيدا باسم جده قصي ، وإن اسم أبي عبد مناف
فغلبت الكنية على الاسم ، وإن اسم عبد المطلب عامر فغلب اللقب على الاسم ،
واسم هاشم عمرو فغلب القلب على الاسم ، واسم عبد مناف المغيرة فغلب اللقب
على الاسم ، وإن اسم قصي زيد فسمته العرب مجمعا - لجمعه إياها من البلد الأقصى
إلى مكة - فغلب اللقب على الاسم

This is narrated by Al-Saduq in Al-Amali. Basically, he is saying that his father's name Abdul Manaf.

Abu Al-Faraj Al-Asfahani, who is a Zaydi scholar, said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf. See Maqatil Al-Talibiyeen p. 3.

Mohammad bin Jareer bin Rustum said the same in Dala'il Al-Imamah p. 246.

Ibn Shahrashoub says the same in his Manaqib Aal Abi Talib in his chapter on Al-Taqi.

What is the authenticity of the hadith? Also are there any more ahadith besides this hadith?

I believe Abu Talib's real name to be Imran (a.s). However I do not deny Abu Talib (a.s) being called ‘Abd Manāf as his (a.s) great grand-father al Mughirah ibn Quṣai was also called ‘Abd Manāf.

Abu Lahab's real name is Abdul Uzza.

Thank you for admitting that Abdul Muttalib gave him a shirki name.

If Abdul-Muttalib (a.s) was Mushrik for giving Abū Lahab shirki name then I guess Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) who was born in Mushrik's house, had Mushrik parents, had being brought-up by Mushrik grand-father and Mushrik uncles and lived with them would had been definitely a Mushrik for 40 years before receiving Prophethood! (Nauzubillah)

Again to back-up with evidence of what I said above I give following hadith:

The Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w) said, "No baby is born but upon Fitra (as a Muslim). It is his parents who make him a Jew or a Christian or a Polytheist." (Sahih Muslim, Book 033, Number 6426)

A Mushrik grandparent who gave shirki names to his two children would had definitely made his grandson into Mushrik like himself and had raised him in such a way as to become a true Mushrik.

[Farid]

If Abdul-Muttalib (a.s) was Mushrik for giving Abū Lahab shirki name then I guess Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) who was born in Mushrik's house, had Mushrik parents, had being brought-up by Mushrik grand-father and Mushrik uncles and lived with them would had been definitely a Mushrik for 40 years before receiving Prophethood! (Nauzubillah)

Brother, it seems that I have struck a cord and you have thrown your objectivity out the window. Please avoid emotional argumentation.

You know very well that there are people that leave their religions of their families  even before attaining puberty. So you should avoid attacking a strawman by suggesting thay the Sunni view is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was a mushrik for forty years.

If I were you, I would rather come up with a valid reason why Abdul Muttalib named his son(s) after a false deity that was actively being worshipped at the time.

Since you asked, the narration that I shared is weak according to Shia Rijal. However, your scholars still accepted that his name was Abdul Manaf.

[Ijtaba]

Brother, it seems that I have struck a cord and you have thrown your objectivity out the window. Please avoid emotional argumentation.

I only wrote what Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) stated in hadith which I gave as evidence for my claim i.e. Parents raise their children according to their own religion, views, ideologies.

You know very well that there are people that leave their religions of their families  even before attaining puberty. So you should avoid attacking a strawman by suggesting thay the Sunni view is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was a mushrik for forty years.

True. However, people who leave the religion of their families are boycotted and are given cold-shoulder by their loved-ones/relatives.

Reading Seerah and authentic reports of Ahlul Sunnah I have not found Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) being boycotted or abandoned by his family members before proclaiming his (s.a.w.w) Prophethood. Instead I find opposite reports such as Abū Lahab (the Mushrik) marrying his two Mushrik sons with Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) two daughters. Seems like Prophet's (s.a.w.w) Mushrik uncle and relatives were quiet happy with Prophet (s.a.w.w) religion before Waḥy coming on Prophet (s.a.w.w) because after proclamation of Prophethood Abū Lahab (the Mushrik) ordered his two Mushrik sons to divorce Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) two daughters based on difference in religion.

If I were you, I would rather come up with a valid reason why Abdul Muttalib named his son(s) after a false deity that was actively being worshipped at the time.

I can't come up with valid reason is due to my lack of research/study. In near future I will be researching topics related to Prophet's (s.a.w.w) ancestry in sha ALLAH (SWT).

Since you asked, the narration that I shared is weak according to Shia Rijal. However, your scholars still accepted that his name was Abdul Manaf.

I would quote myself again.

I believe Abu Talib's real name to be Imran (a.s). However I do not deny Abu Talib (a.s) being called ‘Abd Manāf as his (a.s) great grand-father al Mughirah ibn Quṣai was also called ‘Abd Manāf.

[Farid]

Again, you make false assumptions to make sense out of your view. Allow me to show you where you went wrong.
 
You argued that since Abdul Muttalib was a mushrik then his children would be mushrik.
You argued that since his children were mushrik, then the Prophet (peace be upon him) would be mushrik.
You also argued that since he was brought up in a shirk-infested household, then he would be upon shirk until receiving the revelation.

These points are all silly and are not worth responding to.

However, people who leave the religion of their families are boycotted and are given cold-shoulder by their loved-ones/relatives.

You are incorrect and you need proof for this. Jahili society consisted of non-pagans muwahideen, rejectors of the idols that did not hold a specific religion, and those that followed Abrahamic faiths. These people inter-married and lived in the same society with persecution. Go through the relevant chapters of Al-Mufassal fi Tareekh Al-Arab qabl Al-Islam.

I do not think I will be engaging with you on this topic since you keep making such weak excuses that are driven by your biases. I have brought forth a simple point which you are attempting desperately to refute with false cause fallacies.

[Abu Muhammad]

True. However, people who leave the religion of their families are boycotted and are given cold-shoulder by their loved-ones/relatives.

Reading Seerah and authentic reports of Ahlul Sunnah I have not found Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) being boycotted or abandoned by his family members before proclaiming his (s.a.w.w) Prophethood. Instead I find opposite reports such as Abū Lahab (the Mushrik) marrying his two Mushrik sons with Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) two daughters. Seems like Prophet's (s.a.w.w) Mushrik uncle and relatives were quiet happy with Prophet (s.a.w.w) religion before Waḥy coming on Prophet (s.a.w.w) because after proclamation of Prophethood Abū Lahab (the Mushrik) ordered his two Mushrik sons to divorce Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) two daughters based on difference in religion.

@Ijtaba,

Sorry to say that your reading is incomplete. How could you equate being prosecuted (boycotted or abandoned by ones family members or got cold-shoulder by loved-ones/relatives, etc.) as a sign someones holding to tawheed and absence of prosecution as a sign that someones accepting the shirki religion of Qurasy? They are totally unrelated.

To make my point clearer, can you tell me what sort of procecution received by Rasulullah (saw) or his followers who left the religion of their families during the secret (or private) phase of da'wah i.e. the first 3 years after revelation started? Please show me evidences, if you have any.

If there were none, by your reasoning up there, the muslims (including Rasulullah (saw) himself) must still be practicing shirki rituals of Quraisy during those 3 years then since they were not prosecuted. How weird that sound, huh?

[Link]

I researched into the words originally meant:

Manaf : Highly Elevated/Great.

Uzza:  Great in Strength.

How do we know they didn't intend God by this if the word "Abd" meant Worshiper?

If they intended a servant of God that is they were servants of a servant of God, how do we know they didn't intend the likes of Mohammad and they didn't intend worship but being a servant of?

[Farid]

How do we know they didn't intend God by this if the word "Abd" meant Worshiper?

First of all, Al Uzza and Manaf are not names of Allah. Secondly, Abdul Muttalib had so many names to choose from if he intended Allah, but he specifically chose the names of idols that were falsely worshipped by his people.

[Link]

How do we know they didn't intend God by this if the word "Abd" meant Worshiper?

First of all, Al Uzza and Manaf are not names of Allah.

But they seem in meaning to be. So how do you know?

Secondly, Abdul Muttalib had so many names to choose from if he intended Allah, but he specifically chose the names of idols that were falsely worshipped by his people.

If they were known to be Muwahids, it would be stating that these names belong to God. That the false ancient deities have also names that can be applied to God.

So it could have been said in this spirit, to say, we worship one God and all the names you have for your idols are best applied to God and he is more worthy of them.

[Ijtaba]

@Ijtaba,

Sorry to say that your reading is incomplete. How could you equate being prosecuted (boycotted or abandoned by ones family members or got cold-shoulder by loved-ones/relatives, etc.) as a sign someones holding to tawheed and absence of prosecution as a sign that someones accepting the shirki religion of Qurasy? They are totally unrelated.

You asked me how did I equate being persecuted as a sign that someone holding to Tawheed and absence of persecution as a sign that someone accepting the shirki religion of Quraysh. And my answer would be:

Looking at Seerah and Tarikh I find that before proclamation of Prophethood... Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was well-known as Amin (أمين) and Sadiq (صادق) by his people. However after proclamation of Prophethood his (s.a.w.w) own people who used to call him Amin (أمين) and Sadiq (صادق) started calling him liar, madman, magician, etc (Nauzubillah). Even his (s.a.w.w) own uncle Abū Lahab became angry with him (s.a.w.w) and denounced him. Abū Lahab also decided to end the marriages of his two sons to Prophet (s.a.w.w) two daughters. Reason for ending marriages was due to Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) proclaiming and calling people towards Tawheed.

I ask why were Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) and his followers (i.e. Muhajirun) persecuted by their own family/tribe/people in the early stage of Islam? Why was there severe persecution that Prophet (s.a.w.w) and his followers had to leave their houses/families and migrate to Madīnah? Why had Quraysh boycotted Banu Hashim?

To make my point clearer, can you tell me what sort of procecution received by Rasulullah (saw) or his followers who left the religion of their families during the secret (or private) phase of da'wah i.e. the first 3 years after revelation started? Please show me evidences, if you have any.

Why was it secret (or private) dawah in the first place? Was it secret (or private) due to fear of persecution from Quraysh?

Persecution from Quraysh started when the Prophet (s.a.w.w) was ordered to proclaim openly the message of Islam. Quraysh which was inflicted with Paganism/Polytheist beliefs did not accept the message of Islam warm-heartedly.

If there were none, by your reasoning up there, the muslims (including Rasulullah (saw) himself) must still be practicing shirki rituals of Quraisy during those 3 years then since they were not prosecuted. How weird that sound, huh?

So what happened after those 3 years when the muslims (including Rasulullah (saw) himself) started practicing Islam openly? Were persecution then also none?

[Ijtaba]

I have a question.

Who named Prophet (s.a.w.w) as Mohammed? Who gave this name to Prophet (s.a.w.w) on his birth? And why was he (s.a.w.w) named Mohammed as this was unusual name in Arabia?

I guess  'Abdul-Muṭṭalib (a.s) did not name him (s.a.w.w.) Mohammed because he would had definitely given him pagan name like his two sons Abd Manāf and Abd al-'Uzzá.

[Abu Muhammad]

@Ijtaba

I'm asking you to provide evidence for any prosecution exerted by musyrik Quraish onto Rasulullah (saw) and his followers for the first 3 years but didn't bring any.

You asked me how did I equate being persecuted as a sign that someone holding to Tawheed and absence of persecution as a sign that someone accepting the shirki religion of Quraysh. And my answer would be:

Looking at Seerah and Tarikh I find that before proclamation of Prophethood... Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was well-known as Amin (أمين) and Sadiq (صادق) by his people. However after proclamation of Prophethood his (s.a.w.w) own people who used to call him Amin (أمين) and Sadiq (صادق) started calling him liar, madman, magician, etc (Nauzubillah). Even his (s.a.w.w) own uncle Abū Lahab became angry with him (s.a.w.w) and denounced him. Abū Lahab also decided to end the marriages of his two sons to Prophet (s.a.w.w) two daughters. Reason for ending marriages was due to Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) proclaiming and calling people towards Tawheed.

I ask you: when was those prosecution you mentioned above started?
                                         

I ask why were Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) and his followers (i.e. Muhajirun) persecuted by their own family/tribe/people in the early stage of Islam? Why was there severe persecution that Prophet (s.a.w.w) and his followers had to leave their houses/families and migrate to Madīnah? Why had Quraysh boycotted Banu Hashim?

I ask you again: when was those prosecution you mentioned above started?

Why was it secret (or private) dawah in the first place? Was it secret (or private) due to fear of persecution from Quraysh?

Persecution from Quraysh started when the Prophet (s.a.w.w) was ordered to proclaim openly the message of Islam. Quraysh which was inflicted with Paganism/Polytheist beliefs did not accept the message of Islam warm-heartedly.

There you go. The answer finally came out. They were all started after Rasulullah (saw) openly proclaimed the message of Islam. And I add further, challenging the beliefs of Quraisy as well.

So what happened after those 3 years when the muslims (including Rasulullah (saw) himself) started practicing Islam openly? Were persecution then also none?

No need for me to answer. You have already answered it as above.

TO SUM UP:
WHEN YOU STARTED TO OPENLY PROCLAIM YOUR MESSAGE AND THAT MESSAGE CHALLENGES THE BELIEFS OF OTHERS, EXPECT OPPOSITION. IF YOU KEEP YOUR BELIEF TO YOUR OWN AND REFRAIN FROM MEDDLING OTHER PEOPLE BUSINESS, NOBODY WILL TOUCH YOU.

It's not hard to understand at all.

To add further, there were those who were not on the religion of musyrikin Quraisy before the start of Nubuwwah of Muhammad (saw). These people were called hunafa' (those who were on the path of the religion of Ibrahim (as)). 4 of them were the most famous:
       
1. Waraqa Ibn Naufal
2. Ubaidillah Ibn Jash
3. Uthmaan ibn Al-Huwayrith
4. Zayd Ibn Amar Ibn Nufayl

Out these 4, only Zayd Ibn Amar Ibn Nufayl had problem with his tribe. Because why? Because he was vocal in critizing the belief of musyrikin Quraisy. The rest, nobody touched.

AKHIRUL KALAM:
PROSECUTION GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU BELIEF IF YOU KEEP IT TO YOUR OWN SELF. WHEN YOU STARTED OPENLY PREACHING AND AT THE SAME TIME CHALLENGING OTHER PEOPLE BELIEFS THEN YOU COULD EXPECT RETALIATION (IN THIS CASE, PROSECUTION).