Are you saying the biggest evidence that `Abdul-Muttalib was a pagan polytheist is because he literally named his son "Slave of (the idol) Manaf" ?
Hmmm... :p
How about abu Talib then? His name is "Slave of the idol".
Of course they can. My first name is very christian and would have to be changed as a Muslim. It would be odd to be Muslim and have a name which implies servitude to something other than Allah, no?
He gave his sons pagan names:
1) Abu Talib = Abd Manaf. The origin of this name came from the great-great-grandfather of the Prophet (peace be upon him), for he is Mohammad bin Abdullah bin Abdul-Muttalib bin Hashim bin Abd Manaf. The original Abd Manaf was named after the large idol that Abd Manaf served.
2) Abu Lahab = Abd Al-Uzza. Al-Uzza was the name of an idol that was worshiped by Quraish in an area called Huradh, north of Makkah.
A mushrik is someone that takes false idols along with Allah.
Abdul Muttalib worshipped Allah, Manaf, and Al Uzza.
A mushrik is someone that takes false idols along with Allah.
Abdul Muttalib worshipped Allah, Manaf, and Al Uzza.
Are there any authentic Ahlul Sunnah reports showing that Abdul-Muttalib worshiped Manaf and al-Uzza?
What evidence do you need exactly?
...If you were born and raised in the Vatican City-State in the 10th century and called your sons Abdul-Maseeh and Abdul-Jesus, why would anyone assume that you are a Muslim?
Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was born to Abdullah (a.s) ibn Abdul-Muttalib (a.s). If Abdul-Muttalib and his son Abdullah were Mushriks this would naturally mean Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was Mushrik (Nauzubillah) for 40 years before coming of Revelation!
You may deny it all you like with the flimsiest of your excuses.
He gave his sons pagan names:
1) Abu Talib = Abd Manaf. The origin of this name came from the great-great-grandfather of the Prophet (peace be upon him), for he is Mohammad bin Abdullah bin Abdul-Muttalib bin Hashim bin Abd Manaf. The original Abd Manaf was named after the large idol that Abd Manaf served.
2) Abu Lahab = Abd Al-Uzza. Al-Uzza was the name of an idol that was worshiped by Quraish in an area called Huradh, north of Makkah.
...awaiting for triggered Shias to start accusing me of hating the Prophet (peace be upon him).
First of all starting another thread with another subject and by running away from the previous thread and subject. What's the logic in this or the reason behind. What, had enough of discussing Saqifa?
Anyways I will give you a simple answer. Abu Talib was a disbeliever, Yeh? And he died as a disbeliever, Yeh? Ok. Mine and your beloved Prophet (s) was raised/brought up by a total and absolute disbeliever, Yeh?
QuoteFirst of all starting another thread with another subject and by running away from the previous thread and subject. What's the logic in this or the reason behind. What, had enough of discussing Saqifa?
Running away from what exactly? I don't recall participating in a Saqifa thread recently. Are you confusing me with someone else?QuoteAnyways I will give you a simple answer. Abu Talib was a disbeliever, Yeh? And he died as a disbeliever, Yeh? Ok. Mine and your beloved Prophet (s) was raised/brought up by a total and absolute disbeliever, Yeh?
See thread title. This topic is about Abdul Muttalib who named his sons after false gods.
I'm still awaiting for an explanation as to why Abdul Muttalib named his sons after false idols... Anyone else want to take a shot at this?
I have brought proof to you that Abdul Muttalib was a mushrik.
Proof has been established on you that he was a mushrik. He named his sons as slaves of false idols that were worshipped by his people! What more devotion for shirk do you need?! You may deny it all you like with the flimsiest of your excuses.
There is possibility that like Abdul-Muttalib whose real name was Shaybah ibn Hāshim (a.s) had named Abu Talib as Imran (a.s) and people started calling Abu Talib as Abdul-Manaf
Similar could be said for Abdul Uzza a.k.a., Abū Lahab.
Someone should tell Shia scholars that then instead of narrating hadiths that Ali said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf and including that in his biography. This was done by Al Saduq, Al Radhi, Ibn Shahrashoub, Mohammad bin Jareer bin Rustum, and even Abu Ali Al Musawi, who is the author of the book "Eman Abi Talib".
I am curious though. Can you provide an early source that states that his name is Imran?
You also said:QuoteSimilar could be said for Abdul Uzza a.k.a., Abū Lahab.What was his "real" name then?
Could you provide those shi'ite ahadith where Imam Ali (a.s) said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf?
Abu Lahab's real name is Abdul Uzza.
What evidence do you need exactly?
Evidence like Nabi Ibrahim's (a.s) abi Azar* who is clearly mentioned in al-Quran as worshiping idols. Reports showing that Abdul-Muttalib worshiped idols or other deities besides ALLAH (SWT)
*I believe Nabi Ibrahim's (a.s) ab mentioned in al-Quran was not his (a.s) biological father....If you were born and raised in the Vatican City-State in the 10th century and called your sons Abdul-Maseeh and Abdul-Jesus, why would anyone assume that you are a Muslim?
Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was born to Abdullah (a.s) ibn Abdul-Muttalib (a.s). If Abdul-Muttalib and his son Abdullah were Mushriks this would naturally mean Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was Mushrik (Nauzubillah) for 40 years before coming of Revelation!
Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) had lived 40 years before receiving revelations from GOD. In these 40 years... Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) lived with Abdul-Muttalib and his family members. Prophet (s.a.w.w) would had believed, practiced and attended all religious customs, traditions, rituals and ceremonies of Banu Hashim.
Q. Are there any evidences (i.e. authentic Ahlul Sunnah reports) that Prophet (s.a.w.w) kept aloof from all the religious customs, traditions, rituals and ceremonies of Banu Hashim?
He gave his sons pagan names:
1) Abu Talib = Abd Manaf. The origin of this name came from the great-great-grandfather of the Prophet (peace be upon him), for he is Mohammad bin Abdullah bin Abdul-Muttalib bin Hashim bin Abd Manaf. The original Abd Manaf was named after the large idol that Abd Manaf served.
2) Abu Lahab = Abd Al-Uzza. Al-Uzza was the name of an idol that was worshiped by Quraish in an area called Huradh, north of Makkah.
...awaiting for triggered Shias to start accusing me of hating the Prophet (peace be upon him).
Quote from: IjtabaCould you provide those shi'ite ahadith where Imam Ali (a.s) said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf?
حدثنا علي بن عيسى المجاور ( رحمه الله ) ، قال : حدثنا علي بن محمد
ابن بندار ، عن أبيه ، عن محمد بن علي المقري ، عن محمد بن سنان ، عن مالك بن
عطية ، عن ثوير بن سعيد ، عن أبيه سعيد بن علاقة ، عن الحسن البصري ، قال : صعد
أمير المؤمنين علي بن أبي طالب ( عليه السلام ) منبر البصرة فقال : أيها الناس ، انسبوني ،
فمن عرفني فلينسبني ، وإلا فأنا أنسب نفسي ، أنا زيد بن عبد مناف بن عامر بن عمرو
ابن المغيرة بن زيد بن كلاب ، فقام إليه ابن الكواء فقال : يا هذا ، ما نعرف لك نسبا غير
أنك علي بن أبي طالب بن عبد المطلب بن هاشم بن عبد مناف بن قصي بن كلاب .
فقال له : يا لكع ، إن أبي سماني زيدا باسم جده قصي ، وإن اسم أبي عبد مناف
فغلبت الكنية على الاسم ، وإن اسم عبد المطلب عامر فغلب اللقب على الاسم ،
واسم هاشم عمرو فغلب القلب على الاسم ، واسم عبد مناف المغيرة فغلب اللقب
على الاسم ، وإن اسم قصي زيد فسمته العرب مجمعا - لجمعه إياها من البلد الأقصى
إلى مكة - فغلب اللقب على الاسم
This is narrated by Al-Saduq in Al-Amali. Basically, he is saying that his father's name Abdul Manaf.
Abu Al-Faraj Al-Asfahani, who is a Zaydi scholar, said that his father's name is Abdul Manaf. See Maqatil Al-Talibiyeen p. 3.
Mohammad bin Jareer bin Rustum said the same in Dala'il Al-Imamah p. 246.
Ibn Shahrashoub says the same in his Manaqib Aal Abi Talib in his chapter on Al-Taqi.
Quote from: IjtabaAbu Lahab's real name is Abdul Uzza.
Thank you for admitting that Abdul Muttalib gave him a shirki name.
If Abdul-Muttalib (a.s) was Mushrik for giving Abū Lahab shirki name then I guess Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) who was born in Mushrik's house, had Mushrik parents, had being brought-up by Mushrik grand-father and Mushrik uncles and lived with them would had been definitely a Mushrik for 40 years before receiving Prophethood! (Nauzubillah)
Brother, it seems that I have struck a cord and you have thrown your objectivity out the window. Please avoid emotional argumentation.
You know very well that there are people that leave their religions of their families even before attaining puberty. So you should avoid attacking a strawman by suggesting thay the Sunni view is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was a mushrik for forty years.
If I were you, I would rather come up with a valid reason why Abdul Muttalib named his son(s) after a false deity that was actively being worshipped at the time.
Since you asked, the narration that I shared is weak according to Shia Rijal. However, your scholars still accepted that his name was Abdul Manaf.
I believe Abu Talib's real name to be Imran (a.s). However I do not deny Abu Talib (a.s) being called ‘Abd Manāf as his (a.s) great grand-father al Mughirah ibn Quṣai was also called ‘Abd Manāf.
However, people who leave the religion of their families are boycotted and are given cold-shoulder by their loved-ones/relatives.
True. However, people who leave the religion of their families are boycotted and are given cold-shoulder by their loved-ones/relatives.
Reading Seerah and authentic reports of Ahlul Sunnah I have not found Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) being boycotted or abandoned by his family members before proclaiming his (s.a.w.w) Prophethood. Instead I find opposite reports such as Abū Lahab (the Mushrik) marrying his two Mushrik sons with Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) two daughters. Seems like Prophet's (s.a.w.w) Mushrik uncle and relatives were quiet happy with Prophet (s.a.w.w) religion before Waḥy coming on Prophet (s.a.w.w) because after proclamation of Prophethood Abū Lahab (the Mushrik) ordered his two Mushrik sons to divorce Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) two daughters based on difference in religion.
How do we know they didn't intend God by this if the word "Abd" meant Worshiper?
QuoteHow do we know they didn't intend God by this if the word "Abd" meant Worshiper?
First of all, Al Uzza and Manaf are not names of Allah.
Secondly, Abdul Muttalib had so many names to choose from if he intended Allah, but he specifically chose the names of idols that were falsely worshipped by his people.
@Ijtaba,
Sorry to say that your reading is incomplete. How could you equate being prosecuted (boycotted or abandoned by ones family members or got cold-shoulder by loved-ones/relatives, etc.) as a sign someones holding to tawheed and absence of prosecution as a sign that someones accepting the shirki religion of Qurasy? They are totally unrelated.
To make my point clearer, can you tell me what sort of procecution received by Rasulullah (saw) or his followers who left the religion of their families during the secret (or private) phase of da'wah i.e. the first 3 years after revelation started? Please show me evidences, if you have any.
If there were none, by your reasoning up there, the muslims (including Rasulullah (saw) himself) must still be practicing shirki rituals of Quraisy during those 3 years then since they were not prosecuted. How weird that sound, huh?
You asked me how did I equate being persecuted as a sign that someone holding to Tawheed and absence of persecution as a sign that someone accepting the shirki religion of Quraysh. And my answer would be:
Looking at Seerah and Tarikh I find that before proclamation of Prophethood... Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was well-known as Amin (أمين) and Sadiq (صادق) by his people. However after proclamation of Prophethood his (s.a.w.w) own people who used to call him Amin (أمين) and Sadiq (صادق) started calling him liar, madman, magician, etc (Nauzubillah). Even his (s.a.w.w) own uncle Abū Lahab became angry with him (s.a.w.w) and denounced him. Abū Lahab also decided to end the marriages of his two sons to Prophet (s.a.w.w) two daughters. Reason for ending marriages was due to Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) proclaiming and calling people towards Tawheed.
I ask why were Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) and his followers (i.e. Muhajirun) persecuted by their own family/tribe/people in the early stage of Islam? Why was there severe persecution that Prophet (s.a.w.w) and his followers had to leave their houses/families and migrate to Madīnah? Why had Quraysh boycotted Banu Hashim?
Why was it secret (or private) dawah in the first place? Was it secret (or private) due to fear of persecution from Quraysh?
Persecution from Quraysh started when the Prophet (s.a.w.w) was ordered to proclaim openly the message of Islam. Quraysh which was inflicted with Paganism/Polytheist beliefs did not accept the message of Islam warm-heartedly.
So what happened after those 3 years when the muslims (including Rasulullah (saw) himself) started practicing Islam openly? Were persecution then also none?
@Ijtaba
I'm asking you to provide evidence for any prosecution exerted by musyrik Quraish onto Rasulullah (saw) and his followers for the first 3 years but didn't bring any.
I ask you: when was those prosecution you mentioned above started?
I ask you again: when was those prosecution you mentioned above started?
There you go. The answer finally came out. They were all started after Rasulullah (saw) openly proclaimed the message of Islam. And I add further, challenging the beliefs of Quraisy as well.
No need for me to answer. You have already answered it as above.
TO SUM UP:
WHEN YOU STARTED TO OPENLY PROCLAIM YOUR MESSAGE AND THAT MESSAGE CHALLENGES THE BELIEFS OF OTHERS, EXPECT OPPOSITION. IF YOU KEEP YOUR BELIEF TO YOUR OWN AND REFRAIN FROM MEDDLING OTHER PEOPLE BUSINESS, NOBODY WILL TOUCH YOU.
It's not hard to understand at all.
AKHIRUL KALAM:
PROSECUTION GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT YOU BELIEF IF YOU KEEP IT TO YOUR OWN SELF. WHEN YOU STARTED OPENLY PREACHING AND AT THE SAME TIME CHALLENGING OTHER PEOPLE BELIEFS THEN YOU COULD EXPECT RETALIATION (IN THIS CASE, PROSECUTION).
Sorry to say that your reading is incomplete. How could you equate being prosecuted (boycotted or abandoned by ones family members or got cold-shoulder by loved-ones/relatives, etc.) as a sign someones holding to tawheed and absence of prosecution as a sign that someones accepting the shirki religion of Qurasy? They are totally unrelated.
To add further, there were those who were not on the religion of musyrikin Quraisy before the start of Nubuwwah of Muhammad (saw). These people were called hunafa' (those who were on the path of the religion of Ibrahim (as)). 4 of them were the most famous:
1. Waraqa Ibn Naufal
2. Ubaidillah Ibn Jash
3. Uthmaan ibn Al-Huwayrith
4. Zayd Ibn Amar Ibn Nufayl
Out these 4, only Zayd Ibn Amar Ibn Nufayl had problem with his tribe. Because why? Because he was vocal in critizing the belief of musyrikin Quraisy. The rest, nobody touched.
The only thing which I can't understand is how can a person live 40 years having a belief opposed & different to his own parents, family members, clan, tribe without anyone having a hint of his contrary belief?
Whenever a child is born there is some rituals, traditions, customs associated with new-born baby. For e.g. in Islamic society there is Adhan given in new-born's ear, male child is circumcised and there is `Aqīqah for new born baby. Pagan society they have their own rituals and traditions which involve invoking their pagan gods to bless the new born child and sacrificing offerings in the name of pagan gods to save their child from all harmful & evil things. As Prophet (s.a.w.w) was born in Mushrik household where his grandfather 'Abdul-Muṭṭalib (a.s), mother Bibi Aminah bint Wahb (s.a), uncles Abū Ṭālib and 'Abd al-'Uzzā were Mushriks so they would had naturally performed pagan rituals for their new born baby. Similar would be the case with Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) sons and daughters who were born prior to Waḥy (وحي). Pagan rituals would had been performed on their births and false idols would had been invoked for blessing them.
This could be said for every event a person has in his life. Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) lived in Jāhilīyah society for 40 years. He could not had remained isolated for 40 years. In Jāhilīyah period Prophet's (s.a.w.w) own people i.e. Quraysh were involved in praying to false gods, eating sacrificial meals offered to false gods, going around the Ka'bah nude, singing and dancing, drinking alcohol, burying their daughters, enslaving people, forcing their slaves into prostitution, etc.
Its strange that Prophet's (s.a.w.w) parents, grand-parents, uncles and cousins were all involved in shirki and jāhilīyah activities whereas somehow due to unknown reason(s) Prophet (s.a.w.w) remained aloof from those activities.
As for Zayd ibn Amr then yes he was vocal in criticizing the belief of mushrikūn Quraysh and did not observe taqiyyah unlike Prophet (s.a.w.w) who kept his monotheistic belief hidden for 40 years.
.........
.........
This declaration of Zayd shows that Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) monotheistic belief was not known to Quraysh[/b] as I guess Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) was observing taqiyyah at that time. Zayd had been harassed by Qurayshi people so severely that Zayd was forced to leave the city and was always driven out from his city whenever he returned in secret. No one helped Zayd during times of his persecution. No one came to his aid and before he reached Mecca, in the country of Lakhm, he was murdered.
It was intresting to see how you posed a question and several paragraphs below, you answered it yourself (at least in accordance to your believe):
As for me, the presence of hunafa' who lived without engaging in any of musyrik rituals shows that the kind of life you claimed hard to understand is very much possible. Regardless they became Christians later or not, the point is that their belief is different from the musyrikin Quraisy.
Moreover, have you ever heard any of the musyrik Quraisy said to him (saw), during his (saw) prophetic mission, something like, "why do you against the religion you once practiced" or "why do you opposed gods that you once worshipped?"?
The answer is none.
^ So Abu Lahab was upon monotheism but became a polytheist when his nephew became a prophet?
You said he was content with his nephew's religion, so I assumed you meant that he was upon a similar path.
Of course there are evidences in the Seerah. However, that won't fly with Ijtaba who has already made his mind. When the person you are being with is not being reasonable then the conversation is over.
Absolutely.
Both of em' will be in the fire of Jahanam, and deservedly so.
Yazid is better than both of em'.
Absolutely.
Both of em' will be in the fire of Jahanam, and deservedly so.
Yazid is better than both of em'.
So when it comes to Abu Talib, you believe that your Prophetwas raised/brought up by a kafir, a jahanami? You really need to get your faith and belief in order. My advice, go and do some homework!
What about following specific narration:
Wathila b. al-Asqa' reported:
I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Verily Allah granted eminence to Kinana from amongst the descendants of Isma'il, and he granted eminence to the Quraish amongst Kinana, and he granted eminence to Banu Hashim amonsgst the Quraish, and he granted me eminence from the tribe of Banu Hashim.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 2276
In-book reference : Book 43, Hadith 1
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 30, Hadith 5653باب فَضْلِ نَسَبِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَتَسْلِيمِ الْحَجَرِ عَلَيْهِ قَبْلَ النُّبُوَّةِ
- Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj al-Naysaburi has written this ḥadīth under following chapter:
Chapter: The Superiority Of The Prophet's Lineage, And The Stone That Greeted Him Before His Prophethood
It is noteworthy that the Arabic text of the above ḥadīth states that ALLAH (SWT) اصْطَفَى Kinana amongst the descendants of Isma'il, and HE (SWT) اصْطَفَى Quraish amongst Kinana, and HE (SWT) اصْطَفَى Banu Hashim amonsgst the Quraish, and HE (SWT) اصْطَفَى me from the tribe of Banu Hashim
For what purpose would ALLAH (SWT) choose (اصْطَفَى) Mushrik Kinana, Mushrik Quraysh, Mushrikūn Banū Hāshim and Mu'min Moħammed (s.a.w.w)?
Abu Talib did not deviate from the righteous path. Allah chose him to be one of the custodians of the Kaaba, the protector of the House of God. In Surat Al-Baqara, verse 124, it states that:
“When Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them, Allah said, Indeed, I will make you a leader [Imam] for the people. Abraham said, And of my descendants? Allah said, My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.”
Where did I say that Abu Lahab is Muslim?
In fact I had provided three authentic Ahlul Sunnah ahadiths which is in agreement with what you are saying.
All I am asking is that for what purpose did GOD choose Pagans/Polytheists i.e. Kinana, Quraysh & Children of Hashim together with Believer i.e. Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w)?
Abu Talib did not deviate from the righteous path. Allah chose him to be one of the custodians of the Kaaba, the protector of the House of God. In Surat Al-Baqara, verse 124, it states that:
“When Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them, Allah said, Indeed, I will make you a leader [Imam] for the people. Abraham said, And of my descendants? Allah said, My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.”
Abu Talib rejected the true path on multiple occasions.
Provide me with one piece of proof from your own sources, that Abu Talib accepted Islam, or indicates that he did. Don't pluck out Qur'anic verses, and throw your own flavorist twist to it.
I bet you can't provide even one since you rely on our historical sources to study the history of the Prophet (SAW), namely ibn Ishaq, ibn Sa'd, and al-Tabari! ;D
Abu Talib did not deviate from the righteous path. Allah chose him to be one of the custodians of the Kaaba, the protector of the House of God. In Surat Al-Baqara, verse 124, it states that:
“When Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them, Allah said, Indeed, I will make you a leader [Imam] for the people. Abraham said, And of my descendants? Allah said, My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.”
Abu Talib rejected the true path on multiple occasions.
Provide me with one piece of proof from your own sources, that Abu Talib accepted Islam, or indicates that he did. Don't pluck out Qur'anic verses, and throw your own flavorist twist to it.
I bet you can't provide even one since you rely on our historical sources to study the history of the Prophet (SAW), namely ibn Ishaq, ibn Sa'd, and al-Tabari! ;D
I do not rely on your books because your books are also full of mumbos and jumbos. Heard of Salman Rushdie and his book, Satanic Verses? Most material he took was from your books. Bravo, nice one. You talk about proof so lets start off with sense and logic, ever heard of them? I am sure you have. Then will move on. How was the final Messengerraised? How was he brought up and in what kind of environment? This is the greatest Messenger of all. Do not be scared or afraid to answer or to get in to a discussion. Come on, lets hear it. :)
No doubt, ALLAH (SWT) clearly states that Azar, the father of Ibrahim (6:74), was an idol worshipper. But nowhere in the Quran did I find that ALLAH (SWT) choose that (i.e. Azar) filthy unclean idol worshipper.
Brother Farid, you said Abdul-Muttalib was pagan & kuffar simply for naming his two sons with polytheistic theophoric names. I agree. You are right. No disagreement between us regarding this issue.
Quote from: IjtabaNo doubt, ALLAH (SWT) clearly states that Azar, the father of Ibrahim (6:74), was an idol worshipper. But nowhere in the Quran did I find that ALLAH (SWT) choose that (i.e. Azar) filthy unclean idol worshipper.
What do you mean chosen? So, prophets can have kaffir parents, but not the Prophet (peace be upon him) according to you?Quote from: IjtabaBrother Farid, you said Abdul-Muttalib was pagan & kuffar simply for naming his two sons with polytheistic theophoric names. I agree. You are right. No disagreement between us regarding this issue.
If you agree, you should not bother with Sunni hadiths, since they are not evidence against you.
Definitely Abu Lahab is included in Banu Hashim... but the thing is why did GOD choose polytheist/pagan Banu Hashim? And for what purpose were these polytheist/pagans chosen for? And why is this hadith given under the title:
Superiority of the Prophet's Lineage?
Does the author of the Sahih Muslim not know that GOD does not give superiority to filthy unclean polytheists.
Exactly. That's what I am asking chosen for what?
Why did author of Sahih Muslim give Prophet's (s.a.w.w) hadith of his ancestors under the heading: Superiority of Prophet's Lineage? Why are Kuffar/Pagans considered superior?
Sunni hadiths not evidence against me? I didn't understand your statement.
All I am asking is why in two ahadiths which I gave above Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) is boasting about his Pagan/Kuffar grandfather i.e. Abdul-Muttalib and Pagans/Kuffars ancestors i.e. Kinana, Quraysh and Banu Hashim???
Is having polytheistic & unclean ancestry something to be proud of?
I have many questions relating to Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) and abi Azar as well Prophet's (s.a.w.w) ancestors and his (s.a.w.w) 40 years life prior to receiving Revelations for which I would be creating new threads accordingly as I feel they need to be dealt in detail.
@Ijtaba
Why Prophet's (saw) lineage were considered superior? If you don't know, try guess it. I would like to hear what do you think.
@Ijtaba
Why Prophet's (saw) lineage were considered superior? If you don't know, try guess it. I would like to hear what do you think.
If you are asking my view (which is shias view) the answer is clear... we agree with the chapter's heading given by the author of Sahih Muslim. Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) lineage is superior i.e. pure and flawless as we consider Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) ancestors all up-to Nabi Ismail (a.s) as true believers and from Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) up-to Nabi Adam (a.s) again superior i.e. pure and flawless as they were all true believers.
So were there any believers before Muhammad (s) declared his messenger status or before he was born? Farid, Hani etc? No one has touched this question let alone try to answer it.
As for my agreeing with Farid on Abdul-Muttalib (a.s), Abu Talib (a.s) and Prophet's Parents (a.s) being mushriks is due to the fact that there exists clear ahadiths in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim about them (a.s) being Kafirs and Mushriks.
This argument hold no water. Because why? Because of the father of Ibrahim (as). Who was he? Pure and unfilthy?
Excuse me? You agree due to the Sunni hadiths?
Brother Farid, you said Abdul-Muttalib was pagan & kuffar simply for naming his two sons with polytheistic theophoric names. I agree. You are right. No disagreement between us regarding this issue.
Also, explain this:QuoteBrother Farid, you said Abdul-Muttalib was pagan & kuffar simply for naming his two sons with polytheistic theophoric names. I agree. You are right. No disagreement between us regarding this issue.
When arguments drop to a certain level I don't see a use in continuing. Each person should take a break, revisit this topic later, contemplate on and revise your stances.
"Superior" doesn't mean pure and clean. They were superior because of what they did to their society. Go and study the biography of Prophet's (saw) ancestors. What are the tidbit that we have regarding them from history? It's basically about major contributions and services they did that made them highly respectable in the eye of their society. That's how they attained superiority.
In fact, not much different from the rest of the world. If your ancestors happened to be somebody who contribute greatly to the society, the "superiority" sort of passed down to their descendents. For example, look at "kings". Their forefarthers were the one who defeated their arch-enemies and created kingdoms. And the "superiority" sort of passed down their offspring.
And again, in case of Prophet (saw), those he (saw) mentioned in sahih Muslim, contributed greatly to their tribe (and some of them beyond their own tribe). That's what make them "superior" and not necessarily because of they hold onto the right aqeedah.
Whereas Abu Lahab I have doubts regarding him being son of Abdul-Muttalib. There is no mention of him of supporting Banu Hashim or going through the sufferings inflicted on Banu Hashim. I will be researching on this character as to know his true identity and his true lineage.
I am only asking why did GOD choose Kinana, Quraysh & Banu Hashim (who were polytheists and idol-worshipers according to Ahlul Sunnah) and why did Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) in battlefield say (when most of his own comrades were deserting him): I am Prophet in Truth & I am son of Abdul-Muttalib (who was Idol-worshipper according Ahlul Sunnah).
An accuser could have accused Prophet (s.a.w.w) when he (s.a.w.w) made the above statement: "You (s.a.w.w) are fighting us for Tawheed and yet boasting to be son of Idol-worshiper???"
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
I ask, and I implore you by your love of the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, doesn't it bother you that you know about all the supposed evil and crimes committed by the Sahahba, yet you don't know ANYTHING about Abu Lahab, one of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's staunchest enemies who was mentioned (and CURSED!) by name in the Qur'an?
Again, akhi, this is Seerah 101. This battle had the most new Muslims in it, and when they abandoned him he عليه الصلاة والسلام began to appeal to them, to the religious people he say "أنا النبي لا كذب" and to the newer Muslims who may have been influenced to join the religion because of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم's lineage he said "أنا ابن عبد المطلب". I.e., he was appealing to the new Muslims who may have still had inclinations towards that way of thinking; NOT that he was saying "I'm a monotheist son of a monotheist!" That totally goes against the Qur'ans claim that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn't used to know what "the Kitab" and "Iman" were (42:52).
I really recommend you spent some time reading a book on the Seerah, you might find yourself surprised, akhi.
He reminded them of this lineage. Anyone who has studied the Seerah will know, that's how jahaliyah customs worked. By reminding the people of his lineage, and from among his lineage is Abdul Muttalib (the pagan leader), he (SAW) was able to command authority for himself among the new Muslims. How else did Abu Talib protect him (SAW) for so many years against Quraish? With harsh language? :P
I swear! It's no wonder why Shias are so oblivious to the major events in the Seerah. Cuz none of your/their ancient scholars recorded Prophetic history, and thus rely on ours! :D
Ijtaba, enlighten all of us what sources you're going to use to research the Seerah?
He reminded them of this lineage. Anyone who has studied the Seerah will know, that's how jahaliyah customs worked. By reminding the people of his lineage, and from among his lineage is Abdul Muttalib (the pagan leader), he (SAW) was able to command authority for himself among the new Muslims. How else did Abu Talib protect him (SAW) for so many years against Quraish? With harsh language? :P
I thought newly converted Sahabas abandoned their jahaliyah customs and were now acting according to Quran and Sunnah.
You asked me question about protection of Prophet (s.a.w.w) by Abu Talib (a.s). But wasn't Abu Talib (a.s) & Quraysh following jahaliyah customs as they themselves were pagans?
Are we Muslims to follow Abu Talib (a.s) & Quraysh by practicing their jahilyah customs by boasting of our lineages even if our ancestors were upon Kufr?I swear! It's no wonder why Shias are so oblivious to the major events in the Seerah. Cuz none of your/their ancient scholars recorded Prophetic history, and thus rely on ours! :D
Ijtaba, enlighten all of us what sources you're going to use to research the Seerah?
I believe the differences between Shi'as and Sunnis arose after Prophet Mohammed's (s.a.w.w) death so there is no problem if I as a Shi'a use Sunni Seerah books.
Do you have any recommendations of Seerah books which I should read that would give me detailed knowledge about the biography of the Prophet (s.a.w.w)?
Of course, but these new Muslims were not on the same wave lengths as those who accepted Islam earlier, duh! Their Iman was still somewhat weak. This is why the Prophet (SAW) was gifting acres of land to the new Muslims of Makkah. The Prophet (SAW) used his lineage to restore order on the battlefield. Many of the companions fled after being ambushed unexpectedly. Context my good man! 8)
I suggest speaking to brother Hani, or Farid for book recommendations, but a crucial point for you to swallow. Shias have NO historical source containing the basic details of the Prophet's (SAW) youth let alone the Seerah.
Of course, but these new Muslims were not on the same wave lengths as those who accepted Islam earlier, duh! Their Iman was still somewhat weak. This is why the Prophet (SAW) was gifting acres of land to the new Muslims of Makkah. The Prophet (SAW) used his lineage to restore order on the battlefield. Many of the companions fled after being ambushed unexpectedly. Context my good man! 8)
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Allah, Most High, has removed from you the pride of the pre-Islamic period and its boasting in ancestors. One is only a pious believer or a miserable sinner. You are sons of Adam, and Adam came from dust. Let the people cease to boast about their ancestors. They are merely fuel in Jahannam; or they will certainly be of less account with Allah than the beetle which rolls dung with its nose.
Grade : Hasan (Al-Albani)
Reference : Sunan Abi Dawud 5116
In-book reference : Book 43, Hadith 344
English translation : Book 42, Hadith 5097
You mean to say that Prophet (s.a.w.w) contradicted himself (i.e. see above hadith) just to call back those people who were fleeing. Prophet (s.a.w.w) resorting to jāhilīyah practice proved to be futile as none of those fleeing came back.I suggest speaking to brother Hani, or Farid for book recommendations, but a crucial point for you to swallow. Shias have NO historical source containing the basic details of the Prophet's (SAW) youth let alone the Seerah.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Brothers Hani & Farid please recommend me book(s) on Sīrat Rasūl Allāh (s.a.w.w). I would like English & Urdu books because being a Pakistani I cannot understand Arabic. However in near future its my ambition to learn Arabic language insha ALLAH (SWT).
Your understanding of Hadith is pitiful. I also recommend you read the commentary of these narrations you hand-pick. The Prophet (SAW) stated a fact, he didn't boast per see about his ancestors. He uttered barely a sentence. Abu Talib was the one who boasted about his lineage which, is why he died a Mushrik!
He reminded them of this lineage. Anyone who has studied the Seerah will know, that's how jahaliyah customs worked. By reminding the people of his lineage, and from among his lineage is Abdul Muttalib (the pagan leader), he (SAW) was able to command authority for himself among the new Muslims. How else did Abu Talib protect him (SAW) for so many years against Quraish? With harsh language? :P
Of course, but these new Muslims were not on the same wave lengths as those who accepted Islam earlier, duh! Their Iman was still somewhat weak. This is why the Prophet (SAW) was gifting acres of land to the new Muslims of Makkah. The Prophet (SAW) used his lineage to restore order on the battlefield. Many of the companions fled after being ambushed unexpectedly. Context my good man! 8)
They did return. What source are you reading, seriously?
(I am the Prophet, not lying! I am the son of Abdul-Muttalib!) There remained between a hundred and eighty Companions with the Prophet . These included Abu Bakr, `Umar, Al-`Abbas, `Ali, Al-Fadl bin `Abbas, Abu Sufyan bin Al-Harith, Ayman the son of Umm Ayman and Usamah bin Zayd. There were many other Companions, may Allah be pleased with them. The Prophet commanded his uncle Al-`Abbas, whose voice was rather loud, to call at the top of his voice, "O Companions of the Samurah ?tree?'' referring to the Muhajirin and Ansar who gave their pledge under the tree during the pledge of Ridwan, not to run away and retreat. He also called, "O Companions of Surat Al-Baqarah.'' Upon hearing that, those heralded started saying, "Here we are! Here we are!'' Muslims started returning in the direction of the Messenger of Allah . If the camel of one of them did not obey him (as the people were rushing to the other direction in flight) he would wear his shield and descend from his camel and rush to the side of the Messenger of Allah on foot. When a large crowd gathered around the Messenger of Allah , he commanded them to fight in sincerity and took a handful of sand and threw it in the faces of the disbelievers, after supplicating to Allah,
Source: ibn Kathir's (RA) tafsir.
'Abbas, although he was quoting the Prophet (SAW).
Abdul Muttalib is the one who had unparalleled prestige in Quriash not his son.
There is no contradicting between my posts. That's just your imagination getting ahead of itself as usual.
He (SAW) reminded the masses of his grandfather with 5 words. You think uttering a small statement like that in the climax of war is tantamount to boasting? If someone runs their mouth about who their ancestors were, how much money they have, the respect they command in the community, and lists their accomplishments - this would be considered boasting in Islam. That's precisely what the Quraish would do, and did before the advent of Islam, and during the Meccan phase.
Being proud of your heritage, and lineage, and making that clear is not boasting as per the Hadith you quoted. The Prophet (SAW) himself states all lineages on the Day of Judgement will count for nothing except his. That's an honour Allah (SWT) has granted him, proclaiming that is permissible.
Your question has already been answered in this thread more than once.
As, I told you before, refer to the commentaries to understanding the true underlying meaning of narrations, that appear conflicting. Refrain from allowing your internal corrupted nafs to go digging for differing narrations just to purposefully show to all of us how the main narration being scrutinised is unreliable based on your muddled rationale.
My sincere advise to you is to ask the question on HadithAnswers.com. This site is run by schoalrs of Hadith. They will undoubtedly prioritise any question from a Shia.