Simple Proof that Abdul Muttalib was a Kafir

[Ijtaba]

What about following specific narration:

Wathila b. al-Asqa' reported:
I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Verily Allah granted eminence to Kinana from amongst the descendants of Isma'il, and he granted eminence to the Quraish amongst Kinana, and he granted eminence to Banu Hashim amonsgst the Quraish, and he granted me eminence from the tribe of Banu Hashim.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 2276
In-book reference : Book 43, Hadith 1
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 30, Hadith 5653

• Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj al-Naysaburi has written this ḥadīth under following chapter:

باب فَضْلِ نَسَبِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَتَسْلِيمِ الْحَجَرِ عَلَيْهِ قَبْلَ النُّبُوَّةِ ‏‏
Chapter: The Superiority Of The Prophet's Lineage, And The Stone That Greeted Him Before His Prophethood

It is noteworthy that the Arabic text of the above ḥadīth states that ALLAH (SWT) اصْطَفَى Kinana amongst the descendants of Isma'il, and HE (SWT) اصْطَفَى Quraish amongst Kinana, and HE (SWT) اصْطَفَى Banu Hashim amonsgst the Quraish, and HE (SWT) اصْطَفَى me from the tribe of Banu Hashim

For what purpose would ALLAH (SWT) choose (اصْطَفَى) Mushrik Kinana, Mushrik Quraysh, Mushrikūn Banū Hāshim and Mu'min Moħammed (s.a.w.w)?

[Optimus Prime]

What about following specific narration:

Wathila b. al-Asqa' reported:
I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Verily Allah granted eminence to Kinana from amongst the descendants of Isma'il, and he granted eminence to the Quraish amongst Kinana, and he granted eminence to Banu Hashim amonsgst the Quraish, and he granted me eminence from the tribe of Banu Hashim.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 2276
In-book reference : Book 43, Hadith 1
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 30, Hadith 5653

• Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj al-Naysaburi has written this ḥadīth under following chapter:

باب فَضْلِ نَسَبِ النَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَتَسْلِيمِ الْحَجَرِ عَلَيْهِ قَبْلَ النُّبُوَّةِ ‏‏
Chapter: The Superiority Of The Prophet's Lineage, And The Stone That Greeted Him Before His Prophethood

It is noteworthy that the Arabic text of the above ḥadīth states that ALLAH (SWT) اصْطَفَى Kinana amongst the descendants of Isma'il, and HE (SWT) اصْطَفَى Quraish amongst Kinana, and HE (SWT) اصْطَفَى Banu Hashim amonsgst the Quraish, and HE (SWT) اصْطَفَى me from the tribe of Banu Hashim

For what purpose would ALLAH (SWT) choose (اصْطَفَى) Mushrik Kinana, Mushrik Quraysh, Mushrikūn Banū Hāshim and Mu'min Moħammed (s.a.w.w)?

From amongst doesn't include absolutely everyone - simple.

There is a verse in the Qur'an, where Allah (SWT) says (to the nearest meaning) he took the best from the progeny of certain Prophets. Now if one knows their history not every human being that came into the world from their progeny were saints. Likewise the case of Abu Talib, and his ol' man.

[Farid]

Hah. Looks like Abu Lahab was a Muslim afterall. You are becoming desperate Ijtaba.

[Ijtaba]

Where did I say that Abu Lahab is Muslim?

In fact I had provided three authentic Ahlul Sunnah ahadiths which is in agreement with what you are saying.

All I am asking is that for what purpose did GOD choose Pagans/Polytheists i.e. Kinana, Quraysh & Children of Hashim together with Believer i.e. Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w)?

[iceman]

Abu Talib did not deviate from the righteous path. Allah chose him to be one of the custodians of the Kaaba, the protector of the House of God. In Surat Al-Baqara, verse 124, it states that:

“When Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them, Allah said, Indeed, I will make you a leader [Imam] for the people. Abraham said, And of my descendants? Allah said, My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.”

[Optimus Prime]

Abu Talib did not deviate from the righteous path. Allah chose him to be one of the custodians of the Kaaba, the protector of the House of God. In Surat Al-Baqara, verse 124, it states that:

“When Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them, Allah said, Indeed, I will make you a leader [Imam] for the people. Abraham said, And of my descendants? Allah said, My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.”

Abu Talib rejected the true path on multiple occasions.

Provide me with one piece of proof from your own sources, that Abu Talib accepted Islam, or indicates that he did. Don't pluck out Qur'anic verses, and throw your own flavorist twist to it.

I bet you can't provide even one since you rely on our historical sources to study the history of the Prophet (SAW), namely ibn Ishaq, ibn Sa'd, and al-Tabari! 

[Optimus Prime]

Where did I say that Abu Lahab is Muslim?

In fact I had provided three authentic Ahlul Sunnah ahadiths which is in agreement with what you are saying.

All I am asking is that for what purpose did GOD choose Pagans/Polytheists i.e. Kinana, Quraysh & Children of Hashim together with Believer i.e. Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w)?

Are you serious?

If you're going to extrapolate the literal meaning from those narrations, then you have to extend to Abu Lahab too.

[Ijtaba]

Definitely Abu Lahab is included in Banu Hashim... but the thing is why did GOD choose polytheist/pagan Banu Hashim? And for what purpose were these polytheist/pagans chosen for? And why is this hadith given under the title:
 Superiority of the Prophet's Lineage?

Does the author of the Sahih Muslim not know that GOD does not give superiority to filthy unclean polytheists.

[Farid]

The narration itself says that Quraish was chosen, and yet, you believe that most of Quraish were kuffar.

Again, you are getting desperate, using a Sunni hadith, then your preconceptions to interpret it.

Allah clearly states that Azar, the father of Ibrahim (6:74), was an idol worshipper. What more do you need?

[iceman]

Abu Talib did not deviate from the righteous path. Allah chose him to be one of the custodians of the Kaaba, the protector of the House of God. In Surat Al-Baqara, verse 124, it states that:

“When Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them, Allah said, Indeed, I will make you a leader [Imam] for the people. Abraham said, And of my descendants? Allah said, My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.”

Abu Talib rejected the true path on multiple occasions.

Provide me with one piece of proof from your own sources, that Abu Talib accepted Islam, or indicates that he did. Don't pluck out Qur'anic verses, and throw your own flavorist twist to it.

I bet you can't provide even one since you rely on our historical sources to study the history of the Prophet (SAW), namely ibn Ishaq, ibn Sa'd, and al-Tabari! 

I do not rely on your books because your books are also full of mumbos and jumbos. Heard of Salman Rushdie and his book, Satanic Verses? Most material he took was from your books. Bravo, nice one. You talk about proof so lets start off with sense and logic, ever heard of them? I am sure you have. Then will move on. How was the final Messenger raised? How was he brought up and in what kind of environment? This is the greatest Messenger of all. Do not be scared or afraid to answer or to get in to a discussion. Come on, lets hear it.

[Ijtaba]

Desperate for what? And what interpretation did I give of Sunni hadith? On the contrary I am asking a question.

As for Quraish I believe they were all kuffar according to Ahlul Sunnah. I am only asking why did GOD choose kuffar and for what purpose were they chosen?

No doubt, ALLAH (SWT) clearly states that Azar, the father of Ibrahim (6:74), was an idol worshipper. But nowhere in the Quran did I find that ALLAH (SWT) choose that (i.e. Azar) filthy unclean idol worshipper.

[Ijtaba]

Brother Farid, you said Abdul-Muttalib was pagan & kuffar simply for naming his two sons with polytheistic theophoric names. I agree. You are right. No disagreement between us regarding this issue.

Now as I have previously stated and would again state why are these polytheists/pagans being given superiority by GOD and Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) as this really causes confusion.

Just read the hadith given below.

Narrated Abu 'Is-haq:
Somebody asked Al-Bar-a bin `Azib, "Did you flee deserting Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) during the battle of Hunain?" Al-Bara replied, "But Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did not flee. The people of the Tribe of Hawazin were good archers. When we met them, we attacked them, and they fled. When the Muslims started collecting the war booty, the pagans faced us with arrows, but Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) did not flee. No doubt, I saw him on his white mule and Abu Sufyan was holding its reins and the Prophet (ﷺ) was saying, 'I am the Prophet (ﷺ) in truth: I am the son of `Abdul Muttalib.' "

Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 2864
In-book reference : Book 56, Hadith 80
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 52, Hadith 116

Why would Prophet (s.a.w.w) who was in dangerous situation where Muslims were deserting the Prophet (s.a.w.w) leaving him alone in the battlefield say: I am the Prophet in Truth: I am son of idol-worshipper???

[Optimus Prime]

Abu Talib did not deviate from the righteous path. Allah chose him to be one of the custodians of the Kaaba, the protector of the House of God. In Surat Al-Baqara, verse 124, it states that:

“When Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them, Allah said, Indeed, I will make you a leader [Imam] for the people. Abraham said, And of my descendants? Allah said, My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.”

Abu Talib rejected the true path on multiple occasions.

Provide me with one piece of proof from your own sources, that Abu Talib accepted Islam, or indicates that he did. Don't pluck out Qur'anic verses, and throw your own flavorist twist to it.

I bet you can't provide even one since you rely on our historical sources to study the history of the Prophet (SAW), namely ibn Ishaq, ibn Sa'd, and al-Tabari! 

I do not rely on your books because your books are also full of mumbos and jumbos. Heard of Salman Rushdie and his book, Satanic Verses? Most material he took was from your books. Bravo, nice one. You talk about proof so lets start off with sense and logic, ever heard of them? I am sure you have. Then will move on. How was the final Messenger raised? How was he brought up and in what kind of environment? This is the greatest Messenger of all. Do not be scared or afraid to answer or to get in to a discussion. Come on, lets hear it.

Hah! If we apply Shia logic, that's borderline retarded, and prehistoric at best, we'll be here forever! Just like the Saqifah discussion.

Your question has already been answered by others in this thread, but you're hell bent on asking repeatedly. Review the thread.

In that case, please provide me one Shia primary source where you can ascertain biological information of the Prophet's (SAW) family. Show me which, historical Shia source confirms the name of the Prophet's mother, father, grandfather, and his uncle? Grow a pair, and don't cowardly shy away like a snake!

By primary, I mean original source not a random book of a Shia clergy merely stating names, and not sourcing his information.

The fact is, when it comes to early history especially before the advent of Islam, you're heavily reliant on our sources!

[Farid]

No doubt, ALLAH (SWT) clearly states that Azar, the father of Ibrahim (6:74), was an idol worshipper. But nowhere in the Quran did I find that ALLAH (SWT) choose that (i.e. Azar) filthy unclean idol worshipper.

What do you mean chosen? So, prophets can have kaffir parents, but not the Prophet (peace be upon him) according to you?

Brother Farid, you said Abdul-Muttalib was pagan & kuffar simply for naming his two sons with polytheistic theophoric names. I agree. You are right. No disagreement between us regarding this issue.

If you agree, you should not bother with Sunni hadiths, since they are not evidence against you.

[Optimus Prime]

No doubt, ALLAH (SWT) clearly states that Azar, the father of Ibrahim (6:74), was an idol worshipper. But nowhere in the Quran did I find that ALLAH (SWT) choose that (i.e. Azar) filthy unclean idol worshipper.

What do you mean chosen? So, prophets can have kaffir parents, but not the Prophet (peace be upon him) according to you?

Brother Farid, you said Abdul-Muttalib was pagan & kuffar simply for naming his two sons with polytheistic theophoric names. I agree. You are right. No disagreement between us regarding this issue.

If you agree, you should not bother with Sunni hadiths, since they are not evidence against you.

FINALLY! SOMEONE TALKS IN MY LANGUAGE!! 

[Abu Muhammad]

Definitely Abu Lahab is included in Banu Hashim... but the thing is why did GOD choose polytheist/pagan Banu Hashim? And for what purpose were these polytheist/pagans chosen for? And why is this hadith given under the title:
 Superiority of the Prophet's Lineage?

Does the author of the Sahih Muslim not know that GOD does not give superiority to filthy unclean polytheists.

@Ijtaba

Why Prophet's (saw) lineage were considered superior? If you don't know, try guess it. I would like to hear what do you think.

[Ijtaba]

Exactly. That's what I am asking chosen for what?

Why did author of Sahih Muslim give Prophet's (s.a.w.w) hadith of his ancestors under the heading: Superiority of Prophet's Lineage? Why are Kuffar/Pagans considered superior?

Sunni hadiths not evidence against me? I didn't understand your statement.

All I am asking is why in two ahadiths which I gave above Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) is boasting about his Pagan/Kuffar grandfather i.e. Abdul-Muttalib and Pagans/Kuffars ancestors i.e. Kinana, Quraysh and Banu Hashim???

Is having polytheistic & unclean ancestry something to be proud of?

I have many questions relating to Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) and abi Azar as well Prophet's (s.a.w.w) ancestors and his (s.a.w.w) 40 years life prior to receiving Revelations for which I would be creating new threads accordingly as I feel they need to be dealt in detail.

[Abu Muhammad]

Exactly. That's what I am asking chosen for what?

Why did author of Sahih Muslim give Prophet's (s.a.w.w) hadith of his ancestors under the heading: Superiority of Prophet's Lineage? Why are Kuffar/Pagans considered superior?

Sunni hadiths not evidence against me? I didn't understand your statement.

All I am asking is why in two ahadiths which I gave above Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) is boasting about his Pagan/Kuffar grandfather i.e. Abdul-Muttalib and Pagans/Kuffars ancestors i.e. Kinana, Quraysh and Banu Hashim???

Is having polytheistic & unclean ancestry something to be proud of?

I have many questions relating to Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) and abi Azar as well Prophet's (s.a.w.w) ancestors and his (s.a.w.w) 40 years life prior to receiving Revelations for which I would be creating new threads accordingly as I feel they need to be dealt in detail.

So, I'm asking what do you think why they were superior?

[Ijtaba]

@Ijtaba

Why Prophet's (saw) lineage were considered superior? If you don't know, try guess it. I would like to hear what do you think.

If you are asking my view (which is shias view) the answer is clear... we agree with the chapter's heading given by the author of Sahih Muslim. Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) lineage is superior i.e. pure and flawless as we consider Prophet Mohammed (s.a.w.w) ancestors all up-to Nabi Ismail (a.s) as true believers and from Nabi Ibrahim (a.s) up-to Nabi Adam (a.s) again superior i.e. pure and flawless as they were all true believers.

ALLAH (SWT) Always chooses the Best, Noble and Superior People and not unclean and filthy people. Why would ALLAH (SWT) bestow Prophethood to the descendants of unclean and filthy people i.e. those people who are drunk, idol-worshipers, fornicators, thieves, liars and Enemies of GOD? It is preposterous to think that Prophets (a.s) and Messengers (a.s) would come from the loins and wombs of fornicators, idol-worshipers and Enemies of GOD.
 

[Ijtaba]

As for my agreeing with Farid on Abdul-Muttalib (a.s), Abu Talib (a.s) and Prophet's Parents (a.s) being mushriks is due to the fact that there exists clear ahadiths in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim about them (a.s) being Kafirs and Mushriks.