TwelverShia.net Forum
Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Sahabah-AhlulBayt => Topic started by: Furkan on March 30, 2015, 10:51:25 PM
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Assalamu Alaykum my muslim brothers and sisters.
So recently a shiite started (AGAIN) to discuss with me about the non incident of pen and paper. ( I know, very annoying right !!!)
I went through many narrations about this incident and all of them are 95 percent the same. The thing is, I remember I had read some months ago a version where it is mentioned that rasululah (saw) fainted and AFTER that happened, hazrat Umar (ra) said against the others around the following : "Quran is sufficient for us".
Now I can't find it in sunni sources. I tried using the searchtool on TS already, but no succes :/
The funny part is that I did find a shiite version in Kitab Al Irshad by Al Mufeed where rasululah (saw) fainted. On websites you will get as reference for this version: Kitab Al Irshad by Al Mufeed p.130 whereas on an online pdf version, I found this incident on page 126 and 127.
(plz don't kill me for re opening this simple, old issue)
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Incident of the pen-and-paper can be summed up as:
Your teacher has been teaching your class that 1+1 = 2 your whole life.
You are about to graduate, and he tells you, "Get me a pen and paper and I'll write down for you what 1+1 equals" and one person replies "No no, that's not necessary, I understand it". And then others who havent't been paying as much attention say "No let him write it down, I still don't get it." or "Let him write it down so we don't forget".
And then your teacher gets annoyed and tells everyone to leave.
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The Prophet (saw) had taught the companions all that they needed to know so as to not go astray. They knew that they must stick to the Qur'an.
When the Prophet (saw) was on his deathbed, he told them, "Get me a pen and paper and I'll write something down for you after which you won't go astray". The confident and learned companions thought "No need, we have the book of Allah (swt)" - in other words "No need, you've taught us everything, and we are not going to forget".
Some others whose faith and confidence was weaker disagreed, an argument ensued, and the Prophet (saw) told them all to leave.
Ofcourse, being satisfied with that answer of 'Umar (ra), he never mentioned the issue again.
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Barak Allahu feek brother Husayn.
To me this issue is already clear in general (no doubts) but as mentioned in the topic, the version where rasululah (saw) fainted is still needed since the shiite asks for this in particular. He dismisses explanations of scholars about this issue btw (unless it's supported by evidences from quran en sunna).
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Barak Allahu feek brother Husayn.
To me this issue is already clear in general (no doubts) but as mentioned in the topic, the version where rasululah (saw) fainted is still needed since the shiite asks for this in particular. He dismisses explanations of scholars about this issue btw (unless it's supported by evidences from quran en sunna).
Yeah I know - if you've been involved in polemics this issue should be very clear to you.
I just wanted to get my 2 cents in.
As for that hadith - I don't believe I've come across, I'll do a search insha Allah.
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Barak Allahu feek brother Husayn.
He dismisses explanations of scholars about this issue btw (unless it's supported by evidences from quran en sunna).
Speaking of evidence, Rasulullah shallallahu alaihi wassalam evidently didnt see it necessary to write it down, because he didnt write it later that thursday or friday or saturday or sunday or part of monday. Unless that shia wants to make up story that Umar RA stayed in his room, kept the pen & paper for himself for those several days :D
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The shiite also says that Rasululah (saw) did write a letter the next days and handed it ali fatima etc...
lol, they just come up with everything. Especially when I browsed through al mufeed's book, I came across so many OBVIOUS fabrications about sahaba . For example: Rasululah calling Abu Bakr (into his house) when rasululah was very sick) and when abu bakr went inside, Rasululah turned away his face.
I say: why the heck would someone invite you to his house and then don't look at your face ?
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The shiite also says that Rasululah (saw) did write a letter the next days and handed it ali fatima etc...
maybe because it contains the command for ali RA to be the leader of the house, to look after his wife & family etc, otherwise it will be shown to everyone right? :) Besides, don't they say that all companions have pledged allegiance in Ghadir in front of 100 thousand people? What's the use of piece of paper if everyone already knows about it? Did Umar RA not giving him pen & paper makes everyone forget what happen in Ghadir? Or maybe what happened in Ghadir is not about leadership? Shia have to make up their mind.
Shia scholars, one of the most creative bedtime story writers always miss the small damning details :D
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Shiites say that rasululah repeated this "will" multiple times since ghadeer kum,
(hopeless shia :p)
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The shiite also says that Rasululah (saw) did write a letter the next days and handed it ali fatima etc...
Yes, because according to Shiism, Islam was revealed only for the Prophet (saw)'s family - specifically 'Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Husayn (rathi Allahu 'anhum).
Rasul Allah (saw) came to establish a dynasty on earth.
They accuse Bani Ummayah of claiming that Rasul Allah (saw) only came to establish mulk for Bani Hashim...well, according to Shia beliefs this is an accurate statement.
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Brother Furkan watch this:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/dr-yasir-qadhi-on-the-narration-of-the-scrolls/msg4551
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I will watch it tomorow, though textual evidence is very much appreciated since I sent those texts to the shii (he doesn't know english, he just looks for the references and searches it up in english).
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Shiites say that rasululah repeated this "will" multiple times since ghadeer kum,
(hopeless shia :p)
ah ok, so theres several papers with this so called will and shia still complain & make a big deal about 1.
Still doesnt explain why it needs to be written down, not to mention several times, if shia say all companions have already pledged allegiance to Ali in ghadir
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The problem is not the issue of the paper, it's the issue of rawafid doing takfir on Umar and accusing him of rejection.
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My new summarized reply to this is the following,
Tell the Shia who is arguing that we have two different explanations for this Hadith.
1-Sunni explanation: `Umar wished for Rasul-Allah (saw) to rest out of fear for his health and assured him that the nation knows that it must seek its guidance from Allah's book as he (saw) had always taught them.
2-Shia explanation: `Umar tried to forcefully prevent the Prophet (saw) from guiding the people, he insulted him, disobeyed him and raised his voice at him.
Now neither we or the Shia were eye witnesses of this event so that we can get the full picture, the eye witness is the only companion who narrated this event, `Abdullah ibn `Abbas.
The Prophet (saw) died after only a couple of days, SO
If the Sunni version is correct, then the Prophet (saw) must have been happy and pleased with `Umar ibn al-Khattab when he died.
However, if the Shia interpretation is correct, then the Prophet (saw) must have been angry and displeased with `Umar ibn al-Khattab when he died.
Who can we settle this? Well, it can be settled by the same man who witnessed the event with his own eyes and understood it in its proper context, `Abdullah ibn `Abbas.
`Abdullah ibn `Abbas tells `Umar ibn al-Khattab while the latter was on his deathbed in the authentic report: "And the Prophet (saw) had died while being pleased with you O `Umar."
End of story.
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What do Shiites think that RasulAllah (saws) was going to write anyways? To follow the Qur'an and Ahl al-Bayt? Didn't he already do this in Hadeeth al-Thaqalayn? So it really is even less of an issue for Shiites and yet they are the ones that keep emphasizing this incident.
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Hani, can you give me references (if possible also the version with faint).
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The shiite showed me this (http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=113249) and told me that Imam An Nawawi commented on this hadith without any supporting evidence from quran and sunnah (to explain Umar's statement and the quarrel).
Since I don't know arabic, I am clueless.
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The shiite showed me this (http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=113249) and told me that Imam An Nawawi commented on this hadith without any supporting evidence from quran and sunnah (to explain Umar's statement and the quarrel).
Since I don't know arabic, I am clueless.
Akhi, how can you quote evidence from the Qur'an and Sunnah to explain this incident? You want Imam an-Nawawi رحمه الله to quote an ayah from the Qur'an telling you who was right and who was wrong? Why doesn't your friend quote a verse from the Qur'an or a Hadeeth to explain it?
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The shiite showed me this (http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=113249) and told me that Imam An Nawawi commented on this hadith without any supporting evidence from quran and sunnah (to explain Umar's statement and the quarrel).
Since I don't know arabic, I am clueless.
What's amazing, is had I read what the Imam رحمه الله wrote, I would've seen he DID quote evidence from the Qur'an to explain this سبحان الله. He says رحمه الله:
"As for Omar رضي الله عنه's words, then the scholars who spoke about this hadeeth agreed that this is from the evidences that show Omar's understanding (fiqh), his virtue and his precise opinions because he worried that [the Messenger] صلى الله عليه وسلم would write things that they may not have been able to do and then they would have deserved to be punished for it because it would be written down with no room for ijtihaad in it. So Omar said, "Allah's Book is sufficient for us." Because of what Allah said, " We have neglected nothing in the Book" [6:38] and "Today I have perfect your Religion for you." [5:3] Therefore, he knew Allah has perfect His Religion so he felt safe that the Ummah would be safe from misguidance. So he wanted to make things easier on the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, therefore, Omar had better understanding (fiqh) than ibn Abbaas and those who agreed with him."
سبحان الله
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What do Shiites think that RasulAllah (saws) was going to write anyways? To follow the Qur'an and Ahl al-Bayt? Didn't he already do this in Hadeeth al-Thaqalayn? So it really is even less of an issue for Shiites and yet they are the ones that keep emphasizing this incident.
They say he was going to write down `Ali's Imamah. (no joke, they have a Hadith on it).
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What do Shiites think that RasulAllah (saws) was going to write anyways? To follow the Qur'an and Ahl al-Bayt? Didn't he already do this in Hadeeth al-Thaqalayn? So it really is even less of an issue for Shiites and yet they are the ones that keep emphasizing this incident.
They say he was going to write down `Ali's Imamah. (no joke, they have a Hadith on it).
As if Rasoolullah (s) would allow someone to prevent him from conveying the most important belief of a Muslim i.e. Wilaya.
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What do Shiites think that RasulAllah (saws) was going to write anyways? To follow the Qur'an and Ahl al-Bayt? Didn't he already do this in Hadeeth al-Thaqalayn? So it really is even less of an issue for Shiites and yet they are the ones that keep emphasizing this incident.
They say he was going to write down `Ali's Imamah. (no joke, they have a Hadith on it).
How do they have this hadith? Did RasulAllah (saws) supposedly tell someone that he was going to write about the Imamate of Ali (ra)? If he had someone friendly to Ahl al-Bayt (ra) around, why didn't he go ahead and write it, then? ::)
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The imams must've received revelation :o
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How do they have this hadith? Did RasulAllah (saws) supposedly tell someone that he was going to write about the Imamate of Ali (ra)? If he had someone friendly to Ahl al-Bayt (ra) around, why didn't he go ahead and write it, then? ::)
Hadith says the Prophet (saw) after kicking everyone out, called on `Ali and made him write it down privately without anyone knowing.
SubhanAllah = )
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Hani, can you give me references (if possible also the version with faint).
You mean this?:
http://forum.twelvershia.net/sahabah-ahlulbayt/statements-of-ali-and-ibn-abass-to-umar-bin-khatab-during-his-final-moments/
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The shiite showed me this (http://fatwa.islamweb.net/fatwa/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=113249) and told me that Imam An Nawawi commented on this hadith without any supporting evidence from quran and sunnah (to explain Umar's statement and the quarrel).
Since I don't know arabic, I am clueless.
What's amazing, is had I read what the Imam رحمه الله wrote, I would've seen he DID quote evidence from the Qur'an to explain this سبحان الله. He says رحمه الله:
"As for Omar رضي الله عنه's words, then the scholars who spoke about this hadeeth agreed that this is from the evidences that show Omar's understanding (fiqh), his virtue and his precise opinions because he worried that [the Messenger] صلى الله عليه وسلم would write things that they may not have been able to do and then they would have deserved to be punished for it because it would be written down with no room for ijtihaad in it. So Omar said, "Allah's Book is sufficient for us." Because of what Allah said, " We have neglected nothing in the Book" [6:38] and "Today I have perfect your Religion for you." [5:3] Therefore, he knew Allah has perfect His Religion so he felt safe that the Ummah would be safe from misguidance. So he wanted to make things easier on the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم, therefore, Omar had better understanding (fiqh) than ibn Abbaas and those who agreed with him."
سبحان الله
If i read this explanation, to me it looks like Umar (ra) said this to rasululah (saw). (if i'm wrong plz correct me, since my english understanding isn't perfect).
From other refutations/explanations I ussualy come across the following argument:
-Umar (ra) said "quran is sufficient" after rasululah (saw) fainted. Umar didn't say it to rasululah (saw) but to the ones who wanted to bring it. (Though i can't find evidence for this argument in the hadiths about this incident)
So the whole thing that bothers me is this ^
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Bismillah
Salam
SubhanAllah, how can it be called a non-incident when ibn 'Abbas him called it a raziyyah (calamity)?
From Bukhari:
حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي يُونُسُ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ لَمَّا اشْتَدَّ بِالنَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَجَعُهُ قَالَ " ائْتُونِي بِكِتَابٍ أَكْتُبُ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لاَ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ ". قَالَ عُمَرُ إِنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم غَلَبَهُ الْوَجَعُ وَعِنْدَنَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ حَسْبُنَا فَاخْتَلَفُوا وَكَثُرَ اللَّغَطُ. قَالَ " قُومُوا عَنِّي، وَلاَ يَنْبَغِي عِنْدِي التَّنَازُعُ ". فَخَرَجَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ يَقُولُ إِنَّ الرَّزِيَّةَ كُلَّ الرَّزِيَّةِ مَا حَالَ بَيْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَبَيْنَ كِتَابِهِ.
Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah:
Ibn `Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet (ﷺ) became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But `Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet (ﷺ) differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet (ﷺ) said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me." Ibn `Abbas came out saying, "It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise.
(And then the translator adds stuff; actually he even added stuff to the hadith ???)
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/3/56
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Bismillah
Salam
SubhanAllah, how can it be called a non-incident when ibn 'Abbas him called it a raziyyah (calamity)?
From Bukhari:
حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنِي ابْنُ وَهْبٍ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي يُونُسُ، عَنِ ابْنِ شِهَابٍ، عَنْ عُبَيْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ، قَالَ لَمَّا اشْتَدَّ بِالنَّبِيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَجَعُهُ قَالَ " ائْتُونِي بِكِتَابٍ أَكْتُبُ لَكُمْ كِتَابًا لاَ تَضِلُّوا بَعْدَهُ ". قَالَ عُمَرُ إِنَّ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم غَلَبَهُ الْوَجَعُ وَعِنْدَنَا كِتَابُ اللَّهِ حَسْبُنَا فَاخْتَلَفُوا وَكَثُرَ اللَّغَطُ. قَالَ " قُومُوا عَنِّي، وَلاَ يَنْبَغِي عِنْدِي التَّنَازُعُ ". فَخَرَجَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ يَقُولُ إِنَّ الرَّزِيَّةَ كُلَّ الرَّزِيَّةِ مَا حَالَ بَيْنَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَبَيْنَ كِتَابِهِ.
Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah:
Ibn `Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet (ﷺ) became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But `Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet (ﷺ) differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet (ﷺ) said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me." Ibn `Abbas came out saying, "It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise.
(And then the translator adds stuff; actually he even added stuff to the hadith ???)
http://sunnah.com/bukhari/3/56
Do any of the other companions refer to is as "calamity"?
I believe that Ibn 'Abbas (ra) referred to it as such because he witnessed it as a young boy, and as such, he was traumatised by it.
Obviously, being young, and seeing the companions (men who you greatly respect and admire) arguing, and the Prophet (saw) getting angry and telling them to leave would have a lasting impact on you.
And so, when he recalled the event, it stirred up powerful emotions, leading to him calling it a "calamity".
I believe that Ibn 'Abbas (ra) was wrong about his interpretation of this event, especially considering his young age.
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mashaAllah bro Husayn, its much easier to see things clearly without belief of 12ers isnt it?
The problem is the shia imamah glasses, as long as ones wears it, it will make everything looks crooked.
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I remember Husayn bringing this hadith up in school lol.