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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Sahabah-AhlulBayt => Topic started by: Ameen on December 14, 2014, 04:25:23 AM

Title: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 14, 2014, 04:25:23 AM
Did The Prophet (Pbuh) Present The Land To Fatimah (sa) ?

The Prophet (pbuh) in his life time with the instructions from Allah the almighty presented this Land to Hazrath Fatimah (sa), as is found in the Commentary of the respected Sunni Scholar, Jalaluddin al-Suyuti. Here is the historical background for the Land of Fadak, and after that is the text for the Tafseer for the Verse 26 Chapter XVII.

Imam ‘Ali (as) was sent to Fadak, a Jewish town not far from Khaibar to take it. But, before the use of any force, the inhabitants tendered their submission, ceding half of their property to the prophet (pbuh). When the Angel Gabriel revealed to the Prophet the Divine Command as in the Verse 26 of Chapter XVII (17)

"And give unto one who is of Kin (to thee) that which is due”(17:26)

and the Prophet (pbuh) asked as to who was meant as "being of Kin". the Angel named Hazrath Fatimah (sa) and told the Prophet (pbuh) to give Fadak to her (as), as the Income from Fadak belonged wholly to him on account of its being ceded to him without the use of force. the Prophet (pbuh) accordingly bestowed upon Hazrath Fatimah (sa) his estate of Fadak for the subsistence of herself and her children.

With reference to the above Qur’anic Verse, many Sunni commentators have written that:

when the Verse was revealed, the Holy Prophet (Pbuh) asked the Angel Gabriel: "Who are the Kinsmen and what is their due?”The Angel Gibrael replied "Give Fadak to Fatimah for it is her due, and whatever is due to Allah and the Prophet (Pbuh) out of Fadak, that also belongs to her, so entrust to her also."

The above is narrated through al Bazzar, Abu Yala, Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn Marduwayh and others from Abu Said al Khudri and through Ibn Marduwayh from Abdullah ibn al Abbas for the above verse.

Sunni references:

- Tafsir Durr al-Mansur, v4, p177
- Kanz al-Ummal, v2, p158
- Sawaiq al Muhriqah Chapter 15 p 21-22
- Rozatul Safaa vol 2 p 135
- Sharah e Muwaqif p 735
- Tareekh Ahmadi p45
- Ruh al ma’ani, vol 15 p 62

It leaves no room for us to believe that the Land of Fadak was not the personal belonging of Hazrath Fatimah (sa)!

Historians also write that

Certainly, Abu Bakar (ra) snatched Fadak from Fatimah (sa)

Sunni references:

- Sharah, vol 16 p 219

- Wafa al Wafa (as Samhudi), vol 3 p1000

- Sawaiq al Muhriqah, p 32

If anybody claims that the above story is no where to be found in the hadith books, I would like you to refer to these books, that are termed as authentic and reliable by the Sunni scholars that contains the very event that you have had mentioned.

- Commentary of the Qur’an by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi , v8, p125 (Under the Tafseer of Surah Hashr)
- Sawaiq al-Muhriqah by Ibn Hajar Haythmi, p21

Fatimah (sa) raised a voice when Fadak was stolen from her, protesting to Abu Bakar (ra), she said:

You have taken over possesion of Fadak although the Prophet had gifted it to me during his life time.

On this Abu Bakar (ra) asked her to produce witnesses of the gift. Consequently, Imam ‘Ali (as) and Umm Ayman gave evidence on her favor. Umm Ayman was the freed bond maid and the dry nurse for the Holy Prophet (pbuh), She was the mother of Usamah ibn Zayd ibn al Harith. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) usted to say Umm Ayman is my mother after my mother. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) also bore witness that she is among the people of paradise.

Sunni references:

- al Mustadrak, vol 4 p 63
- History of Tabari, vol 3 p 3460
- al Istiab, vol 4 p 1793
- Usud al Ghabah, vol 5 p 567
- Tabaqat, vol 8 p 192
- al Isabah, vol 4 p 432
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 14, 2014, 04:38:34 AM
One thing I would like you people to answer is that when the Muhajir and Ansar gathered in Sakeefa and the meeting took place to select someone to lead the Ummah and the result of that meeting was Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was selected and elected as leader and the new administration was formed, where did the funds come from to run the government and the Muslim army???? Where did the money come from to run state affairs??? Was the sight not set on Fadak??? Obviously to run government the money/funds/ income has to come from some where. So if it was not Fadak then how did they run government, the army and the state affairs??????????????????????? Where did the money come from???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Taha on December 14, 2014, 06:00:53 AM
Abu Bakar (ra)

I thought you were a Shi`ah???? :o
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 14, 2014, 03:41:09 PM
One thing I would like you people to answer is that when the Muhajir and Ansar gathered in Sakeefa and the meeting took place to select someone to lead the Ummah and the result of that meeting was Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) was selected and elected as leader and the new administration was formed, where did the funds come from to run the government and the Muslim army? ??? Where did the money come from to run state affairs??? Was the sight not set on Fadak??? Obviously to run government the money/funds/ income has to come from some where. So if it was not Fadak then how did they run government, the army and the state affairs? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? Where did the money come from???


I'm gonna answer this one cause it's new Haha = )


Fadak was acquired during the battles of Khaybar which took place in the year 7 AH.


The Prophet (saw) had many conquests and battles during his life and he died in 11 AH.


Starting from the events of al-Abwa' which happened in 2 AH, the Muslims were involved in plenty of battles against their enemies before "Fadak" was acquired.


My answer is, they didn't need Fadak because it wasn't the only source to fund the Muslims, there were plenty of other ways that they funded the armies.


I add, if Fadak was the only source of funding as you claim, why'd he give it to Fatimah thus depriving the nation of an essential resource and key to military success?


Also, if Fadak belonged to Fatimah during the life of the Prophet (saw), no one had a right to take from it to fund the army, which means the Muslims remained during his life without any funding because the Prophet (saw) handed the only means of income to his daughter.


(Which is selfish No?)
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 14, 2014, 03:55:24 PM
I like this part of your piece the most:



Quote

Historians also write that


Certainly, Abu Bakar (ra) snatched Fadak from Fatimah (sa)


Sunni references:


- Sharah, vol 16 p 219


- Wafa al Wafa (as Samhudi), vol 3 p1000


- Sawaiq al Muhriqah, p 32


These Sunni scholars must really hate Abu Bakr hehe... If they wrote in their books that he CERTAINLY SNATCHED Fadak from Fatimah (as).


I'm sure you're providing us with some accurate information brother, I want to ask about one thing though, in the Sunni sources, the first source is called "Sharah", may I ask who the author of this book is?



Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 14, 2014, 04:57:40 PM
I am starting work at te moment. Insha'allah I will get back to you. But I love the "HA HA and the HEE HEE" from you. For me this is just  a discussion and in general but from you boys I know it is grievance and personal. Your attitude and the way you boys respond shows it all. Just digest this for the moment that Muhammad Ibne Isma'eel Al Bukhari what was his views on Shias??? Do some home work on this and then you will find certain narrations which he rejected because he didn't see them authentic enough but the ones he did are in his collection of The book Bukhari, which has been labelled not just "Sehih Bukhar"i but is labelled "Sehih Bukhari Baad zs kithaab e Bar". From here I wil put many narrations which go against or do not fall in favour of the companions. What are you going to do here???  Areyou going to do the same and question the reputation and Aqeedah of Bukhari himself????
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 14, 2014, 05:03:03 PM
I like this part of your piece the most:



Quote

Historians also write that


Certainly, Abu Bakar (ra) snatched Fadak from Fatimah (sa)


Sunni references:


- Sharah, vol 16 p 219


- Wafa al Wafa (as Samhudi), vol 3 p1000


- Sawaiq al Muhriqah, p 32


These Sunni scholars must really hate Abu Bakr hehe... If they wrote in their books that he CERTAINLY SNATCHED Fadak from Fatimah (as).


I'm sure you're providing us with some accurate information brother, I want to ask about one thing though, in the Sunni sources, the first source is called "Sharah", may I ask who the author of this book is?


It's not your fault that you are programmed to think one way. For you it"s just about love and hate and then see and take everything on such basis. They are Ahle Sunnah well known scholars and those are Ahle SUnnah authentic books. Now there is something called research, putting both arguments forward, seeing and looking at things with an open mind etc.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 14, 2014, 05:30:09 PM
I am starting work at te moment. Insha'allah I will get back to you. But I love the "HA HA and the HEE HEE" from you. For me this is just  a discussion and in general but from you boys I know it is grievance and personal. Your attitude and the way you boys respond shows it all. Just digest this for the moment that Muhammad Ibne Isma'eel Al Bukhari what was his views on Shias???


I see the Hahas and Hehes are getting to you, try to ignore them and stick to topic : )
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 14, 2014, 05:35:10 PM

It's not your fault that you are programmed to think one way. For you it"s just about love and hate and then see and take everything on such basis. They are Ahle Sunnah well known scholars and those are Ahle SUnnah authentic books. Now there is something called research, putting both arguments forward, seeing and looking at things with an open mind etc.


You're quoting from a book, don't you know who its author is? I asked you a simple question brother. Answer me as far as this Sunni source called "Sharah".


As for al-Wafa and al-Sawa`iq, I'd like to know WHERE they wrote "Certainly, Abu Bakar (ra) snatched Fadak from Fatimah (sa)."


Can you provide the Arabic texts of these statements? Otherwise, they're unacceptable in this format you presented, and IF it should turn out that they never said such things, then do you prefer to be accused of "Lying" or "Ignorance"?

Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 14, 2014, 08:39:03 PM
I am starting work at te moment. Insha'allah I will get back to you. But I love the "HA HA and the HEE HEE" from you. For me this is just  a discussion and in general but from you boys I know it is grievance and personal. Your attitude and the way you boys respond shows it all. Just digest this for the moment that Muhammad Ibne Isma'eel Al Bukhari what was his views on Shias???


I see the Hahas and Hehes are getting to you, try to ignore them and stick to topic : )

Nothing is getting to me. This is where you are wrong as well as many other places. Pointing something out or ones behaviour and attitude, doesn't mean it's getting to you. Have an open mind to and about things. Ignore them and stick to the topic??? LOL! Why don't you stick to the topic in the first place and keep everything that is off topic out??? Start to practice what you preech!
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: MuslimK on December 14, 2014, 10:59:15 PM

I thought you were a Shi`ah???? :o

He is a Shia. He even use ra for Muawiyah.

I don't know the reason :)
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: MuslimK on December 14, 2014, 11:26:38 PM
اسلام علیکم


They are Ahle Sunnah well known scholars and those are Ahle Sunnah authentic books. Now there is something called research, putting both arguments forward, seeing and looking at things with an open mind etc.

Have you really done your research? Then name the author of the book 'Sharah' and quote Arabic texts for other references. If you can't do that then tell us. Nothing wrong with it.  After all we are humans and make mistake.


You're quoting from a book, don't you know who its author is? I asked you a simple question brother. Answer me as far as this Sunni source called "Sharah".


As for al-Wafa and al-Sawa`iq, I'd like to know WHERE they wrote "Certainly, Abu Bakar (ra) snatched Fadak from Fatimah (sa)."


Can you provide the Arabic texts of these statements? Otherwise, they're unacceptable in this format you presented, and IF it should turn out that they never said such things, then do you prefer to be accused of "Lying" or "Ignorance"?

+1
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 14, 2014, 11:27:37 PM

Nothing is getting to me. This is where you are wrong as well as many other places. Pointing something out or ones behaviour and attitude, doesn't mean it's getting to you. Have an open mind to and about things. Ignore them and stick to the topic??? LOL! Why don't you stick to the topic in the first place and keep everything that is off topic out??? Start to practice what you preech!


I said that because you keep quoting them and commenting on them, they catch your attention, this isn't the first time you do it.


As for "off-topic", let me quote to you what you said:


Quote
Just digest this for the moment that Muhammad Ibne Isma'eel Al Bukhari what was his views on Shias??? Do some home work on this and then you will find certain narrations which he rejected because he didn't see them authentic enough but the ones he did are in his collection of The book Bukhari, which has been labelled not just "Sehih Bukhar"i but is labelled "Sehih Bukhari Baad zs kithaab e Bar". What are you going to do here???  Areyou going to do the same and question the reputation and Aqeedah of Bukhari himself?


You're "off topic" because we're talking about Fadak, we don't care about Bukhari's view on Shia or Bukhari's `Aqeedah, or the authenticity of his book, it's all off topic.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Husayn on December 14, 2014, 11:28:49 PM

It's not your fault that you are programmed to think one way. For you it"s just about love and hate and then see and take everything on such basis. They are Ahle Sunnah well known scholars and those are Ahle SUnnah authentic books. Now there is something called research, putting both arguments forward, seeing and looking at things with an open mind etc.


You're quoting from a book, don't you know who its author is? I asked you a simple question brother. Answer me as far as this Sunni source called "Sharah".

Can I answer?

*raises hand*

Pick me! Pick me!

Oh what the hell - is it "Sharah" Nahjul Balagha by the "Sunni" scholar Ibn Abi al-Hadid?

I like how the great Shia scholar who wrote this article has disguised it so well.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 14, 2014, 11:30:57 PM

Have you really done your research? Then name the author of the book 'Sharah'



By the way, I know the book's full name and the name of its author and his Madhab, I just want to hear it from him.


(He's not Sunni)
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 14, 2014, 11:32:08 PM

Can I answer?

*raises hand*

Pick me! Pick me!

Oh what the hell - is it "Sharah" Nahjul Balagha by the "Sunni" scholar Ibn Abi al-Hadid?

I like how the great Shia scholar who wrote this article has disguised it so well.


Hahaha, there you go, that's him, the Mu`tazili Shi`ee.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 14, 2014, 11:36:44 PM
Just got a few minutes before i finish my break.   Brothers Khoursani and Taha, to be a shia is it compulsory not to put (ra) with companions of the Prophet (pbuh)??? Is it among the Shia principals, rules and regulations that certain companions of the Prophet (pbuh) have to be spoken about and discussed in this particular manner only??? Everybody has their own language, tone and way they want to use when speaking about certain individuals. This is mine. The moderators and certain members of this forum and especially the Haq Char Yaar forum, who are you me or anyone else to decide who is what and who isn't what. Each and every individual knows who and what they are. We can call whp ever we want what ever we want. But calling someone by any particular name or giving someone our desired identity, doesn't make that person become that.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Husayn on December 15, 2014, 12:15:01 AM
Just got a few minutes before i finish my break.   Brothers Khoursani and Taha, to be a shia is it compulsory not to put (ra) with companions of the Prophet (pbuh)??? Is it among the Shia principals, rules and regulations that certain companions of the Prophet (pbuh) have to be spoken about and discussed in this particular manner only??? Everybody has their own language, tone and way they want to use when speaking about certain individuals. This is mine. The moderators and certain members of this forum and especially the Haq Char Yaar forum, who are you me or anyone else to decide who is what and who isn't what. Each and every individual knows who and what they are. We can call whp ever we want what ever we want. But calling someone by any particular name or giving someone our desired identity, doesn't make that person become that.

See what we mean when we say that every different Shia person has their own set of beliefs?

Yes, to be a "Shia" is to curse the companions, especially Abu Bakr (ra) - its called Tabarra, or haven't you heard of it?
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 15, 2014, 01:45:36 AM
Just got a few minutes before i finish my break.   Brothers Khoursani and Taha, to be a shia is it compulsory not to put (ra) with companions of the Prophet (pbuh)??? Is it among the Shia principals, rules and regulations that certain companions of the Prophet (pbuh) have to be spoken about and discussed in this particular manner only??? Everybody has their own language, tone and way they want to use when speaking about certain individuals. This is mine. The moderators and certain members of this forum and especially the Haq Char Yaar forum, who are you me or anyone else to decide who is what and who isn't what. Each and every individual knows who and what they are. We can call whp ever we want what ever we want. But calling someone by any particular name or giving someone our desired identity, doesn't make that person become that.

See what we mean when we say that every different Shia person has their own set of beliefs?

Yes, to be a "Shia" is to curse the companions, especially Abu Bakr (ra) - its called Tabarra, or haven't you heard of it?

I would love to answer this but i will get accused of going off topic. Brpther Hani won't be saying anything to you. So you can carry on as long as you like and wish.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 15, 2014, 01:50:46 AM

Can I answer?

*raises hand*

Pick me! Pick me!

Oh what the hell - is it "Sharah" Nahjul Balagha by the "Sunni" scholar Ibn Abi al-Hadid?

I like how the great Shia scholar who wrote this article has disguised it so well.


Hahaha, there you go, that's him, the Mu`tazili Shi`ee.

So Mr ha ha ha and hee hee hee, are you npt going off topic here??? Ooops, you're the global mpderator, you're incharge, so you can't  be going wrong a ywhere.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 15, 2014, 02:11:45 AM

So Mr ha ha ha and hee hee hee, are you npt going off topic here??? Ooops, you're the global mpderator, you're incharge, so you can't  be going wrong a ywhere.


Hey I'm a cheerful guy, what can I say...


Quote
are you npt going off topic here??? Ooops


No, I'm commenting on the source you gave, which you didn't know its author or the book's name, you listed him as a "Sunni reference" even though he's a Mu`tazili Shia.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 15, 2014, 04:01:09 AM

So Mr ha ha ha and hee hee hee, are you npt going off topic here??? Ooops, you're the global mpderator, you're incharge, so you can't  be going wrong a ywhere.


Hey I'm a cheerful guy, what can I say...


Quote
are you npt going off topic here??? Ooops


No, I'm commenting on the source you gave, which you didn't know its author or the book's name, you listed him as a "Sunni reference" even though he's a Mu`tazili Shia.

A bit too cheerful wouldn't you say. But anyways, let me hurray you! Ok, so what is the books name and who is the author??? Mu'tazili Shia??? who are they???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 15, 2014, 04:27:28 AM
Your words,

 "My answer is, they didn't need Fadak because it wasn't the only source to fund the Muslims, there were plenty of other ways that they funded the armies."

My reply,

If they didn't need Fadak then what was their source of income to run government??? Where and from what source did the funds come from for them to run the state affairs??? How was the Muslim army funded???
With references please, thank you!

Your words,

"I add, if Fadak was the only source of funding as you claim, why'd he give it to Fatimah thus depriving the nation of an essential resource and key to military success?"

My reply,

When you decide to run a project, mission, company, organisation or government then, it is down to you to look for or create the income/funding. But humans, even nowa days look for the most easiest and cheapest route and way, so they don't have to make an effort or much effort. Looking for ways to grab on to some ones rights, property or belongings is not the way forward.

 Let me give you an example, why did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Khateeja (sa)??? Was Khateeja's (sa) wealth not used by the Prophet (pbuh) to fund Islamic projects and missions??? This is the way forward and everything was done by the will of Khateeja (sa). There is a right way of doing something and a wrong way of doing it. Or did the Prophet (pbuh) have other resources and didn't rely on and need Khateeja's (sa) wealth???

Your words,

Also, if Fadak belonged to Fatimah during the life of the Prophet (saw), no one had a right to take from it to fund the army, which means the Muslims remained during his life without any funding because the Prophet (saw) handed the only means of income to his daughter.

My reply,

Now when the following verse was revealed:

"And give unto one who is of Kin (to thee) that which is due”(17:26)

What did the Prophet (pbuh) to demonstrate this??? When prayers, fasting, zaka'ath etc was made compulsory,  the Prophet (pbuh) showed people by demonstrating how they should pray, fast etc. When this verse was revealed how did the Prophet (pbuh) demonstrate it??? It's obvious that the Prophet (pbuh) must have showed the Muslims! So what did he do and how did he do it??? What is the Ahle Sunnah point of view????????????
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: sword_of_sunnah on December 15, 2014, 09:01:20 AM
The decisive word on Fadak and Inheritance of Prophet Muhammad(saw).
http://youpuncturedtheark.wordpress.com/2014/09/11/the-decisive-word-on-fadak-and-inheritance-of-prophet-muhammadsaw/
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 15, 2014, 01:53:01 PM
Ok, so what is the books name and who is the author??? Mu'tazili Shia??? who are they???


"Sharh Nahj-ul-Balaghah" is a book written to interpret the popular Nahj-ul-Balaghah, this is the earliest interpretation for this book and the main one used by Shia scholars.


The author Ibn abi al-Hadeed is Mu`tazili in his Usoul and a Shia in his orientation.


Thus NOT A SUNNI SOURCE.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 15, 2014, 03:07:09 PM
SubhanAllah, let me repeat,


Quote
If they didn't need Fadak then what was their source of income to run government??? Where and from what source did the funds come from for them to run the state affairs??? How was the Muslim army funded???
With references please, thank you!


And we said the Muslims fought countless wars before Fadak was acquired without any funding issues, Muslims lands were large and wide.



Quote
Let me give you an example, why did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Khateeja (sa)??? Was Khateeja's (sa) wealth not used by the Prophet (pbuh) to fund Islamic projects and missions??? This is the way forward and everything was done by the will of Khateeja (sa). There is a right way of doing something and a wrong way of doing it. Or did the Prophet (pbuh) have other resources and didn't rely on and need Khateeja's (sa) wealth???


Khadeeja's wealth was useful ONLY at the very beginning of the Da`wah, later it never served any purpose. The believers also paid with their own wealth, such as Abu Bakr and `Uthman who also paid large sums of money to help prepare Muslim armies and buy slaves and wells.


If Khadeeja's wealth was sufficient he (saw) would not have needed to rely on the wealth of the believers.


Quote
"And give unto one who is of Kin (to thee) that which is due”(17:26)


What did the Prophet (pbuh) to demonstrate this??? When prayers, fasting, zaka'ath etc was made compulsory,  the Prophet (pbuh) showed people by demonstrating how they should pray, fast etc. When this verse was revealed how did the Prophet (pbuh) demonstrate it??? It's obvious that the Prophet (pbuh) must have showed the Muslims! So what did he do and how did he do it??? What is the Ahle Sunnah point of view????????????


I need to go now, I'll show you later what Ahlul-Sunnah's view is, make sure to remind me.


(Narration about him giving it to Fatimah (as) has fabricated chains)
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 15, 2014, 08:53:15 PM
Abu Bakar (ra)

I thought you were a Shi`ah???? :o

Off topic brother but i have answered it.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 16, 2014, 04:04:32 AM

I thought you were a Shi`ah???? :o

He is a Shia. He even use ra for Muawiyah.

I don't know the reason :)

Isn't this off topic bro??? Since you mention and point out a lot about off topic.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 16, 2014, 04:37:29 AM
, lSubhanAllahet me repeat,


Quote
If they didn't need Fadak then what was their source of income to run government??? Where and from what source did the funds come from for them to run the state affairs??? How was the Muslim army funded???
With references please, thank you!


And we said the Muslims fought countless wars before Fadak was acquired without any funding issues, Muslims lands were large and wide.



Quote
Let me give you an example, why did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Khateeja (sa)??? Was Khateeja's (sa) wealth not used by the Prophet (pbuh) to fund Islamic projects and missions??? This is the way forward and everything was done by the will of Khateeja (sa). There is a right way of doing something and a wrong way of doing it. Or did the Prophet (pbuh) have other resources and didn't rely on and need Khateeja's (sa) wealth???


Khadeeja's wealth was useful ONLY at the very beginning of the Da`wah, later it never served any purpose. The believers also paid with their own wealth, such as Abu Bakr and `Uthman who also paid large sums of money to help prepare Muslim armies and buy slaves and wells.


If Khadeeja's wealth was sufficient he (saw) would not have needed to rely on the wealth of the believers.


Quote
"And give unto one who is of Kin (to thee) that which is due”(17:26)


What did the Prophet (pbuh) to demonstrate this??? When prayers, fasting, zaka'ath etc was made compulsory,  the Prophet (pbuh) showed people by demonstrating how they should pray, fast etc. When this verse was revealed how did the Prophet (pbuh) demonstrate it??? It's obvious that the Prophet (pbuh) must have showed the Muslims! So what did he do and how did he do it??? What is the Ahle Sunnah point of view????????????


I need to go now, I'll show you later what Ahlul-Sunnah's view is, make sure to remind me.


(Narration about him giving it to Fatimah (as) has fabricated chains)

You said,

"SubhanAllaha let me repeat, And we said the Muslims fought countless wars before Fadak was acquired without any funding issues, Muslims lands were large and wide".

My reply,

Rather than just repeating put forward references, which I have already asked for, to back your claim. Otherwise it's just words and nothing more.

You said,

"Khadeeja's wealth was useful ONLY at the very beginning of the Da`wah, later it never served any purpose. The believers also paid with their own wealth, such as Abu Bakr and `Uthman who also paid large sums of money to help prepare Muslim armies and buy slaves and wells."

My reply,

What do you mean by" USEFUL ONLY and LATER IT NEVER SERVED ANY PURPOSE"???

It sounds like you want to water and wash Khadeeja's (sa) commitments and contributions down and make them look so little and small by the words you are using. Where would Islam and the Muslims be, if it wasn't for Khateeja's (sa) wealth??? Secondly the two names you have mentioned were also their at the very beginning of Islam, where was their financial commitments and contributions and the very beginning???

You said,

"If Khadeeja's wealth was sufficient he (saw) would not have needed to rely on the wealth of the believers."

My reply,

Where was the wealth of these believers when it was most urgent and needed at the very beginning??? The Lady and her wealth is being undermined here and the believers are being pushed up, who played no role by the sounds of it at the very beginning.

The two great ladies Khadeeja (sa) and Fatimah (sa), it was because of the first's wealth that Islam and the Muslims grew and prevailed. And it was due to the second's wealth that Khilafath and the Muslims were secured. This is reality and facts. Anything other than this has to be proven, otherwise it's just words.


"


"
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 16, 2014, 01:12:40 PM
There's a limit to how weak a person's reply can be, you reached that limit so I won't answer anything in your last post, believe it or not nothing there merits an answer because the answer to all your questions is either something that is common sense, something which is common knowledge or something you can easily find out by using google for five minutes.


When you bring us important valuable questions we'll address them, until then peace.


Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Husayn on December 17, 2014, 12:58:05 AM
Hani,

Is it possible to just create a thread for Ameen, where he can post whatever questions he wants, rather than have him spamming 10 threads?
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 04:18:18 AM
There's a limit to how weak a person's reply can be, you reached that limit so I won't answer anything in your last post, believe it or not nothing there merits an answer because the answer to all your questions is either something that is common sense, something which is common knowledge or something you can easily find out by using google for five minutes.


When you bring us important valuable questions we'll address them, until then peace.

I asked you for references as evidence and proof for you to back your claims but you give me a childish response in return. Bravo! Well done! Weak reply??? Well a weak reply is something put forward without any references and that applies to your post/s. It's not that "you won't answer", it's actually "you can't answer", well for the time being that is. Five minutes??? Well it takes you less than five minutes to slander, attack, humiliate, insult, pick on, be sarcastic towards and to issue challenges to Shiaism and the Shias. But take all the time you need my friend. You have a lot to answer. Keep this in mind, you are falling behind. You are intelligent and I'm sure you can do better, much better than these childish responses.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 04:31:16 AM
Did The Prophet (Pbuh) Present The Land To Fatimah (sa) ?

The Prophet (pbuh) in his life time with the instructions from Allah the almighty presented this Land to Hazrath Fatimah (sa), as is found in the Commentary of the respected Sunni Scholar, Jalaluddin al-Suyuti. Here is the historical background for the Land of Fadak, and after that is the text for the Tafseer for the Verse 26 Chapter XVII.

Imam ‘Ali (as) was sent to Fadak, a Jewish town not far from Khaibar to take it. But, before the use of any force, the inhabitants tendered their submission, ceding half of their property to the prophet (pbuh). When the Angel Gabriel revealed to the Prophet the Divine Command as in the Verse 26 of Chapter XVII (17)

"And give unto one who is of Kin (to thee) that which is due”(17:26)

and the Prophet (pbuh) asked as to who was meant as "being of Kin". the Angel named Hazrath Fatimah (sa) and told the Prophet (pbuh) to give Fadak to her (as), as the Income from Fadak belonged wholly to him on account of its being ceded to him without the use of force. the Prophet (pbuh) accordingly bestowed upon Hazrath Fatimah (sa) his estate of Fadak for the subsistence of herself and her children.

With reference to the above Qur’anic Verse, many Sunni commentators have written that:

when the Verse was revealed, the Holy Prophet (Pbuh) asked the Angel Gabriel: "Who are the Kinsmen and what is their due?”The Angel Gibrael replied "Give Fadak to Fatimah for it is her due, and whatever is due to Allah and the Prophet (Pbuh) out of Fadak, that also belongs to her, so entrust to her also."

The above is narrated through al Bazzar, Abu Yala, Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn Marduwayh and others from Abu Said al Khudri and through Ibn Marduwayh from Abdullah ibn al Abbas for the above verse.

Sunni references:

- Tafsir Durr al-Mansur, v4, p177
- Kanz al-Ummal, v2, p158
- Sawaiq al Muhriqah Chapter 15 p 21-22
- Rozatul Safaa vol 2 p 135
- Sharah e Muwaqif p 735
- Tareekh Ahmadi p45
- Ruh al ma’ani, vol 15 p 62

It leaves no room for us to believe that the Land of Fadak was not the personal belonging of Hazrath Fatimah (sa)!

Historians also write that

Certainly, Abu Bakar (ra) snatched Fadak from Fatimah (sa)

Sunni references:

- Sharah, vol 16 p 219

- Wafa al Wafa (as Samhudi), vol 3 p1000

- Sawaiq al Muhriqah, p 32

If anybody claims that the above story is no where to be found in the hadith books, I would like you to refer to these books, that are termed as authentic and reliable by the Sunni scholars that contains the very event that you have had mentioned.

- Commentary of the Qur’an by Fakhr al-Din al-Razi , v8, p125 (Under the Tafseer of Surah Hashr)
- Sawaiq al-Muhriqah by Ibn Hajar Haythmi, p21

Fatimah (sa) raised a voice when Fadak was stolen from her, protesting to Abu Bakar (ra), she said:

You have taken over possesion of Fadak although the Prophet had gifted it to me during his life time.

On this Abu Bakar (ra) asked her to produce witnesses of the gift. Consequently, Imam ‘Ali (as) and Umm Ayman gave evidence on her favor. Umm Ayman was the freed bond maid and the dry nurse for the Holy Prophet (pbuh), She was the mother of Usamah ibn Zayd ibn al Harith. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) usted to say Umm Ayman is my mother after my mother. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) also bore witness that she is among the people of paradise.

Sunni references:

- al Mustadrak, vol 4 p 63
- History of Tabari, vol 3 p 3460
- al Istiab, vol 4 p 1793
- Usud al Ghabah, vol 5 p 567
- Tabaqat, vol 8 p 192
- al Isabah, vol 4 p 432

My dear brother Hani, all the references I've given you here, are you telling me they have all turned in to Shias or are influenced by Shiaism??? Dear audience/viewers take this in to account, we have Ahle Sunnah authentic books, let me repeat, not just Ahle Sunnah but also labelled authentic by themselves. Now when ever a Shia comes along and provides a reference from these books to back their claim then, one of the following is said:
Either the narration goes under suspicion and doubt or the writer is accused of being influenced by Shiaism. But the book still stays, remains and continues to be labelled authentic. And reference from books are still used by the Ahle Sunnah to back their claims. But when it comes to Shias, suspicion is raised and doubt is cast. Suddenly the writers have turned in to Mutazilla Shias.????? Well I've definitely heard of, know and social with Mutazilla Sunnis but Shias???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 04:44:55 AM
Just got a few minutes before i finish my break.   Brothers Khoursani and Taha, to be a shia is it compulsory not to put (ra) with companions of the Prophet (pbuh)??? Is it among the Shia principals, rules and regulations that certain companions of the Prophet (pbuh) have to be spoken about and discussed in this particular manner only??? Everybody has their own language, tone and way they want to use when speaking about certain individuals. This is mine. The moderators and certain members of this forum and especially the Haq Char Yaar forum, who are you me or anyone else to decide who is what and who isn't what. Each and every individual knows who and what they are. We can call whp ever we want what ever we want. But calling someone by any particular name or giving someone our desired identity, doesn't make that person become that.

See what we mean when we say that every different Shia person has their own set of beliefs?

Yes, to be a "Shia" is to curse the companions, especially Abu Bakr (ra) - its called Tabarra, or haven't you heard of it?

Different Shia person has their own set of beliefs??? This is where you are wrong by misunderstanding and misconception. Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ath are a group of people put together with differences of all kinds, Faith, belief, sect, groups, school of thought and political movement. The Shias are not as such. Their are no groups or sects etc with in Shias. But you can say and must say that different groups and sects call themselves Shias. The two statements are absolutely different and have the opposite meaning. To be Shia you do not have to curse anyone. Cursing is permissible and allowed. And Tabarra, yes I have heard of it. This was done in early Islam during Jamal and Safeen. It was an act that was practiced in Damascus, Syria during the Umayad dynasty. It was made compulsory during friday prayers on and against Hazrath Ali (as). Well that is what is in history. I will provide references.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 04:56:13 AM
اسلام علیکم


They are Ahle Sunnah well known scholars and those are Ahle Sunnah authentic books. Now there is something called research, putting both arguments forward, seeing and looking at things with an open mind etc.

Have you really done your research? Then name the author of the book 'Sharah' and quote Arabic texts for other references. If you can't do that then tell us. Nothing wrong with it.  After all we are humans and make mistake.


You're quoting from a book, don't you know who its author is? I asked you a simple question brother. Answer me as far as this Sunni source called "Sharah".


As for al-Wafa and al-Sawa`iq, I'd like to know WHERE they wrote "Certainly, Abu Bakar (ra) snatched Fadak from Fatimah (sa)."


Can you provide the Arabic texts of these statements? Otherwise, they're unacceptable in this format you presented, and IF it should turn out that they never said such things, then do you prefer to be accused of "Lying" or "Ignorance"?

+1

I am sure you are well capable of looking them up and if they come out to be wrong then you would be quick to bring them forward and clarify the matter. Unacceptable in this format??? Accused of lying or ignorance??? Why don't you look them up then by all means clarify the matter with your big talk. I'm sure the audience/viewers would be keen to see and know.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 04:57:46 AM
Hani,

Is it possible to just create a thread for Ameen, where he can post whatever questions he wants, rather than have him spamming 10 threads?

That would be really nice. But the question is "ARE THE TOP GUNS UP FOR IT???"
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 17, 2014, 02:52:21 PM
Hani,

Is it possible to just create a thread for Ameen, where he can post whatever questions he wants, rather than have him spamming 10 threads?


That won't be very practical haha, I can just imagine : )


As far as this thread we've reached a dead end, when I feel that a person is asking just for the sake of it I lose interest.


He can review the detailed Fadak research on our website: http://twelvershia.net/detailed-research-on-prophetic-inheritance/
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 03:59:38 PM
Hani,

Is it possible to just create a thread for Ameen, where he can post whatever questions he wants, rather than have him spamming 10 threads?


That won't be very practical haha, I can just imagine : )


As far as this thread we've reached a dead end, when I feel that a person is asking just for the sake of it I lose interest.


He can review the detailed Fadak research on our website: http://twelvershia.net/detailed-research-on-prophetic-inheritance/

Dear audience/viewers, here you have our beloved brother Hani, the global moderator. He is just not the global moderator but he is also the judge, the jury and the executioner all in one and all by himself. Just what can we say about. Bravo brother Hani and well done. Thank you very much for such a beautiful challenge.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 17, 2014, 04:11:21 PM
Dear audience/viewers, here you have our beloved brother Hani, the global moderator. He is just not the global moderator but he is also the judge, the jury and the executioner all in one and all by himself. Just what can we say about. Bravo brother Hani and well done. Thank you very much for such a beautiful challenge.


Wait wait... you come here, we welcome you, you ask unqualified questions (according to me) and you want to force me to answer?


I didn't lock the thread, nor did I ban you, nor did I delete your posts, I just said I don't think your questions are of any value so I respectfully refrained from answering them.


Then you conclude I'm judge, jury and executioner???


You think that if your questions posed any threat to the religion or if I thought they'd confuse any Muslim or make him doubt, do you think I'd leave them unanswered? The reason I left them is because they're seriously not worth answering.


So wait for someone else to bother answering or ask something more intelligent.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 06:12:58 PM
Dear audience/viewers, here you have our beloved brother Hani, the global moderator. He is just not the global moderator but he is also the judge, the jury and the executioner all in one and all by himself. Just what can we say about. Bravo brother Hani and well done. Thank you very much for such a beautiful challenge.


Wait wait... you come here, we welcome you, you ask unqualified questions (according to me) and you want to force me to answer?


I didn't lock the thread, nor did I ban you, nor did I delete your posts, I just said I don't think your questions are of any value so I respectfully refrained from answering them.


Then you conclude I'm judge, jury and executioner???


You think that if your questions posed any threat to the religion or if I thought they'd confuse any Muslim or make him doubt, do you think I'd leave them unanswered? The reason I left them is because they're seriously not worth answering.


So wait for someone else to bother answering or ask something more intelligent.

Hold on a minute cowboy, to ban or delete etc, you need a genuine reason to do that, what reason have i given you??? Any principals that i have violated??? Or any rules and regulations that i have broken??? It's your side kicks on Shiachat who issue challenges by your name and on your behalf and you start to and make excuses. I just asked you for references for you to prove your claim, that's all. What's the crime here??? What seems to be the problem??? You can carry on trying to derail the subject and to avoid me with your excuses but the audience/viewers are watching and keep this in mind. You're not doing yourself any favours by behaving in such a manner. If you and other brothers concerned can't answer then, just say so. Don't go beating around the bush.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: MuslimK on December 17, 2014, 06:21:39 PM
SubhanAllah, let me repeat,

And we said the Muslims fought countless wars before Fadak was acquired without any funding issues, Muslims lands were large and wide.


My reply,

Rather than just repeating put forward references, which I have already asked for, to back your claim. Otherwise it's just words and nothing more.


Salam Alaikum,

Really? You want references for that?

Brother your comment shows you have little or poor knowledge of the Seerah of the Prophet (saw). Please read any Seerah book; learn something about the life of the Prophet (saw) and the conquests and battles that took place during his (saw) time.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 17, 2014, 06:27:11 PM
Salaam to dear audience/viewers. I asked brother Hani about verse (17:26), "And give unto one who is of kin to thee that which is due", when this verse was revealed what did the Prophet (pbuh) do to demonstrate to the Muslims??? It was his (pbuh) duty to show the Muslims what and how to do this. I asked brother Hani the Ahle Sunnah aqeeda on this and he asked me to remind him for answer. Now dear audience/viewers, what crime have i committed here??? What seems to be the problem??? If he can't answer then' why doesn't he say so??? What's with the attitude??? I rest my case with you.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: MuslimK on December 17, 2014, 06:46:30 PM
Salaam to dear audience/viewers. I asked brother Hani about verse (17:26), "And give unto one who is of kin to thee that which is due", when this verse was revealed what did the Prophet (pbuh) do to demonstrate to the Muslims??? It was his (pbuh) duty to show the Muslims what and how to do this. I asked brother Hani the Ahle Sunnah aqeeda on this and he asked me to remind him for answer. Now dear audience/viewers, what crime have i committed here??? What seems to be the problem??? If he can't answer then' why doesn't he say so??? What's with the attitude??? I rest my case with you.

Walaikum Salam,

He already posted a link for you to read:
http://twelvershia.net/2014/05/08/prophetic-inheritance-qa/
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 17, 2014, 10:56:24 PM
Salaam to dear audience/viewers. I asked brother Hani about verse (17:26), "And give unto one who is of kin to thee that which is due", when this verse was revealed what did the Prophet (pbuh) do to demonstrate to the Muslims??? It was his (pbuh) duty to show the Muslims what and how to do this. I asked brother Hani the Ahle Sunnah aqeeda on this and he asked me to remind him for answer. Now dear audience/viewers, what crime have i committed here??? What seems to be the problem??? If he can't answer then' why doesn't he say so??? What's with the attitude??? I rest my case with you.
 


Oh yes I had asked you to remind me of chapter 17 verse 26, so I'll answer this one for you because I promised you that I would earlier.

The verses say the following:

And your Lord has decreed that you not worship except Him, and to parents, good treatment. Whether one or both of them reach old age [while] with you, say not to them [so much as], "uff," and do not repel them but speak to them a noble word. (23) And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, "My Lord, have mercy upon them as they brought me up [when I was] small." (24) Your Lord is most knowing of what is within yourselves. If you should be righteous [in intention] - then indeed He is ever, to the often returning [to Him], Forgiving. (25) And give the relative his right, and [also] the poor and the traveler, and do not spend wastefully. (26) Indeed, the wasteful are brothers of the devils, and ever has Satan been to his Lord ungrateful. (27) And if you [must] turn away from the needy awaiting mercy from your Lord which you expect, then speak to them a gentle word. (28) And do not make your hand [as] chained to your neck or extend it completely and [thereby] become blamed and insolvent. (29)

This verse orders ever believer to give his relatives, the poor and the travelers their rights, and to not spend one's wealth wastefully nor be miserly.
According to you, the Prophet (saw) wanted to illustrate this to the believers, so he went and gave a huge piece of land to his daughter Fatimah (as).

I say this is incorrect, it makes no sense at all.

First of all, because it is telling him to give the relatives their rights, and the relatives are all those who are related to you from your father and mother's side, so why did he (saw) ignore all of them and only give Fatimah (as) this land?
Secondly, it says to not be wasteful, and I see this action as being greatly wasteful, a big piece of land that everyone can benefit from, he (saw) takes it and gives it to his daughter thus leaving everyone else out.
Thirdly, it says to give them their "right", and a "right" of a person is something which is due to him or something belonging to him. Who says that Fadak is the "right"  of Fatimah (as)? The "right" of the poor is to give them charity and speak to them in respect, the right of the traveler is to feed him and honor him during his stay, so now what's the right of near relatives? To give them big pieces of land? Or to give them precedence, to be responsible for them and to keep close relations with them?
Now obviously, Rasul-Allah (saw) used to be responsible for his relatives, he would keep ties with them by visiting, he would care about their condition and ask people to treat them with goodness after he dies, he would give them portions from seeds and vegetables produced by the Muslim lands, so no issue in this regard.
If you wish to say that the verse is referring to Khums and that this is why Allah said "their right" since they have a share from the Khums, I say the verse isn't related to "Khums" simply because this is not mentioned in the verse, it is a general statement about rights not related to Khums, also Fadak would not be included since it was a part of the Fay' not a part of the Khums.
Now that this is out of the way, I don't see how giving the relatives their right translates to offering a rich piece of land to his daughter. Is this why the Prophet (saw) was sent? To acquire great wealth and give his family?
Moreover, I checked the biggest books of Tafseer, Tabari, Zamakhshari and Razi. None of them even listed this narration you speak of, it's as if it didn't exist.
So now I have to find where you got this amazing narration so I can judge its chain, and while searching for your narration I found others with authentic chains clearly explaining what is intended by this verse, such as this one in Musnad Ahmad:
حَدَّثَنَا هَاشِمُ بْنُ الْقَاسِمِ، حَدَّثَنَا لَيْثٌ، عَنْ خَالِدِ بْنِ يَزِيدَ، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ أَبِي هِلَالٍ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ: أَتَى رَجُلٌ مِنْ بَنِي تَمِيمٍ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ  فَقَالَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، إِنِّي ذُو مَالٍ كَثِيرٍ، وَذُو أَهْلٍ وَوَلَدٍ وَحَاضِرَةٍ فَأَخْبِرْنِي كَيْفَ أُنْفِقُ، وَكَيْفَ أَصْنَعُ؟، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ : " تُخْرِجُ الزَّكَاةَ مِنْ مَالِكَ، فَإِنَّهَا طُهْرَةٌ تُطَهِّرُكَ، وَتَصِلُ أَقْرِبَاءَكَ، وَتَعْرِفُ حَقَّ السَّائِلِ وَالْجَارِ وَالْمِسْكِينِ "، فَقَالَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، أَقْلِلْ لِي، قَالَ: " فَآتِ ذَا الْقُرْبَى حَقَّهُ، وَالْمِسْكِينَ، وَابْنَ السَّبِيلِ، وَلَا تُبَذِّرْ تَبْذِيرًا "، فَقَالَ: حَسْبِي يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، إِذَا أَدَّيْتُ الزَّكَاةَ إِلَى رَسُولِكَ، فَقَدْ بَرِئْتُ مِنْهَا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ؟، فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ : " نَعَمْ، إِذَا أَدَّيْتَهَا إِلَى رَسُولِي فَقَدْ بَرِئْتَ مِنْهَا، فَلَكَ أَجْرُهَا، وَإِثْمُهَا عَلَى مَنْ بَدَّلَهَا
[A man from banu Tameem came to the Prophet (saw), he said: "O Rasul-Allah (saw), I have a lot of money, and I have a family and children and neighbors, how should I spend my money?" He (saw) said: "Give the Zakat of your money as it shall purify you, and keep close ties with your relatives, and know the right of the beggar and the neighbor and the poor." The man said: "O Rasul-Allah (saw), can you make it shorter?" He (saw) said: {And give the relative his right, and [also] the poor and the traveler, and do not spend wastefully.} The man said: "Is it sufficient for me to offer my Zakat to your messenger etc...]
Anyway, I finally found this narration of yours, it mainly comes from this chain:
سَعِيدِ بْنِ خُثَيْمٍ، عَنْ فُضَيْلٍ، عَنْ عَطِيَّةَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ
[...from Sa`eed bin Khaytham, from Fudayl bin Marzouq, from `Atiyyah al-`Awfi, from abu Sa`eed...]
The first thing we notice is that this narration only comes through the path of these three Shia narrators, neither one of them is Thiqah(reliable), Sa`eed is a relatively unknown narrator and there is no harm in his narration, Fudayl is also Saduq, `Atiyyah is weak and his Hadith is rejected.
So the Tafarrud of this Shia trio who are all unqualified narrators is unacceptable and the Hadith is very weak.

Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 21, 2014, 09:56:54 AM
Brother Hani, thank you very much for your reply. This is all i was asking for. A positve and constructive reply rather than down talking and/or disregarding. Brother just as you reject and turn down everything i say, well i can do just the same and just as well. But this is what normally happens when discussion takes place between two individuals, with different belief and faith about various matters. I am not going to do this since i want the discussion to move forward. Otherwise you will continue to turn down what i say and i will do the same, due to our difference.
To be continued!
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 21, 2014, 03:39:46 PM
Continued!

Brother Hani, there are a few points i would like to put forward. 1, What is your belief about Fadak??? What happened according to you??? If you could put forward your side of the story, what you believe in then that would be appreciated, so i could compare the two sides and get down to what really happened. 2, What is your exact standard on deciding which narrations and hadiths are strong and which are weak??? What is acceptable and what not and why??? 3, How do you calculate and know which narrator is/was a Shia and who wasn't??? How do you come about to such a conclusion and decision??? 4, Does your belief and faith, thought, opinion and point of view play a major role in all this to begin with??? Or do you have a fair, just, equal and balanced mind and policy about such things???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 22, 2014, 03:09:00 AM
al-Salamu `Aleykum,


You ask me my personal opinion but do not forget one thing, I have a big research I did myself and I have filled it with my opinions and thoughts with addition to evidence and references:
http://twelvershia.net/detailed-research-on-prophetic-inheritance/


As for Fadak, it is from the Fay' that was in Rasul-Allah's (saw) hands, and he spent from it on the Muslims, then it was turned into a Waqf for the believers and it was not inherited.


As for reliability of narrators, I use moderate popular standards that are adopted by the experts of today's scholars of Hadith.


As for identifying the Shi`e narrators, the scholars and historians who documented a person will write in his Tarjamah if he belonged to any of the sects.


As for my research it does not contain any bias, rather it takes into consideration the Qur'an and the Sunnah and what has reached us from evidence through the most authentic of reliable books.



Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 22, 2014, 11:26:24 PM
Salaam brother Hani.

I am just going through the link you have provided me. In the first part/chapter there is a popular narration that has been mentioned, the Prophet (pbuh) said,

"We do not offer inheritance, what we leave behind is charity".

This has also been mentioned in the link that the opposition (Shia) use false and fabricated narrations and or hadiths  to justify their claim. Now you would accept that certain narrations and or hadiths have been fabricated and or are exaggerated, are weak etc.

Now if one said that this particular narration, which has been labelled popular, we do not accept it, we see it as false and or fabricated, made up etc. But could you please prove your case by providing us with a reference direct and only from the Quran, a very clear verse which says that,

"Prophets and or Messengers do not leave anything behind as or for inheritance, to be inherited. What they do leave behind is for charity and for charitable purpose only"

So there is no room left for any suspicion and doubt about the matter what so ever. Could you do this??? Look forward to hearing from you.

Was salaam!
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 23, 2014, 01:23:58 AM
This has also been mentioned in the link that the opposition (Shia) use false and fabricated narrations and or hadiths  to justify their claim. Now you would accept that certain narrations and or hadiths have been fabricated and or are exaggerated, are weak etc.

Now if one said that this particular narration, which has been labelled popular, we do not accept it, we see it as false and or fabricated, made up etc. But could you please prove your case by providing us with a reference direct and only from the Quran, a very clear verse which says that,

"Prophets and or Messengers do not leave anything behind as or for inheritance, to be inherited. What they do leave behind is for charity and for charitable purpose only"


Salam,


The entire research depends on narrations, all the details are in the narrations and you want us to drop them all? When you ask for Qur'anic evidence you should be asking about a matter from Usoul-ul-Deen, a matter of great importance for Muslims to believe, not a very minor Fiqhi ruling that doesn't affect the life of any Muslim.


If the matter was solely restricted to the Qur'an we wouldn't even have a problem in the first place, because no Qur'anic verse mentions that Fatimah (as) went to Abu Bakr nor does any Qur'anic verse mention that Abu Bakr prevented Fatimah (as) from taking possession of any lands.


So this matter is mainly related to Hadith and the only way to investigate it is to refer to Hadith.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 02:38:06 AM
This has also been mentioned in the link that the opposition (Shia) use false and fabricated narrations and or hadiths  to justify their claim. Now you would accept that certain narrations and or hadiths have been fabricated and or are exaggerated, are weak etc.

Now if one said that this particular narration, which has been labelled popular, we do not accept it, we see it as false and or fabricated, made up etc. But could you please prove your case by providing us with a reference direct and only from the Quran, a very clear verse which says that,

"Prophets and or Messengers do not leave anything behind as or for inheritance, to be inherited. What they do leave behind is for charity and for charitable purpose only"


Salam,


The entire research depends on narrations, all the details are in the narrations and you want us to drop them all? When you ask for Qur'anic evidence you should be asking about a matter from Usoul-ul-Deen, a matter of great importance for Muslims to believe, not a very minor Fiqhi ruling that doesn't affect the life of any Muslim.


If the matter was solely restricted to the Qur'an we wouldn't even have a problem in the first place, because no Qur'anic verse mentions that Fatimah (as) went to Abu Bakr nor does any Qur'anic verse mention that Abu Bakr prevented Fatimah (as) from taking possession of any lands.


So this matter is mainly related to Hadith and the only way to investigate it is to refer to Hadith.

So at the end of the day each sect have and believe in their own side of the story. This is what it all boils down to. You believe in your side of the story and anything that goes against that you consider fabricated and false. Well this can also apply from the other side as well.

So this popular narration that the Prophet (pbuh) said,

"we do not offer inheritance, what we leave is charity",

it could as well just be made up. If this was true then one thing comes in to mind that, why would Fatimah (sa) go to Abu Bakar (ra) in the first place to ask for inheritance??? Wouldn't she be aware of this to begin with??? Wouldn't she be familiar of her father's saying???

Why would she go to Abu Bakar (ra) in the first place when this is a personal matter of her side of the family??? He wasn't just a Prophet (pbuh) but was also a father, husband, neighbour etc. so I'm sure things did apply to him considering other roles in his life.

Many more questions can arise but this is enough that there is nothing clear. All we have is two sides of the argument, one going against the other. In the Holy Quran issues have been discussed and explained clearly about civil matters and problems and how to address them, like when it comes to inheritance the male (son) receives two shares where as the woman (daughter) receives one. Other matters have been explained as well but it is strange that such a clear matter as

"Prophets and or Messengers do not leave inheritance or anything to be inherited, what they leave behind is for charity and for charitable purpose",

Nothing is to be found in the Holy Quran. Brother many things have been said and discussed in the Quran which have got nothing to do with Usool E Deen or Faroo E Deen. So this explanation of yours doesn't make any sense. One will have to go with what is sensible and logical. If this narration was true and Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) knew about it then i'm sure Hazrath Fatimah (sa) would have known about it as well. And so would have Hazrath Ali (as) known about it as well.

There is absolutely no way Hazrath Fatimah (sa) and her husband wouldn't have been aware of this. Well the argument still stands and both parties are stuck with their version and side of the story.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: MuslimK on December 23, 2014, 02:52:27 AM

it could as well just be made up. If this was true then one thing comes in to mind that, why would Fatimah (sa) go to Abu Bakar (ra) in the first place to ask for inheritance??? Wouldn't she be aware of this to begin with??? Wouldn't she be familiar of her father's saying???

سلام علیکم

Is that something impossible?

Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 02:54:33 AM

it could as well just be made up. If this was true then one thing comes in to mind that, why would Fatimah (sa) go to Abu Bakar (ra) in the first place to ask for inheritance??? Wouldn't she be aware of this to begin with??? Wouldn't she be familiar of her father's saying???

سلام علیکم

Is that something impossible?

What is your opinion on this??? Did she ask for inheritance or not???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: MuslimK on December 23, 2014, 03:05:36 AM

What is your opinion on this??? Did she ask for inheritance or not???

سلام علیکم

Yes, She did ask.

You didn't answer my question.

Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 03:20:43 AM

it could as well just be made up. If this was true then one thing comes in to mind that, why would Fatimah (sa) go to Abu Bakar (ra) in the first place to ask for inheritance??? Wouldn't she be aware of this to begin with??? Wouldn't she be familiar of her father's saying???

سلام علیکم

Is that something impossible?

Why don't you tell me??? What do you think??? He was aware of it but she and her husband wasn't. I see this as more than impossible. This is exactly where sense and logic comes in. You are not aware of your father and I am more aware of him.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 03:26:16 AM

What is your opinion on this??? Did she ask for inheritance or not???

سلام علیکم

Yes, She did ask.

You didn't answer my question.

Why did she ask him??? What did he have to do with their personal matter??? Doesn't this sound strange to you??? Well may be it doesn't to you but it does to me. May be you feel the need to protect and defend someone, I don't feel the need to do that. What makes sense and what is logical goes for me. And how did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) run government??? Where did the finance and funding come from??? This still hasn't been answered.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 23, 2014, 05:11:57 PM
@Ameen,


I kind of read your posts quickly and what mainly caught my eye is when a brother asked you: "Is it impossible that Fatimah (as) didn't know this?" and you replied by telling him:


Quote
I see this as more than impossible.


This is where the real bias and real sectarian extremism comes in. I do not understand what is classified as "more than impossible", I know that impossible is usually the limit of what cannot be realized but to cross this limit shows a great extreme form of bias and sectarianism.


Your argument is simply summarized in that "How can Abu Bakr be more aware than Fatimah about her own father?"


First of all, a simple argument I can use against this, is that by consensus of Shia scholars Fatimah (as) was born after five years from Bi`thah, making her age 18 when she died.


Fatimah (as) died after 5-6 months from the Prophet (saw), which means she accompanied him for less than 18 years.


If you add to this the fact that Fatimah (as) was not aware nor mature until the age of 8, this means altogether she accompanied her father less than 10 years.


As for Abu Bakr, he accompanied the Prophet (saw) and was very close to him and was his adviser and right hand man throughout all his prophet-hood, which was 23 years.


It is also stated in all narrations that Abu Bakr and the Prophet (saw) were good friends and companions before the coming of Islam, and this is why Abu Bakr embraced Islam quickly and never questioned it. For how long they knew each other before Islam is not stated as far as I know, but if we put a minimal amount we'll say 5 years.


The above leaves us with the following:


-Fatimah (as) accompanied the Prophet (saw) for less than 10 years.


-Abu Bakr accompanied the Prophet (saw) for 28 or more years.


Now the above is really unnecessary and this isn't the reason why Muslims believe Abu Bakr knew and Fatimah (as) didn't.


The argument put forth by the Shia, that Fatimah (as) had to know more since she is his daughter, this is inaccurate and faulty. A lot of a man's life long friends know more about their lives, their habits, their ideas and their beliefs than his children. In fact a lot of times, when a man dies, his children would visit their father's friends and ask them about their father and his stories and experiences.


I add, that my father's friends know more about his occupation especially his own co-workers, if my father is a famous architect it doesn't mean I know more about architecture than my father's friends who worked by his side on projects.


Thirdly, it was reported that Fatimah (as) was from the most pious of people and her father (saw) loved her a lot, but it was never reported that she was a scholar nor from the people of knowledge nor did anyone seek to learn any religion from her throughout her life. As opposed to Abu Bakr who was known for his knowledge and deep understanding of prophetic-Sunnah and rulings of Islam and gave verdicts both during the life of the Prophet (saw) and after his death.


Fourthly, the amount of time the Prophet (saw) would spend alongside Abu Bakr during the day was more than the time he would spend with his married daughter. If your father was a president or a business man, you'll know this because you'll almost never see him at home, he would spend his day in the company, running the affairs and checking the strategies and attending the meetings and conferences, and he would travel often and be occupied most of his time because of the big responsibilities. Imagine a Prophet of Allah, how much more responsibilities does he have? He has to teach the simpletons their religion, attend to the needs of an entire nation, teach monotheism, debate deviants and pagans, plan wars strategies and alliances, teach Qur'anic recitation and Tafseer, offer wisdom to people, spend each night at the house of one of his wives, attend meetings with tribal leaders from all over the Arabian peninsula, participate personally in many battles, attend the five daily prayers at the Masjid and pray the voluntary prayers during the day and he used to pray much during the night etc... And who was by his side when he did all of this? His close companion and adviser Abu Bakr, not Fatimah (as) who was in her own house.


These four points are sufficient for now.







Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 07:18:27 PM
Brother Hani, you a accuse me of being bias and extreme. You use my statement of "more than impossible" and take it out  of context and use it to suit your ideology and point, you disregard all other points but just grab on to what suits you.

This is absolutely strange and extraordinary that all the other wives of the Prophet (pbuh) asked for inheritance as well and it took just one wife to remind all the rest about what the Prophet (pbuh) had said.

Isn't this strange that none of the other wives, who are just as important as Hazrath Aisha (ra) were not aware of the matter of inheritance about their husband but this one wife did???

You have more than one person asking and caiming for inheritance and no companion knew anything about what the Prophet (pbuh) said apart from just two people. Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) and his daughter (ra). No one else knew anything about it.

Tell me who is being extreme here and doing their best to back and cover the two and go against the entire rest.

We have a case and the only person to back one person involved in this case his Hazrath Aisha (ra), who happens to be the daughter of the first Khalif (ra) involved in the matter.

It obvious she is related closely to him and will take his side and defend him. How come no one else knew that the Prophet (pbuh) had said,

"we do not offer inheritance, what we leave behind is charity"???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 07:29:11 PM
Salaam dear audience/viewers. One needs to look at reality and facts, which are absolutely disregarded here.

Every family is concerned about inheritance and every family does discuss this matter amongst themselves.

The Prophet (pbuh) was also a father and a family man too. When he was in his final days, don't you think such important family matters would such as inheritance would have been discussed???

But Hazrath Fatimah (sa) and her husband wasn't aware of what the Prophet (pbuh ) had said. Nobody else was aware of it. Even all the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) were not aware of it and who also claimed inheritance.

 
How starnge??? 
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 23, 2014, 07:55:46 PM
Some misconceptions,


Regarding `A'ishah reminding the other wives, first of all she was the most knowledgeable of them, secondly none of them accused her of lying, thirdly they all agreed with her after they heard her statement. The Hadith says that she only reminded them:


ألم يقل رسول اله
[Didn't the Prophet (saw) say "such and such"?]


فرضين بقولها و تركن ذلك
[So they accepted her saying and abandoned the matter.]


Meaning, they were reminded and they confirmed what she said. Otherwise, they would have went and asked for it regardless of `A'isha's words.


Secondly, this is a statement that a lot of major Sahabah heard, all those present during the conflict of `Abbas and `Ali testified to it, including `Ali and `Abbas.


`Umar asked:


سمعتم النبي يقول
[By Allah who created the heavens and the earth, have you not heard Rasul-Allah (saw) say, "such and such"? They replied: "By Allah, we did."]


This included `Abdul-Rahman, Sa`d, `Uthman, Talhah, Zubayr in addition to `Abbas and `Ali who confirmed the same matter, as well as the narrator `Umar.


This was also reported in separate narrations by abu al-Darda', abu Hurayrah & Hudhayfah bin al-Yaman.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 23, 2014, 10:25:36 PM
Brother Hani, this is just one side of the story and there is nothing there that is sufficient enough to prove it. There is also a lot that explains the other side of the story which you absolutely and totally disregard.

But lets just look at the points. The Prophet (pbuh) is in his last days and nothing has been discussed a out inheritance.

Hazrath Fatimah (sa), Hazrath Ali (as), Hazrath Abbas (ra) and all the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) either didn't have a clue or had to be reminded of such an important saying of the Prophet (pbuh).

And this is not just about this Prophet (pbuh) but it is actually about the entire Prophecy and messengerhood that,

"Prophets and or Messengers do npt leave anything behind as inheritance or to be inherited, what they leave behind is for charity and for charitable purpose",

Take a look at such an important and serious thing and there is absolutely nothing in the Quran about it.

Hazrath Aisha (ra) was the most knowledgeable??? This is your claim and can you prove this to me??? As far as i am concerned i do not believe in favpuritism and taking sides, i am not bias because i believe in all the Prophet's (pbuh) wives.

It's strange that people had to be reminded. The majprity had to be reminded by the minority.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 24, 2014, 02:00:18 AM
Let's see here,


Quote
this is just one side of the story and there is nothing there that is sufficient enough to prove it.


There seems to be quite a bunch of major Sahabah who confirmed hearing this, which is sufficient in my opinion.


Quote
There is also a lot that explains the other side of the story which you absolutely and totally disregard.


I address the other side's arguments in my article, I didn't disregard them.



Quote
But lets just look at the points. The Prophet (pbuh) is in his last days and nothing has been discussed a out inheritance.


Well since people did narrate hearing this and since the Prophet (saw) gave away all his wealth before he died, then it seems to me that the issue was addressed.



Quote
Hazrath Fatimah (sa), Hazrath Ali (as), Hazrath Abbas (ra) and all the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) either didn't have a clue or had to be reminded of such an important saying of the Prophet (pbuh).


Fatimah (as) appears to have not known, `Ali and `Abbas knew and confirmed it, the wives were reminded and they agreed.


Nobody claimed anyone was lying nor did they object.


Fatimah (as) got angry because she feared for the future of her children since Banu Hashim were not given auhtority(Caliphate) nor did they receive any lands or wealth, so she thought her family would suffer.


`Ali and `Abbas knew the Hadith but the disagreed with Abu Bakr on who gets to keep the lands under his control, they thought they were entitled to control it and benefit from it and offer its produce as charity. They also disagreed with him on the method of dividing the Khums.


The wives who were not named in the Hadith wished to ask for inheritance, when reminded they accepted and never asked for it.



Quote

And this is not just about this Prophet (pbuh) but it is actually about the entire Prophecy and messengerhood


This is one Sunni opinion, another Sunni opinion states it's only about this Prophet (saw).



Quote

Take a look at such an important and serious thing and there is absolutely nothing in the Quran about it.


It's not important nor serious and no one cares except the people directly involved.


Quote
Hazrath Aisha (ra) was the most knowledgeable??? This is your claim and can you prove this to me???


This is well established, in fact several narrations state that even the men and the scholars among the companions consulted with her and took her opinions.


I turn the tables and ask, don't you find it strange that the man whom you claim stole these lands, he never benefited from them nor took possession of them nor did he give them to his family or children?



Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 24, 2014, 03:28:28 PM
Let's see here,


Quote
this is just one side of the story and there is nothing there that is sufficient enough to prove it.


There seems to be quite a bunch of major Sahabah who confirmed hearing this, which is sufficient in my opinion.


Quote
There is also a lot that explains the other side of the story which you absolutely and totally disregard.


I address the other side's arguments in my article, I didn't disregard them.



Quote
But lets just look at the points. The Prophet (pbuh) is in his last days and nothing has been discussed a out inheritance.


Well since people did narrate hearing this and since the Prophet (saw) gave away all his wealth before he died, then it seems to me that the issue was addressed.



Quote
Hazrath Fatimah (sa), Hazrath Ali (as), Hazrath Abbas (ra) and all the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) either didn't have a clue or had to be reminded of such an important saying of the Prophet (pbuh).


Fatimah (as) appears to have not known, `Ali and `Abbas knew and confirmed it, the wives were reminded and they agreed.


Nobody claimed anyone was lying nor did they object.


Fatimah (as) got angry because she feared for the future of her children since Banu Hashim were not given auhtority(Caliphate) nor did they receive any lands or wealth, so she thought her family would suffer.


`Ali and `Abbas knew the Hadith but the disagreed with Abu Bakr on who gets to keep the lands under his control, they thought they were entitled to control it and benefit from it and offer its produce as charity. They also disagreed with him on the method of dividing the Khums.


The wives who were not named in the Hadith wished to ask for inheritance, when reminded they accepted and never asked for it.



Quote

And this is not just about this Prophet (pbuh) but it is actually about the entire Prophecy and messengerhood


This is one Sunni opinion, another Sunni opinion states it's only about this Prophet (saw).



Quote

Take a look at such an important and serious thing and there is absolutely nothing in the Quran about it.


It's not important nor serious and no one cares except the people directly involved.


Quote
Hazrath Aisha (ra) was the most knowledgeable??? This is your claim and can you prove this to me???


This is well established, in fact several narrations state that even the men and the scholars among the companions consulted with her and took her opinions.


I turn the tables and ask, don't you find it strange that the man whom you claim stole these lands, he never benefited from them nor took possession of them nor did he give them to his family or children?

Can you provide me with the names of these major Sahaba (raa) who heard and confirmed this?? With references please! Again the out siders heard it but the insiders did have a clue about it. They had to be reminded about it. This is against what comes natural and against reality and facts. This is not normal. My family is not aware of what I said but my friends and neighbours seem to know more about me. This is not only strange but also weird.

If this matter is not important, nor is it serious and no one cares about it then, why is it discussed at such a major level till this very day??? Why do you keep banging on about it??? Why the long articles??? What's all the fuss about then. You want proof from the Quran about this and that but you can't provide anything concerning this??? Matters of inheritance and other civil matters have been mentioned and discussed in the Quran but not this??????????

The popular narration goes with "we"not "I". This is about Prophets and Messengers, all of them, the entire lot. It's not just about the last (pbuh). Other Sunni opinion states that it's just about the Prophet (pbuh)???? Really??? Give me references on this please! The wives were reminded and never asked for it??? Well what do you expect??? The entire property has been seized and taken over, the claim has been rejected and turned down point blank and these people have power and authority to do as they please. So what do you expect???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 24, 2014, 03:45:41 PM
Correction brother Hani regarding my first reply just before this "the insiders didn't have a clue about it, instead of did". Typing error!

Hazrath Fatimah (sa) didn't know about it but Ali (as) and Abbas (ra) did and confirmed it??? Strange! Ali (as) and Abbas (ra) knew about it but didn't tell and remind Hazrath Fatimah about it. Wow, some strange stuff we have going on here. Sounds like a bunch of absolute strangers to me, who don't communicate and discuss things with each other.

Let me answer on the tables you've turned. I didn't say anything nor did I use any word as stole or deceive. Now what did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) do the the great income received from Fadak??? With references please and how did he run government and the state's affairs??? With references please.

Now let me ask you this, Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) and his deputy and close advisor Hazrath Umar (ra), they decided to run government, to run the Muslim state and its affairs. For this you need income/funds, now rather than looking for and generating means to do this, they decide to take the easy and simple route, lets grab and get hold of fadak to do this. Lets say this is what it was all about.

My question, Is this impossible??? Was this impossible??? Were they saints??? Were they not humans??? Is or was it absolutely impossible to expect anything like this from them??? What is your answer and why???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 27, 2014, 02:26:32 AM

Quote
Can you provide me with the names of these major Sahaba (raa) who heard and confirmed this?? With references please!


If you refer to my earlier post, I did write names:


"This included `Abdul-Rahman, Sa`d, `Uthman, Talhah, Zubayr in addition to `Abbas and `Ali who confirmed the same matter, as well as the narrator `Umar. This was also reported in separate narrations by abu al-Darda', abu Hurayrah & Hudhayfah bin al-Yaman."


Refer to the long narrations of al-`Abbas and `Ali seeking `Umar's judgement on the Safaya of bani al-Nadeer in Bukhari/Muslim.


As for abu Hurayrah, abu al-Darda' and Hudhayfah, you'll find the narrations and sources in PART I of my research.


Quote
This is not only strange but also weird.


strange and weird are synonyms.


Quote
Strange! Ali (as) and Abbas (ra) knew about it but didn't tell and remind Hazrath Fatimah about it.



`Ali and `Abbas knew, they went to ask for whatever they could get whether it was Khums or control of Fay'. Fatimah wanted inheritance so either she wasn't told or she was told but she didn't accept it until she heard it from Abu Bakr's mouth and realized she wasn't actually getting anything.


Quote
My family is not aware of what I said but my friends and neighbours seem to know more about me.


The scholars among the Sahabah are not just "friends and neighbors" they're much more than that.


As for Fatimah (as), there was no benefit in telling her in the first place since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided. Abu Bakr knowing makes a lot more sense as the Prophet (saw) knew he'd be in authority and he would be in charge of what he (saw) left behind.


She may also not have asked her father out of shyness as asking about such material possessions may be considered rude as if she is waiting for his death to take his money and she was not like this.


Matter of the fact, she didn't know but Abu Bakr knew.


Quote
If this matter is not important, nor is it serious and no one cares about it then, why is it discussed at such a major level till this very day??? Why do you keep banging on about it???


We don't bang about it, the Imami Shia constantly bang about it because they use it to make Takfeer on Abu Bakr, if it weren't for Fadak, Fatimah (as) has almost no role in Imami Tashayyu`.


Quote
You want proof from the Quran about this and that but you can't provide anything concerning this??? Matters of inheritance and other civil matters have been mentioned and discussed in the Quran but not this?


What is mentioned in Allah's book is general inheritance as it involves all people and is a matter which concerns them. What prophets do with their material possessions concerns no one but prophets nor does it affect anyone's lives nor is it from Usoul.


Quote
The popular narration goes with "we"not "I". This is about Prophets and Messengers, all of them, the entire lot.


This is what my research discusses but you never read anything so I won't bother explaining and references are mention therein (refer to Part I)


Quote
Now what did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) do the the great income received from Fadak??? With references please and how did he run government and the state's affairs??? With references please.


Fadak was split between Rasul-Allah (saw) and the Jews, a part of it went to the Jews. Refer to this part of the "Q & A" to know what these lands were used for:


"WHAT WAS THE FAY’ OF THE JEWS IN MADINAH USED FOR? WHAT WAS THE FAY’ OF KHAYBAR USED FOR INCLUDING FADAK? WHAT WAS THE REST OF THE LAND OF KHAYBAR TAKEN BY FORCE USED FOR?" (http://twelvershia.net/2014/05/08/prophetic-inheritance-qa/)


As for Abu Bakr he followed the way of the Prophet (saw) generally concerning the lands, he specifically says in the narration that he won't change the way the Prophet (saw) used it and that Aal-Muhammad can eat from it.


Now here's a funny bit, when I said that you claim that Abu Bakr stole the lands, yet I asked how how come he never benefited from it nor gave it to his children, you replied:


Quote
I didn't say anything nor did I use any word as stole or deceive.


Then in the same post you write:


Quote
Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) and his deputy and close advisor Hazrath Umar (ra), they decided to run government, to run the Muslim state and its affairs. For this you need income/funds, now rather than looking for and generating means to do this, they decide to take the easy and simple route, lets grab and get hold of fadak to do this.


You just accused the guy of stealing right there, and also lying in religion.



Quote
My question, Is this impossible??? Was this impossible??? Were they saints??? Were they not humans??? Is or was it absolutely impossible to expect anything like this from them??? What is your answer and why???


It was actually near impossible because Rasul-Allah (saw) promised Abu Bakr heaven in many narrations, and `Ali praised him in many narrations. How can he be given glad tidings of heaven if he's from the dwellers of hell and why would `Ali praise a thief?


I turn it against you and say, is it not more likely that Fatimah (as) just didn't know this information? Was she a divine being? Was she not human? Do humans not forget things and aren't they ignorant of a lot of things?


Or maybe you believe Fatimah is a godly being such as Khomayni does?
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 27, 2014, 11:57:41 PM
Ok brother Hani, you said

“Ali and Abbas knew”,

Are you telling me that they knew what the Prophet (pbuh) had said about inheritance concerning him but they disregarded it???If one would say something about this concerning Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) then, this results in “takfeer” according to you, but not when it comes to other companions, why???

You said,

“Fatimah wanted inheritance so either she wasn't told or she was told but she didn't accept it until she heard it from Abu Bakr's mouth and realized she wasn't actually getting anything”,

There are three points here:

1, Hazrath Fatimah (sa) is not aware of the issue and matter, and those who are strangers compared to her relationship with the Prophet (pbuh), was told about it and were made aware of such an important issue and matter. This goes against sense and logic and what is natural and common behaviour and practice.

you said,

“or she was told but she didn’t accept it”,

2, It depends what you mean here. If you mean that she was told by the Messenger (pbuh) but still didn’t accept it, if this is what you mean then, this should also result in takfeer according to your belief and faith. If something as such was said about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) that would result in takfeer then, I’m sure the same can and should apply about Hazrath Fatimah (sa).

you said,

 “until she heard it from Abu Bakr's mouth and realized she wasn't actually getting anything”,

3, well I praise Hazrath Fatimah (sa) and her stance and reaction towards this issue and matter. She could have easily challenged  this and taken matters further but she decided on patience and tolerance. If Hazrath Aisha (ra) took matters further and very much further with the fourth Khalif then, Hazrath Fatimah (sa) could have easily done the same with the first Khalif.

You said,

“As for Fatimah (as), there was no benefit in telling her in the first place since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided.”

Now this is the talk of the time of jahiliya. Is this how women are viewed and looked at in Islam about their rights??? If this is true what you have said and let me point it out again,

you said'

“since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided"

then could you prove this from the Quran and Sunnah please???

You said,

“Abu Bakr knowing makes a lot more sense as the Prophet (saw) knew he'd be in authority and he would be in charge of what he (saw) left behind”,

This is a different matter brother which I completely disagree with. The Prophet (pbuh) didn’t leave anything behind a part  from two things: 1, Holy Quran and  2, Ahlul Baith. He only left two things behind for the Ummah and the Ummah consists of the companions as well. The companions are the Ummah and are an important part of it. He told the Ummah to hold on to these two things and not to separate them. But we all know what happened after his death.

You said,
“She may also not have asked her father out of shyness as asking about such material possessions may be considered rude as if she is waiting for his death to take his money and she was not like this",

If she may not have asked then the Prophet (pbuh) didn’t say anything either??? Well she didn’t have to ask since inheritance is inheritance and everyone inherits. Now if it’s different when it comes to Prophets and Messengers or it was different concerning this Prophet (pbuh) then, this difference should have been put forward
and made clear. I go with sense and logic and you’re not making any sense at all.

You said,

“We don't bang about it, the Imami Shia constantly bang about it because they use it to make Takfeer on Abu Bakr, if it weren't for Fadak, Fatimah (as) has almost no role in Imami Tashayyu",

The Imamia Shia just put their thought, opinion and point of view forward just like you do,

and you said,

“they use it to make TAKFEER ON ABU BAKAR”,

Excuse me??? How can you make TAkFEER ON ABU BAKAR??? Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) is not part of religion but a member of religion. “TAKFEER ON ABAU BAKAR “ this is exactly what extremism is all about.

You said,

“If it weren’t for Fadak, Fatimah (sa) has almost no role in Imami Tashayyu”,

Absolute rubbish and utter nonsense! Don’t go about assuming and then accusing. This is all you seem to do. Read and learn about others rather than chasing your own assumptions.

You said,

“What is mentioned in Allah's book is general inheritance as it involves all people and is a matter which concerns them. What prophets do with their material possessions concerns no one but prophets nor does it affect anyone's lives nor is it from Usoul”,

What Prophets do is demonstrate the shariath they bring about through practical means in the form of actions because shariath also applies to them. And what ever they own belongs to their children and wives. If there is a separate law on this then it should have been in the Quran otherwise what is normal and comes natural through shariath applies.

You said,

“As for Abu Bakr he followed the way of the Prophet (saw) generally concerning the lands, he specifically says in the narration that he won't change the way the Prophet (saw) used it and that Aal-Muhammad can eat from it",

Did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) follow the way of the Prophet (pbuh) or did he make a few changes according to his understanding, we shall discuss this Insha’allah. But Aal e Muhammad (pbuh) can’t inherit but can have a share of the income generated from it??? Can eat from it???

You said,

“You just accused the guy of stealing right  there, and also lying in religion",

If I accused the guy of stealing then stealing is wrong and is a sin but how does this make me a Kafir and how is this takfeer??? How have I lied in religion??? Since when did Hazrath Abu Baks (ra) become religion or part of religion??? This is extreme my friend and this is exactly what extremism is all about and where it comes from. Assuming that a companion is religion or part of religion is kufar itself.

You said,

“ Do humans not forget things and aren't they ignorant of a lot of things?",

Was Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) not human too??? And can’t ignorance also apply to him??? Why is it that if anyone comes along and says and believes in something that goes against Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) but this applies to TAKFEER but when it comes to Hazrath Fatimah (sa) then, you seem to come back down to earth and you suddenly realise that she was human after all???

You said,

“Or maybe you believe Fatimah is a godly being such as Khomayni does?",

This is what you seem to believe about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra). Anything that goes against him results in TAKFEER and an ATTACK ON RELIGION!
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 28, 2014, 04:36:00 PM
Reply,


Quote
“Ali and Abbas knew”,


Are you telling me that they knew what the Prophet (pbuh) had said about inheritance concerning him but they disregarded it???If one would say something about this concerning Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) then, this results in “takfeer” according to you, but not when it comes to other companions, why???


No, they went to see whatever it is that they could get a hold of, whether Khums or lands of Fay' as is apparent from the texts, especially since they explicitly said they heard these words from the Prophet's (saw) mouth.


Unless you're accusing `Ali and `Abbas of being liars who claimed to hear the Prophet (saw) say something he never said so they may take Fatimah's (as) right and split it between them OR that they are disobedient greedy sinners who disregarded the Prophet's (saw) words to get their hands on the money.


Quote
1, Hazrath Fatimah (sa) is not aware of the issue and matter, and those who are strangers compared to her relationship with the Prophet (pbuh), was told about it and were made aware of such an important issue and matter. This goes against sense and logic and what is natural and common behaviour and practice.


She never asked and she wasn't told, because dividing the inheritance is not her job rather it is up to the men and those in charge. Abu Bakr was the one in charge and he knew thus he explained things to her and also `Ali was her husband and he knew so he never returned Fadak to Fatimah's (as) children even after he became in charge nor did he claim it.


Women had no part in this...


I add, there's a lot of other things she never knew such as when Ahlul-Bayt wondered where they were going to bury the Prophet (saw), Abu Bakr was the one who informed them of the Hadith stating that prophets are buried wherever they die, they believed him and did just that.


Quote
you said,


“or she was told but she didn’t accept it”,


2, It depends what you mean here. If you mean that she was told by the Messenger (pbuh) but still didn’t accept it, if this is what you mean then, this should also result in takfeer according to your belief and faith. If something as such was said about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) that would result in takfeer then, I’m sure the same can and should apply about Hazrath Fatimah (sa).


What's up with you guys and Takfeer? Is it a hobby?


No, I meant: Maybe she was told by her husband or a relative, but she was surprised and thought they misunderstood, then when she went to Abu Bakr he gave her the same answer.


Quote
You said,


“As for Fatimah (as), there was no benefit in telling her in the first place since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided.”


Now this is the talk of the time of jahiliya. Is this how women are viewed and looked at in Islam about their rights??? If this is true what you have said and let me point it out again,


Women are also not required to give Bay`ah, they can't marry unless with permission of their Wali, and two women witnesses are equal to one man. If you don't like it go join atheistic feminist groups.


Quote
you said'


“since women have no say in matters of inheritance nor in how it is divided"


then could you prove this from the Quran and Sunnah please???


In their society, the heads of the family who were men are in charge of all of this, not the women. Read about their society before you ask random question.



Quote

You said,


“Abu Bakr knowing makes a lot more sense as the Prophet (saw) knew he'd be in authority and he would be in charge of what he (saw) left behind”,


This is a different matter brother which I completely disagree with. The Prophet (pbuh) didn’t leave anything behind a part  from two things: 1, Holy Quran and  2, Ahlul Baith. He only left two things behind for the Ummah and the Ummah consists of the companions as well. The companions are the Ummah and are an important part of it. He told the Ummah to hold on to these two things and not to separate them. But we all know what happened after his death.


Great, if he only left behind these two things (Qur'an & Ahlul-Bayt) then there was no land called "Fadak" which he left behind.


Problem solved.


(Note: Your highlighted statement is incorrect and this is not mentioned anywhere in any Hadith.)


Quote
You said,
“She may also not have asked her father out of shyness as asking about such material possessions may be considered rude as if she is waiting for his death to take his money and she was not like this",


If she may not have asked then the Prophet (pbuh) didn’t say anything either??? Well she didn’t have to ask since inheritance is inheritance and everyone inherits. Now if it’s different when it comes to Prophets and Messengers or it was different concerning this Prophet (pbuh) then, this difference should have been put forward
and made clear. I go with sense and logic and you’re not making any sense at all.


There is no need to ask as laws of inheritance are generally written the Book of Allah. He (saw) also didn't find a need to tell her anything since he told other men who are in charge of her and they are the ones who divide the shares.


Quote
and you said,


“they use it to make TAKFEER ON ABU BAKAR”,


Excuse me??? How can you make TAkFEER ON ABU BAKAR??? Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) is not part of religion but a member of religion. “TAKFEER ON ABAU BAKAR “ this is exactly what extremism is all about.


Well then you're the only Shia on planet earth who doesn't consider Abu Bakr a Kafir. Try convincing your scholars and laypeople then come preach to us about tolerance and extremism.


Quote
You said,


“If it weren’t for Fadak, Fatimah (sa) has almost no role in Imami Tashayyu”,


Absolute rubbish and utter nonsense! Don’t go about assuming and then accusing. This is all you seem to do. Read and learn about others rather than chasing your own assumptions.


I'm sure as a Shia you'll agree that most of the time Shia mention Fatimah (as) is to talk about how she was oppressed and how they took Fadak away from her. Dude it's all over the Shia websites, it's almost impossible to find a biography of her not containing a huge part about Fadak.


Look at this Shia book about the fourteen infallible ones, it's called "The Fourteen Luminaries of Islam" by: Ahmad Ahmadi Birjandi and is found here (http://www.al-islam.org/fourteen-luminaries-islam-ahmad-ahmadi-birjandi/third-infallible-hadhrat-fatimah-al-zahra#delight-sorrow).


Look at the section on Fatimah (as) in this book, it discusses five topics: Her parents, her life, her marriage, her sorrow and sadness and finally Fadak.


Section on her parents barely contains anything about her. Section on her life is only 4 very tiny paragraphs. Section on marriage is slightly bigger. Then the rest of the article which is 65%, is all about her sadness and grief and Fadak. In fact the biggest section is on Fadak and it alone is near 50% of the entire biography.


Quote

“What is mentioned in Allah's book is general inheritance as it involves all people and is a matter which concerns them. What prophets do with their material possessions concerns no one but prophets nor does it affect anyone's lives nor is it from Usoul”,


What Prophets do is demonstrate the shariath they bring about through practical means in the form of actions because shariath also applies to them. And what ever they own belongs to their children and wives. If there is a separate law on this then it should have been in the Quran otherwise what is normal and comes natural through shariath applies.





Not necessarily, because all Muslims agree that Banu Hashim cannot receive Sadaqah, yet this is not in the Qur'an. This is even more important than inheritance because it affects us as well at least since we may give them Sadaqah by mistake.


The Prophet (saw) explained laws of inheritance and they are clear in the Qur'an, his did his job perfectly. What does it affect me if Prophets do not leave inheritance? It affects no one nor does it change anything in religion.


Unless you believe everything is in the Qur'an and there is absolutely nothing left in the Sunnah that isn't contained in the Qur'an.


Quote
You said,


“As for Abu Bakr he followed the way of the Prophet (saw) generally concerning the lands, he specifically says in the narration that he won't change the way the Prophet (saw) used it and that Aal-Muhammad can eat from it",


Did Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) follow the way of the Prophet (pbuh) or did he make a few changes according to his understanding, we shall discuss this Insha’allah. But Aal e Muhammad (pbuh) can’t inherit but can have a share of the income generated from it??? Can eat from it???


As long as he followed his way for the most part, no harm.


Quote
You said,


“You just accused the guy of stealing right  there, and also lying in religion",


If I accused the guy of stealing then stealing is wrong and is a sin but how does this make me a Kafir and how is this takfeer??? How have I lied in religion??? Since when did Hazrath Abu Baks (ra) become religion or part of religion??? This is extreme my friend and this is exactly what extremism is all about and where it comes from. Assuming that a companion is religion or part of religion is kufar itself.


I didn't say you're a Kafir, I said you accused him of Kufr and lying in religion which leads a person to dwell in hellfire.


Quote
You said,


“ Do humans not forget things and aren't they ignorant of a lot of things?",


Was Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) not human too??? And can’t ignorance also apply to him??? Why is it that if anyone comes along and says and believes in something that goes against Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) but this applies to TAKFEER but when it comes to Hazrath Fatimah (sa) then, you seem to come back down to earth and you suddenly realise that she was human after all???


Abu Bakr can make mistakes but he narrated a clear Hadith and everyone agreed with him. Fatimah (as) never narrated anything she was ignorant of the matter. It's unlikely that Abu Bakr had a dream and in his dream he heard this Hadith and woke up in the morning thinking the Prophet (saw) said this, then several other companions had the same dream and they were all mistaken but Fatimah (as) was correct.


It is much clearer and more logical if they knew what she did not know, end of story.


Quote
You said,


“Or maybe you believe Fatimah is a godly being such as Khomayni does?",


This is what you seem to believe about Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra). Anything that goes against him results in TAKFEER and an ATTACK ON RELIGION!


Ah so you say we also believe Abu Bakr is godly?


I say: You're the one who believes Fatimah (as) is a goddess in human form.


Only one of us isn't saying the truth and there is a very simple way of finding out, so I challenge you in front of everyone to bring me one quotation from your own books regarding Fatimah (as) where she has committed a mistake or a sin.


In return I can give you a quotation from our books where I show you that Abu Bakr committed a mistake or sin.


The one who cannot bring forth this evidence is the untruthful one.

Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 28, 2014, 07:27:40 PM
Ok brother Hani, you have challenged me in front of everyone. I am going to accept your challenge and put the rest on hold. But before I go ahead with it, answer me this,

What is the meaning of "Rijs" according to you???

Looking forward to your answer. Many thanks!
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 28, 2014, 08:54:59 PM
Ok brother Hani, you have challenged me in front of everyone. I am going to accept your challenge and put the rest on hold. But before I go ahead with it, answer me this,

What is the meaning of "Rijs" according to you???

Looking forward to your answer. Many thanks!


I knew it, you couldn't provide a single evidence.


You couldn't accept that Fatimah (as) simply didn't know something, so we accused you of treating her like an all-knowing goddess who never makes a mistake.


You in turn turned the tables and said that it is we (Ahlul-Sunnah) who treat Abu Bakr like a god incapable of committing any sins or mistakes.


We challenged you by saying that we can provide evidence from our own sources that prove that Abu Bakr does commit mistakes/sins like any regular human thus he is not a "god" to us.


We also challenged you to prove your own innocence by showing us evidences from your own sources proving that you guys believe Fatimah (as) committed a mistake/sin.


You couldn't!


Do you know when this whole thing started? When you accused the Sahabah (ra) of usurping the land and stealing it from Fatimah (as), then you told me:


Quote
Was this impossible??? Were they not humans??? Is or was it absolutely impossible to expect anything like this from them??? What is your answer and why???


Then when we turned the tables on you and told you: "What if Fatimah (as) was ignorant of this matter? Is this impossible? Is she not human? Aren't humans ignorant of certain matters? Don't they forget? Or is she a goddess?"


You replied by simply repeating yourself and telling me:


Quote
Was Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) not human too??? And can’t ignorance also apply to him??? ... but when it comes to Hazrath Fatimah (sa) then, you seem to come back down to earth and you suddenly realise that she was human after all???


I'm telling you, prove that you actually believe she was a human who was capable of making mistakes and sinning then use the above as your argument.


If your next post does not contain any evidence that she makes mistakes/sins, then it is you who is an extremist and it is you who believes that she is a godly creature. As for us we can provide evidence that Abu Bakr was indeed a regular human who makes mistakes and thus we're not the stubborn extremists.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 28, 2014, 09:39:33 PM
I took on your challenge and I asked you a very simple question, which has very much to do with this challenge of yours. It seems to me that you're afraid of your own challenge. Would you mind answering the question so we can proceed with your challenge???

Or are you afraid that you've got a bit carried away by issuing a challenge. Having second thoughts, are we???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 28, 2014, 09:52:57 PM
Why don't you put forward what mistakes and or errors Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) made. Any sins he committed and faults that he had??? You issued the challenge, now bring forward what you have promised, then ask for a response. And if you don't get one then by all means jump up and down.

Everything that seems to go against Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) you brush aside. If someone accuses him of hypocrisy, deceiving, etc you see this as some kind of attack on religion. Since when did he or any other companion become part of religion??? Since when did Khalifatul Muslimeen become part of religion???

Why is it mandatory and or compulsory to believe in and accept Khalifatul Muslimeen??? Can't they put a foot wrong??? people do a lot to get in to power and once they have authority they seem untouchable and get up to all sorts. have an open mind about things.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 28, 2014, 10:01:24 PM
Brother Hani, I told you that you don't have a clue about Shiaism what so ever, otherwise you wouldn't have issued me such a challenge in the first place. Now are you going to put what you promised forward??? Or do we have a habit of saying without thinking, then realising and making a run for it and trying to put the blame on the opposition to make ourselves look good???

You've issued a challenge, now lets see if you're man enough to stick to it.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 28, 2014, 10:34:14 PM
I wrote in my post:


Quote
If your next post does not contain any evidence that she makes mistakes/sins, then it is you who is an extremist and it is you who believes that she is a godly creature. As for us we can provide evidence that Abu Bakr was indeed a regular human who makes mistakes and thus we're not the stubborn extremists.


Your following post did not contain the evidence:


Quote
I took on your challenge and I asked you a very simple question, which has very much to do with this challenge of yours. It seems to me that you're afraid of your own challenge. Would you mind answering the question so we can proceed with your challenge???


Or are you afraid that you've got a bit carried away by issuing a challenge. Having second thoughts, are we???


Thus you fail.


Is it that hard to post it? Or do you need lengthy introductions and large paragraphs in order to provide one narration from your sources which declares that a person made a mistake/sin at one point?


If you believe in her divinity and godliness, just say so and don't waste my time as I can't debate which of the two individuals was correct and who was at fault if your highness believes that one of the two is a deity incapable of errors or forgetfulness.
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 28, 2014, 10:41:19 PM
Are you so afraid of the challenge you've issued??? Did you issue a challenge and then start to think about it??? Or did you think about it then issued it??? Do you believe that "Hazrath Abu Bakar (ra) made mistakes and errors, had sinned in his life and also had faults"??? Do you believe in this??? If not than you do believe he was a saint???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Ameen on December 28, 2014, 10:44:58 PM
What is the Ahle Sunnah Wal Jama'ah belief on this??? You issued a challenge, you didn't proceed on it and you believe that I failed. In what??? Are you man enough to bring forward what you claim??? Or are we having regrets now???
Title: Re: The story of Fadak!
Post by: Hani on December 28, 2014, 10:51:40 PM
Done playing? people can read and know who isn't "man enough" to bring anything forward.


This thread is locked until you send me a private message in which you write the evidence I asked regarding Fatimah's (as) sin/mistake from Shia sources, and if you do I promise to provide a text about Abu Bakr.


Then I'l reopen this thread and post what you sent me. Take your time.