TwelverShia.net Forum

The term Rafidah

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Ijtaba

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2015, 10:10:41 AM »
Ijtaba, how do you conclude as a shia that according to shiism, the imams never cursed the sahaba?

Because I have yet to see authentic narration which would also be considered authentic in the eyes of Sunnis in which any one of the Imams curse or encourages others to curse Sahabas.

Ijtaba

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2015, 10:22:35 AM »

If Jews follow Rabbis instead of Prophets (a.s) of Bani Israel then Jews are wrong and not Prophets (a.s). Similarly if Christians worship Trinity this doesn't mean Jesus told them to worship Trinity.

You have to differentiate what the Imams (a.s) said or did from what their so-called followers are saying or doing.

Majlisi, Mufid, Khomayni etc... think they are correct, because they follow the narrations of the Imams found in the Shia books, and in those books the Imams are constantly cursing and abusing the Sahabah as well as the rest of the nation.

The issue is with the Twelver Shia books of Hadith, these books are unreliable and contain many forgeries and fabrications. They do not represent the authentic teachings of Ahlul-Bayt.

This depends individually. If Majalisi, Mufid or Ayatollah Khomeini were convinced of unreliable and fabricated narrations this doesn't mean that I should also follow them.

As I said before if there exists a narration which fulfills all conditions of authenticity I would wholeheartedly accept that narration.

If I would bring a narration to you in which Imam Ali (a.s) curses Hadhrat  Uthman (r.a) from a Shiite book what would be your first reaction? Would you accept that narration blindly or would you investigate about the authenticity of that narration?

Ijtaba

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2015, 10:48:48 AM »

If Majlisi, Kulayni, Mufid, Ayatollah udma Sistani or Khomeini says otherwise then they are not to be followed because they are going against the orders of our Imams (a.s)
So if Majilsi, Majlisi, Kulayni, Mufid, Tusi, Sharif Razi and Murtaza, Saduq tell you there are only 12 Imams they are correct, but when they provide ahadith which supplicates against Abi Bakr and Umar they are wrong? How does that work?
Quote
You have to differentiate what the Imams (a.s) said or did from what their so-called followers are saying or doing.
How do you do that? For example I don't think the imams said there are only 12 Imams.

I am not cherry-picking narrations. I do not believe narrations to be true based on my whims and desires. About 12 Imams and naming of 12 Imams (a.s) I would in near future investigate on this topic also. If I don't find a single authentic ahadith or narration stating there will be only 12 Imams or naming of all 12 Imams then naturally I would reject the belief in 12 Imams (a.s).

Furkan

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2015, 10:58:44 AM »
Quote
I am not cherry-picking narrations. I do not believe narrations to be true based on my whims and desires. About 12 Imams and naming of 12 Imams (a.s) I would in near future investigate on this topic also. If I don't find a single authentic ahadith or narration stating there will be only 12 Imams or naming of all 12 Imams then naturally I would reject the belief in 12 Imams (a.s).

You should begin with researching that instead of cursing, since that is the core.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ijtaba

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2015, 11:19:52 AM »
Quote
I am not cherry-picking narrations. I do not believe narrations to be true based on my whims and desires. About 12 Imams and naming of 12 Imams (a.s) I would in near future investigate on this topic also. If I don't find a single authentic ahadith or narration stating there will be only 12 Imams or naming of all 12 Imams then naturally I would reject the belief in 12 Imams (a.s).

You should begin with researching that instead of cursing, since that is the core.

I preferred the topic of cursing over the topic of 12 Imams because I felt that the main reason which is causing hatred and disunity among Muslim Ummah is cursing of Sahabas (r.a)

Do you believe that believing in 12 Imams is main reason Shias and Sunnis don't get along or Cursing of Sahabas (r.a)?

Furkan

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2015, 11:49:56 AM »
Unity is based on having the same principles, thus you should open a topic about imamat, atleast if you are sincere.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ijtaba

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2015, 01:36:57 PM »
Unity is based on having the same principles, thus you should open a topic about imamat, atleast if you are sincere.

Ok as per your wish I will be starting new topic on Imamate.

Hadrami

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2015, 03:32:19 PM »
I preferred the topic of cursing over the topic of 12 Imams because I felt that the main reason which is causing hatred and disunity among Muslim Ummah is cursing of Sahabas (r.a)

Do you believe that believing in 12 Imams is main reason Shias and Sunnis don't get along or Cursing of Sahabas (r.a)?

The cursing caused the conflict, but the 12ers curse because of their imamah belief. So 12er imamah belief is the main culprit.

Hani

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2015, 09:09:16 PM »

This depends individually. If Majalisi, Mufid or Ayatollah Khomeini were convinced of unreliable and fabricated narrations this doesn't mean that I should also follow them.

As I said before if there exists a narration which fulfills all conditions of authenticity I would wholeheartedly accept that narration.

If I would bring a narration to you in which Imam Ali (a.s) curses Hadhrat  Uthman (r.a) from a Shiite book what would be your first reaction? Would you accept that narration blindly or would you investigate about the authenticity of that narration?

There's not one authentic narration in all the Shia books, nothing you will find there is authentic.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2015, 10:13:56 PM »
Quote
I am not cherry-picking narrations. I do not believe narrations to be true based on my whims and desires. About 12 Imams and naming of 12 Imams (a.s) I would in near future investigate on this topic also. If I don't find a single authentic ahadith or narration stating there will be only 12 Imams or naming of all 12 Imams then naturally I would reject the belief in 12 Imams (a.s).

You should begin with researching that instead of cursing, since that is the core.

I preferred the topic of cursing over the topic of 12 Imams because I felt that the main reason which is causing hatred and disunity among Muslim Ummah is cursing of Sahabas (r.a)

Do you believe that believing in 12 Imams is main reason Shias and Sunnis don't get along or Cursing of Sahabas (r.a)?

The concept of divinely appointed Imamate is the one which opened doors to takfir. As for cursing many of the 12ers do taqiyyah, and indirectly curse the sahaba. Does this help? No!

Khalifa

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #50 on: November 21, 2015, 11:12:29 PM »

As you yourself said that above mentioned narration is considered authentic based on emotion and not on chain. So I won't consider it authentic narration. Authentic narration should have good chain which would prove its authenticity.

but Shia Says that Cursing is established from Quran so even if there is any weakness in chain its text is still acceptable because curing the enemies of Ahl Bait (like Abu Bakar ,Umar & Ayesha)  is the sign of true love with Imams

Here is the Video in which Shia Scholar Ayatullah Mazhar Ali sherazi explaining that now a days people rejecting Tabbara but it is the Base of Deen and he is quoting several narrations of Imam Jafar about Cursing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36Zl6c0oPRc
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 11:42:14 PM by Khalifa »

Khalifa

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2015, 11:59:40 PM »


Are you saying that Imam (a.s) use to curse Sahabas (r.a) privately?


there is a narration in shia book Ahqaqul Haq that in public Imam Jafar said :  Abu Bakar And Umar were righteous leaders and died on truth and justice . When the people left he said privately to his shia that Abu bakar and Umar are two Imams calling for hellfire .

Ijtaba

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2015, 06:23:10 PM »


Are you saying that Imam (a.s) use to curse Sahabas (r.a) privately?


there is a narration in shia book Ahqaqul Haq that in public Imam Jafar said :  Abu Bakar And Umar were righteous leaders and died on truth and justice . When the people left he said privately to his shia that Abu bakar and Umar are two Imams calling for hellfire .

Brother what you stated above I believe it to be true and I won't ask for the authenticity for the presented narration but I will assume that its 100% authentic sahih narration according to 12er Shia standards. But I am not interested in this ahadith if it would be considered as daeef according Sunni standard. I am particularly interested in those narrations in which any one of the 12 Imams curse Sahabas (r.a) with that narration being authentic according to both Shia and Sunni standards of verification of hadiths.

If for e.g a 12er Shia who curses Hadhrat Abu Bakr (r.a) and Hadhrat Umar (r.a) presents you above stated narration saying Look Imam Jafer as Sadiq (a.s) hated Shaikhan (r.a) and I am just following my Imam (a.s) in cursing Shaikhan (r.a) and am not doing it on my own accord. Would you believe his statement to be true?And would you by reading this hadith believe that Imam Jafer as-Sadiq (a.s) said Shaikhan (r.a) are Imams of Hellfire?

Khalifa

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2015, 08:15:04 PM »
Brother what you stated above I believe it to be true and I won't ask for the authenticity for the presented narration but I will assume that its 100% authentic sahih narration according to 12er Shia standards. But I am not interested in this ahadith if it would be considered as daeef according Sunni standard. I am particularly interested in those narrations in which any one of the 12 Imams curse Sahabas (r.a) with that narration being authentic according to both Shia and Sunni standards of verification of hadiths.
well it is only yours new invented standard not 12ers Shia standard
may i ask which marja do you follow or are you akhbari shia?

Khalifa

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2015, 08:26:38 PM »
If for e.g a 12er Shia who curses Hadhrat Abu Bakr (r.a) and Hadhrat Umar (r.a) presents you above stated narration saying Look Imam Jafer as Sadiq (a.s) hated Shaikhan (r.a) and I am just following my Imam (a.s) in cursing Shaikhan (r.a) and am not doing it on my own accord. Would you believe his statement to be true?And would you by reading this hadith believe that Imam Jafer as-Sadiq (a.s) said Shaikhan (r.a) are Imams of Hellfire?

dear this will strengthen my belief that Shia religion was made by Jewish Ibn saba or enemies of Islam :)

Furkan

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2015, 09:05:59 PM »
You can pretty much assume that over 50 percent of stuff in shia books is DAIF according to our standards.
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Ijtaba

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2015, 10:11:56 PM »
Brother what you stated above I believe it to be true and I won't ask for the authenticity for the presented narration but I will assume that its 100% authentic sahih narration according to 12er Shia standards. But I am not interested in this ahadith if it would be considered as daeef according Sunni standard. I am particularly interested in those narrations in which any one of the 12 Imams curse Sahabas (r.a) with that narration being authentic according to both Shia and Sunni standards of verification of hadiths.
well it is only yours new invented standard not 12ers Shia standard
may i ask which marja do you follow or are you akhbari shia?

Actually I am following Qur'an. In Qur'an ALLAH (SWT) says to always verify reports when you hear them. I am not Akhbari Shia. I was born in Usooli Shia but don't do Taqleed of any Ayatollah. I just follow Quran and Hadiths. Before asking me questions about my method of Praying, Wudu, etc. It is for this reason I came to this forum so that I may know whether Shia method of Prayer, Wudu, etc are correct or incorrect. I will be asking on these issues.

As for saying that I am not following 12er standard. True I am not following 12er standard. I am following a standard in which I would have most chances of being on right path by following those hadiths which have been agreed by both Shias and Sunnis even if those hadiths be few.

Ijtaba

Re: The term Rafidah
« Reply #57 on: November 22, 2015, 10:15:46 PM »
If for e.g a 12er Shia who curses Hadhrat Abu Bakr (r.a) and Hadhrat Umar (r.a) presents you above stated narration saying Look Imam Jafer as Sadiq (a.s) hated Shaikhan (r.a) and I am just following my Imam (a.s) in cursing Shaikhan (r.a) and am not doing it on my own accord. Would you believe his statement to be true?And would you by reading this hadith believe that Imam Jafer as-Sadiq (a.s) said Shaikhan (r.a) are Imams of Hellfire?

dear this will strengthen my belief that Shia religion was made by Jewish Ibn saba or enemies of Islam :)

OK. And what about Imam Jafer Sadiq (a.s)? Would you believe he said so privately? If you say No then you have confirmed my assumption that Imam Jafer Sadiq (a.s) never cursed privately.

 

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