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The Three Were Once Good?

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Rationalist

The Three Were Once Good?
« on: January 21, 2015, 03:02:51 AM »
There are two opinions on the status of Abi Bakr, Umar and Uthmaan from the 12er Shia point of view.

1) They were monafiqeen since day one
2) They became monafiqeen since the Prophet (pbuh) passed away.

The first opinion without a doubt contradicts the Quran. However, for the second opinion there is no proof in the 12er Shia  ahadith books.

Bolani Muslim

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2015, 04:31:16 AM »
According to some of my cousins, they are kafir (naozobillah). One shia (don't remember name) wrote in one of his books that Imam Abu Bakr (a.s) went to a sorcerer before converting and she told him of Islam's bright future and how he'll become khalifa.

Furkan

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2015, 04:44:25 AM »
2 shiites I know said that some sahaba never became muslim and hid their belief. Then I said: Then they must be impure, so rasullulah (saw) his wudu would become invalid each time those sahabas entered the mosque and shaked hands with each other.

No reply xD
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Optimus Prime

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2015, 04:56:49 PM »
2 shiites I know said that some sahaba never became muslim and hid their belief. Then I said: Then they must be impure, so rasullulah (saw) his wudu would become invalid each time those sahabas entered the mosque and shaked hands with each other.

No reply xD

How would the Prophet (SAW) wudhu break just because he shook hands with non-Muslims and entered his mosque?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 05:00:41 PM by Imam Ali »

Furkan

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2015, 09:09:07 PM »
Shiites have this najis rule including touching humans of different sects or religion, right?
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Bolani Muslim

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2015, 09:39:17 PM »
^Kinda, what I was taught was if someone wasn't Ahlul Kitab, and they were wet, then you become najis  by touching them. When I'd go to my Sikh friend's house I wouldn't be able to eat the fruit they washed for me (as a guest) since they touched it.

Abu Zayd

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2015, 09:47:53 PM »
According to some of my cousins, they are kafir (naozobillah). One shia (don't remember name) wrote in one of his books that Imam Abu Bakr (a.s) went to a sorcerer before converting and she told him of Islam's bright future and how he'll become khalifa.

This is in Anita Rai's biography of the Prophet (pbuh).  One of the worst books I've read. She notes that Abi Bakr and Umar went to a sorcerer/fortune teller who told them that a man would spread  a religion in Arabia and that they would be his successors. From that point on they kept an eye out for prophets and realised Muhammad (pbuh) was the one and joined him early on.

It paints a picture that they were power hungry and became Muslim only for the Caliphate.  Only an idiot however would say that Abu Bakr and Umar lived in luxury or were wealthy rulers.

Hani

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2015, 09:49:54 PM »
According to some of my cousins, they are kafir (naozobillah). One shia (don't remember name) wrote in one of his books that Imam Abu Bakr (a.s) went to a sorcerer before converting and she told him of Islam's bright future and how he'll become khalifa.

This is in Anita Rai's biography of the Prophet (pbuh).  One of the worst books I've read. She notes that Abi Bakr and Umar went to a sorcerer/fortune teller who told them that a man would spread  a religion in Arabia and that they would be his successors. From that point on they kept an eye out for prophets and realised Muhammad (pbuh) was the one and joined him early on.

It paints a picture that they were power hungry and became Muslim only for the Caliphate.  Only an idiot however would say that Abu Bakr and Umar lived in luxury or were wealthy rulers.

Except that `Umar never joined early.

: p
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Abu Zayd

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2015, 09:54:48 PM »
They spaced it out so not to arouse suspicion...

Furkan

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2015, 10:39:57 PM »
^Kinda, what I was taught was if someone wasn't Ahlul Kitab, and they were wet, then you become najis  by touching them. When I'd go to my Sikh friend's house I wouldn't be able to eat the fruit they washed for me (as a guest) since they touched it.

Yes, I really wonder why the early shiites came up with this "fiqh" ruling  (actually it's just extremism).
Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Farid

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2015, 11:15:27 PM »
Lol Vigi. I'm glad you're here. =)

Btw, Madelung got away with theories like that.

Husayn

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2015, 11:45:23 PM »
So the rule about touching a wet kafir making you najis doesn't apply for Ahlul Sunnah?
إن يتبعون إلا الظن وما تهوى الأنفس

Furkan

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2015, 11:50:38 PM »
Well they see us as najis since they consider us as nasibis, but they labelled us as muslims (only in this life) to keep their wudu valid since they mixed with sunnis and and used taqiyah.

There is no najis rule like this in ahlu sunnah. But I think if I have wudhu and touch a dead body, my wudhu becomes invalid. Haven't ressearched this actually and it might differ in each 4 madhabs.

Before Qazî Mihemed, President of the first kurdish Republic Mahabad was hanged the iranian judge asked:

“last words?”

Qazî: “I thank Allah: even in death he put my shoes above your heads”

Abu Zayd

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2015, 11:56:27 PM »
Lol Vigi. I'm glad you're here. =)

It's been a while but hope to be online a bit more.

Quote
Btw, Madelung got away with theories like that.

I remember your review of his 'Succession to Muhammad' book and to be fair I didn't think it was bad.  At least he tried to produce some form of justification for his views, whereas others simply pluck narrations from here, there and everywhere just to form an interesting narrative (e.g Lesley Halzeton's book which was just terrible) .

Rationalist

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2015, 02:02:31 AM »
In order words Yassir Al Habib's takfiri views have more weight and proof from the 12er Shia books, as compared to those who call for unity and do taqiyyah.

Ameen

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2015, 02:08:34 AM »
There are two opinions on the status of Abi Bakr, Umar and Uthmaan from the 12er Shia point of view.

1) They were monafiqeen since day one
2) They became monafiqeen since the Prophet (pbuh) passed away.

The first opinion without a doubt contradicts the Quran. However, for the second opinion there is no proof in the 12er Shia  ahadith books.

So how do you know about these opinions??? And what's the concern about these companions??? Companions are fallible (Gahir e Masoom), everyone is a subject to controversy and one has a right to their opinion just like you gentlemen.





Hani

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2015, 02:12:23 AM »
There are two opinions on the status of Abi Bakr, Umar and Uthmaan from the 12er Shia point of view.

1) They were monafiqeen since day one
2) They became monafiqeen since the Prophet (pbuh) passed away.

The first opinion without a doubt contradicts the Quran. However, for the second opinion there is no proof in the 12er Shia  ahadith books.

So how do you know about these opinions??? And what's the concern about these companions??? Companions are fallible (Gahir e Masoom), everyone is a subject to controversy and one has a right to their opinion just like you gentlemen.


Maybe, just maybe, the people on this forum are very interested and passionate about researching Tashayyu`, and so they come into contact with a lot of Shia (like yourself) and they discuss with them and learn their various points of views.

...Or maybe they read it in your books who knows.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

Rationalist

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2015, 02:14:16 AM »


This is in Anita Rai's biography of the Prophet (pbuh).  One of the worst books I've read. She notes that Abi Bakr and Umar went to a sorcerer/fortune teller who told them that a man would spread  a religion in Arabia and that they would be his successors. From that point on they kept an eye out for prophets and realised Muhammad (pbuh) was the one and joined him early on.

It paints a picture that they were power hungry and became Muslim only for the Caliphate.  Only an idiot however would say that Abu Bakr and Umar lived in luxury or were wealthy rulers.

The truth is, according to one narration he went to Khatijah's uncle Waraka'-b-Naufal and then decided to accept Islam.


Abu Bakr narrates, " and I, had not
heard before that of a prophet expected who was to be sent." He
adds. " Then I went out to Waraka'-b-Naufal* and he was one who con.
stantly watched the heavens and muttered frequently to himself and I
stopped him and related to him the circumstance. He said " Tea—O
!sou of my brother, I am skilled in the scriptures and in knowledge ; know,
that this prophet, he whom men await, shall be by descent of the most
noble of the Arabs. I am likewise skilled in genealogy, and thy tribe is
by descent, the most noble among the Arabs." I said. " O uncle, and
what will the prophet say ?" He replied, " he shall speak that which
hath been said to him, and know, that he shall not oppress nor be oppress- •
ed nor desire you to oppress each other." Therefore when the Apostle of
God was sent, I believed in him and testified to him."




As for wealth he has 40,000 dirhams before Islam, and it decline after that.


Ibn A'sakir from Ayesha with- different authorities,
and from U'rwah-b-uz-Zubayr,,that on the day when Abu Bakr was
converted, he had forty thousand dinars—and according to another reading,
forty thousand dirhams, and he spent them upon the Apostle of God.


Abu Sa'id al Aa'rdbi records on the authority of Ibn O'mar, that on
the day when Abu Bakr was converted, he had in his house forty thousand
dirhams, and when he set out for Medina at the time of the Tlight, he had
no more than five thousand, all of which he spent upon the manumission
of slaves, and in aid of Islam. And Ibn A'sikiv on that of Ayesha, that
Abu Bakr gave freedom to seven slaves all of whom had suffered persecution
for the sake of God.



As for fortune, yes Abi Bakr  bet his whole wealth against the pagans of Mecca by supporting the Romans against the Persians. When he told the Prophet (pbuh),  the Prophet (pbuh) told him to double his bet.

Rationalist

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2015, 02:16:04 AM »


So how do you know about these opinions??? And what's the concern about these companions???
I read  a couple ahadith from al Kafi.

Quote
Companions are fallible (Gahir e Masoom), everyone is a subject to controversy and one has a right to their opinion just like you gentlemen.
Open another topic about it. I would love to discuss it.





Ameen

Re: The Three Were Once Good?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2015, 02:20:32 AM »
There are two opinions on the status of Abi Bakr, Umar and Uthmaan from the 12er Shia point of view.

1) They were monafiqeen since day one
2) They became monafiqeen since the Prophet (pbuh) passed away.

The first opinion without a doubt contradicts the Quran. However, for the second opinion there is no proof in the 12er Shia  ahadith books.

So how do you know about these opinions??? And what's the concern about these companions??? Companions are fallible (Gahir e Masoom), everyone is a subject to controversy and one has a right to their opinion just like you gentlemen.


Maybe, just maybe, the people on this forum are very interested and passionate about researching Tashayyu`, and so they come into contact with a lot of Shia (like yourself) and they discuss with them and learn their various points of views.

...Or maybe they read it in your books who knows.

Brother you said it, "Who knows". Well as long as you don't know I'm afraid it's just gossip and rumours, until you do know. Get to know then you have a strong base. But at the moment it's all just air and wind.





 

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