What happened in Saqifa?

[iceman]

You must be more knowledgeable than Asy-Syafii, Ahmad ibn Hanbal and other heavyweight of Ahlus Sunnah who didn't find anything contradicting to the Quran and Sunnah... Congratulation on becoming a mujtahid...
LOL

That's just prove what I said previously:

LOL... what you did all these while was keep on ranting that Saqifa is illegitimate. The illegitimacy was purely based on your own reasoning.

Nowhere inside hundreds, if not thousands, of your posts have you proven Saqifa was illegitimate based on Quran or Sunnah... LOL

😀Is that it😄.

[Abu Muhammad]

You must be more knowledgeable than Asy-Syafii, Ahmad ibn Hanbal and other heavyweight of Ahlus Sunnah who didn't find anything contradicting to the Quran and Sunnah... Congratulation on becoming a mujtahid...
LOL

That's just prove what I said previously:

LOL... what you did all these while was keep on ranting that Saqifa is illegitimate. The illegitimacy was purely based on your own reasoning.

Nowhere inside hundreds, if not thousands, of your posts have you proven Saqifa was illegitimate based on Quran or Sunnah... LOL

😀Is that it😄.

Yup... because I have never seen you quoting anything from Quran to prove your point. Nothing...😊

[iceman]

Don't worry. I absolutely understand your position along with your heavyweight scholars. If you accept then the foundation of your belief and faith along with the reputation and honour of the Shaykhain goes straight out of the window.

So a constant denial and a continuous confrontational stance is very important on your behalf. You will continue to discuss based on arrogance and stubbornness rather than realty and facts.☺

Reality and facts are not made up by me, you or anyone else. They are there and be it incident or event are based on reality and facts.

Here's another one, where was consultation (shura) in Saqifa? Vast majority didn't have a clue what was going on. Only three out of what...thousands of Muhajir were present in Saqifa, Abu Bakr, Omar and Obayd.

Why did the heads of the Ansar all of a sudden and out of the blue gather in Saqifa to select THEIR OWN LEADER?

This tells you that things were going AWOL. SOMETHING WASN'T RIGHT.
What was the reason for Obayd to inform Omar of what was about to happen in Saqifa? Ever thought why he was just looking for Omar and why Omar only informed Abu Bakr and why just only the three of them slipped away quietly to Saqifa?

Not to make a such an important decision on and behalf of the Ummah because they had no reason and authority to do that but to prevent the Ansaar going their separate way.

How long are you going to drag this on? You haven't proven from the Qoran or Sunah that Saqifa was legitimate. 

[Abu Muhammad]

Don't worry. I absolutely understand your position along with your heavyweight scholars. If you accept then the foundation of your belief and faith along with the reputation and honour of the Shaykhain goes straight out of the window.

So a constant denial and a continuous confrontational stance is very important on your behalf. You will continue to discuss based on arrogance and stubbornness rather than realty and facts.☺

Reality and facts are not made up by me, you or anyone else. They are there and be it incident or event are based on reality and facts.

Here's another one, where was consultation (shura) in Saqifa? Vast majority didn't have a clue what was going on. Only three out of what...thousands of Muhajir were present in Saqifa, Abu Bakr, Omar and Obayd.

Why did the heads of the Ansar all of a sudden and out of the blue gather in Saqifa to select THEIR OWN LEADER?

This tells you that things were going AWOL. SOMETHING WASN'T RIGHT.
What was the reason for Obayd to inform Omar of what was about to happen in Saqifa? Ever thought why he was just looking for Omar and why Omar only informed Abu Bakr and why just only the three of them slipped away quietly to Saqifa?

Not to make a such an important decision on and behalf of the Ummah because they had no reason and authority to do that but to prevent the Ansaar going their separate way.

How long are you going to drag this on? You haven't proven from the Qoran or Sunah that Saqifa was legitimate. 

How many times should I say this. Even with force, let alone without shura, the selection is still legit. Because why? Because Quran and Sunnah is silent with regard to appointment of leaders after Prophet (saw). That's Ahlus Sunnah view.

Now, it's upon you to prove otherwise showing where in Quran abd Sunnah that the Saqifa is illegitimate, which you have been evading all along.

[Link]

Because why? Because Quran and Sunnah is silent with regard to appointment of leaders after Prophet (saw). That's Ahlus Sunnah view.

A highly irrational view given Quran says it has not neglected anything pertaining to guidance and given all the kinds of examples and parables pertaining to guiding humanity.

[iceman]

Don't worry. I absolutely understand your position along with your heavyweight scholars. If you accept then the foundation of your belief and faith along with the reputation and honour of the Shaykhain goes straight out of the window.

So a constant denial and a continuous confrontational stance is very important on your behalf. You will continue to discuss based on arrogance and stubbornness rather than realty and facts.☺

Reality and facts are not made up by me, you or anyone else. They are there and be it incident or event are based on reality and facts.

Here's another one, where was consultation (shura) in Saqifa? Vast majority didn't have a clue what was going on. Only three out of what...thousands of Muhajir were present in Saqifa, Abu Bakr, Omar and Obayd.

Why did the heads of the Ansar all of a sudden and out of the blue gather in Saqifa to select THEIR OWN LEADER?

This tells you that things were going AWOL. SOMETHING WASN'T RIGHT.
What was the reason for Obayd to inform Omar of what was about to happen in Saqifa? Ever thought why he was just looking for Omar and why Omar only informed Abu Bakr and why just only the three of them slipped away quietly to Saqifa?

Not to make a such an important decision on and behalf of the Ummah because they had no reason and authority to do that but to prevent the Ansaar going their separate way.

How long are you going to drag this on? You haven't proven from the Qoran or Sunah that Saqifa was legitimate. 

How many times should I say this. Even with force, let alone without shura, the selection is still legit. Because why? Because Quran and Sunnah is silent with regard to appointment of leaders after Prophet (saw). That's Ahlus Sunnah view.

Now, it's upon you to prove otherwise showing where in Quran abd Sunnah that the Saqifa is illegitimate, which you have been evading all along.

'Because Quran and Sunnah is silent with regard to appointment of leaders after Prophet (saw). That's Ahlus Sunnah view.'

What an absolute joke. Quran (Allah) and Sunah (Prophet) are both silent on such an important and crucial matter? And this is what you believe in?

Ok.

[Link]

Don't worry. I absolutely understand your position along with your heavyweight scholars. If you accept then the foundation of your belief and faith along with the reputation and honour of the Shaykhain goes straight out of the window.

So a constant denial and a continuous confrontational stance is very important on your behalf. You will continue to discuss based on arrogance and stubbornness rather than realty and facts.☺

Reality and facts are not made up by me, you or anyone else. They are there and be it incident or event are based on reality and facts.

Here's another one, where was consultation (shura) in Saqifa? Vast majority didn't have a clue what was going on. Only three out of what...thousands of Muhajir were present in Saqifa, Abu Bakr, Omar and Obayd.

Why did the heads of the Ansar all of a sudden and out of the blue gather in Saqifa to select THEIR OWN LEADER?

This tells you that things were going AWOL. SOMETHING WASN'T RIGHT.
What was the reason for Obayd to inform Omar of what was about to happen in Saqifa? Ever thought why he was just looking for Omar and why Omar only informed Abu Bakr and why just only the three of them slipped away quietly to Saqifa?

Not to make a such an important decision on and behalf of the Ummah because they had no reason and authority to do that but to prevent the Ansaar going their separate way.

How long are you going to drag this on? You haven't proven from the Qoran or Sunah that Saqifa was legitimate. 

How many times should I say this. Even with force, let alone without shura, the selection is still legit. Because why? Because Quran and Sunnah is silent with regard to appointment of leaders after Prophet (saw). That's Ahlus Sunnah view.

Now, it's upon you to prove otherwise showing where in Quran abd Sunnah that the Saqifa is illegitimate, which you have been evading all along.

'Because Quran and Sunnah is silent with regard to appointment of leaders after Prophet (saw). That's Ahlus Sunnah view.'

What an absolute joke. Quran (Allah) and Sunah (Prophet) are both silent on such an important and crucial matter? And this is what you believe in?

Ok.

I will tell you how Quran would look like if Shurah was legitimate. It would have given ample stories of the past of how communities got together in absence of a Guide from God being apparent and appoint good leaders.

It would have done that non-stop. But it has done the opposite. It has narrated how people pick their leaders but said that has lead them to the hell-fire. That is what it emphasized on with respect to choosing leaders instead of submitting to the leaders God has appointed and has emphasized through out why he appoints Prophets as Leaders who guide by his command along with books that have explaination to all things, and made the books the leader through the leaders it appoints and made the leaders it appoints leaders through the book.

They go together.

And what did Prophet emphasize on?  "I leavy you two weights, Quran and my family...."

[iceman]

O Dawud! Surely we have made you a viceroy (Khalifa) in the land, so judge between men with justice and do not follow desire, lest it should lead you astray from the path of Allah (as for) those who go astray from the path ofAllah, they shall surely have a severe punishment because they forgot the day of reckoning.” (3:26)

"And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalifah, they said: what! Will You place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Your praise and extol Your holiness? He said: surely I know what you do not know.” (2:30)

Here a question arises that when God appointed a khalifah (according to the verse 2:30), was that appointment
exclusive to Adam or not? The answer is negative. As we saw before Dawud was khalifah. Certainly Moses, Jesus, the Noble Prophet (S) and some other prophets were also khalifah. Some scholars use the following verse as one of their reasons to prove that it was not exclusive to Adam.

"And He is who has made you successors (Khalifa) in the land and raised some of you above others by (various) grades, that He might try you by what He has given you.” (6:165)

[iceman]

Khalifa;

In the Holy Qoran the word ‘Khalifa’ sometime is being used as one person and sometime as a group people. Strange enough, in the Holy Quran you will never find a verse mention that Khalifa (Successor) choice is in the hand of human being, except on one occasion where Prophet Musa (a.s) chosed his brother Harun (a.s) who was also a Prophet from God and follow His command. In all situation it is only Allah to chose or appoint Khalifa.

The responsible of a Khalifa is to Judge people with justice, act rightly and follow not vain desire or the path of mischief-makers, these we can learn from these chapters and verses 38:26 and 7:142

Khalifa  38:26  – God Chose

“O’ Daud! Verily WE have appointed thee a vicegerent (Khalifa) on earth, so judge thou between the people with justice and follow not vain desire, ….

Akhlifuni Musa (a.s) chose Harun (a.s) not people – 7:142

Said Moses unto his brother Aaron;

“Take thou my place among my people, Act rightly and follow not the path of the mischief-makers"

We are also promised by God that He will send a Khalifa at the end of the world to rescue Muslim from the cruel situation. This we can read verse 24:55

Liyastakhlifanahum   24:55 – God Chose

God has promised unto those of you who believe and do good deeds that He will certainly appoint them successors in the earth as He appointed successors those before them….

Here are the rest verses of Khalifa from the Holy Quran are as follow :

Khalifa  2:30  --  God Chose

When said thy Lord unto the angels: ‘Verily I (intend to) appoint a vicegerent in the earth..

Khalaifa  10:73 ( Noah) – God Chose

But they belied him so We delivered him and those with him in the Ark, and We made them successors..

Khulafaa  7:69   (Hud after Qaum Noah) – God Chosen

….And remember ye when He made you successors after Noah’s people

Khulafaa   7:74  (Qaum Saleh After Ad)  -- God Chose

And remember when He made you successors after the (people) Ad.

Khalaifa 35:39 (general) – God chose

“He is the One Who made you the successors (of those who preceded you) in the earth..”

[iceman]

Are you still going to say that Allah (Qoran) is silent on selecting a Khalifa, successor, a vicegerent? The previous two posts were Allah (Qoran) for you and inshallah we will move on to the Prophet (Sunah) next.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Khalifa;

In the Holy Qoran the word ‘Khalifa’ sometime is being used as one person and sometime as a group people. Strange enough, in the Holy Quran you will never find a verse mention that Khalifa (Successor) choice is in the hand of human being, except on one occasion where Prophet Musa (a.s) chosed his brother Harun (a.s) who was also a Prophet from God and follow His command. In all situation it is only Allah to chose or appoint Khalifa.

The responsible of a Khalifa is to Judge people with justice, act rightly and follow not vain desire or the path of mischief-makers, these we can learn from these chapters and verses 38:26 and 7:142

Khalifa  38:26  – God Chose

“O’ Daud! Verily WE have appointed thee a vicegerent (Khalifa) on earth, so judge thou between the people with justice and follow not vain desire, ….

Akhlifuni Musa (a.s) chose Harun (a.s) not people – 7:142

Said Moses unto his brother Aaron;

“Take thou my place among my people, Act rightly and follow not the path of the mischief-makers"

We are also promised by God that He will send a Khalifa at the end of the world to rescue Muslim from the cruel situation. This we can read verse 24:55

Liyastakhlifanahum   24:55 – God Chose

God has promised unto those of you who believe and do good deeds that He will certainly appoint them successors in the earth as He appointed successors those before them….

Here are the rest verses of Khalifa from the Holy Quran are as follow :

Khalifa  2:30  --  God Chose

When said thy Lord unto the angels: ‘Verily I (intend to) appoint a vicegerent in the earth..

Khalaifa  10:73 ( Noah) – God Chose

But they belied him so We delivered him and those with him in the Ark, and We made them successors..

Khulafaa  7:69   (Hud after Qaum Noah) – God Chosen

….And remember ye when He made you successors after Noah’s people

Khulafaa   7:74  (Qaum Saleh After Ad)  -- God Chose

And remember when He made you successors after the (people) Ad.

Khalaifa 35:39 (general) – God chose

“He is the One Who made you the successors (of those who preceded you) in the earth..”

Everything you posted from the Quran was regarding the prophets beung khalifa/representatives of Allah on earth.

What on earth has that got to do with Abu Bakr or Ali?

The Quran gives general guidance to the muslims to consult amongst themselves.

[iceman]

Khalifa;

In the Holy Qoran the word ‘Khalifa’ sometime is being used as one person and sometime as a group people. Strange enough, in the Holy Quran you will never find a verse mention that Khalifa (Successor) choice is in the hand of human being, except on one occasion where Prophet Musa (a.s) chosed his brother Harun (a.s) who was also a Prophet from God and follow His command. In all situation it is only Allah to chose or appoint Khalifa.

The responsible of a Khalifa is to Judge people with justice, act rightly and follow not vain desire or the path of mischief-makers, these we can learn from these chapters and verses 38:26 and 7:142

Khalifa  38:26  – God Chose

“O’ Daud! Verily WE have appointed thee a vicegerent (Khalifa) on earth, so judge thou between the people with justice and follow not vain desire, ….

Akhlifuni Musa (a.s) chose Harun (a.s) not people – 7:142

Said Moses unto his brother Aaron;

“Take thou my place among my people, Act rightly and follow not the path of the mischief-makers"

We are also promised by God that He will send a Khalifa at the end of the world to rescue Muslim from the cruel situation. This we can read verse 24:55

Liyastakhlifanahum   24:55 – God Chose

God has promised unto those of you who believe and do good deeds that He will certainly appoint them successors in the earth as He appointed successors those before them….

Here are the rest verses of Khalifa from the Holy Quran are as follow :

Khalifa  2:30  --  God Chose

When said thy Lord unto the angels: ‘Verily I (intend to) appoint a vicegerent in the earth..

Khalaifa  10:73 ( Noah) – God Chose

But they belied him so We delivered him and those with him in the Ark, and We made them successors..

Khulafaa  7:69   (Hud after Qaum Noah) – God Chosen

….And remember ye when He made you successors after Noah’s people

Khulafaa   7:74  (Qaum Saleh After Ad)  -- God Chose

And remember when He made you successors after the (people) Ad.

Khalaifa 35:39 (general) – God chose

“He is the One Who made you the successors (of those who preceded you) in the earth..”

Everything you posted from the Quran was regarding the prophets beung khalifa/representatives of Allah on earth.

What on earth has that got to do with Abu Bakr or Ali?

The Quran gives general guidance to the muslims to consult amongst themselves.

If you open up your heart a little and widen up mind a bit, it is Allah who decides for mankind. Not mankind who decides for mankind. Allah created heaven and earth and what ever in between. Allah created Angels, Genies and humans. Allah decided on who is going to be what. Allah decided on who are going to be Messengers, Prophets, successors, vicegerents etc. And after the final Messenger he became silent and left it to Abu Bakr and Omar to decide who is going to succeed Muhammad and be a Khalifa to mankind?

[Abu Muhammad]

Are you still going to say that Allah (Qoran) is silent on selecting a Khalifa, successor, a vicegerent? The previous two posts were Allah (Qoran) for you and inshallah we will move on to the Prophet (Sunah) next.

@iceman,

Waiting from the sunnah before I start comenting...

[iceman]

Now the Prophet (Sunah);

It was narrated that Jaabir ibn Samurah said: I entered upon the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with my father, and I heard him say:

"This matter will not end until there have been among them twelve caliphs.” Then he said something that I could not hear, and I said to my father: What did he say? He said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (no. 7222); Muslim (no. 1821).

According to other versions also narrated by Muslim:

“Islam will continue to prevail through twelve caliphs.”

“This religion will continue to prevail and be strong until there have been twelve caliphs.”

According to the version narrated by al-Bukhaari, it says: “There will be twelve rulers.” Then he said something I did not hear, and my father said that he said: “All of them will be from Quraysh.”

[iceman]

Another one from the Qoran;

"Surely, Allah chose Adam and Nuh (Noah) and the descendants of Ibrahim (Abraham) and the descendants of `Imran above the nations. Offspring one of the other; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. 3:34”
“Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants. 35:32”

Note: 'AND THE DESCENDENTS OF'. Not just the Prophets and Messengers but also THE DESCENDENTS.

[Abu Muhammad]

Is that all from the Sunnah? I think you can do better than that.

Or do you require my assistance to list down the other hadiths to support your argument?

[iceman]

Is that all from the Sunnah? I think you can do better than that.

Or do you require my assistance to list down the other hadiths to support your argument?

😃 The list is endless be it Qoran and Sunah, reality and facts or sense and logic. Allah created Adam and from there mankind began, grew and evolved. Allah was so concerned about his creation (mankind) that he put in place a Khalifa (Adam) even before mankind evolved and started to grow in numbers. He sent a total of 124,000 for the guidance and governance of mankind.

Yes as Messengers and Prophets but Allah chose and decided.  But.....yes, there is a but that after the last Messenger Allah suddenly out of the blue became silent on the successor to Muhammad (s) and a vicegerent and Khalifa for mankind and the Muslim Ummah? Allah suddenly backed off and the Prophet just didn't bother about such an important and crucial issue. But the Shaykhain thought it was crucial and very important.

We can go on and on and on with this but.....yes there is a but on my behalf as well. And that is we need to protect and defend the Shaykhain, their reputation and honour. For this constant denial, confrontational stance, a stubborn attitude and behaviour full of arrogance is vital. I understand that suspicions will be raised and doubts will cast regardless through ifs and buts. At the end of the day we are responsible for ourselves and not each other. And we will be questioned about ourselves and not each other. So I suggest you worry about yourselves rather than trying your best to prove us wrong.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

@iceman

The only real proof you had is the hadith of the 12.
The problem with this is that it doesn't say they are from ahle bayt nor does it name them.
Just because your sect conjured up the imaginary 12th Imam to fit into this hadith doesn't mean your belief is same as that prophesied.

As for saqifa, key figures were consulted & this is following the guidelines in the Quran which states consultation is what the muslims must do.

[iceman]

@iceman

The only real proof you had is the hadith of the 12.
The problem with this is that it doesn't say they are from ahle bayt nor does it name them.
Just because your sect conjured up the imaginary 12th Imam to fit into this hadith doesn't mean your belief is same as that prophesied.

As for saqifa, key figures were consulted & this is following the guidelines in the Quran which states consultation is what the muslims must do.
[/quote

😃 You can undermine and reject the principles of our belief and faith as much as you want but one thing is for sure, Saqifa was an unfortunate incident and the Shaykhain rushed there to prevent something terrible from about to happen and that is to stop the Ansars going their separate way.

Saqifa wasn't a public gathering or an organised event. There was no consultation there because the vast majority didn't have a clue and the Shaykhain were given no authority to act on behalf of the Muhajir. Abu Bakr's appointed was coincidental and hasty with no approval or merit what do ever and Saqifa had no legitimacy. And we all know how the decision was forced on those who opposed it.

[iceman]

You can undermine and reject the principles of our belief and faith as much as you want but one thing is for sure, Saqifa was an unfortunate incident and the Shaykhain rushed there to prevent something terrible from about to happen and that is to stop the Ansars going their separate way.

Saqifa wasn't a public gathering or an organised event. There was no consultation there because the vast majority didn't have a clue and the Shaykhain were given no authority to act on behalf of the Muhajir. Abu Bakr's appointed was coincidental and hasty with no approval or merit what do ever and Saqifa had no legitimacy. And we all know how the decision was forced on those who opposed it.