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When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?

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Khaled

When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« on: October 02, 2017, 10:48:46 PM »
بسم الله، الحمدلله، والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله، وعلى آله وصحبه ومن والاه

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

A question I recently thought of is, “When did the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم actually declare the Imamate of Imam Ali رضي الله عنه?”  The 12er Shi’as make the claim that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم spent his entire Prophethood calling the people to the worship of Allah, and to the Imamate of Imam Ali and his 11 descendants.  While mainstream Muslims reject the claim the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم called to this concept, citing such objections such as lack of evidence for it in primary sources, as well as it contradicting several key concepts of Islam, most notably the Finality of Prophethood.  Therefore, this becomes an important question because accepting Imamate can change the way we understand almost the entire Qur’an.  This is especially true when reading verses which seemingly praise the Companions, considering that 12er Shi’as make the claim that 99% of them rejected the concept of Imamah immediately after the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم’s death.  The point of this essay is to highlight how this directly responds to certain verses, most notably (3:13) in which Allah سبحانه وتعالى says:

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قَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ آيَةٌ فِي فِئَتَيْنِ الْتَقَتَا ۖ فِئَةٌ تُقَاتِلُ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَأُخْرَىٰ كَافِرَةٌ يَرَوْنَهُم مِّثْلَيْهِمْ رَأْيَ الْعَيْنِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ يُؤَيِّدُ بِنَصْرِهِ مَن يَشَاءُ ۗ إِنَّ فِي ذَ‌ٰلِكَ لَعِبْرَةً لِّأُولِي الْأَبْصَارِ
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There has already been a sign for you (O Jews) in the two armies that met (in combat i.e. the battle of Badr). One was fighting in the Cause of Allah, and as for the other, (they) were disbelievers. They (the believers) saw them (the disbelievers) with their own eyes twice their number (although they were thrice their number). And Allah supports with His Victory whom He wills. Verily, in this is a lesson for those who understand.

Firstly, it is important to establish that 12er Shi’as make the claim that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم declared Imam Ali رضي الله عنه as his successor at several different times during his Prophethood.  The most obvious cases happen near the end of the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم’s life in this dunya, such as the incident of Ghadeer Khum, and the incident of the Pen and Paper.  However, they also claim this happened earlier near the beginning of the Prophethood as well.  They claim the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم declared Ali رضي الله عنه as his successor early when he gathered the Qurashi leaders around to proclaim his Prophethood.  They also appeal to (42:23), which they translate it to mean “I don’t ask you for any reward except loving my family.”

In response, I make the claim that this is extremely problematic for several reasons.  Obviously, the first report is rejected due to issues with the chain.  While the issues with the ayah are linguistic and contradicts the mutawatir reports from the Sahaba that provide us with the interpretation mainstream Muslims accept.  However, if we were to accept the 12er argument that the first report happened, and that their interpretation of the Ayah is indeed the correct one, then we still have an issue with how this contradicts verse (3:13) in which Allah describes the Muslims in the Battle of Badr as “fighting in the Cause of Allah.”  The question here is, if the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم has declared Imam Ali’s Imamah early on, at the very least before the Battle of Badr, then were the Muslims (aka the Companions) here fighting for Imamah of Imam Ali رضي الله عنه?

In conclusion, it can be seen that the 12 Shi’as here have a problem.  Either they must reject the assertion that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم called to Imamah from the beginning of his message, or they must find a way to explain verse (3:13) away.  Some 12 Shi’as have noticed this problem, and attempted to claim that verse (42:23) was a Medini verse.  While this may seem to help the 12er cause, the problem arises when we go back to verse (3:13); did the Companions fight in the way of Allah at one point?  And was the Imamah not part of “fighting in the Cause of Allah” during the Battle of Badr?  I’m looking for a healthy discussion إن شاء الله!

!والسلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Link

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2017, 04:50:27 PM »
Salam

I believe Prophet preached Imammate his whole life,  the event after Hajj (Ghadeer), was to say, nominate in a clear way one last time, to make sure all generations pass on the Wilayah of Ali, the denier and believer alike, and he chose the perfect words for this and it happened.

Rasool knew very well, that if people disbelieved, they would still convey his words because they can twist as they would can twist the Quran.  But there would be a people that emphasize on the true meaning of his words and hence also find the truth of that in the Quran.

But he preached it his whole life.

The balagha verse is saying o Rasool despite in being in Quran and despite you teaching your society about your noble family and despite them in Salah and despite all you emphasized about the twelve Leaders and Successors and your family, and despite you interpreting the Quran properly and emphasizing on all allusions to your Ahlulbayt which arguments to rest of humanity in a universal way that teaches the designation of leadership and God's Name has been placed to you and your family, you must convey it in a way that reaches all generations and that the event you make it that it is conveyed to denier and believer a like, and that no matter what innovations and cover up towards your traditions and interpretation of Quran take place,  you must convey it to all generations in a way that it will be conveyed and such that enough people will then rally on the true interpretation of Quran regarding that.

Salam.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Khaled

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 08:16:19 PM »
Salam

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته

Quote
I believe Prophet preached Imammate his whole life... *snip*

بارك الله فيك for that reply.  Since we have established that  you believe the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم preached Ali رضي الله عنه's Wilayah throughout his life, do you then believe that the Sahaba fought for the Wilayah of Imam Ali عليه السلام during the Battle of Badr as per verse (3:13)?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Link

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2017, 08:43:29 PM »
Not only for Wilayah of Ali but for Wilayah of Imam Mahdi and his light to become manifest to the world:

وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءُ بَعْضٍ ۚ إِلَّا تَفْعَلُوهُ تَكُنْ فِتْنَةٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَفَسَادٌ كَبِيرٌ {73}
[Shakir 8:73] And (as for) those who disbelieve, some of them are the guardians of others; if you will not do it, there will be in the land persecution and great mischief.


They were taught love of Ahlulbayt and they knew who they were blessing in Salah and they understood Quran very well.

It is the people who fought them that didn't listen to Quran and Prophet explanation, and when they came to Islam, remained ignorant, and who were now numerous in numbers and who didn't really understand the arguments in Quran for Tawheed let alone Imammate, but just accepted Islam because it was victorious.

It was these that a Sihr regarding Quran would come about against, and believers would be tried with these people, and how they show courage against them and come to God's help against them,  and indeed the trial of the true Taweel of Quran vs the Jibt and Taghut would come about like it did in the past.

The orginal companions even if many of them did turn on their backs with regard to helping God's cause and showing courage and resolve after the Prophet,  the truth is almost all of them ended up regretting that, and came to help God's cause eventually, and preached Wilayah of Ali and his family.

Despite such companions being avalaible we see the likes of Mauwiya who father fought the Prophet grab power and people are using the courage and bravery and resolve of the original companions who fought for the sake of God and his Mastery to manifest on earth, and were full of love of God's Prophets as well as the family of Mohammad, and understood the arguments in Quran very well, to justify all the corruption and fassad of the worse of humanity after the Prophet.



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 09:19:19 PM »
None of the sahaba were aware of the names of at least half of the Imams let alone fought for their wilayah.
Even your own shia didn't know who the next Imam was at times.

Khaled

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2017, 09:28:18 PM »
Not only for Wilayah of Ali but for Wilayah of Imam Mahdi and his light to become manifest to the world *snip*

I am working with the premise that the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم preached the Imamah/Wilayah of all 12 as I mentioned in the OP.

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They were taught love of Ahlulbayt and they knew who they were blessing in Salah and they understood Quran very well.

Who is “they” here?  Are you talking about those who “fought in the cause of Allah” according to (3:13)?

Quote
It is the people who fought them that didn't listen to Quran and Prophet explanation, and when they came to Islam, remained ignorant, and who were now numerous in numbers and who didn't really understand the arguments in Quran for Tawheed let alone Imammate, but just accepted Islam because it was victorious.

Again, I’m not sure who “the people” and “them” are here?  Are we still talking about how verse (3:13) relates to the concept of Wilayah/Imamah?

Quote
*snip* The orginal companions even if many of them did turn on their backs with regard to helping God's cause and showing courage and resolve after the Prophet,  the truth is almost all of them ended up regretting that, and came to help God's cause eventually, and preached Wilayah of Ali and his family.

Really?  Can you give us the names of them?  I was under the impression that the overwhelming majority that rejected the Imamah did so until their death.

Quote
Despite such companions being avalaible we see the likes of Mauwiya who father fought the Prophet grab power and people are using the courage and bravery and resolve of the original companions who fought for the sake of God and his Mastery to manifest on earth, and were full of love of God's Prophets as well as the family of Mohammad, and understood the arguments in Quran very well, to justify all the corruption and fassad of the worse of humanity after the Prophet.

Unfortunately, it seems that you are very keen on refuting the “Sunni concept of Sahaba” that you totally overlooked the topic and how it relates to verse (3:13).  Mu’awiyah is not the topic here as he did not fight in Badr, neither is Abu Sufyah since he fought against the Muslims in Badr, rather the topic is Abu Bakr, Umar, Talha and those who are like them رضي الله عنهم أجمعين who were included as “fighting in the cause of Allah” in verse (3:13) and how that relates to the concept of Wilayah/Imamah.  Does this verse mean, according to Shi’i understanding, that Abu Bakr, Umar and Talha fought for the Wilayah of Imam Ali and his 11 descendants?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Link

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2017, 09:38:10 PM »
Salam

If you want to talk about Abu Baker and Umar, than I have to discuss the legion of Jinn and humans who deceive humanity, I have to talk about the various attempts of killing the Prophet, and I have to talk about the hypocrites, and I have to talk about their conspiracy. And I believe we have to start from whence a conspiracy is alluded to in Quran, Suratal Tahreem, and work on the theme of their plans and conspiracy.

I have to talk about how these people infiltrated and misguided humanity in the past, and how they killed the Prophets, and how the revelations were distorted.

And we will then talk about how the Prophet dealt with these undercover Muslims. The hypocrites were of two types:

1. One who deceives themselves they believe, but don't truly, and his actions all prove that.
2. One who knows he doesn't believe but takes on the appearance of a Muslim.

We can read each Surah like a pass time and just play time, or we can be serious.

There is a whole theme pertaining to these people.

So we have to see them in the past, how they acted, and how they infiltrate, and then we will see the how God and his Messenger deal with them and dealt with them during his lifetime.

Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Khaled

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2017, 10:00:34 PM »
*snip*

We can read each Surah like a pass time and just play time, or we can be serious.

There is a whole theme pertaining to these people.

So we have to see them in the past, how they acted, and how they infiltrate, and then we will see the how God and his Messenger deal with them and dealt with them during his lifetime.

I am trying to be serious here, and I am trying to find a theme between Imamah and verse (3:13).  All I'm seeing from you in return is beating around the bush and claims of jinn and other supernatural beings; which of course you can't prove or disprove.

Therefore, let us stick to what we both can agree upon; the Qur'an.  The Qur'an tells us that the people of Badr (3:13) were "fighting in the Cause of Allah." My question then becomes to you is; does mean that Abu Bakr, Umar and Talha were fighting for the Wilayah of Ali?

كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Link

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2017, 04:54:44 AM »
If you are saying that it is an implication of the verse, then my response it is not.

If you want to say, an implication of the verse is those fighting in the way of God were fighting for the Wilayah of Ali then that is true.



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Khaled

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2017, 09:21:08 PM »
If you are saying that it is an implication of the verse, then my response it is not.

If you want to say, an implication of the verse is those fighting in the way of God were fighting for the Wilayah of Ali then that is true.

So fighting in the cause of Allah means fighting for the Wilayah, but the group that was fighting in the cause of Allah does not mean that they were fighting for Wilayah?
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

Link

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2017, 02:16:40 AM »
The group that was fighting in the cause of Allah were fighting for Wilayah.

As for Abu Baker and Umar, there is no proof they were such people but all evidence from Suratal Tahreem and others, they were deceivers.
Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2017, 01:02:45 PM »
You claim a lot of "Shi'a claim" but not much evidence. Like when you say he pointed towards Imam Ali (as) while with the Quraysh leaders, I personally have not seen this in our books and if it is in our books, I would like to see it.
محور المقاومة والممانعة

Khaled

Re: When did the Prophet ص declare Imam Ali's Imamate?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2017, 07:54:56 PM »
The group that was fighting in the cause of Allah were fighting for Wilayah.

As for Abu Baker and Umar, there is no proof they were such people but all evidence from Suratal Tahreem and others, they were deceivers.
السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Sorry for taking long to reply.  I hope everything is going great with you إن شاء الله.

Anyway, I'm a little confused on your reply.  How did you exclude Abu Bakr, Omar, Talha, az-Zubair, Abdulrahman bin Awf etc from the "group that was fighting in the cause of Allah?"  Are you saying that somehow, Surat at-Tahreem and "others" show that these two individuals are excluded?  I would leave to see how.

What percentage of the 300+ Sahabah that were described as "fighting in the cause of Allah", which you took to mean fighting for the Wilayah of Ali, would you estimate were in fact NOT doing so?  Also, you haven't mentioned to me which Sahabah returned back and started fighting for the Wilayah of the Ali after the Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم's death.  Remember, you said "almost all of them regretted" going against Ali's Wilayah.

بارك الله فيكم
كلُّ سُلامى من الناس عليه صدقة كلَّ يوم تطلع فيه الشمس، تَعدلُ بين اثنين صدقة، وتعين الرَّجل في دابَّته فتحمله عليها أو ترفع له عليها متاعَه صدقة، والكلمةُ الطيِّبة صدقة، وبكلِّ خطوة تَمشيها إلى الصلاة صدقة، وتُميط الأذى عن الطريق صدقة

 

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