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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Sahabah-AhlulBayt => Topic started by: Shia not Rafidi on September 01, 2019, 06:45:37 AM

Title: When Umar RA really died
Post by: Shia not Rafidi on September 01, 2019, 06:45:37 AM
Ok, Muharram has arrived and this talk is seen everywhere..
"When Did Hazrat Umar RA Really Pass Away".. what is mostly known is that he was attacked on 31 October 644 (which is 24 Dhu al-Hijjahh) and died on 3rd of November (which is 27 Dhu al-Hijjahh)..
Then why sunnis are so obsessed with 1st of Muharram and jump into these fruitless discussions with shia and then welcomed with the terms like BULB, Beshumar, Wahabis and so on..
Kindly shed some light on this issue
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2019, 09:30:22 AM
Ok, Muharram has arrived and this talk is seen everywhere..
"When Did Hazrat Umar RA Really Pass Away".. what is mostly known is that he was attacked on 31 October 644 (which is 24 Dhu al-Hijjahh) and died on 3rd of November (which is 27 Dhu al-Hijjahh)..
Then why sunnis are so obsessed with 1st of Muharram and jump into these fruitless discussions with shia and then welcomed with the terms like BULB, Beshumar, Wahabis and so on..
Kindly shed some light on this issue

As per the most famous and majority view then he was attacked on 26 th Dhulhijjah and died on 1st of Muharram and was buried in morning of 1st Muharram .

If you know Urdu then watch these three videos which are filled with references from classical scholars.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LZ1uhYtnvAg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wCXIpgYBjaM&feature=youtu.be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lcAroLptpDg&feature=youtu.be

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LZ1uhYtnvAg
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: Shia not Rafidi on September 01, 2019, 11:46:53 AM
As per the most famous and majority view then he was attacked on 26 th Dhulhijjah and died on 1st of Muharram and was buried in morning of 1st Muharram .

If you know Urdu then watch these three videos which are filled with references from classical scholars.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LZ1uhYtnvAg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wCXIpgYBjaM&feature=youtu.be

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lcAroLptpDg&feature=youtu.be

 https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=LZ1uhYtnvAg
Thank you for your kind info, I'll check the references In Sha Allah
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: Shia not Rafidi on September 01, 2019, 11:48:36 AM
@Noor,
BTW, are you from Pakistan ? Just asking
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 01, 2019, 01:26:29 PM
@Noor,
BTW, are you from Pakistan ? Just asking
nopes.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: fgss on September 02, 2019, 07:51:21 AM
Ok, Muharram has arrived and this talk is seen everywhere..
"When Did Hazrat Umar RA Really Pass Away".. what is mostly known is that he was attacked on 31 October 644 (which is 24 Dhu al-Hijjahh) and died on 3rd of November (which is 27 Dhu al-Hijjahh)..
Then why sunnis are so obsessed with 1st of Muharram and jump into these fruitless discussions with shia and then welcomed with the terms like BULB, Beshumar, Wahabis and so on..
Kindly shed some light on this issue

This is the reference which both Maulana Muhammad Ishaq and Engr Muhammad Ali Mirza have used in their videos.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: fgss on September 02, 2019, 08:55:53 AM
1st moharam is not correct date.

قال امام محمد بن سعدؒ (المتوفى: 230هـ) في الطبقات الکبریٰ،
أخبرنا عمرو بن عاصم الكلابي قال: أخبرنا همام بن يحيى قال: أخبرنا قتادة أن عمر بن الخطاب طعن يوم الأربعاء ومات يوم الخميس. رحمه الله.

قال ابن الاثير في اسد الغابة :
توفي عُمَر لأربع ليال بقين من ذي الحجة، وبويع عثمان يَوْم الأثنين لليلة بقيت من ذي الحجة.

قال الذهبي: "استشهد يوم الأربعاء لأربع أو ثلاث بقين من ذي الحجة، سنة ثلاث وعشرين من
الهجرة، وهو ابن ثلاث وستين سنة على الصحيح

Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 02, 2019, 08:37:01 PM
1st moharam is not correct date.

قال امام محمد بن سعدؒ (المتوفى: 230هـ) في الطبقات الکبریٰ،
أخبرنا عمرو بن عاصم الكلابي قال: أخبرنا همام بن يحيى قال: أخبرنا قتادة أن عمر بن الخطاب طعن يوم الأربعاء ومات يوم الخميس. رحمه الله.

قال ابن الاثير في اسد الغابة :
توفي عُمَر لأربع ليال بقين من ذي الحجة، وبويع عثمان يَوْم الأثنين لليلة بقيت من ذي الحجة.

قال الذهبي: "استشهد يوم الأربعاء لأربع أو ثلاث بقين من ذي الحجة، سنة ثلاث وعشرين من
الهجرة، وهو ابن ثلاث وستين سنة على الصحيح

The First report from Qatadah is Mursal because he wasn't born during era of Umar(RA), he was born after 60 AH. And this doesn't exactly say when he died, it just states, that he was attacked on Wednesday and died on Thursday.

For the rest watch the videos, because the evidence on which Ishaq Jhalvi and Mirza relied on was refuted in this video:
&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

And see this report as well.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: fgss on September 04, 2019, 08:24:51 AM
The First report from Qatadah is Mursal because he wasn't born during era of Umar(RA), he was born after 60 AH. And this doesn't exactly say when he died, it just states, that he was attacked on Wednesday and died on Thursday.

For the rest watch the videos, because the evidence on which Ishaq Jhalvi and Mirza relied on was refuted in this video:
&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

And see this report as well.

Mufti Rashid himself is doing the same thing for which he is criticising others, in his another video where he is defending ameer muawiya about abusing Imam Ali. Like quoting half hadith, twisting word meaning etc.

And its not only about Engr Mirza and Maulana Ishaq. Famous ahlul sunnah researchers like Dhahabi and ibn hajr also testify the same.

https://tinyurl.com/y3g5fdls
https://tinyurl.com/y587v3ey

Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 05, 2019, 10:16:41 PM
Mufti Rashid himself is doing the same thing for which he is criticising others, in his another video where he is defending ameer muawiya about abusing Imam Ali. Like quoting half hadith, twisting word meaning etc.
That’s the problem here, instead of  looking at the evidence being presented here, you are going after the individual. That’s why I provided the links to two other individuals who presented the similar references, which actually invalidates your criticism.


And its not only about Engr Mirza and Maulana Ishaq. Famous ahlul sunnah researchers like Dhahabi and ibn hajr also testify the same.

https://tinyurl.com/y3g5fdls
https://tinyurl.com/y587v3ey
The first issue with this is that . Majority of scholars who came centuries before these scholars have said that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram and was injured on 26th. So if some later scholar tries to go against them then their view doesn’t hold much weight.

Secondly, the books you are referring to are actually summarized versions of Tahzeeb Kamal, that’s why you find similar info in both.

And if you want to see Imam Dhahabi’s personal view then it was mentioned in the first video link I gave you.

 https://youtu.be/LZ1uhYtnvAg

See from 9:42 to 9:50 it’s from Siyar alam al-nubala of Imam Dhahabi.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: fgss on September 07, 2019, 10:06:27 AM
That’s the problem here, instead of  looking at the evidence being presented here, you are going after the individual. That’s why I provided the links to two other individuals who presented the similar references, which actually invalidates your criticism.


I just pointed out the fact that for the things he is criticizing others, he himself is doing the same in his other videos.


The first issue with this is that . Majority of scholars who came centuries before these scholars have said that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram and was injured on 26th. So if some later scholar tries to go against them then their view doesn’t hold much weight.

Secondly, the books you are referring to are actually summarized versions of Tahzeeb Kamal, that’s why you find similar info in both.

And if you want to see Imam Dhahabi’s personal view then it was mentioned in the first video link I gave you.

 https://youtu.be/LZ1uhYtnvAg

See from 9:42 to 9:50 it’s from Siyar alam al-nubala of Imam Dhahabi.



As for the reference part here is the full detail. Its dhil hijjah not moharram.

http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died
Post by: fgss on September 07, 2019, 12:39:47 PM
More narrations in favor of dhil hijjah.

https://tinyurl.com/yxsjezz4
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 07, 2019, 07:11:00 PM
More narrations in favor of dhil hijjah.

https://tinyurl.com/yxsjezz4
What matters is their reliability not just reports. And as the scholars mentioned we find majority hold that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram. And this is the mashoor view as per Ibn Katheer.

And not one but two scholars I quoted said that as per imam Dhahabi in siyar, Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram.

Do you agree that Mohammad Ali Mirza lied when he said that none from classical scholars said that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram?
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: fgss on September 08, 2019, 12:42:21 PM
What matters is their reliability not just reports. And as the scholars mentioned we find majority hold that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram. And this is the mashoor view as per Ibn Katheer.

Yes reliability matters more, hence to be honest the opinion of Imam ibn Kathir carries less weight as he was not a rijal expert and his books contain many odd reports. Same is the case with Imam Suyuti. Whereas ibn Hajar asqalani, who is authority in ilm rijal and hadith said in almost all his works that Umar (as) died in dhil hijjah 23 hijrah.
http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3

And its also a fact that reports in favor of dhil hijjah are more in number compared to other view. Ibn Hajar accepted this view hence reports are not all weak.

And its about the truth not just majority opinion. Majority can also be wrong sometimes. Have you seen this post of brother Farid on twitter.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Farid_0v/status/1158706317583880192

Where he showed that the claim about the merit of fasting ashura and arafa is actually false. Something which is agreed upon by all four sunni schools of fiqah.

1st moharram or 26,27 dhil hijjah is a minor issue compared to that one.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: fgss on September 08, 2019, 12:57:11 PM
And not one but two scholars I quoted said that as per imam Dhahabi in siyar, Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram.

Do you agree that Mohammad Ali Mirza lied when he said that none from classical scholars said that Umar(r) died on 1st Muharram?

But I did not find the reference of Imam Dhahabi on vol-2 p.459, pdf from maktab waqfeya. Can you provide the online source.

Yes I think Muhammad Ali Mirza exaggerated and lied there. And also he did not show proper evidences in support of his claim. He mostly relied upon Usud al-ghaba only.

Also I like to point out that the other video you shared also tells a lie. This one https://youtu.be/LZ1uhYtnvAg

In evidence no. 4 he quoted Tarikh Khalifa bin Khayyat (d.240AH), teacher of Imam Bukhari, and it is perhaps the most earliest reliable work on history.

But he did not tell the full story. Why? Because it was not in his support at all.

See the attachment.

Its under the heading events of 23 hijrah. No where it is mentioned that Umar (as) died on 1st moharram 24 hijrah in this early book on history. It only says when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah and others say seven days.

Rather it is mentioned with full isnad that he died on Wednesday and still four days were remaining in dhil hijjah 23 hijrah.

So to say that other opinion carry no weight is false.

Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 08, 2019, 04:52:37 PM
But I did not find the reference of Imam Dhahabi on vol-2 p.459, pdf from maktab waqfeya. Can you provide the online source.
As you can see in the scan from Siyar, Umar(R) was buried on 1st of Muharram, and then Shura took place for appointment of next Caliph. This implies he died same day, as the two scholars explained, because it's not possible that three days the body of Umar(R) would be kept without any reason.

Yes I think Muhammad Ali Mirza exaggerated and lied there. And also he did not show proper evidences in support of his claim.
That's why we claim that Mirza is a Fraud and a liar, don't listen to him, lay people don't realize how cleverly he blends his lies with the truth.

Also I like to point out that the other video you shared also tells a lie. This one https://youtu.be/LZ1uhYtnvAg

In evidence no. 4 he quoted Tarikh Khalifa bin Khayyat (d.240AH), teacher of Imam Bukhari, and it is perhaps the most earliest reliable work on history.

But he did not tell the full story. Why? Because it was not in his support at all.

See the attachment.

Its under the heading events of 23 hijrah. No where it is mentioned that Umar (as) died on 1st moharram 24 hijrah in this early book on history. It only says when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah and others say seven days.
It's not his LIE, but rather it's your blatant LIE.

You Said:It only says when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah and others say seven days.

But Actually you chopped off this important part "فعاش ثلاثة ايام" which was before, "others say seven days". This part says that he lived for three days. Now after we add this part then this is what it becomes.

"when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah, HE LIVED FOR THREE DAYS and others say seven days".


This implies that he died in Muharram and this is the view of Khalifa bin Khayyat.

Rather it is mentioned with full isnad that he died on Wednesday and still four days were remaining in dhil hijjah 23 hijrah.

So to say that other opinion carry no weight is false.
If this report is assumed to be authentic, even then this can be easily reconciled. The view of Imam Khalifa bin Khayyat or the view in this report of Kitab al-Mihan, page 66 can be reconciled, that the report you mentioned is talking about the day when Umar(R) was attacked. You can see this report from Mu'jam al-Awsat, where Umar(R) asks: Who attacked(Qatal) me?. So it doesn't mean that Umar(R) is asking who killed me, similarly in the report you mentioned its talking about the day when Umar(R) was attacked. And he died on 1st Muharram as other report and Khalifa, etc mentioned.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: fgss on September 11, 2019, 11:04:49 AM
That's why we claim that Mirza is a Fraud and a liar, don't listen to him, lay people don't realize how cleverly he blends his lies with the truth.

This applies to almost all present day scholars, no one is infallible. And I think you should email him and show him the evidences and ask for the public apology or further clarification about his claims.


As you can see in the scan from Siyar, Umar(R) was buried on 1st of Muharram, and then Shura took place for appointment of next Caliph. This implies he died same day, as the two scholars explained, because it's not possible that three days the body of Umar(R) would be kept without any reason.

It's not his LIE, but rather it's your blatant LIE.

You Said:It only says when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah and others say seven days.

But Actually you chopped off this important part "فعاش ثلاثة ايام" which was before, "others say seven days". This part says that he lived for three days. Now after we add this part then this is what it becomes.

"when he got stabbed, there were three days remaining in dhil hijjah, HE LIVED FOR THREE DAYS and others say seven days".


This implies that he died in Muharram and this is the view of Khalifa bin Khayyat.
If this report is assumed to be authentic, even then this can be easily reconciled. The view of Imam Khalifa bin Khayyat or the view in this report of Kitab al-Mihan, page 66 can be reconciled, that the report you mentioned is talking about the day when Umar(R) was attacked. You can see this report from Mu'jam al-Awsat, where Umar(R) asks: Who attacked(Qatal) me?. So it doesn't mean that Umar(R) is asking who killed me, similarly in the report you mentioned its talking about the day when Umar(R) was attacked. And he died on 1st Muharram as other report and Khalifa, etc mentioned.


I apologize for my mistakes (if there are any).

Here is what I personally believe regarding this matter and after this brief discussion.

According to Imam Dhahbi, Hazrat Umar (as) died on 1st muharram, so the heading is under year 24AH. Ans he also showed a report in support of his claim, unlike ibn Khayyat. Imam ibn Khayyat has put it under year 23AH. There is nothing there in support of 1st muharram except some conjecture, I mean no report. All the reports on p.152-153 tells other story.

No doubt Engr. Mirza's arguments are not satisfactory. But to claim that "Its a established historical fact that Umar (as) died on 1st Muharram is a big lie"

The scholars mentioned in the videos you shared are not a huge list. What about those scholars and historians who are not mentioned. And also the reports in support of Dhil Hijjah are equal in number to the other view, if not more (actually they are more). As it can be seen from Tarikh Madina and Tarikh Kahlifa bin Khayyat alone.

And the end result is:
http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar (if its wrong you should edit this bcoz world follows this page which is made by sunnis I think)
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 11, 2019, 11:59:46 AM
This applies to almost all present day scholars, no one is infallible. And I think you should email him and show him the evidences and ask for the public apology or further clarification about his claims.
Mirza's case is different he is a liar and fraud, he lies, makes deceitful translations, applies double standards, etc. I have had personal discussion with him when he wasn't famous, from that time i realized that he is a deviant. And do you think that no one has pointed out Mirza's lies and deceit? There are many in the form of videos as well, yet he never dares to make apology, that's only drama before his blind followers, like choosing some minute mistakes of his and making public apology just to gain confidence. And when his lies, or big blunders are pointed out, he chooses to ignore.


I apologize for my mistakes (if there are any).
Im glad that a LIE turned into a mistake, It was a LIE because you thought it came out from some Scholar. Anyways human being do make mistake.

Imam ibn Khayyat has put it under year 23AH. There is nothing there in support of 1st muharram except some conjecture, I mean no report. All the reports on p.152-153 tells other story.
It's not conjecture, When a Scholar mentions a date while presenting different reports, it shows that he had certain info with him, but just that he didn't get a narrator narrating that info to him, while he got that info from books of scholar, which he relied upon, that could be a better explanation to this.
 
No doubt Engr. Mirza's arguments are not satisfactory. But to claim that "Its a established historical fact that Umar (as) died on 1st Muharram is a big lie"
It's historical fact because of reliable report present, which i showed you, and Multiple scholars shared this view and Ibn Katheer calls it Mashoor view.

The scholars mentioned in the videos you shared are not a huge list. What about those scholars and historians who are not mentioned. And also the reports in support of Dhil Hijjah are equal in number to the other view, if not more (actually they are more). As it can be seen from Tarikh Madina and Tarikh Kahlifa bin Khayyat alone.
The question here is NOT just about reports, rather authentic reports. And as i told you authentic reports of Dhul Hijjah can be reconciled with the one on First Muharram, because Its True that Umar(R) was stabbed in Dhul Hijjah, but authentic reports and Authoritative Scholars show that he died on 1st Muharram. So there is nothing contradictory here.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: fgss on September 12, 2019, 09:37:30 AM
Mirza's case is different he is a liar and fraud, he lies, makes deceitful translations, applies double standards, etc. I have had personal discussion with him when he wasn't famous, from that time i realized that he is a deviant. And do you think that no one has pointed out Mirza's lies and deceit? There are many in the form of videos as well, yet he never dares to make apology, that's only drama before his blind followers, like choosing some minute mistakes of his and making public apology just to gain confidence. And when his lies, or big blunders are pointed out, he chooses to ignore.

Now this is double standard.

On one hand you are defending people, who have committed major sins throughout their life, only because there is a hadith about the gald tidings. And how he got there is another story.

There is also a hadith which says eventually every muslim will entre jannah. So does it means that we should not point out anyone's mistakes or sins, because the fate of every muslim is in the end jannah. That's the major issue with ahlul sunnah and perhaps the main reason of shia-sunni rift since centuries. See Quran 4:135 and 5:8.

And you think Engr. Mirza is alone is this thing. Youtube is full of the lies of almost every present day scholar from every school of thought. Big liars and deviated people are actually those who are following and defending fairy tales, super natural things etc.

I am not his regular listner or a die hard fan, neither of ummayds, and I do not agree with him in whatever he says. He has his own shortcomings but his most of the stuff is based on only primary sunni books unlike many others.

Please quote his other major lies and blunders, I will email him and see how he responds, as he often says he is open to critisism. Lets see.


  It's historical fact because of reliable report present, which i showed you, and Multiple scholars shared this view and Ibn Katheer calls it Mashoor view.

No. It's not a established historical fact. http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3
Not all reports in support of other claim are weak. Mashoor and reliable are two different things. Even Imam Ibn Kathir himself is Mash'hoor but not reliable compared to other historians.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 12, 2019, 01:24:02 PM
Now this is double standard.
If you want to see what double standard or hypocrisy whatever you want to call it, then it is, calling certain thing from a Sunni Scholar as LIE, but when it is proven that the Scholar was falsely accused rather, rather you hid or chopped off the crucial words, then it becomes a MISTAKE. So when such a person is out here to accuse me doing double standard it doesn't bother me, i just say look in the mirror first.

On one hand you are defending people, who have committed major sins throughout their life, only because there is a hadith about the gald tidings. And how he got there is another story.
The problem with Haters is that they walk the path of injustice while judging people whom they hate. And we remind them to be just, by reminding those fools that, look at the other side of the coin as well in regards to life of the people whom they hate, their life is filled with major good deeds, major sacrifices for Islam, due to which they were promised Jannah. And we are reminding those sick haters the teachings of Quran.

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do} [Al-Maeda 5:8].


There is also a hadith which says eventually every muslim will entre jannah. So does it means that we should not point out anyone's mistakes or sins, because the fate of every muslim is in the end jannah. That's the major issue with ahlul sunnah and perhaps the main reason of shia-sunni rift since centuries. See Quran 4:135 and 5:8.
Now, I want to point out that the topic is being changed.

Entering Jannah EVENTUALLY and Entering Jannah directly has a difference. How is it different? See the example of a Badri Sahabi who committed a Major sin, yet Prophet(S) didn't  didn't apply punishment on him, citing the reason of him being a Badri Sahabi and having special virtue. Now you cannot pick a general report and start equating it with the specific virtue mentioned about Badri Sahaba. Nor does a general report undermine the status of specific virtue mentioned about Badri Sahaba.

And you think Engr. Mirza is alone is this thing. Youtube is full of the lies of almost every present day scholar from every school of thought. Big liars and deviated people are actually those who are following and defending fairy tales, super natural things etc.
I don't trust on what you say, because you yourself have lost your trustworthiness. And i disagree with you, there are scholars who on youtube who are honest and trustworthy. But yes they make mistakes, but the problem with some Zanadiqa is that, they try to equate mistakes with lies. Lying is a different thing and being mistaken is a different thing.

I am not his regular listner or a die hard fan, neither of ummayds, and I do not agree with him in whatever he says. He has his own shortcomings but his most of the stuff is based on only primary sunni books unlike many others.
If someone mixes little poison in one part in a Biryani plate and serves people, my recommendation would be to avoid all of it. I agree he goes mention some truthful things but the problem is his mixing lies, which lay people can't figure out. And this was what the other heretics like Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani used to do as well, even he used to mix truth with lies.

Please quote his other major lies and blunders, I will email him and see how he responds, as he often says he is open to critisism. Lets see.
I'm planning to make a video collecting all his LIES not mistakes, and compiling into one video. So, do one thing send him this lie of his, if he apologizes then I'll share others to you so that he apologizes for all, if he doesn't then he deserves to be exposed and called a liar.


No. It's not a established historical fact. http://muslimscholars.info/manage.php?submit=scholar&ID=3
Not all reports in support of other claim are weak. Mashoor and reliable are two different things. Even Imam Ibn Kathir himself is Mash'hoor but not reliable compared to other historians.
What do you mean "not reliable compared to other historians"? Actually you are a nobody and untrustworthy, keep this in mind. While Imam Ibn Katheer is highly trustworthy scholar. And when you have an authentic report from a SAHABI showing that Umar(RA) was stabbed on 26th Dhul hijjah and died 3 days later, then that is superior to any later Scholars disagreement with it.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: fgss on September 12, 2019, 07:06:26 PM
If you want to see what double standard or hypocrisy whatever you want to call it, then it is, calling certain thing from a Sunni Scholar as LIE, but when it is proven that the Scholar was falsely accused rather, rather you hid or chopped off the crucial words, then it becomes a MISTAKE. So when such a person is out here to accuse me doing double standard it doesn't bother me, i just say look in the mirror first.
 The problem with Haters is that they walk the path of injustice while judging people whom they hate. And we remind them to be just, by reminding those fools that, look at the other side of the coin as well in regards to life of the people whom they hate, their life is filled with major good deeds, major sacrifices for Islam, due to which they were promised Jannah. And we are reminding those sick haters the teachings of Quran.

O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah and be just witnesses and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety, and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Well-Acquainted with what you do} [Al-Maeda 5:8].

Now, I want to point out that the topic is being changed.

Entering Jannah EVENTUALLY and Entering Jannah directly has a difference. How is it different? See the example of a Badri Sahabi who committed a Major sin, yet Prophet(S) didn't  didn't apply punishment on him, citing the reason of him being a Badri Sahabi and having special virtue. Now you cannot pick a general report and start equating it with the specific virtue mentioned about Badri Sahaba. Nor does a general report undermine the status of specific virtue mentioned about Badri Sahaba.
 I don't trust on what you say, because you yourself have lost your trustworthiness. And i disagree with you, there are scholars who on youtube who are honest and trustworthy. But yes they make mistakes, but the problem with some Zanadiqa is that, they try to equate mistakes with lies. Lying is a different thing and being mistaken is a different thing.
 If someone mixes little poison in one part in a Biryani plate and serves people, my recommendation would be to avoid all of it. I agree he goes mention some truthful things but the problem is his mixing lies, which lay people can't figure out. And this was what the other heretics like Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani used to do as well, even he used to mix truth with lies.
I'm planning to make a video collecting all his LIES not mistakes, and compiling into one video. So, do one thing send him this lie of his, if he apologizes then I'll share others to you so that he apologizes for all, if he doesn't then he deserves to be exposed and called a liar.

What do you mean "not reliable compared to other historians"? Actually you are a nobody and untrustworthy, keep this in mind. While Imam Ibn Katheer is highly trustworthy scholar. And when you have an authentic report from a SAHABI showing that Umar(RA) was stabbed on 26th Dhul hijjah and died 3 days later, then that is superior to any later Scholars disagreement with it.

(1) I was referring here to only one person. Its not like that I hate all or many sahabah.

And even I am not his hater (May Allah be pleased with him) but also not his fan because of the things he had committed and the damage he had done to the system of government, and the list is big.

Issue is not the love or hate but the justice. Don't only show the world one side of a coin and sugar coat the other.

This reminder is for everyone. Quran 4:135 and 5:8.

(2) There is no comparison between the Badri Sahabi and the one who accepted Islam only because of his father after conquest of Makkah. Later he became the Katib only on request by his father. Its not like that Prophet himself wanted him to. No personal attack just showing what is mentioned in reports.

(3) Alone on YouTube there are many videos of scholars exposing the lies and distortions of each other. Brelvi exposing deobandi and vice versa, Ahle hadith exposing brelvi and vice versa and so on. They have also written books against each other both in the past and present.

(4) Few days ago I heard a shii scholar who gave the same example of poison with a different food. And don't forget  Ghulam Ahmed Qadiani was a Sufi Sunni initially and he claimed the same things which are written in classical sufi books. But the thing is that he got exposed badly.

(5) I have sent him and meanwhile you should start making video on him. I really want to know how much he had lied.

(6) Yes I am nobody. A liar as well. And I will never forget that.

"not reliable compared to other historians"?

By this I mean compared to other past historians, Imam Ibn Kathir's work is less reliable.

And you are ignoring other reports and views of other scholars and saying it a established fact. Anyways if he was stabbed on 26th dhil hijjah and died three days later. That means he died on 29th dhil hijjah and if we count including 26th then died on 28th dhil hijjah.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 12, 2019, 07:56:01 PM
Don't only show the world one side of a coin and sugar coat the other.
I say the same, don’t be a hypocrite in hatred of someone. Mentioning the fate of someone proven from authentic hadeeth is something people should see a final judgement, to end their personal opinions about someone.

And not discussing what occurred between Sahaba, is from the view of the Salaf of Ahlusunnah, so some recent frauds n deviants hold no value if they try to fool people in discussing and passing judgement upon Sahaba.


(2) There is no comparison between the Badri Sahabi
Again a failed attempt to derail the topic. Be consistent. The mention of Badri Sahaba was just to show the implementation of a hadeeth, when it’s mentioning the virtue of a specific group in comparison to general reports.


(3) Alone on YouTube there are many videos of scholars exposing the lies and distortions of each other. Brelvi exposing deobandi and vice versa, Ahle hadith exposing brelvi and vice versa and so on. They have also written books against each other both in the past and present.
Exposing each other doesn’t mean lying on each other. If that’s the case then Ahle hadeeth, Barelwis, deobandis, Jamat Islami, Mirzais(followers of Ali Mirza), Itna Asharis, etc all are liars because they all expose each other.

So where do you belong? Do you expose anyone, or don’t any expose you ? Because by that standard even you are liar.

(5) I have sent him and meanwhile you should start making video on him. I really want to know how much he had lied.
InshaAllah


"not reliable compared to other historians"?

By this I mean compared to other past historians, Imam Ibn Kathir's work is less reliable.
Here the talk isn’t about his work, here is talk is about his opinion. His opinion carries a lot of weight since he is extremely trustworthy scholar.


And you are ignoring other reports and views of other scholars and saying it a established fact. Anyways if he was stabbed on 26th dhil hijjah and died three days later. That means he died on 29th dhil hijjah and if we count including 26th then died on 28th dhil hijjah.
i never ignored Infact you misunderstood the views of certain scholars which I clarified. Again had you watched the videos properly you won’t have made this silly argument. The scholar who said umar(r) died on 1st Muharram clearly explained it. Three days later from 26th would be 1st Muharram because the month was 29 days , and In lunar calendar date changes after sunset not after midnight. So it was 1st of Muharram night when he died , that’s why Dhahabi said he was buried on 1st Muharram.
Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: fgss on September 13, 2019, 09:54:15 AM
I say the same, don’t be a hypocrite in hatred of someone. Mentioning the fate of someone proven from authentic hadeeth is something people should see a final judgement, to end their personal opinions about someone.

And not discussing what occurred between Sahaba, is from the view of the Salaf of Ahlusunnah, so some recent frauds n deviants hold no value if they try to fool people in discussing and passing judgement upon Sahaba.


Exposing each other doesn’t mean lying on each other. If that’s the case then Ahle hadeeth, Barelwis, deobandis, Jamat Islami, Mirzais(followers of Ali Mirza), Itna Asharis, etc all are liars because they all expose each other.

So where do you belong? Do you expose anyone, or don’t any expose you ? Because by that standard even you are liar.

 (1) Quoting an authentic hadith about someone is not a personal opinion. Both hadith and history books are full of such ahadith. And those who mention his shortcomings also believe his fate is in jannah.

For example if one won't study what happened at Yemen then how one can understand the true message of ghadir.

Likewise, then we should also not discuss about the mistakes of Prophet Adam a.s as mentioned in the Quran because of the same rule.

But the Quran says all such events are for your learning.


(2) Each side often says when others are exposing us they are either lying about us or mis-quoting our books. Which may or may not be true.


Title: Re: When Umar RA really died v
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on September 13, 2019, 11:39:33 AM
(1) Quoting an authentic hadith about someone is not a personal opinion. Both hadith and history books are full of such ahadith. And those who mention his shortcomings also believe his fate is in jannah.
It's from the Usool of Ahlus-sunnah that disputes of Sahaba shouldn't be discussed, esp before lay people. Pick the classical books on Aqeedah of Ahlus-sunnah and you'll find it. And I have seen those who discuss the shortcomings of Sahaba that they start using double standards, since they have an agenda. Like they can't survive until they use weak and unreliable reports when they discuss about these matters, but NO they dont tell the audience that what they are using are weak reports, yet when a virtue of Muawiya(RA) is mentioned they are hell-bent in weakening reports by again using unproven statements of some Muhadditheen.


Likewise, then we should also not discuss about the mistakes of Prophet Adam a.s as mentioned in the Quran because of the same rule.

But the Quran says all such events are for your learning.
The point is no one with slightest Emaan would start being Judgemental over the Mistakes of Prophets mentioned in Quran, no one will dare to say, Humanity came out of Jannah due to Adam(as), or that Adam(as) is responsible for the loss Humanity faced, etc. But the frauds who mentioned the shortcomings of certain Sahaba they are pretty judgement, they pass on comments on the incidents like, Ummah is facing problems due to this, they start making conspiracy theories, etc etc, which displays their hatred for those Sahaba.

And if you want to expose the hypocrisy of those people who want to discuss mistakes of certain Sahaba, tell them to be fair and discuss the mistakes of Ali(RA) too as mentioned authentic reports, they'll start issuing Fatwa's of Nasibism etc, so clear it's an agenda to target and malign only a few Sahaba, which needs to be refuted.

(2) Each side often says when others are exposing us they are either lying about us or mis-quoting our books. Which may or may not be true.
Exactly, So one would be correct in their claim and may not. Like how I gave you the evidence and asked whether Mirza is lied, You affirmed. But then you attack a scholar that he lied in the video, which was a false allegation and it turned out to be your lie. [I called it a lie because you called the same thing from the Scholar as lie]