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How did Al-Hussain save Islam?

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Hani

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2017, 01:22:15 AM »
We're going in absolute circles here. The question has been repeatedly asked and repeatedly answered. This thread ain't going anywhere like the previous one.

No circles, no answer.

You guys aren't giving answers, we ask "How was Islam saved by this rebellion?"

You guys reply "Husayn stood up against the tyranny of Yazid."

Great, we all know he stood up and rebelled, HOW DID IT SAVE ISLAM!?

Were people over-joyed by Yazid's leadership for example? No they weren't, people actually criticized Mu`awiyah for appointing Yazid and this was before Husayn's rebellion. A ton of other personalities had issues with Yazid being in this position before this rebellion.

Have people become more religious after this rebellion? No evidence suggests this. Were people following certain practices, then they changed their Fiqhi views after the rebellion? No evidence of any of it.
عَلامَةُ أَهْلِ الْبِدَعِ الْوَقِيعَةُ فِي أَهْلِ الأَثَرِ. وَعَلامَةُ الْجَهْمِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُشَبِّهَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الْقَدَرِيَّةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ السُّنَّةِ مُجَبِّرَةً. وَعَلامَةُ الزَّنَادِقَةِ أَنْ يُسَمُّوا أَهْلَ الأَثَرِ حَشْوِيَّةً

Religion = simple & clear

wannabe

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2017, 05:19:44 AM »
I believe he attempted to save Islam .......
imam ali bin hussin replied "it was to save islam" to yazid's allegation that it was just a waste of life. people were wondering how islam was saved?
when the time came for azan and the muazzin called "i bear witness that Muhamad is the messenger of Allah", imam ali bin hussin said "this is the way islam was saved".
how to understand this?
maybe, understanding the second part of hadith "hussein is from me and i am from hussein" can shed some light.
Allahu a'lam.

Hadrami

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2017, 06:41:29 AM »
there were many more companions with higher status than husayn ra who died fighting for Islam and yet no shia will ever say that their martyrdom was acts which saved Islam. Many companions were martyred fighting the hypocrites & apostates, their sacrifice saved a young islamic nation in from being completelly destroyed. Those acts were of much greater significance in saving the future of Islam, or what about the battle of Badr & other battles of early Islam? Islam was corrupted since day 1 according to you, so why then imam decided to save Islam decades later if it was really about saving Islam? Shia narrative is just to weak to stand any scrutiny. Too much contradiction.

iceman

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2017, 11:47:41 AM »
We're going in absolute circles here. The question has been repeatedly asked and repeatedly answered. This thread ain't going anywhere like the previous one.

No circles, no answer.

You guys aren't giving answers, we ask "How was Islam saved by this rebellion?"

You guys reply "Husayn stood up against the tyranny of Yazid."

Great, we all know he stood up and rebelled, HOW DID IT SAVE ISLAM!?

Were people over-joyed by Yazid's leadership for example? No they weren't, people actually criticized Mu`awiyah for appointing Yazid and this was before Husayn's rebellion. A ton of other personalities had issues with Yazid being in this position before this rebellion.

Have people become more religious after this rebellion? No evidence suggests this. Were people following certain practices, then they changed their Fiqhi views after the rebellion? No evidence of any of it.

Like I said I don't want to keep repeating myself. Take a look at the thread Farid closed down. It's all there, unless you want me to repeat it again.

The sixth Khalifa of the Muslims, Yazeed ibne Moawiya, wanted Hussein to give allegiance to him. Hussein refused and I told you why.

Refer to the previous thread why Hussein's allegiance was so important for Yazeed and why it was so important for Hussein to refuse.

You and some others consider this as a very horrible and terrible tragedy. It was mass murder or I don't know how you see it. But the fact is that this tragedy wasn't committed by Yazeed, oh no. It was actually committed by the sixth reigning Khalifa of the Muslims. It was committed by the Muslim army on the orders of the Muslim government. Basically on the orders of your Khilafat which you so rightly believe in.

Moawiya chose and appointed his own successor and because he (Yazeed) turned out to be a bad dude you probably would reject the concept of consultation (Shura) here, although Moawiya was advised by his administration (close advisors) and people accepted Yazeed. Otherwise you would see a rebellion if not a revolution. Only some opposed.

Where as Abu Bakr did exactly the same thing what Moawiya did and that is chose and appointed his successor (Omar). And since Omar was a good dude, compared to Yazeed) and a close companion and relative of the Prophet (s) you bring in consultation (Shura) here and turn a blind eye to the matter.

So what exactly is Consultation (shura) and what are the circumstances and conditions concerning it? How is shura conducted? Surely it must have a method a procedure. All these things/issues are extremely important and connected to each other, one way or another. We need to discuss them but with an open mind to understand and to get to know the other.

Farid

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2017, 12:01:58 PM »
Eh? What does the system of appointment have to do with saving Islam? Inheriting rule still goes on today.

iceman

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2017, 12:08:36 PM »
You're not well and things start getting from bad to worse and then even worse. Either due to you thinking differently or because of you being careless or irresponsible or not being bothered or not taking things seriously and just taking them as they come along. 

First you need to understand and get to know the illness through diagnose. Once you do then you think of treatment and how it should be implemented. But things do take time. Be it a medical course which you have to complete and precautionary advice that you are given along with it which you have to adhere to get the desired result or an operation that you have to go through followed by medication and rest.

On top of all this a lot of other things are considered as your diet and activity. Which things you have to have and do and which to refrain from. But things take time and sometimes even longer to get back to normal or getting the desired result, getting rid of the illness/disease. You can't expect a miracle over night.

The same was the situation after the death of the Messenger (s) all the way up till Karbala. Sacrifice of Hussein and yes a lot of others. He wasn't alone and there were others who perished alongside him. And yes there were others who also tried. Things take time. For example from Karbala up till now is the belief and support for Hussein increasing or decreasing? Is YA HUSSEIN increasing or decreasing. We're getting there.

But right from day one we have people who got into authority and gained power who are working against it. We do have satanic sources who are working against this. Where there is good (YA HUSSEIN) there is also evil in different groups and according to different names. And today it is Isil or Isis and many others with different names.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2017, 12:59:24 PM »
^^ The above is a typical shia answer when asked a simple question. Always beating round the bush & writing a long essay that begins with something like: 'first we need to understand so & so & look at the 100 themes etc' or 'i will answer from another angle' etc.

Be concise. ONE PARAGRAPH should suffice.

No need for an essay about doctors & diagnosis or ISIS today.




zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2017, 01:09:50 PM »
Just like the son of Zubayr & grandson of Abu Bakr, Abullah Ibn Zubayr, Husayn was brave. He sacrificied his life for a cause. It was a noble cause. However, like ibn Zubayr's martydrom, it did not save Islam.
Islam never even perished. A bad ruler doesn't wipe out Islam. If that was the case then the absent 12th Imam is the worst ruler ever & rather than this absent Imam saving Islam we need a Husayn today to save Islam from this ruler today.

Give me a bad ruler who instills some order in the lands over an absent useless leader in hiding.

Lets get a concise short summary of where we are upto here on how Husayn saved Islam.

So far I can only see:

He fought evil an evil ruler but that ruler still remained in power.
This is very noble & husayn no doubt acheived his status as the youth shaheed of paradise.
But fighting an evil ruler does not answer how he saved Islam.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 01:12:00 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

iceman

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2017, 01:18:36 PM »
^^ The above is a typical shia answer when asked a simple question. Always beating round the bush & writing a long essay that begins with something like: 'first we need to understand so & so & look at the 100 themes etc' or 'i will answer from another angle' etc.

Be concise. ONE PARAGRAPH should suffice.

No need for an essay about doctors & diagnosis or ISIS today.

Your response shows arrogance and ignorance. Definitely not an intelligent and intellectual response that I was looking for. Jahalat!

iceman

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2017, 01:21:04 PM »
Just like the son of Zubayr & grandson of Abu Bakr, Abullah Ibn Zubayr, Husayn was brave. He sacrificied his life for a cause. It was a noble cause. However, like ibn Zubayr's martydrom, it did not save Islam.
Islam never even perished. A bad ruler doesn't wipe out Islam. If that was the case then the absent 12th Imam is the worst ruler ever & rather than this absent Imam saving Islam we need a Husayn today to save Islam from this ruler today.

Give me a bad ruler who instills some order in the lands over an absent useless leader in hiding.

Lets get a concise short summary of where we are upto here on how Husayn saved Islam.

So far I can only see:

He fought evil an evil ruler but that ruler still remained in power.
This is very noble & husayn no doubt acheived his status as the youth shaheed of paradise.
But fighting an evil ruler does not answer how he saved Islam.

Carry on running around in circles and beating around the bush. YA HUSSEIN!

Noor-us-Sunnah

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2017, 01:59:36 PM »
I'm still waiting for some sort of rational answer for the question asked. Still no Shia has been able to provide an rational and direct answer to the question asked, so that we could agree or disagree with it. We have got no answer till now, all what we have are non-sensical and stupid philosophies to avoid a direct and straight answer for the question.

Ijtaba

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2017, 02:14:47 PM »
You can't say "I believe all his actions saved Islam" that's a cop-out. You have to tell us what needed saving in Islam and how it was saved during Karbala'?

I see it as a personal victory for Husayn for he's going to heaven as promised. I see it as a loss and defeat for Muslims and Islam. When we lose a great man and unique personality, that's a loss for us not a victory. If that's the Shia definition of victory then I'd rather be defeated, a few more "victories" like these and we'd be down the gutter.

First of all, let me give you our (i.e. Shia) understanding of the Infallibles (a.s) so that it may be easy to understand what does it mean when we Shias say that our Aimmah (a.s) saved Islam.

- We Shias believe that Infallibles (a.s) are superior to fallibles.

By this I mean that an Infallible (a.s) stays in his home locked in his room and at the same time there are groups of Muslims. One group of Muslims is busy in their daily worship i.e. they are known for their excessively offering Salat and observing of fasts and simple living that their bodies have become very lean and thin, another group is known for giving excessive amounts of Zakat and Charities and performing many Hajjs as well as excessively helping poor people, third group of Muslims is busy day & night in giving Dawat of Islam to non-Muslims, fourth group is busy fighting enemies of Islam and spreading Islam across the globe by conquering their lands and imposing Shariah on those lands. Yet we Shias would still consider that Infallible (a.s) to be above and superior to all groups of Muslims

- We Shias believe that All actions of all Infallibles (a.s) save Islam

Actions of all Infallibles (a.s) save Islam but their actions may differ. For e.g.

01. Imam Ali (a.s) felt sad that he wasn't consulted when the matter of Caliphate was being decided because he felt he had a share in the matter due to his kinship with the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.w), but that it had been decided without consulting him, and he was upset with that. However he did not listen to any malicious & evil-minded individual to rebel against Abu Bakr and snatch Caliphate away from him. Imam Ali (a.s) remained patient and thus saved Islam by avoiding any conflict and discord within Muslim Ummah which would had led to Great Fitna and Fasad.

02. Imam Hassan (a.s) made peace treaty with Muawiyah and saved Islam by reconciling two great groups of Muslims.

03. Imam Hussain (a.s) saved Islam by sacrificing his (a.s) life and lives of his family (a.s) in land of Karbala and did not pledge oath of allegiance to Yazid.

04. Imam Ali (a.s) ibn Hussain (a.s) and other Aimmah (a.s) saved Islam by not rebelling against rulers of their time and thus avoiding conflict and discord within Muslim Ummah.

05. Our Present Imam (a.s) is in Ghaybat and is saving Islam.


You may disagree with the views given above and find them illogical, irrational, weird and/or nonsensical but this is what we believe.

I believe people can not thrust or force their beliefs on others belaboring their minds to try to make them accept their point of view. It is better to have a dialogue in respectful manner without insulting others as insulting and being disrespectful to others would lead to pointless arguments. Pointless arguments have nothing to do with subject matter and everything to do with the other person. Opposing views should be tolerated with respect.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 02:21:12 PM by Ijtaba »

wannabe

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2017, 03:43:27 PM »
imam ali bin hussin replied "it was to save islam" to yazid's allegation that it was just a waste of life. people were wondering how islam was saved?
when the time came for azan and the muazzin called "i bear witness that Muhamad is the messenger of Allah", imam ali bin hussin said "this is the way islam was saved".
how to understand this?
maybe, understanding the second part of hadith "hussein is from me and i am from hussein" can shed some light.
Allahu a'lam.
it saves islam from being a slave to yazid and all following ruling kings of islam after him.
the reality is that, after the event of karbala, political power no longer represents religious authority.
I just thought i'd make a point...

Link

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2017, 04:06:09 PM »
imam ali bin hussin replied "it was to save islam" to yazid's allegation that it was just a waste of life. people were wondering how islam was saved?
when the time came for azan and the muazzin called "i bear witness that Muhamad is the messenger of Allah", imam ali bin hussin said "this is the way islam was saved".
how to understand this?
maybe, understanding the second part of hadith "hussein is from me and i am from hussein" can shed some light.
Allahu a'lam.
it saves islam from being a slave to yazid and all following ruling kings of islam after him.
the reality is that, after the event of karbala, political power no longer represents religious authority.
I just thought i'd make a point...

Islam being saved from "fearing" Tyrants is true, Hussain (as) inspired courage.

But Islam is also not submitting to any guidance but that of God's guidance which means coming to his door and not from the back door like a Theif.

It wasn't that the clergy of Jews and Christians didn't teach "good" commands and "wisdoms" that the Quran said they would not benefit the people at all,  it is because they mix with truth falsehood and are too arrogant to change their ways and their egos are more important to them than really getting people to follow God.

And Quran has not devoted on verse to refuting purely political power. Even in the talk of Talut, it was to show the Chiefs people have taken as chiefs, were not fit for leadership let alone political power.

And Pharoah was not purely political, he claimed to be god, incarnation of all gods, etc....

We believe in the Jibt and Taghut as much as any other people, we just trick ourselves that by going by the same algorithm of all misguided communities, we somehow are guided even though we are doing the exact same thing that is volatile and is not a safe route for society to take.



Love of the family of Yaseen is the light of the heavens and the earth.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2017, 04:30:31 PM »




Your response shows arrogance and ignorance. Definitely not an intelligent and intellectual response that I was looking for. Jahalat!

Nothing here to reply to

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2017, 04:32:29 PM »





Carry on running around in circles and beating around the bush. YA HUSSEIN!

Another meaningless post.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2017, 04:36:48 PM »

First of all, let me give you our (i.e. Shia) understanding of the Infallibles (a.s) so that it may be easy to understand what does it mean when we Shias say that our Aimmah (a.s) saved Islam.


Here we go...perfect example of a how a shia reply starts, thats going to give a philosophical boring essay, without a simple answer.

zaid_ibn_ali

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2017, 04:41:25 PM »

it saves islam from being a slave to yazid and all following ruling kings of islam after him.
the reality is that, after the event of karbala, political power no longer represents religious authority.
I just thought i'd make a point...

At least you gave simple one paragraph answer.
Problem with your answer is that according to your logic either the first 3 caliphs were good rulers, as was muawiya, or Ali, Hasan & Husayn were slaves to these rulers.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 04:42:34 PM by zaid_ibn_ali »

iceman

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2017, 11:27:45 PM »
The question and concerns related to it has been  answered in great detail and depth. It is not our job to satisfy a handful of mind set individuals.

Farid

Re: How did Al-Hussain save Islam?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2017, 12:02:54 AM »
@ Ijtaba:
Quote
05. Our Present Imam (a.s) is in Ghaybat and is saving Islam.

I guess your standards of what one must do to save Islam are pretty low...

I expected more from you Ijtaba.

 

 

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