Did the Sahabah All Fight Each Other?

[Cherub786]

"If you say no, then how was it valid for sayyidina Hasan RA to have this office? Do you recognize the authority of sayyidina Hasan RA as the fifth caliph?"

First of all we need to understand what Imamah is. A messengers job is to deliver and spread the message. The Imams job is to protect and defend that message.

We need to acknowledge that the message wasn't under threat by Muawiya or his reign

"We need to acknowledge that the message wasn't under threat by Muawiya or his reign" <<golden words

That is in fact the position of Ahlus Sunnah. It seems you have departed considerably from the Twelver madhhab.
The Twelvers curse Muawiya and say he was a usurper like Abi Bakr and Umar رضى الله عنهما. But you have said that none of these gentlemen threatened the message of Islam.

Then in your view, were the wars of sayyidina Ali RA wars for secular power and not religious in nature?

othewise Hassan's stance would have been different. The same thing is that what happened at Saqifa and how the coincidental and immature decision was made and forced upon people didn't threaten the message otherwise Ali's stance would have been different.

ditto

But for Abu Bakr, Umar, Muawiya etc it was about the title and position of Caliphatul Muslimeen and not about the message.

Exactly. So again, you have departed from the Twelver madhhab. Otherwise you are admitting it is a dispute over secular authority and a dispute over Dunya not Deen.

YES we do recognise that Hassan was the 5th Caliph of the Muslims. That's what history says and tells you. According to history Yazeed was the 7th Caliph of the Muslims whether you like it or not.

Now we come to the point. It is true that historically Yazid was the ruler of the Muslims. But most Sunnis and Shia agree that his rule was invalid, he was a usurper and it was correct to revolt against him, as sayyidina Husayn and Ibn Zubayr رضى الله عنهم did. But you have compared it to the caliphate of Hasan رضى الله عنه. So are you saying the caliphate of Hasan was just a historical reality but it has no validity because the caliphate is a manmade institution and a bid'a according to you? Or do you say Hasan RA was right to accept the caliphate because it was his right anyways.
The Twelvers say that Hasan and Ali RA were justified in accepting the caliphate based on Shura because it was their right anyways to rule by divine appointment. But now you are saying the entire institution is manmade yet as long as it doesnt oppose the Message it is a valid institution?
You're statements are full of confusion and self-contradiction.

"If you say yes, then you have contradicted your own principle that any office which is not divinely appointed is invalid."

NO I haven't. There is no contradiction when you have Deen and Duniya. Is there a contradiction when you say and mention Deen and Duniya? NO there isn't. There is also no contradiction when you mention religious authority and authority of the people.

Answer this: is the authority in Dunya of the caliphate created by Saqifa valid or invalid? Simple question.
If it is invalid (as per Twelver madhhab) why did Ali and Hasan RA themselves accept their nomination to that invalid office?

If it is valid, why do you attack Saqifa and attack Sunnism?

"You will also have to recognize the legitimacy of the 3 caliphates (Abu Bakr's, Umar's and Uthman's رضى الله عنهم)."

😊 Ah, LEGITIMACY is totally a different thing. What is the meaning of legitimacy?

Legitimacy, i.e. validity. For example, is the authority of Bashar al-Assad over Syria legitimate according to you?
If no, then, as per the orthodox Twelver madhhab, that is because the authority to rule people cannot be valid unless it is exercised by an Infallible, or (according to Wilayat al-Faqih) a deputy who rules in the name of an infallible.

If yes, then why isn't the caliphate created by Saqifa not legitimate and valid also? If it is valid, then what is your objection to Saqifa and Sunnism?

[Ebn Hussein]

No. It's an exaggerated unsubstituted Rafidi claim, it's quite the opposite:

https://gift2shias.com/2013/08/18/most-sahaba-did-not-participated-in-the-fitnah-jamalsiffeen/

[Khaled]

"Since you've gone into occultation as usual"

Be it taunts or tantrums, absurd attitude or insulting remarks, I'm use to this from your side. 😊 No sweat here, carry on as usual. Well what can I say, if you're going to continue as MR RIGHT and MR TRUTH and with such attitude and beahaviour then it's not much of discussion then, is it?

As far as me insulting with "absurd attitude" (lol what?) it is because you have shown time and time again that you are a disrespectful person.  I tried to chalk up your disrespect to other members out of your feeling of defensiveness, but when I tried to come at you with respect, you came back at me with smiley faces and insults.  As far as this being "not much of a discussion"; I'm amazed you have the gall to say such a thing while simultaneously quoting my post and not addressing the content!  How you can even think any one can take you seriously after that is mind-boggling.

Agree, what you are about to say not only shows that, but it also shows you are morally bankrupt as well..."

😊 Well if that was the case then this would be a very easy and simple matter. And it isn't because if it was then why the hell are your kind spending so much money, time, effort and commitment in dealing with us and our ideology.  ☺

LOL, if you think I've spent any money on refuting 12erism, then you are as delusional as I initially thought.  If you think the brothers pay $9.95 on refuting 12erism is "spending so much money" then I'm not sure what to tell you.

And you're struggling with it. You are so desperate that you have to assemble into a pack to deal with just only one of us. You can't have a one to one or come one at a time, you question but refuse to answer, you only comment on what suits you and then we have twist and turns. What I mean by 'you' is the pack.

That's just absurdity on your part.  YOU are the one that never addresses anything said to you.  When it was shown you had NO IDEA the grading of the hadeeth we were discussing nor what al-Kulayni and other 12er scholars thought of the hadeeth, you just simply still insisted that the hadeeth was weak and that what "you guys" believe.  When you quoted my previous post, you just simply ignored all of the content and moved forward.  Lets not forget your hilarious dodging and weaving on the Mut'ah thread.

As far as more than one person refuting you, you are the only 12er that ever stuck around.  Do you think that when I post on Shiachat, I get responses to me from one person or do you think the whole site gangs up on me?  When I post refuting khawarij on Ummah forum, do you think only one person refutes me or does the whole site gang up on me?  I can't believe something like this needs to be explained to you...

"Umm.. who is "my boys"?  I consider the Dawaish to be even bigger deviants than you as I've told you time and time again"

Your focus is 100% on us. I've never seen any thread on them based on crticisism and condemnation from any of you. 😊 Care to start a thread on them when you have some free time from chasing us around all over the place 😀

My focus is 100% on 12ers because this "TwelverShia.net"; you can't possibly be this daft.  We have had this conversation multiple times and yet you keep saying "your focus is 100% on us", if that's not avoiding a discussion then I don't know what is.  Yet despite this absurd objection, look, even on this site I refuted the khawarij:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/did-ibn-taymiyyah-declare-takfir-again-the-12er-shia/

I wonder if you have in your life ever defended non-12ers like I did to 12ers in the post.  والله if you are just you will take back what you said about me.  Sad thing is, I know you will just ignore it and move on, continuing in your delusion that I am 100% focused on 12ers.

"Dawaish to be even bigger deviants than you"

We don't use means of violence and threatening behaviour just to have our demands met and cause bloodshed and mayhem to bring about the Islamic Caliphate 😀

You don't, you do it to set up the Safavid empire and defend Iran and prop up Syria.  That's why you guys are two sides of the same coin, as long as there are are 12ers and Najdis around, expect the rest of us Muslims to be oppressed and killed by you.  Will you address this?  Of course not, you will just ignore it and continue living your delusion.

The only deviants are you and them. The only difference is that you do it verbally and they do it practically 😀 You do it with verbal abuse and they do it with physical abuse 😀 Otherwise you are of the same kind and nature. You share same ideology but differ in how you do it.

I understand that my refutations are so devastating that they feel like terrorism to you; but rest assured, criticism and terrorism are not one in the same.  I don't share an ideology with them.  You share an ideology with them in your takfeer and hatred of the rest of the Ummah.  Will you address this?  Obviously not... you'll just quote it and go off an another tangent.

"Do you do the same with Bashar alAssad?  Is your support of that tyrant giving Islam a good name?

I'm in no support of any tyrant or any leader who uses heavy handed tactics on the people and public, since the death of the Prophet s.a.w and onwards. Would you share the same thought? 😊

Umm... yes I do since I denounce opressive un-Islamic regimes like Saudi, Iran and Syria and I do so by name.  Lets see you do the same...

And you speak about Iran, since the Islamic revolution in Iran, can you be honest and truthful that the international community has been fair and just with Iran, its economy and its people? Iran has been isolated and intimidated from day one not just by the western community but also by the Muslim community for it being majority Shia governed 😊

But that was my initial point wasn't it?  I agree, the reason Islam in general, and certain places like Iran in specific, have negative connotations throughout the world has been due to propaganda and a certain thing called Islamphobia, something you are very keen on spreading.  Despite my ideological differences with Iran, I actually respect the people and even the government, something I've said to you in the past.  In fact, I've also said to you that I favor Iran these days to Saudi.  Yet, you are unfortunately too sectarian to even listen to anything anyone says to you, هداك الله.

Vast majority of you, be it the Saudis or other Arabs or non Arabs, are spending so much time, effort and money to try and stop Shiaism from spreading. Take a look at this site and there are many other sites as such. We also have various groups, organisations and institutions working against Shiaism. Read history and see the propaganda against Shias from day one. It's been a constant struggle for anti Shias from the very start.

Ridiculous like all of your other claims, they are spending WAY more energy attempting to stop ANY Islamic movement they deem against their SECULAR regimes.  I admit wholeheartedly that the the Saudis wrongly imprison 12ers clerics and oppress them, but they do that ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE when dealing with other groups.  Do you have any idea how many clerics, thinkers, activists and journalists the Saudis have imprisoned and killed?  Do you live on the same planet as the rest of us?

And you keep boasting about Saqifa, I've said this before that only the heads of the Ansar gathered in Saqifa to SELECT THEIR OWN LEADER. I wonder why. And only three Muhajir quietly and secretly rushed to Saqifa to stop them. Why didn't they allow them (Ansar) to select a leader and rally around and support them.😊   

Umm.. the reasoning was because the majority of the Arabs would not have accepted an Ansari leader, its literally written in the reports?...

Saqifa wasn't a public gathering or assembly, it wasn't a public event where all parties concerned or all heads of Muslim tribes and areas, all important and concerned individuals and personalities gathered/assembled to choose and select a leader, to name and appoint the successor to Muhammad s.a.w 😊

No, it was a mistake by the Ansars that الحمدلله Abu Bakr, Omar and Abu Ubaydah rectified may Allah shower his mercy upon them and be please with them.  الحمدلله ثم الحمدلله ثم الحمدلله for their foresight!

At this point, I stop wasting my time... I guarantee you will not address anything and just move on.

However, P.S. you do know that overusing emojis like you do shows psychological problems?  Read this

https://www.2knowmyself.com/Why_some_people_use_too_many_emojis

Not only do psychologists say that people who use too many emojis "are overly emotional" as they say "The more emotionally provoked a person is the more likely they are going to use emojis to express themselves", as well as "too sensitive: People who get emotionally provoked easily are more likely to be sensitive. Emotional sensitivity can in many cases be an exaggerated emotional reaction to a normal stimuli."  They even go on to say "They have less testosterone!"  So try to imagine how people react to your posts when it looks like it is written by an over emotional 12 year old girl.

[iceman]

As far as me insulting with "absurd attitude" (lol what?) it is because you have shown time and time again that you are a disrespectful person.  I tried to chalk up your disrespect to other members out of your feeling of defensiveness, but when I tried to come at you with respect, you came back at me with smiley faces and insults.  As far as this being "not much of a discussion"; I'm amazed you have the gall to say such a thing while simultaneously quoting my post and not addressing the content!  How you can even think any one can take you seriously after that is mind-boggling.
LOL, if you think I've spent any money on refuting 12erism, then you are as delusional as I initially thought.  If you think the brothers pay $9.95 on refuting 12erism is "spending so much money" then I'm not sure what to tell you.

That's just absurdity on your part.  YOU are the one that never addresses anything said to you.  When it was shown you had NO IDEA the grading of the hadeeth we were discussing nor what al-Kulayni and other 12er scholars thought of the hadeeth, you just simply still insisted that the hadeeth was weak and that what "you guys" believe.  When you quoted my previous post, you just simply ignored all of the content and moved forward.  Lets not forget your hilarious dodging and weaving on the Mut'ah thread.

As far as more than one person refuting you, you are the only 12er that ever stuck around.  Do you think that when I post on Shiachat, I get responses to me from one person or do you think the whole site gangs up on me?  When I post refuting khawarij on Ummah forum, do you think only one person refutes me or does the whole site gang up on me?  I can't believe something like this needs to be explained to you...

My focus is 100% on 12ers because this "TwelverShia.net"; you can't possibly be this daft.  We have had this conversation multiple times and yet you keep saying "your focus is 100% on us", if that's not avoiding a discussion then I don't know what is.  Yet despite this absurd objection, look, even on this site I refuted the khawarij:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/did-ibn-taymiyyah-declare-takfir-again-the-12er-shia/

I wonder if you have in your life ever defended non-12ers like I did to 12ers in the post.  والله if you are just you will take back what you said about me.  Sad thing is, I know you will just ignore it and move on, continuing in your delusion that I am 100% focused on 12ers.

You don't, you do it to set up the Safavid empire and defend Iran and prop up Syria.  That's why you guys are two sides of the same coin, as long as there are are 12ers and Najdis around, expect the rest of us Muslims to be oppressed and killed by you.  Will you address this?  Of course not, you will just ignore it and continue living your delusion.

I understand that my refutations are so devastating that they feel like terrorism to you; but rest assured, criticism and terrorism are not one in the same.  I don't share an ideology with them.  You share an ideology with them in your takfeer and hatred of the rest of the Ummah.  Will you address this?  Obviously not... you'll just quote it and go off an another tangent.

Umm... yes I do since I denounce opressive un-Islamic regimes like Saudi, Iran and Syria and I do so by name.  Lets see you do the same...

But that was my initial point wasn't it?  I agree, the reason Islam in general, and certain places like Iran in specific, have negative connotations throughout the world has been due to propaganda and a certain thing called Islamphobia, something you are very keen on spreading.  Despite my ideological differences with Iran, I actually respect the people and even the government, something I've said to you in the past.  In fact, I've also said to you that I favor Iran these days to Saudi.  Yet, you are unfortunately too sectarian to even listen to anything anyone says to you, هداك الله.

Ridiculous like all of your other claims, they are spending WAY more energy attempting to stop ANY Islamic movement they deem against their SECULAR regimes.  I admit wholeheartedly that the the Saudis wrongly imprison 12ers clerics and oppress them, but they do that ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE when dealing with other groups.  Do you have any idea how many clerics, thinkers, activists and journalists the Saudis have imprisoned and killed?  Do you live on the same planet as the rest of us?

Umm.. the reasoning was because the majority of the Arabs would not have accepted an Ansari leader, its literally written in the reports?...

No, it was a mistake by the Ansars that الحمدلله Abu Bakr, Omar and Abu Ubaydah rectified may Allah shower his mercy upon them and be please with them.  الحمدلله ثم الحمدلله ثم الحمدلله for their foresight!

At this point, I stop wasting my time... I guarantee you will not address anything and just move on.

However, P.S. you do know that overusing emojis like you do shows psychological problems?  Read this

https://www.2knowmyself.com/Why_some_people_use_too_many_emojis

Not only do psychologists say that people who use too many emojis "are overly emotional" as they say "The more emotionally provoked a person is the more likely they are going to use emojis to express themselves", as well as "too sensitive: People who get emotionally provoked easily are more likely to be sensitive. Emotional sensitivity can in many cases be an exaggerated emotional reaction to a normal stimuli."  They even go on to say "They have less testosterone!"  So try to imagine how people react to your posts when it looks like it is written by an over emotional 12 year old girl.

Your post is full of emotional tantrums and outbursts. I don't know where to begin. Why do you take things personally. This is something I don't understand. I address absolutely everything that is put forward to me. So I don't know why I am accused of dodging and avoiding when the thread, be it which ever, is there to be seen. Once again you're the judge, the jury and the executioner. Now if you can just cut the crap out and come and bring it one at a time. What haven't I addressed, bring it forward one at a time. Just keep the nonsense out of it. I don't see any Shia coming on and saying "he hasn't answered this or addressed that so allow me to respond" then it would make sense. You accusing me of being like an over emotional 12 year old girl, come on man, I suggest you read mythbuster's posts.

"As far as me insulting with "absurd attitude" (lol what?) it is because you have shown time and time again that you are a disrespectful person"

What a load of nonsense. Disrespectful person? Do you even bother to read the crap against me just because I'm a Shia? Wake up man. What world are you living in. Have you seen the response I get, the hatred and grudge lurking in those posts?

"you came back at me with smiley faces and insults"

Really. Have you seen the response that I get especially from mythbuster and Muslim 720. That's where the smiley faces and insults are. Or do they respond normally? Have I seen a bloody word from you or any of the admins and mods regarding this? No. Why? Because I'm a Shia. Please don't give me examples from Shiachat because your behaviour lies with you.

[iceman]

As far as me insulting with "absurd attitude" (lol what?) it is because you have shown time and time again that you are a disrespectful person.  I tried to chalk up your disrespect to other members out of your feeling of defensiveness, but when I tried to come at you with respect, you came back at me with smiley faces and insults.  As far as this being "not much of a discussion"; I'm amazed you have the gall to say such a thing while simultaneously quoting my post and not addressing the content!  How you can even think any one can take you seriously after that is mind-boggling.
LOL, if you think I've spent any money on refuting 12erism, then you are as delusional as I initially thought.  If you think the brothers pay $9.95 on refuting 12erism is "spending so much money" then I'm not sure what to tell you.

That's just absurdity on your part.  YOU are the one that never addresses anything said to you.  When it was shown you had NO IDEA the grading of the hadeeth we were discussing nor what al-Kulayni and other 12er scholars thought of the hadeeth, you just simply still insisted that the hadeeth was weak and that what "you guys" believe.  When you quoted my previous post, you just simply ignored all of the content and moved forward.  Lets not forget your hilarious dodging and weaving on the Mut'ah thread.

As far as more than one person refuting you, you are the only 12er that ever stuck around.  Do you think that when I post on Shiachat, I get responses to me from one person or do you think the whole site gangs up on me?  When I post refuting khawarij on Ummah forum, do you think only one person refutes me or does the whole site gang up on me?  I can't believe something like this needs to be explained to you...

My focus is 100% on 12ers because this "TwelverShia.net"; you can't possibly be this daft.  We have had this conversation multiple times and yet you keep saying "your focus is 100% on us", if that's not avoiding a discussion then I don't know what is.  Yet despite this absurd objection, look, even on this site I refuted the khawarij:

http://forum.twelvershia.net/general-sunni-vs-shia/did-ibn-taymiyyah-declare-takfir-again-the-12er-shia/

I wonder if you have in your life ever defended non-12ers like I did to 12ers in the post.  والله if you are just you will take back what you said about me.  Sad thing is, I know you will just ignore it and move on, continuing in your delusion that I am 100% focused on 12ers.

You don't, you do it to set up the Safavid empire and defend Iran and prop up Syria.  That's why you guys are two sides of the same coin, as long as there are are 12ers and Najdis around, expect the rest of us Muslims to be oppressed and killed by you.  Will you address this?  Of course not, you will just ignore it and continue living your delusion.

I understand that my refutations are so devastating that they feel like terrorism to you; but rest assured, criticism and terrorism are not one in the same.  I don't share an ideology with them.  You share an ideology with them in your takfeer and hatred of the rest of the Ummah.  Will you address this?  Obviously not... you'll just quote it and go off an another tangent.

Umm... yes I do since I denounce opressive un-Islamic regimes like Saudi, Iran and Syria and I do so by name.  Lets see you do the same...

But that was my initial point wasn't it?  I agree, the reason Islam in general, and certain places like Iran in specific, have negative connotations throughout the world has been due to propaganda and a certain thing called Islamphobia, something you are very keen on spreading.  Despite my ideological differences with Iran, I actually respect the people and even the government, something I've said to you in the past.  In fact, I've also said to you that I favor Iran these days to Saudi.  Yet, you are unfortunately too sectarian to even listen to anything anyone says to you, هداك الله.

Ridiculous like all of your other claims, they are spending WAY more energy attempting to stop ANY Islamic movement they deem against their SECULAR regimes.  I admit wholeheartedly that the the Saudis wrongly imprison 12ers clerics and oppress them, but they do that ON A MUCH LARGER SCALE when dealing with other groups.  Do you have any idea how many clerics, thinkers, activists and journalists the Saudis have imprisoned and killed?  Do you live on the same planet as the rest of us?

Umm.. the reasoning was because the majority of the Arabs would not have accepted an Ansari leader, its literally written in the reports?...

No, it was a mistake by the Ansars that الحمدلله Abu Bakr, Omar and Abu Ubaydah rectified may Allah shower his mercy upon them and be please with them.  الحمدلله ثم الحمدلله ثم الحمدلله for their foresight!

At this point, I stop wasting my time... I guarantee you will not address anything and just move on.

However, P.S. you do know that overusing emojis like you do shows psychological problems?  Read this

https://www.2knowmyself.com/Why_some_people_use_too_many_emojis

Not only do psychologists say that people who use too many emojis "are overly emotional" as they say "The more emotionally provoked a person is the more likely they are going to use emojis to express themselves", as well as "too sensitive: People who get emotionally provoked easily are more likely to be sensitive. Emotional sensitivity can in many cases be an exaggerated emotional reaction to a normal stimuli."  They even go on to say "They have less testosterone!"  So try to imagine how people react to your posts when it looks like it is written by an over emotional 12 year old girl.

Listen, whether emotionally or not or which ever way, I can't be provoked otherwise I would have been banned long ago for reacting and responding to something just because I'm a Shia. As far as others are concerned I answer with sense and logic and reality and facts, with information and intellectually. Let me give you an example, if you ask to get to know then you won't get carried away but prople here ask to catch me out. When they don't or can't get their way then they get emotional and accuse me of provoking them.

The Mut'ah thread, I answered and addressed absolutely everything in depth and in great detail. If you're not satisfied or think I haven't answered or addressed something then please do bring it forward and point it out rather than making a circus over it just to gain weight. The propaganda against Shiaism and how Shias have been treated and are being treated history is there. You and I both know.

"At this point, I stop wasting my time... I guarantee you will not address anything and just move on"

You can try me again and I will answer and address absolutely everything in depth again. I don't have psychological problems because I don't hate or hold grudge. I'm not a propagandist or an anti this or that.

"Umm.. the reasoning was because the majority of the Arabs would not have accepted an Ansari leader, its literally written in the reports?..."

A lot of things are written and history has been distorted by leaders and those in authority among them to make themselves look right and good. How do you know majority of the Arabs would accept a leader from the Ansar? And where does your shura go when objections and restrictions where lurking from the start just by only and only three Muhajir?

Yes I do live on the same planet but you need to question others, be it members, mods or admins, why they keep banging on about Iran, Syria and Iraq only. I'll tell you why, because of Shiaism.

"Umm... yes I do since I denounce opressive un-Islamic regimes like Saudi, Iran and Syria and I do so by name.  Lets see you do the same..."

I do the same. But the difference is I don't see any website as such banging on about any Sunni regime like they bang on about Iran, Iraq and Syria.

"You share an ideology with them in your takfeer and hatred of the rest of the Ummah"

We don't, otherwise we would get along with them and not be their prime concern and target.