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Sunni Shia Discussion Forum => Sahabah-AhlulBayt => Topic started by: jibt on May 09, 2016, 01:20:12 PM

Title: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 09, 2016, 01:20:12 PM
According to both Shia and sunni recording ans narration it is proved that when Holy Prophet (saws) was ill and in last days of his life he asked for pen ans paper and in some reports ink and skin so that he can write something as a will to help Muslims not to get deviated after his death but Umar and his companions refused the command of Prophet (saws) and gave an excuse that prophet (saws) was ill and is delirious.

No coming to an event after 2 and half years we find Abu bakr on his death bed asking uthman to write the will. As he was dictating the name of his successor abu bakr became unconscious and uthman without even asking or hearing from Abu bakr wrote the name of Umar.

Why do sunnis accept a will written by some one who lived majority of his life as an idol worshiper and became unconscious and reject the command of Prophet of Allah (saws) whom Allah has protected from every mistakes and err??
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Optimus Prime on May 09, 2016, 01:47:15 PM
Welcome to the forum.

It is well documented in our literature(s) that Abu Bakr (RA) never worshipped an idol, or consumped alcohol before the advent of Islam nor after. He's the only exception actually, which is a testimony to his greatness. Something that cannot be attributed to Ali (RA) because he was only a child at the time of the first wahi.

Can, you please confirm your source where it suggests that Uthman (RA) just nilly-willy wrote down the Umar (RA) without doing ashura'.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 09, 2016, 02:00:46 PM
Brother Jibt, Are you saying that Abu bakr(RA) didn't appoint Umar(RA) as his successor? LOL
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 09, 2016, 03:04:00 PM
You both did not answer the question. But changed the topic
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Farid on May 09, 2016, 03:28:12 PM
The two cases have similarities but are not the same.

First of all, none of the Sahaba had a problem with idea of anyone writing a will.

More importantly, you pointed out that it was "Umar and his companions" that didn't want anything to be written. No where can we find Uthman in this narration. If you want to accuse someone of a double standard, then the least you could do is prove that you are talking about the same person/people.

This is like saying Shafiis and Malikis have double standards with reciting Quran behind the Imam. This cannot be considered to be a double standard since we are talking about two different groups of people.

Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Optimus Prime on May 09, 2016, 04:12:12 PM
You both did not answer the question. But changed the topic

The reason why I didn't initially answer your question is because you're mistaken. Uthman (RA) only wrote down Umar's (RA) name because he was instructed to do so. Uthman (RA) was an honourable men with the utmost integrity a human being can muster.

So, the onus was/is on you to provide a reference to prove Abu Bakr (RA) did pass out before we can offer an explanation on how the two incidents are not quite the same, therefore demonstrating there was no double standards being played in the camp of the companions.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 09, 2016, 06:40:58 PM
Did umar not say prophet is ill and talking in delirious and book of Allah is sufficient for us??
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Farid on May 09, 2016, 06:56:38 PM
Did you receive your answer about the "double standards"? Inshallah I'll respond to your next question if that is sorted out.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on May 09, 2016, 07:18:38 PM
السلام عليكم

First of all, I would love for you to change your name, it disgusts me. We know that by "Jibt" (جِبْت) you mean Sayyidna Abu-Bakr (رضي الله عنه).

Jibt (جِبْت) my dear brothers means anything that is worshipped other than Allah, which the same meaning as Taghoot (طاغوت).

Source: http://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%AC%D8%A8%D8%AA/

So basically, what the Rafidha are trying to say is that Sayyidna Abu-Bakr (رضي الله عنه) is worshipped by Ahlus-Sunnah.

There is even a book by the Rafidhi zindeeq al-Muhakkik al-Kirki (المحقق الكركي) called Nafahat al-Lahoot fi la'n el-jibt wal-taghoot (نفحات اللاهوت في لعن الجبت والطاغوت).

He is an authentic scholar authenticated by al-Hurr al-'Amily, al-Bahrani, al-Majlisi, and other Rafidhi scholars.

Change your name, I swear I was ready to take some of my time and reply to what you claimed, but your name digusted me and prevented me from doing so.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 09, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
السلام عليكم

First of all, I would love for you to change your name, it disgusts me. We know that by "Jibt" (جِبْت) you mean Sayyidna Abu-Bakr (رضي الله عنه).

Jibt (جِبْت) my dear brothers means anything that is worshipped other than Allah, which the same meaning as Taghoot (طاغوت).

Source: http://www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%AC%D8%A8%D8%AA/

So basically, what the Rafidha are trying to say is that Sayyidna Abu-Bakr (رضي الله عنه) is worshipped by Ahlus-Sunnah.

There is even a book by the Rafidhi zindeeq al-Muhakkik al-Kirki (المحقق الكركي) called Nafahat al-Lahoot fi la'n el-jibt wal-taghoot (نفحات اللاهوت في لعن الجبت والطاغوت).

He is an authentic scholar authenticated by al-Hurr al-'Amily, al-Bahrani, al-Majlisi, and other Rafidhi scholars.

Change your name, I swear I was ready to take some of my time and reply to what you claimed, but your name digusted me and prevented me from doing so.

Dont reply what is it to me.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Sheikh on May 09, 2016, 07:48:53 PM
Abu Jasim, brother, it is the same with our guest that has an avatar that says BULB. BULB is an acronym for Bar Umar Lanat Beshumar which is Persian for send infinite curses on Umar.

Isn't it amazing that this type of behavior would not be allowed on ShiaChat and yet we allow it on this website?  But Shias claim we are the intolerant ones that will ban anyone that disagrees with us. Just a bit ironic.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Ibn Yahya on May 09, 2016, 08:32:18 PM
You seem unable to understand that we don't say the Prophet couldn't name a successor. We say he just didn't. Simple as that and free of hypocrisy. Just historical fact.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 09, 2016, 08:50:46 PM
Still noone wants to answer or i think do not have.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 09, 2016, 08:54:44 PM
You seem unable to understand that we don't say the Prophet couldn't name a successor. We say he just didn't. Simple as that and free of hypocrisy. Just historical fact.

One of the most stupidest thing i have ever heard. Prophet (saws) the last prophet of Allah dies but does not appoints anyone as his successor while leaving behind millions without a guide whereas any sane and able minded person who leaves behind one of smallest of business or empire appoints his successor before dying. You people even think??
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Optimus Prime on May 09, 2016, 09:18:54 PM
Still noone wants to answer or i think do not have.

In short Uthman (RA) wrote Umar's (RA) name down because that's what he was instructed to do. This means Abu Bakr (RA) told him to do so.

You claim Abu Bakr (RA) was not concious at all. Perhaps, you can enlighten us by sharing a source of any kind to where you such an absurd claim from?

Please do as there are many brothers are itching to set the record straight.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on May 09, 2016, 09:21:19 PM
May Allah [reward] the beloved companions of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).
The ones who helped give us the Qur'an.
The ones who went to Jihad with the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).
The ones who gave up their money, social status, women and children and followed the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).
The ones who tolerated the persecution and the oppression of the polytheists and the Jews to follow the beloved Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).




EDIT BY HANI (No insults to Shia so they don't have an excuse to leave)
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 09, 2016, 09:25:30 PM

One of the most stupidest thing i have ever heard. Prophet (saws) the last prophet of Allah dies but does not appoints anyone as his successor while leaving behind millions without a guide whereas any sane and able minded person who leaves behind one of smallest of business or empire appoints his successor before dying. You people even think??

Do you think it's a business and an empire? That's a stupid thing on your part then.

He (saw) left them as they were more than capable of selecting a good man from among themselves, he (saw) believed that with Allah's guidance and success they can appoint a man pleasing to Allah and that's exactly what they did. The same way Allah left humanity without prophets as they were now more than capable of finding guidance after learning the last message. Not only did the Prophet (saw) leave them to appoint a leader, he also left them the task of collecting and guarding the Qur'an.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 09, 2016, 09:32:09 PM

One of the most stupidest thing i have ever heard. Prophet (saws) the last prophet of Allah dies but does not appoints anyone as his successor while leaving behind millions without a guide whereas any sane and able minded person who leaves behind one of smallest of business or empire appoints his successor before dying. You people even think??

Do you think it's a business and an empire? That's a stupid thing on your part then.

He (saw) left them as they were more than capable of selecting a good man from among themselves, he (saw) believed that with Allah's guidance and success they can appoint a man pleasing to Allah and that's exactly what they did. The same way Allah left humanity without prophets as they were now more than capable of finding guidance after learning the last message. Not only did the Prophet (saw) leave them to appoint a leader, he also left them the task of collecting and guarding the Qur'an.

Ok for instance let accept people were capable enough to appoint their ruler but then what exactly did abu bakr did in 2 and half year of his rule that people were so backtracked that abu bakr had to choose from them a ruler?? Something really must be wrong in his rule that people were no longer capable to select on their own.

Point to ponder.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 09, 2016, 10:14:14 PM

Ok for instance let accept people were capable enough to appoint their ruler but then what exactly did abu bakr did in 2 and half year of his rule that people were so backtracked that abu bakr had to choose from them a ruler?? Something really must be wrong in his rule that people were no longer capable to select on their own.

Point to ponder.

It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.

Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on May 09, 2016, 10:35:56 PM
May Allah [reward] the beloved companions of the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).
The ones who helped give us the Qur'an.
The ones who went to Jihad with the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).
The ones who gave up their money, social status, women and children and followed the Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).
The ones who tolerated the persecution and the oppression of the polytheists and the Jews to follow the beloved Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم).




EDIT BY HANI (No insults to Shia so they don't have an excuse to leave)

Thank you brother Hani, it's just his name, it disturbed me greatly.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 09, 2016, 10:47:50 PM
Barak-Allahu feek, we surely know what they mean by it yet our policy is to let them curse/insult but we try to avoid it ourselves as much as humanly possible.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 09, 2016, 11:22:31 PM

Ok for instance let accept people were capable enough to appoint their ruler but then what exactly did abu bakr did in 2 and half year of his rule that people were so backtracked that abu bakr had to choose from them a ruler?? Something really must be wrong in his rule that people were no longer capable to select on their own.

Point to ponder.

It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.

Once again you speak without knowing thr facts. In truth people considered and challenged the appointment of Umar.

I am still waiting for answer. All you guys are doing are changing the topic and running around the bush
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Optimus Prime on May 10, 2016, 12:23:46 AM

Ok for instance let accept people were capable enough to appoint their ruler but then what exactly did abu bakr did in 2 and half year of his rule that people were so backtracked that abu bakr had to choose from them a ruler?? Something really must be wrong in his rule that people were no longer capable to select on their own.

Point to ponder.

It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.

Once again you speak without knowing thr facts. In truth people considered and challenged the appointment of Umar.

I am still waiting for answer. All you guys are doing are changing the topic and running around the bush

Please, provide the facts that people opposed the Caliphate of Umar (RA)?

You keep side-tracking the very fact we keep reminding you of that Umar (RA) was selected based on the approval of many companions.

It is also a historical fact that Uthman (RA) did not write down Umar's (RA) name without being instructed to. You clearly refuse to believe this, so no one is going to bother to give you a serious answer unless you put forward the source to where you ascertained such an absurd notion from.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Rationalist on May 10, 2016, 01:27:03 AM


One of the most stupidest thing i have ever heard. Prophet (saws) the last prophet of Allah dies but does not appoints anyone as his successor while leaving behind millions without a guide whereas any sane and able minded person who leaves behind one of smallest of business or empire appoints his successor before dying. You people even think??
Did the 12th Imam appoint a representative before he disappeared?
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 10, 2016, 02:30:07 AM

Once again you speak without knowing thr facts. In truth people considered and challenged the appointment of Umar.

I am still waiting for answer. All you guys are doing are changing the topic and running around the bush

As I said, they asked Abu Bakr to appoint a successor, he did. They complained he was too harsh so Abu Bakr told them he believed `Umar was the best suited.

PS Khomayni never appointed a successor and your 12th Imam disappeared without successor.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Rationalist on May 10, 2016, 03:23:32 AM

PS Khomayni never appointed a successor and your 12th Imam disappeared without successor.
Actually he did. He first appointed  Montazeri. Ironically how Khameini got appointed is similar to how Abi Bakr appointed Umar.

Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hadrami on May 10, 2016, 04:10:39 AM
One of the most stupidest thing i have ever heard. Prophet (saws) the last prophet of Allah dies but does not appoints anyone as his successor while leaving behind millions without a guide whereas any sane and able minded person who leaves behind one of smallest of business or empire appoints his successor before dying. You people even think??

So i guess your Mahdi did the most stupidest thing by "leaving behind millions without a guide"??? Don't tell me he directly appoint your ayatulaat to guide you. Who did he appoint to take care of the shia while he's away?

NB: This point does not deviate from the topic.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 10, 2016, 04:41:17 AM
As usual sunnis do not have answers. Visited many forums and none could answer. So basically sunnis are ignorant just like their two lords. Lets c when sunnis can answer. Till then
Was Salam
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 10, 2016, 05:02:57 AM
If your question was "Why didn't the prophet (saw) appoint a successor by name" then we already answered that. So enough of your nonsense about nobody answering, fear Allah. The prophet (saw) taught a whole generation of pious men, these men were qualified in many fields and they were very loyal to the cause, he (saw) established the laws and instructed them to follow his example in politics and religion, he told them the rights and responsibilities of a leader as well as the subjects and he gave them clear criteria for the man who assumes leadership. All they had to do was pick a man from them who pleases Allah and his messenger, a man who fit the criteria.

Every country in existence today has a constitution and a set of laws, this constitution and these laws inform us of the criteria and qualifications that enable a man to assume authority. However, these written laws and constitutions do not declare the names of the leaders that will rule.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 10, 2016, 10:49:54 AM

Ok for instance let accept people were capable enough to appoint their ruler but then what exactly did abu bakr did in 2 and half year of his rule that people were so backtracked that abu bakr had to choose from them a ruler?? Something really must be wrong in his rule that people were no longer capable to select on their own.

Point to ponder.

It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.

Once again you speak without knowing thr facts. In truth people considered and challenged the appointment of Umar.

I am still waiting for answer. All you guys are doing are changing the topic and running around the bush

The answer is that on the request of Muslims, and after consultation with prominent Muslims, Abu bakr(AS) appointed Umar(AS) as his successor. As for challenging the appointment of Umar(AS), then no one challenged it due to the imaginary reason that Ali(AS) was appointed as Caliph. No not at all. So it doesn't serves your purpose.



وأخرج ابن عساكر عن يسار بن حمزة قال: َلمَّا َثقِ َ ل أبو بكر اشرف على النَّا ِ س من كوة
فقال: أيها النَّاس إني قد عهدت عهدًا، أفترضون به، فقال النَّاس: رضينا يا خليفة رسول الله،
فقام عليٌ فقال: لا نرضى إلا أن يكون عمر، قال: َفِإنَّهُ عُمَر، ذكر ذلك السيوطي في “تاريخ
الخلفاء”.
Ibn Asakir related that Yasar Ibn Hamzah said: When Abu Bakr got gravely ill, he appeared to people from a small window; he said to them: “O people I have decided to entrust somebody to the caliphate, are you going to accept that ?” The people said: “We accepted that O the Caliph (successor) of the Messenger of Allah.” ^Ali Ibn Abi Talib stood and said: “We will never accept other than ^Umar.” Abu Bakr said: “It will be Umar.” This was mentioned by as-Suyutiyy in the “Tarikh al-Khulafa’”.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Solomon on May 10, 2016, 12:27:16 PM


It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.
So brother,now those very people had let the sunnah of prophet(s) to go away and asked abu bakr to choose caliph.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 10, 2016, 12:33:30 PM


It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.
So brother,now those very people had let the sunnah of prophet(s) to go away and asked abu bakr to choose caliph.

Nope. It started as, Abu bakr(RA) asked them to choose a leader. But they weren't able to do so, THEN they asked Abu Bakr(RA) to choose for them.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Solomon on May 10, 2016, 01:20:55 PM



Nope. It started as, Abu bakr(RA) asked them to choose a leader. But they weren't able to do so, THEN they asked Abu Bakr(RA) to choose for them.
So prophet didn't leave that capable group of people who could elect their caliph
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 10, 2016, 02:20:30 PM
Nope. It started as, Abu bakr(RA) asked them to choose a leader. But they weren't able to do so, THEN they asked Abu Bakr(RA) to choose for them.
So prophet didn't leave that capable group of people who could elect their caliph
He(SAWS) did, but the eligible ones were so humble that when they were nominated, they would refuse and would suggest someone else. Hence, Abubakr(As) was asked to do the job for them.

Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Solomon on May 10, 2016, 02:33:36 PM
Nope. It started as, Abu bakr(RA) asked them to choose a leader. But they weren't able to do so, THEN they asked Abu Bakr(RA) to choose for them.
So prophet didn't leave that capable group of people who could elect their caliph
He(SAWS) did, but the eligible ones were so humble that when they were nominated, they would refuse and would suggest someone else. Hence, Abubakr(As) was asked to do the job for them.
So in humbleness abu bakr was less than those people?
   or
Abu bakr should have ordered that it is the sunnah of prophet(s) you must adhere and complete the election?
   
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 10, 2016, 02:38:42 PM
So in humbleness abu bakr was less than those people?
   or
Abu bakr should have ordered that it is the sunnah of prophet(s) you must adhere and complete the election?
Abu Bakr(AS) was humble, when he was nominated for Caliphate. But when it came for appointing his successor, why should he be humble? Can you elaborate?

Abu bakr(AS), did what was best for the Ummah, He did make shura which was the Sunnah of Prophet(SAWS) and Sahaba including Ali(AS) accepted it, so people who came later have no value to object it.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Solomon on May 10, 2016, 02:47:20 PM

Abu Bakr(AS) was humble, when he was nominated for Caliphate. But when it came for appointing his successor, why should he be humble? Can you elaborate?

He should have been humble as humbleness is characteristic of momin but yes your question remains why he should be humble......lol
Abu bakr(AS), did what was best for the Ummah, He did make shura which was the Sunnah of Prophet(SAWS) and Sahaba including Ali(AS) accepted it, so people who came later have no value to object it.
When prophet ordered for election then abu bakr is no one to break order of Prophet(s) and directly nominate due to being non-humble or due to any reason.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 10, 2016, 04:13:30 PM

Abu Bakr(AS) was humble, when he was nominated for Caliphate. But when it came for appointing his successor, why should he be humble? Can you elaborate?

He should have been humble as humbleness is characteristic of momin but yes your question remains why he should be humble......lol
I asked that in the context of not appointing his successor, these silly answers show that you have got no rational answer.  It's well known fact that Abu Bakr(RA) was one of the most humble Sahaba who walked on earth.


Quote
When prophet ordered for election then abu bakr is no one to break order of Prophet(s) and directly nominate due to being non-humble or due to any reason.
No, Prophet(SAWS) did not "ORDER" for election. Read Islamic History from the books of momineen(Ahlus-sunnah) since you have no idea about the correct history.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Optimus Prime on May 10, 2016, 04:29:18 PM
As usual sunnis do not have answers. Visited many forums and none could answer. So basically sunnis are ignorant just like their two lords. Lets c when sunnis can answer. Till then
Was Salam

Sweet-cheeks, you seem to be rejecting what we've reminded you time and time again.

The two examples are not quite the same because Abu Bakr (RA) designated Umar (RA) to be next leader, and the only companion by name to my knowledge who expressed concerns on behalf of some people (not disapproval) was Talha (RA). Abu Bakr (RA) told him that Umar's (RA) strictness will mellow down due to the heavy burden of leadership.

So, the onus is on you to provide the proof where Umar (RA) was selected without consultation. I am asking you for the third time now.

Please. :)
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: jibt on May 10, 2016, 10:18:40 PM
So prophet developed n made progress thus he let people choose (which is totally false and lie) then abu bakr ruled and people were backtracked and no longer could decide thus he willed for umar.

Ali (as) never considered either of them to be suitable for caliphate as made clear in sermon 3 of nahjul balagah.

Then abu bakr himself confessed he is deviated and tricked by shaitan so people shud correct him. I mean what kind of person did people appoint who could not guide himself let alone guide an entire ummah.

Umar himself was ignorant and could not solve most of the problems thus said O Allah do not put me under situation where Abul Hasan is not there or If not for Ali umar would have perished meaning made mistakes n ended in Hell.

So prophet (saws) left it for people thus people chose abu bakr even though Bani Hashim n Ansars objected his appointment.

Abu bakr chose Umar which was against Sunnah den Umar went against Abu Bakr n formed a Shura of 6 people.

Only person who was chosen by everyone was Ali (as).

Sunnis have no answer but to play with words whereas prophet (saws) never left Medina unless he chose someone as his (saws) deputy even if he (saws) was going for few days and here sunnis claim that when he (saws) was leaving for forever left the ummah without appointing anyone. Come on use some logic and brain.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Abu Jasim Al-Salafi on May 10, 2016, 10:48:36 PM
I wish I could reply to all your allegations, but your horrible name disgusts me, still can't get over this awful name you chose on this forum.

Disgusting.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 10, 2016, 11:03:02 PM
The Prophet saw departed without appointing a successor, this is a fact backed by Mutawatir narratives. The Prophet saw never said its not allowed to appoint, but he emphasyzed on the importance of consultation. Abu Bakr had the choice of either appointing or leaving the matter to them. The believers asked him to make a decision and they told him they'd accept whomever he chose, that's why there were no disputes when he picked Umar. Umar was unsure whether he should choose or not, after consultation he decided to nominate six men. Uthman was killed before anything could happen. Ali accepted to be a leader after they insisted as long as he got general acceptance in the Masjid like the three before him did. Ali decided to leave the people without appointing a successor, he refused to appoint anybody even after they insisted.

Nahj ul Balaghah is a weak chainless story book. Ali thought Abu Bakr was worthy in more than one authentic narration.

The part of Abu Bakr sermon is a part you misunderstood since you're a weirdo.

You also misunderstood Umars words and Umar also said "if it weren't for Muadh then Umar would have perished."

As opposed to what you said Ali was not chosen by everyone. The people of Syria all refused him. A lot of Sahabah did not select him or offer Bayah or obedience. Zubayr and Talhah were forced to give Bayah. All in all, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman had a lot more acceptance.

As for Abu Bakr, some of the Ansar refused to elect anyone other than their own leader Saad. The Mouhajiroun convinced the Ansar to select Abu Bakr and so they all chose him. Only banu Hashim refused to select Abu Bakr at first but then they corrected their mistake and returned to goodness. Umar was accepted by all unanimously and so was Uthman, everyone gave them Bayah.

As for the prophet saw appointing deputies during his life, it's different than appointing a successor after his death. Two different scenarios.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Rationalist on May 11, 2016, 01:00:27 AM
So prophet developed n made progress thus he let people choose (which is totally false and lie) then abu bakr ruled and people were backtracked and no longer could decide thus he willed for umar.
How can it be a lie when  Ali never told people that he was appointed at Ghadir? He never claimed he was appointed at Ghadir.

Quote
Ali (as) never considered either of them to be suitable for caliphate as made clear in sermon 3 of nahjul balagah.
But he also did not become a Calipah through the process of divine appointed. The same people gave them bayah after gave Ali the bayah to become Calipah. Also, Najh Al Balagha does not say anything about Ghadir or the divine appointment of 12 Calipahs.


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Then abu bakr himself confessed he is deviated and tricked by shaitan so people shud correct him.
Didn't Iblis trick Adam (as) who Allah (swt) appointed as Calipah?
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I mean what kind of person did people appoint who could not guide himself let alone guide an entire ummah.
The Rafidah could not even make even on of the 12 Imams into Imams. Even the 12th Imam disappeared due to their lack of support.
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Umar himself was ignorant and could not solve most of the problems thus said O Allah do not put me under situation where Abul Hasan is not there or If not for Ali umar would have perished meaning made mistakes n ended in Hell.
There are cases where Shaykh Mufid could not solve problems and the 12th imam supposedly appeared and helped him.

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Only person who was chosen by everyone was Ali (as).
But that was not through the belief that he is divinely appointed. It was through bayah as a ruler.

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Sunnis have no answer but to play with words whereas prophet (saws) never left Medina unless he chose someone as his (saws) deputy even if he (saws) was going for few days and here sunnis claim that when he (saws) was leaving for forever left the ummah without appointing anyone. Come on use some logic and brain.
That's because we don't believe anyone who divinely appointed after the Prophet (pbuh). Even 12ers they no proof that the 12 Imams were appointed as rulers of the ummah. They go as far as cursing other descendants of Fatima (sa) who claimed the Imamate.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 11, 2016, 01:52:19 AM
Ali (as) never considered either of them to be suitable for caliphate as made clear in sermon 3 of nahjul balagah.
This is actually what the irony is, the sermon 3 of Nahjul Balagha was narrated by a Khawariji as per Shia scholars,  and he was declared weak by Shia scholars. But still the Rafidah accept this crap which isn't reliable even from their standards, which proves that they are the people of desire. They don't have any standards, what suits their desires they take it, what doesn't they reject it. On the other hand Ahlus-sunnah have authentic reports from Ali(RA) who praised Abu Bakr(RA) and Umar(RA) and their Caliphate.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hadrami on May 11, 2016, 05:41:02 AM
I mean what kind of person did people appoint who could not guide himself let alone guide an entire ummah.

Looking at how Islam & Muslim were in his time, that was the shortest and yet one of the greatest time for this ummah. Can we say the same in regards to the longest running unicorn leader who is useless even for himself, if he does exist
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Solomon on May 11, 2016, 01:26:49 PM
I asked that in the context of not appointing his successor, these silly answers show that you have got no rational answer.  It's well known fact that Abu Bakr(RA) was one of the most humble Sahaba who walked on earth.
lol,silly answer ahem ahem!

No, Prophet(SAWS) did not "ORDER" for election. Read Islamic History from the books of momineen(Ahlus-sunnah) since you have no idea about the correct history.
So such election is invented one if it's not the sunnah??
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: muslim720 on May 11, 2016, 01:35:21 PM
I will just leave this here.  Nahjul Balagha, letter 6:

"Verily, the people who paid allegience to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegience to me based on the same principles as the allegience to them.  So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegience, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it.  And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar.  So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah.  If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people.  If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers.  And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him."
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Qalander Rafidhi on May 11, 2016, 01:56:03 PM
I will just leave this here.  Nahjul Balagha, letter 6:

"Verily, the people who paid allegience to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegience to me based on the same principles as the allegience to them.  So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegience, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it.  And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar.  So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah.  If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people.  If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers.  And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him."
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: muslim720 on May 11, 2016, 02:46:30 PM
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

JazakAllah khair!  However, this is another one of those sermons without an authentic chain.  The entire collection is without sanad.  Nonetheless, it is interesting to see how the same man in the same book is alleged to have said one thing only to turn around and say another a few pages later.

As far as I am concerned, Imam Ali [ra] was far too superior than to deliver a wailing sermon over an authoritative position, or "right", that was snatched from him for if there was one man who knew his right and how to claim that right, it was him.  If his son could stand up to Yazeed [la], he could have stood up to Abu Bakr [ra], Umar [ra] and Uthman [ra].  There is a reason why he did not. 

Is it possible that at some point he thought that he should have been nominated the Caliph (before the first three)?  Absolutely!  Angels are infallible and even they were taken back when Adam [as] was appointed the Caliph on earth.  But when Allah [swt] explained to them, they dropped the matter.  Imam Ali [ra], according to majority of Muslims, was fallible so it is quite understandable if he wanted the Caliphate.  However, there is a difference between wanting something and feeling Divinely entitled to it.

Those who believe in Allah's Will have put this matter to rest except the Shia.  Similarly, all angels accepted the Will of Allah [swt] - when He appointed Adam [as] as His Vicegerent on earth - except Iblees.  Do not imitate Iblees by being adamant that Caliphate or leadership belonged to Imam Ali [ra] by way of Divine Ordainment.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 11, 2016, 08:28:45 PM
I will just leave this here.  Nahjul Balagha, letter 6:

"Verily, the people who paid allegience to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman, have paid allegience to me based on the same principles as the allegience to them.  So anyone who was present has no right to go against his pledge of allegience, and anyone who was absent has no right to oppose it.  And verily shura (consultation) is only the right of the Muhajirs and the Ansar.  So if they decide upon a man and declare him their imam, then it is with the pleasure of Allah.  If anyone goes against this decision, then he must be persuaded to follow the rest of the people.  If he persists, then fight with him for leaving that which has been accepted by the believers.  And Allah shall let him wander misguided and not guide him."
http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-3-allah-son-abu-quhafah

Okay so if we combine the contents of the passage that the brother posted from Nahj-ul-Balagha and combine it with the sermon you quoted. We conclude that `Ali thought he had a right and believed he's more worthy but didn't believe he was divinely appointed nor that the matter of leadership is a divine one rather it's through Shurah and is decided by the Mouhajiroun and the Ansar.

Great.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Ibn Yahya on May 11, 2016, 09:42:49 PM
You seem unable to understand that we don't say the Prophet couldn't name a successor. We say he just didn't. Simple as that and free of hypocrisy. Just historical fact.

One of the most stupidest thing i have ever heard. Prophet (saws) the last prophet of Allah dies but does not appoints anyone as his successor while leaving behind millions without a guide whereas any sane and able minded person who leaves behind one of smallest of business or empire appoints his successor before dying. You people even think??

Why not? He made it very clear on many occassions that the Muslims should choose between Abu Bakr and 'Umar and please millions? Arabia at the time probably had a million at the most in population.

By the way he knew there would be a successor amongst the ansar and Muhajireen who are blessed according to Qur'an 9:100. Maybe you just can't grasp the idea of being trusted to make your own decisions since you need to follow a Marja'
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 11, 2016, 09:46:41 PM
Not only that, the Prophet (saw) knew exactly who would succeed him, Allah revealed to him many matters of the unseen and future events, he knew who his successor would be, he knew his nation wouldn't perish, he knew etc... Does the owner of a business know the future of his business through revelation? How can you compare a Prophet to a businessman!?
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Qalander Rafidhi on May 12, 2016, 03:59:25 AM


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Okay so if we combine the contents of the passage that the brother posted from Nahj-ul-Balagha and combine it with the sermon you quoted. We conclude that `Ali thought he had a right and believed he's more worthy but didn't believe he was divinely appointed nor that the matter of leadership is a divine one rather it's through Shurah and is decided by the Mouhajiroun and the Ansar.

Great.

Also note that he did believe himself to ve superior to Abu Bakr, otherwise there wouldn't have been this claim. You can scrap the hadith where muhammad ibn al hanafiyya (ra) is being told that Ali (as) believed himself to be lower than those two ( i.e Abu Bakr and Umar ). If he didn't believe that he was superior, then on what basis did he say that he had more right to it, or Bani Hashim in general ?
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on May 12, 2016, 10:19:59 AM
Also note that he did believe himself to ve superior to Abu Bakr, otherwise there wouldn't have been this claim. You can scrap the hadith where muhammad ibn al hanafiyya (ra) is being told that Ali (as) believed himself to be lower than those two ( i.e Abu Bakr and Umar ).
Brother its a MUTAWATTIR hadeeth that Ali(RA) believed Abu bakr(RA) and Umar(RA) to be superior than him. So comparing this with a weak sermon of Nahjul Balagha(as per shia standards) and asking to scrap a Mutawattir hadeeth is a Joke.

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If he didn't believe that he was superior, then on what basis did he say that he had more right to it, or Bani Hashim in general ?
Superiority is never the ONLY criteria to appoint a Ruler. We have the examples of Rulers under whose rulership there were Prophets. Or in other words, there was Prophet present but still Allah appointed a normal man a Ruler or King over people.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Solomon on May 12, 2016, 02:47:56 PM


It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.
So brother,now those very people had let the sunnah of prophet(s) to go away and asked abu bakr to choose caliph  after knowing it is sunnah of prophet to form a council and then elect?
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 12, 2016, 03:03:30 PM



Also note that he did believe himself to ve superior to Abu Bakr, otherwise there wouldn't have been this claim. You can scrap the hadith where muhammad ibn al hanafiyya (ra) is being told that Ali (as) believed himself to be lower than those two ( i.e Abu Bakr and Umar ). If he didn't believe that he was superior, then on what basis did he say that he had more right to it, or Bani Hashim in general ?

Oh easy question, I can reconcile all of that for you.

He didn't believe he was divinely chosen as per his sermon. He also believed he had more claim to the position of successor since he's a blood relative of the Prophet (saw) even though he admits Abu Bakr is better than him yet he feels leadership is his right through blood relation and closeness to the Messenger (saw).
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 12, 2016, 03:07:29 PM


It is historically recorded that Abu Bakr only chose `Umar because the people asked him to pick a leader and insisted on him.
So brother,now those very people had let the sunnah of prophet(s) to go away and asked abu bakr to choose caliph  after knowing it is sunnah of prophet to form a council and then elect?


The Prophet (saw) left us the choice of how a leader  is chosen as long as it's by mutual consultation. So no, they didn't leave the Sunnah.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Solomon on May 12, 2016, 03:15:53 PM


The Prophet (saw) left us the choice of how a leader  is chosen as long as it's by mutual consultation. So no, they didn't leave the Sunnah.
So is it self invented by some on basis of their derivation if this is neither sunnah nor order of prophet(s)??
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Hani on May 12, 2016, 08:58:15 PM


The Prophet (saw) left us the choice of how a leader  is chosen as long as it's by mutual consultation. So no, they didn't leave the Sunnah.
So is it self invented by some on basis of their derivation if this is neither sunnah nor order of prophet(s)??

Appointing or not appointing a leader is not a matter of religion so we may say it's an innovation or not. The Sunnah is the consultation between the Mouhajiroun and the Ansar.

If a leader decides to not appoint his successor, he can do that and tell his followers: "After I pass away, let the pious among you and those known for their merit and virtue in Islam, let them consult in the matter and choose a man pleasing to them and to Allah."

If a leader decides to appoint his successor, he must ask the people if they shall accept his final decision. If they agree then he has to call the people of piety, wisdom and good opinion among them and he has to ask them one by one whom they think is best suited. Then he picks based on this.

This leader must then act based on the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Solomon on May 13, 2016, 06:19:51 AM
If a leader decides to not appoint his successor, he can do that and tell his followers: "After I pass away, let the pious among you and those known for their merit and virtue in Islam, let them consult in the matter and choose a man pleasing to them and to Allah."

Have prophet(s) said this?
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: GreatChineseFall on May 13, 2016, 11:35:06 PM
Have prophet(s) said this?
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Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: When three are on a journey, they should appoint one of them as their commander.
If choosing a commander amongst people themselves is advised for something as simple as a journey of three men, then sure it is for more important situations
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Shia not Rafidi on August 09, 2019, 06:21:29 PM
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: When three are on a journey, they should appoint one of them as their commander.

I need the hadith numbering and grading..Never knew this
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Noor-us-Sunnah on August 09, 2019, 08:41:49 PM
I need the hadith numbering and grading..Never knew this

 Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet (ﷺ) said: When three are on a journey, they should appoint one of them as their commander. [Sunan Abi Dawud #2608] ; Grading: Hasan Sahih as per al-Albani and Weak as per Zubair Ali Za'ee.
Title: Re: Why double standard?
Post by: Shia not Rafidi on August 10, 2019, 08:25:08 AM
Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: The Prophet (ﷺ) said: When three are on a journey, they should appoint one of them as their commander. [Sunan Abi Dawud #2608] ; Grading: Hasan Sahih as per al-Albani and Weak as per Zubair Ali Za'ee.
Any similar narration would be appreciated 🙂